Warlock-y class?

[Grand Arbiter]

I have a concept for a game that I am trying to get into, a Beastbrood Tiefling Avowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509440-Forrestfire-Studios-Playtest-The-Avowed-a-3pp-warlock-with-a-psychic-bent&highlight=Avowed) with the celestial pact who is trying to atone for past misdeeds...

At present, however, the DM has a ban on 3pp material, and allowing the Avowed could open things up for a series of other requests. Thus, they have asked me to see if my concept can work with existing Paizo material, and I have come to seek the collective wisdom of the playground for a solution.

I think I can make it work as long as the class has magical abilities it can throw around all day, (I'm not counting cantrips/orisons for this), preferably without crippling myself in doing so. The occult class Kineticist is not a viable option for what I want to do.



So... any ideas?

[Florian]

Tough. PF and at-will classes is a thing, but realistically, there´s no need for things being at will, because you don´t spent you whole time in combat and spam abilities. What you want is resources that don´t run out while your actually in combat/challenged.

A well build Panoply Savant Occultist, a Hexcrafter Magus or certain Unchained Rogues could come in handy here.

[Hunter Noventa]

There is a Vigilante archetype known as a Warlock that has 'Mystic Bolts' but they're pretty pitifully weak. The Bolts that is, not the Vigilante as a whole.

I would highly recommend the Hexcrafter Magus archetype. I played a whole campaign with one and never ran low on spells, though having the 'Brand' spell available as a level-0 spell for Spell Combat helped with that. As a bonus, you can get access to Witch Hexes, which are at-will abilities of varying power that don't eat up your Arcane Pool. If you go with the default Magus, you do get Spell Recall earlier, which if you put some focus onto keeping your Arcane Pool large, also helps with your longevity.

In addition, as a Tiefling you can take the favored class bonus to get additional Arcane Pool points, thus increasing your longevity. The Beastbrood variant isn't great for a Magus, but it doesn't directly hurt it either, you're technically better off with the default ability score bonuses. You should also consider the Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait, it lets you retrieve and hold metamagic rods while keeping your hands free for weaponry.

[Kurald Galain]

I would highly recommend the Hexcrafter Magus archetype. I played a whole campaign with one and never ran low on spells, though having the 'Brand' spell available as a level-0 spell for Spell Combat helped with that. As a bonus, you can get access to Witch Hexes, which are at-will abilities of varying power that don't eat up your Arcane Pool.

I second this suggestion. Check the Magus guide in my sig for more info.

[Frosty]

whats wrong with Kineticist?

[j!nx]

I second this suggestion. Check the Magus guide in my sig for more info.

I THIRD this suggestion

[Wartex1]

whats wrong with Kineticist?

The Kineticist is really terrible. Honestly the worst first party class by far.

Though the Kinetic Knight archetype released in the Player's Companion not too long ago gave it a boost.

[Mehangel]

whats wrong with Kineticist?

Isn't that supposed to be in blue text for sarcasm?

In all seriousness, the Kineticist is probably the weakest (and worst) class ever written by paizo. You need to optimize, just to keep up with minimum damage per round prerequisites. The class as a whole is almost counter-intuitive and counter-productive.

I am not saying you can't make a Kineticist viable for play, but like D&D's Truenamer, you kind of have to shoot yourself in the foot to do so, and even then it will never outshine anyone in the party (even monks are significantly more useful to the party than a kineticist).

[Hunter Noventa]

Isn't that supposed to be in blue text for sarcasm?

In all seriousness, the Kineticist is probably the weakest (and worst) class ever written by paizo. You need to optimize, just to keep up with minimum damage per round prerequisites. The class as a whole is almost counter-intuitive and counter-productive.

I am not saying you can't make a Kineticist viable for play, but like D&D's Truenamer, you kind of have to shoot yourself in the foot to do so, and even then it will never outshine anyone in the party (even monks are significantly more useful to the party than a kineticist).

Pretty much this. Somehow paizo decided that for at-will blasting to be 'balanced' you had to take ability burn. It's the most mind-boggling thing.

[Kurald Galain]

whats wrong with Kineticist?

(1) Its utility powers are available three to six levels earlier to a partial caster.
(2) Your choice of element severely limits what options you can take (and several elements are just plain traps).
(3) Harsh level limits on your second element and the extra talent feat.
(4) Most good abilities cost burn, and you'll run out of burn way faster than any caster runs out of spells.
(5) And finally, it deals markedly less damage than e.g. a rogue, barbarian, or blaster sorcerer.

