Utility Caster Lore Bard + Warlock 3?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, so the group I'm joining has largely inexperienced players and the last arcane user got killed off a couple of sessions ago, and the only healer in the party has a tendency to massively overheal.

So, being the experienced player that I am, I decide to roll up an arcane toolkit support with backup heals character.

Lore Bard seems like a natural choice for the role. He can bolt at least some spells from other lists onto his own, and his own list really isn't that bad to begin with. But the problem here is that I was really wanting some Ritual type action going on for out-of-combat utility. Things like Identify, Leoumond's Tiny Hut... that sort of thing, which is surprisingly difficult to bolt onto the Bard.

Then I see Warlock and see Tome Warlock + Book of Ancient Secrets, and go 'Hey, here's a way to bolt on, at least in theory, every single Ritual spell ever'. And really, since I'm already casting off of Charisma anyway, I can pick up EB and Agonizing Blast for some consistent damage output in the bargain. And with UA, I pick up Raven Queen as my Patron for Cha mod to active and passive Perception checks.



So... I look at the pros and cons:

PRO:

* All the Rituals ever
* A couple of spell slots that refresh after a short rest, greatly assisting in my endurance.
* Consistently respectable ranged damage when I don't have anything better to do. Bolt on Hex from the Warlock spell list for more fun and need to focus something down
* Charisma bonus to passive and active Perception checks from Patron
* Bonus cantrips from ANY spell list from Pact of Tome never hurt anyone.

CON:

*Due to how Warlock casting specifically interacts with... just about everybody else's casting, I don't get to continue advancing spell slots or spells known like I normally would, losing me 1-2 entire spell levels, depending on if I am on an even or odd character level
* Slowing down my access to Lore Bard's bonus spells from other classes

So... yea. The fact that Warlock casting is different from everyone else's means it actually hurts to multiclass into almost as badly as 3.5e multiclassing, but I think it'll be worth it in the long run, considering all the hats I need to wear with this character.

[RSP]

First, it's not every ritual, as it's only for rituals that are cast at half your Warlock level. So if only going to 3rd level Warlock, I think you'd only get up to 2nd level rituals (I think the Ability says round up but double check me on that).

Dipping Warlock can be good, as invocations and short rest slots can go a long way on a full caster, however, three levels is a lot to delay some fantastic Bard abilities.

I'd base your decision on this: if you want to be a support character, stay Bard. If you want to do more damage, dip Warlock.

[Woglin]

Things like Identify, Leoumond's Tiny Hut... that sort of thing, which is surprisingly difficult to bolt onto the Bard.
Could you clarify this point? I'm curious about the difficulty you're encountering.

Bard already has both of these spells, and several others, on its class list. It also has the Ritual Casting feature. A couple of Warlock levels will boost your damage output, but not do much for your utility casting.

[Marvnmartian]

yeah... dipping three is kinda... bleh.. so unless you know your not gonna hit 20 and give up that last magical secrets then have fun but 2 levels will get you charisma to eb which is the whole point of the dip in the first place for the blasting advantages.

i would just stick with a simple 1 level dip into cleric of your choice preferred would be knowledge imo for the extra skills to balance a new party allowing you to face/heal/control their way through fights

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Y'see, that's what I get for not reading the fine print and why I went here before screwing myself over. Still trying to feel my way into 5e.

If it wasn't for backup heals, I'd almost be tempted to use the UA Wizard of the Lore Master college. Or maybe straight Tome Warlock.

Eh, they need utility magic pretty desperately, and some backup heals, so I guess straight Lore Bard it is... boring, overused, cliché... but here we are.

[kulosle]

I am doing this right now and it frees up a lot of spell slot choices. I would say that I didn't taking agonizing blast. I took the one that lets you knock people back. Has all kinds of applications.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am doing this right now and it frees up a lot of spell slot choices. I would say that I didn't taking agonizing blast. I took the one that lets you knock people back. Has all kinds of applications.

Hey, that's not a bad idea, actually...

Two level dip in Warlock. Pick up both Agonizing and Repelling Blast. Consistent damage plus free pushes. And if the opponent is already in melee with someone, they get Reaction because that opponent just left their reach, right? Plus a couple of short-rest slots that will help extend my durability. Couple with Inspiring Leadership and Song of Rest, it gives me a heck of a lot I can do for the party on a short rest...