[Arutema]

I have a concept for a game that I am trying to get into, a Beastbrood Tiefling Avowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509440-Forrestfire-Studios-Playtest-The-Avowed-a-3pp-warlock-with-a-psychic-bent&highlight=Avowed) with the celestial pact who is trying to atone for past misdeeds...

At present, however, the DM has a ban on 3pp material, and allowing the Avowed could open things up for a series of other requests. Thus, they have asked me to see if my concept can work with existing Paizo material, and I have come to seek the collective wisdom of the playground for a solution.

I think I can make it work as long as the class has magical abilities it can throw around all day, (I'm not counting cantrips/orisons for this), preferably without crippling myself in doing so. The occult class Kineticist is not a viable option for what I want to do.



So... any ideas?

If you want to throw magical abilities around all day without being a kineticist, you need Hexes. So I'd suggest Witch or Hexcrafter Magus.

[Barstro]

There is a Vigilante archetype known as a Warlock that has 'Mystic Bolts' but they're pretty pitifully weak. The Bolts that is, not the Vigilante as a whole.

Am I misreading something? Or perhaps giving things undue weight? Ranged touch attacks with a few d8s bonus damage seems pretty good. The vanilla Vigilante in my group gets Hidden Strike for pretty much every attack.

[Frosty]

If it's a standard action then it's not good at all. Ranged attackers usually get good damage by throwing out lots of attacks via rapidshot and manyshot. However, if the ability requires a standard action then the damage of that ability needs to be very high to be worth it.

[Prime32]

However, if the ability requires a standard actionIt does not. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes---paizo-inc/warlock/) You can even dual-wield them.

[Barstro]

If it's a standard action then it's not good at all. Ranged attackers usually get good damage by throwing out lots of attacks via rapidshot and manyshot. However, if the ability requires a standard action then the damage of that ability needs to be very high to be worth it.


Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free,
That's the best I could find. I think it's a free action, given all the other language. So... iteratives.

[Florian]

Isn't that supposed to be in blue text for sarcasm?

Actually, no. Some archetypes, like the mentioned Kinetic Knight, are actually pretty good. Elemental-kin races gain Kinetic Invocation as a bonus feat now, so they have access to spells.
So right now, you can build a Kineticist that is burn free on their core function, and actually wants to have a managed amount of burn for the buffs. Overall, not bad right now.

[Psyren]

Yeah, they've been getting support. I admit to being pretty underwhelmed with the launch Kineticist (as was everyone I think), but I'm going to revisit them and really grok the mechanics.

I definitely wouldn't mind an "Unchained Kineticist" though.

[Wartex1]

The Kineticist still sucks if you don't choose those options or choose some of the other trap options instead.

It's a shame, really, especially because the options that do work (like the Kinetic Knight and the PoW Roil Dancer) are not only really cool, but also different enough from the base concept that there's still a thematic area that those archetypes do not cover with really crappy mechanics.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's the best I could find. I think it's a free action, given all the other language. So... iteratives.
Specifically...

Attacking with a mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock’s normal attacks, and she can make a full attack using mystic bolts. The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting
Emphasis mine. It's pretty sweet looking, actually. TWF full attacks, all attacks resolve as touch attacks at 5th, Arcane Strike... Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, maybe? I'm not quite understanding why Power Attack doesn't apply, but hey...

[Barstro]

I'm not quite understanding why Power Attack doesn't apply, but hey...
Energy has no mass, so there is nothing to physically "power"?

[Florian]

MB are considered to be light weapons and PA is especially called out because it excludes those.

[Psyren]

The Kineticist still sucks if you don't choose those options or choose some of the other trap options instead.

Lots of classes suck if you take trap options though, so that's not saying much. About the only ones that don't are the T1 and T2 classes that can afford to drop a tier and still be able to handle any threat that comes at them.


I'm not quite understanding why Power Attack doesn't apply, but hey...

Because PF doesn't allow it:

"The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."

Deadly Aim has similar language. To apply either, you must use the bolts as regular attacks, which is likely to be a dps loss due to the increased AC you'll need to hit and the loss in accuracy from the feats themselves.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, no. Some archetypes, like the mentioned Kinetic Knight, are actually
They're not "pretty good", they're "somewhat less awful". Vigilante Warlock is still the better choice (and even that isn't great).


Lots of classes suck if you take trap options though, so that's not saying much.
There's a difference between "good, but mediocre if you take a trap option" (lots of classes) and "awful, and somewhat less awful if you take the one non-trap option in the bunch" (kinny) :smallcool:

[Frosty]

Would you say the 3.5 warlock is better than the Kineticist?

[Psyren]

There's a difference between "good, but mediocre if you take a trap option" (lots of classes) and "awful, and somewhat less awful if you take the one non-trap option in the bunch" (kinny) :smallcool:

I think the hate for the class is overblown; I've seen builds even before Kinetic Knight that were getting decent math. What's holding the class back is that it's (a) so poorly written that few people are willing to put in the time needed to really parse it unless they already have an axe to grind, (b) has few ways beyond picking the right class features to make it stronger and (c) appears to have two diametrically opposed philosophies driving its core mechanic, Burn - one saying get as much as possible and one saying avoid at all costs.

[CharonsHelper]

I think part of the Kinetiscist's problem is that people are comparing it to casters.

If you think of a Kinetiscist as filling the same slot in a group as an archer they're fine. Less single target damage, but with AOEs & utility.

And to people complaing about Burn - even with Burn they still have more HP than most classes due to their high CON score.

[Grand Arbiter]

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter so far. I'm investigating some of the suggestions at present, as well as mulling over some other half-baked ideas that could bear fruit.


-snip-

[The Kineticist] appears to have two diametrically opposed philosophies driving its core mechanic, Burn - one saying get as much as possible and one saying avoid at all costs.
This ^ is one of the things that bugs me about Kineticist. Burn as a mechanic seems like it could've been interesting, but I don't think it was handled properly. Being pulled in two different directions hurts, and makes it harder to understand how to manage, imho.


I second this suggestion. Check the Magus guide in my sig for more info.
I'm not sure if Magus would be a good fit, but I have yet to give the class a thorough once-over. I'll probably read through the guide when I get home later.


Posting from mobile, so please forgive spelling/grammar/typos.

[Florian]

They're not "pretty good", they're "somewhat less awful". Vigilante Warlock is still the better choice (and even that isn't great).

Wrong comparison point. You know that PF is all about resource attrition, that´s why Kinny can only perform on the same level as other at-will classes, namely fighter, slayer, rogue.


Would you say the 3.5 warlock is better than the Kineticist?

Hard to say. The Warlock is a problematic class, as it does not fit the basic premise of the d20 system.
Kinny performs on the level of a bard, when you know how to handle your resources and keep in mind that you actually can use a weapon, too. WL always has to be compared to a rogue as well as a full-blown caster. That´s basically wrong.

[Florian]

This ^ is one of the things that bugs me about Kineticist. Burn as a mechanic seems like it could've been interesting, but I don't think it was handled properly. Being pulled in two different directions hurts, and makes it harder to understand how to manage, imho.

Burn as a mechanic puts you roughly in the area of 4/9 casters like the paladin or medium.
Major difference is, that you have to be a bit reckless to self buff and than be conservative as not to kill yourself.

[Kurald Galain]

Would you say the 3.5 warlock is better than the Kineticist?
Absolutely. Hands down and in every single way. Better damage, more versatility, more powerful utility talents, much easier to build and play, even more diverse builds.

(this is probably why people dislike the kinny so much: they know that Paizo could just have copied the warlock and called it a day. But no, they had to make something more complicated, weaker, less versatile, and full of trap options... :smallsigh: )


I think part of the Kinetiscist's problem is that people are comparing it to casters.
Nope. They compare poorly to rogues and barbarians, both in terms of damage and in terms of versatility.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Absolutely. Hands down and in every single way. Better damage, more versatility, more powerful utility talents, much easier to build and play, even more diverse builds.

(this is probably why people dislike the kinny so much: they know that Paizo could just have copied the warlock and called it a day. But no, they had to make something more complicated, weaker, less versatile, and full of trap options... :smallsigh: )

Nope. They compare poorly to rogues and barbarians, both in terms of damage and in terms of versatility.
All of this. Just... so much all of this. I'm a pretty crunchy guy, and I had trouble sitting down and building a decent Kineticist even with a handbook. The class may be the single worst-written thing I've ever seen in a published game. The numbers may or may not add up; I've never really looked because getting to that point is excruciating.

[Psyren]

Absolutely. Hands down and in every single way. Better damage, more versatility, more powerful utility talents, much easier to build and play, even more diverse builds.