Plus I really like the raven I get from the Raven Queen patron. While it is on my shoulder it is effectively a buff that gives me Cha mod to passive and active Perception checks. Which, on a skillmonkey, is NOT a bad idea.

[Woglin]

Hey, that's not a bad idea, actually...

Two level dip in Warlock. Pick up both Agonizing and Repelling Blast. Consistent damage plus free pushes. And if the opponent is already in melee with someone, they get Reaction because that opponent just left their reach, right? Plus a couple of short-rest slots that will help extend my durability. Couple with Inspiring Leadership and Song of Rest, it gives me a heck of a lot I can do for the party on a short rest...

That's exactly what I'm playing at the moment. Lore Bard 12 / GOO Warlock 2 currently, with those invocations. It's fun and effective. The delayed spell progression hurts, but repelling blasts (and telepathy) make up for it. Between inspiring leader, cutting words, and healing word, it does a pretty good job of keeping the party alive. It's been my favourite character to play so far, of any edition. I wouldn't want to take a third warlock level though.

[Nemesis67]

Depending on how your GM handles illusions, the Silent Image at-will could also be really helpful and fun. Under archer fire? Magic up a stone wall. Trying to trick a cult that you are their god? Shadowy tendrils/divine light/flames. Need a visual aid in a party discussion? Bam, magic slideshow.

That and the Repelling Blast gets you a lot of clever actions that can help save your party, without overshadowing any of their roles.

Personally, I really want to play a Lore Bard X / Great Old One Warlock 2, taking the Silent Image and Mask of Many Faces at will. Ultimate spy. I could also make this a BBEG, if I take Simulacrum with the Magical Secrets at Level 14. An entire intelligence network of illusionary duplicates of the same individual, doing whatever nefarious deeds he is.

[Sans.]

And if the opponent is already in melee with someone, they get Reaction because that opponent just left their reach, right?

No, the enemy has to choose to move. :/

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, the enemy has to choose to move. :/

So a spell like Puppet, which convinces the opponent to move in that direction as a charm effect... THAT would cause it to provoke

[RSP]

So a spell like Puppet, which convinces the opponent to move in that direction as a charm effect... THAT would cause it to provoke

If they use their movement you're good. So if a creature has 30' movement and uses 5' of that to leave a creature's reach, opportunity attack.

Things like Repelling Blast or Shove, which moves creatures but doesn't use their movement, don't provoke.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If they use their movement you're good. So if a creature has 30' movement and uses 5' of that to leave a creature's reach, opportunity attack.

Things like Repelling Blast or Shove, which moves creatures but doesn't use their movement, don't provoke.

Yea, it's basically similar to Dissonant Whispers. If target fails save, target must use their reaction to move. Fun part is you can also make them drop whatever they have equipped as part of that, and it is a Con save instead of a Wis save. Granted, a lot of things have a strong Con save, so at first blush it would seem less than useful, but very few things have BOTH Con AND Wis saves as being strong, so it gives me a choice of saves to target to cause opponent to move on their action and provoke.

Also, looking at Hex, I may well drop it, since it's a 1st level spell, of which I have a select few and have many options for. Granted, it is no-save and synergizes with my EB nicely because it'll stack damage, but damage isn't my primary thing since I've got two Barbarians and a Rogue in the party. So I guess the question is... what in combat is considered to be an Ability Check? I believe Saves and Attack Rolls are explicitly NOT Ability Checks, which leaves the utility of this spell somewhat sparse, even though it IS one of the few no-save debuffs in the game.

[Citan]

Okay, so the group I'm joining has largely inexperienced players and the last arcane user got killed off a couple of sessions ago, and the only healer in the party has a tendency to massively overheal.

So, being the experienced player that I am, I decide to roll up an arcane toolkit support with backup heals character.

Lore Bard seems like a natural choice for the role. He can bolt at least some spells from other lists onto his own, and his own list really isn't that bad to begin with. But the problem here is that I was really wanting some Ritual type action going on for out-of-combat utility. Things like Identify, Leoumond's Tiny Hut... that sort of thing, which is surprisingly difficult to bolt onto the Bard.

Then I see Warlock and see Tome Warlock + Book of Ancient Secrets, and go 'Hey, here's a way to bolt on, at least in theory, every single Ritual spell ever'. And really, since I'm already casting off of Charisma anyway, I can pick up EB and Agonizing Blast for some consistent damage output in the bargain. And with UA, I pick up Raven Queen as my Patron for Cha mod to active and passive Perception checks.