Eh, these are all debatable. I don't know too many Warlock invocations that let you animate a gargantuan bodyguard, reverse gravity, level a city with a hurricane or tidal wave, besiege a fort with instant catapults etc. For that matter, I don't know too many rogues and barbarians that can do this stuff either. And damage-wise, you either need glaive/claws or a prestige class to make EB worthwhile, while the Kineticist can actually be a decent ranged attacker out of the box if they wish.

Again, I'm not saying the class isn't weak, but then I think Warlocks are weak too. They just get more of a pass because they're easier to understand (and because of all the theurge support.)


I'm a pretty crunchy guy, and I had trouble sitting down and building a decent Kineticist even with a handbook. The class may be the single worst-written thing I've ever seen in a published game. The numbers may or may not add up; I've never really looked because getting to that point is excruciating.

I think this is the main problem. The class is just such a turnoff with how it's written that people give up long before they actually read or math out what it's capable of. And I can't blame anyone for that, especially since I'm largely in the same boat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh, these are all debatable. I don't know too many Warlock invocations that let you animate a gargantuan bodyguard, reverse gravity, level a city with a hurricane or tidal wave, besiege a fort with instant catapults etc. For that matter, I don't know too many rogues and barbarians that can do this stuff either. And damage-wise, you either need glaive/claws or a prestige class to make EB worthwhile, while the Kineticist can actually be a decent ranged attacker out of the box if they wish.

Again, I'm not saying the class isn't weak, but then I think Warlocks are weak too. They just get more of a pass because they're easier to understand (and because of all the theurge support.)
What Kineticist stuff does that? (Not hostile, just curious. I agree with you that Warlocks are on the weak end of where they should be, mostly due to their crappy base damage and severely limited Invocations known)

[Psyren]

What Kineticist stuff does that? (Not hostile, just curious. I agree with you that Warlocks are on the weak end of where they should be, mostly due to their crappy base damage and severely limited Invocations known)

In a word, Utility Wild Talents. Depending on your element(s) you can pick up stuff like Earthquake, Control Winds, Tidal Wave, Reverse Gravity, Animate Objects, Telekinesis etc., most of which are at-will. There are restrictions based on element of course, but overall I'd say the ceiling of a vanilla Kineticist is higher than that of a vanilla Warlock, WBLmancy aside (since available time to craft is campaign-dependent.) And again, they get iteratives built right into the class (both melee and ranged) instead of needing a specific blast shape with short range.

Now, for the record I would readily recommend the Vigilante Warlock over the Kineticist to someone like the OP who just wants to spam lasers and have some magical tricks. But I'm not about to pretend the Warlock's design was that much better either. Certainly it was much better written, and again you can mix it with all kinds of things to make great builds, but on its own you still end up with weird and weak abilities that you can just bet some designer threw in because they "sounded creepy," or else they took something that was several levels too low and creeped it up (Warlock's Call anyone?) before cramming it in.

[Mehangel]

Would you say the 3.5 warlock is better than the Kineticist?


Absolutely. Hands down and in every single way. Better damage, more versatility, more powerful utility talents, much easier to build and play, even more diverse builds.

(this is probably why people dislike the kinny so much: they know that Paizo could just have copied the warlock and called it a day. But no, they had to make something more complicated, weaker, less versatile, and full of trap options... :smallsigh: )

I completely agree with Kurald Galain here; Yes. Ofcourse the D&D 3.5 Warlock is better than the Kineticist. The Warlock is better than the Kineticist in almost every possible way.


I think part of the Kinetiscist's problem is that people are comparing it to casters.


Nope. They compare poorly to rogues and barbarians, both in terms of damage and in terms of versatility.

I was actually comparing it to other archers, thats just how bad the Kineticist sucks.

[Kurald Galain]

Eh, these are all debatable. I don't know too many Warlock invocations that let you animate a gargantuan bodyguard, reverse gravity, level a city with a hurricane or tidal wave, besiege a fort with instant catapults etc.

It's telling that you're talking about abilities that are fluff-only, at a level vastly above what most campaigns end at, and that are available half a dozen levels earlier to a druid :smallbiggrin:

Because practically speaking, the kinny get fun abilities like a 5'-area blast that deals one-quarter of 5d6+con damage (or one-eighth on a save), at level nine... Oh, and this costs burn, of course; it'd be too powerful to use more than a couple times per day.

For comparison: I once made a warlock build that gained a burrow speed by dealing sufficient DPR to tunnel through rock.

[Manyasone]

Well. This had derailed a bit from OP's original question. And I know derailed, it happened to me some weeks ago. That aside. OP, if kineticist is not allowed indeed a hexcrafter magus or eldritch archer may be better options than the vigilante. Pitty your DM does not allow thirdpp. Otherwise I would suggest SoP elementalist. Or a kineticist with thirdpp support like njolly his stuff. Or with the legendary kineticist archetype from legendary games

[Frosty]

What would be the easiest way to fix the Kinny?

[Psyren]

It's telling that you're talking about abilities that are fluff-only,

Nah, pretty sure those are actual spells that exist.



at a level vastly above what most campaigns end at, and that are available half a dozen levels earlier to a druid :smallbiggrin:

If "equal to druid" is your benchmark, I'm surprised you advocate for Warlock - or Magus for that matter :smallconfused:

Kurald, I agree with you on many things - but whenever you come across a class you personally dislike, you get a curious blind spot for any possible pros it may have, and resort immediately to hyperbole. Case in point our last debate about the Witch.

[Kurald Galain]

What would be the easiest way to fix the Kinny?

Replace it by the 3E Warlock. Boom, done.

[digiman619]

Replace it by the 3E Warlock. Boom, done.

Or Elementalist. Or Avowed. There are actually quite a few classes you can do that with that aren't the moderately-to-completely sucktastic Kineticist.

[Manyasone]

Disagree there, mate. Plenty of options, but in PF most of them are 3pp. And some DM's don't like that because 1st party is the holy grail and doesn't make mistakes...
Edit: ninja'd by digiman. Damn mobile keyboard autocorrect nonsense

[Malroth]

What would be the easiest way to fix the Kinny?

Start with 2 elements instead of one, Gain a second 2 when you normally gained your second one. Each point of burn costs you 1 hp instead of 1hp per level.

[Florian]

What would be the easiest way to fix the Kinny?

No can do without first agreeing on which power level (bottom and ceiling) should be appropriate for the Kinny. I tend towards unchained barbarian/monk for this.


Replace it by the 3E Warlock. Boom, done.

You seem to forget that the base warlock was pretty much sh** without the later material, especially Complete Mage.

[Kurald Galain]

You seem to forget that the base warlock was pretty much sh** without the later material, especially Complete Mage.

That's the first time I ever heard someone mention that, so I seriously doubt that. What on earth gives you that idea?

[Florian]

That's the first time I ever heard someone mention that, so I seriously doubt that. What on earth gives you that idea?

Never seen anyone play a WL without all the bells and whistles, not on normal tables, neither with RPGA. They first started to appear and be discussed on local boards towards the end of the edition.

[Kurald Galain]

Never seen anyone play a WL without all the bells and whistles, not on normal tables, neither with RPGA. They first started to appear and be discussed on local boards towards the end of the edition.

Of course players would use more material if it's available. That doesn't mean the class is bad without it.

[Florian]

Of course players would use more material if it's available. That doesn't mean the class is bad without it.

If no-one plays the class before that material became available, it means just that.

Please simply answer me this: If spellstrike wasn't´t part of the core Magus but some option that came 4 years later, you really think that the class would be as popular as it is?

[Kurald Galain]

If no-one plays the class before that material became available, it means just that.
Really now :smallbiggrin:

Seriously dude. Just because you don't remember seeing one thirteen years ago doesn't mean that nobody played a Warlock. It's pretty obvious that it wouldn't have received supplemental material if it wasn't somewhat popular in the first place. You haven't even specified what game changer the warlock supposedly gets in CM; looking over the invocation list, I see that most of his best abilities are in Complete Arcane anyway. Yes, Eldritch Glaive is a good addition; that doesn't mean the class sucks without it.


Please simply answer me this: If spellstrike wasn't´t part of the core Magus but some option that came 4 years later, you really think that the class would be as popular as it is?
Yes, the Magus remains a solid class even without spellstrike. Again, it is a good addition, and that doesn't mean the class sucks without it.

(and that is because, unlike the kinny, the 3E Warlock and the Magus are not a one-trick pony)

[Florian]

Kurald, I´m amongst the co-founders of the most important german-speaking 3.0/3.5E forum (of that time). People frequenting that forum were heavily involved with translation and localization of the source books, FAQs, Sage Advice and managing RPGA.

Before you go all "dude" on me, please do accept that I used to have some pretty good an accurate insights because of the close cooperation with Amigo and later Feder & Schwert, the local license holders.