So... I look at the pros and cons:

PRO:

* All the Rituals ever
* A couple of spell slots that refresh after a short rest, greatly assisting in my endurance.
* Consistently respectable ranged damage when I don't have anything better to do. Bolt on Hex from the Warlock spell list for more fun and need to focus something down
* Charisma bonus to passive and active Perception checks from Patron
* Bonus cantrips from ANY spell list from Pact of Tome never hurt anyone.

CON:

*Due to how Warlock casting specifically interacts with... just about everybody else's casting, I don't get to continue advancing spell slots or spells known like I normally would, losing me 1-2 entire spell levels, depending on if I am on an even or odd character level
* Slowing down my access to Lore Bard's bonus spells from other classes

So... yea. The fact that Warlock casting is different from everyone else's means it actually hurts to multiclass into almost as badly as 3.5e multiclassing, but I think it'll be worth it in the long run, considering all the hats I need to wear with this character.
Hi!
Honestly, it all boils down to two questions imo.
1. Would you be comfortable with using the same few low-level spells when other people begin accessing much more "powerful" spells?
2. What is the highest level spell you just cannot play without, compared to the previsible end character level?

The first point caters to how you view your character. Honestly being still a "3rd/4th-level spell" caster even when you are a high level character can be very fine.
Either because you have a creative mind and quick wits so you often find a useful way to use them (Enlarge, Silence, Invisibility, Enhance Ability, Telekinesis etc).
Or because it makes you the enforcer of consistant and reliable tactics on which your whole party built teamwork strategies (buffing people with Bless or the powerful hitter with Elemental Weapon, being the one who sets battlefield apart with a Wall of X, trying to disable the most dangerous foe with a Hold Person / Bestow Curse...).

The second question will help you set a hard limit on the Bard level you really want to attain early enough to really enjoy your character concept.


This multiclass can really work wonders and become easily the greatest asset of the party. ;) If you are fine with letting go of 9th and 8th spells, and you are fine with "spellcasting stalling" for the whole second part of your character life, that could be a blast.

If you go for that, try to select a few spells you really want to use as often as possible, and aim for a corresponding Warlock level, with a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 9. Ideally you'd want Warlock 5 though to get 90% of all good rituals, but you will have time to take that into account depending on how willing your DM is (after all, you still have to find some scrolls/teacher/books to learn rituals ;)).
For example...
- 2nd level (Hold Person against humanoid casters, Heat Metal against big heavy hitters, Invisibility to sneak around, Enhance Ability for any in/out combat situation, Blindness for sneak/disabling caster/hitter, Silence, SPiritual Weapon, Moonbeam etc)... > Warlock 3
- 3rd level: Fear, Plant Growth, Bestow Curse, SLOW (Frigging great Slow XD), Haste, Elemental Weapon, Conjure Animals etc...
Etc (won't do the whole list too many great spells each level).

Taking this approach will also help you understand/define why your character grew up as a Warlock/Bard, how using the same select spells is part of how he sees the world. ;)

Note by the way that you could even get by with a "low" Charisma (like starting with 14 and limiting at 16) if you want instead to build on DEX (ex Valor Bard 10 / Fiend Warlock 9 could start as a ranged one, then later switch on melee with Fire Shield / Armor of Agathys stacked then switch back to ranged once you get Swift Quiver or other) or if you just want to be good all-around and instead build on Conjuration spells to contribute damage-wise and non-concentration buffs to otherwise help for example.

>>> Focus first on the character you want to incarnate, the kind of mechanics / spells you want to play with. Everything will naturally come from that (stats array, level distribution, choice of archetypes).

[Talionis]

This is a fun combination. 3 levels of Warlock are really still very useful. The big downside is losing 8&9th level Magical secrets. You still get ninth level Bard spells. If you really don't plan to get to level twenty characters you'll find enormous value for Warlock three over Warlock two. Your Warlock spell list adds second elv l spells and your spell slot bumps to second level that recharges with short rest. So it can make casting Mirror Imag most fights very viable. Plus the third level Warlock ability.

People get very hung up on losing caster levels but remember your still way ahead of Paladin and Ranger casting and your getting married re spells known and total slots. So you get a lot of utility.