Want to verify my claim? Check out my former user account "Coldwyn" on DnD-Gate.

Edit: Normally I wouldn't´t do this, but I think Psyren is right here. You have "Blind Spots" and you need to be confronted with them.

[Barstro]

Am I misreading something? Or perhaps giving things undue weight? Ranged touch attacks with a few d8s bonus damage seems pretty good. The vanilla Vigilante in my group gets Hidden Strike for pretty much every attack.


Mystic Bolts (Su)

A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe.

This ability replaces vigilante specialization.

Since gaining bolts causes one to lose all the d8s from Vigilante Specialization - Stalker, I feel I must retract any endorsement.

[CharonsHelper]

I'll actually weigh in - I do remember when the Warlock was rolled out - it was generally considered pretty weaksauce. I was pretty involved on the WoTC boards at the time.

I will agree that the Kinetiscist is probably too crunchy and takes some system mastery to be good - but it's much more potent out of the box than the warlock is. If you know what you're doing, it hits like a truck.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, the CArc-only Warlock does struggle a bit damage-wise. I had a friend play one in a T3ish campaign and he felt bored (because he was doing the same thing every turn) and weak (because that thing was half an attack worth of damage).

That said, I do agree that the simplest Kineticist fix is to import the Warlock. Just bump their base blast damage somehow and grant a few extra invocations known; it's a dead-easy class to fix. The Kineticist needs a ground-up rewrite even if you don't change a single rule in the process.

[Florian]

Since gaining bolts causes one to lose all the d8s from Vigilante Specialization - Stalker, I feel I must retract any endorsement.

You´re committing a conceptional error.

An ability that can bypass any kind of resistance, DR or Immunity has a significant worth, as you can hold your DPR against any target.

Edit:

@CharonsHelper:

That´s so. It´s an "at will" class and with the right build, you can go nova for pretty decent results.

@Grod The Giant:

At least someone remembers the non-glorious days of the WL.

[Hunter Noventa]

Since gaining bolts causes one to lose all the d8s from Vigilante Specialization - Stalker, I feel I must retract any endorsement.

Yeah I was going to point this out, your mystic bolts cap at 1d6+5 and you don't get your precision damage anymore. If they gained another d6 every 4 levels instead of just a +1, they might actually be usable.

[Kurald Galain]

I'll actually weigh in - I do remember when the Warlock was rolled out - it was generally considered pretty weaksauce.

Ah, I see. You're looking at the Warlock purely in terms of DPR.

You should also check its invocations, even at low level having Shatter or Summon Swarm at-will is quite impressive in terms of BFC and utility. Kinny talents are no match for Warlock invocations, even with only its original book.

[CharonsHelper]

Ah, I see. You're looking at the Warlock purely in terms of DPR.

You should also check its invocations, even at low level having Shatter or Summon Swarm at-will is quite impressive in terms of BFC and utility. Kinny talents are no match for Warlock invocations, even with only its original book.

Nope. I'm looking at the whole thing - and it was pretty weaksauce.

Shatter is pretty terrible 2/3 of the time at low level as you're either fighting things without weapons or mundane ones (they just draw another) and has a good chance of not destroying anything but a light weapon anyway. Plus - your DCs aren't going to be that high because a Warlock is much more MAD than an arcane caster. (Admittedly - it was the warlock's only decent trick.)

Summon Swarm is pretty terrible because you have no control of it and it requires Concentration to use.

[Mehangel]

What would be the easiest way to fix the Kinny?

I also want to second or third the Elementalist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/elementalist), which seriously does everything the Kineticist more efficiently, and more.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What about a Havocker witch? Gives up hexes for blasts, but still has the spells to fall back on.

[CharonsHelper]

What about a Havocker witch? Gives up hexes for blasts, but still has the spells to fall back on.

The Havocker is pretty terrible. I like the vibe and considered playing one instead of my standard witch in my current campaign - but once I looked at the nitty gritty - it's very weak.

The Havocker gains ONLY the elemental focus & kinetic blast class features. Kineticists rely upon their Burn, Elemental Overflow, and a couple other stacking things to actually make the kinetic blast do major damage and do other cool things.

[Florian]

Ah, I see. You're looking at the Warlock purely in terms of DPR.

You should also check its invocations, even at low level having Shatter or Summon Swarm at-will is quite impressive in terms of BFC and utility. Kinny talents are no match for Warlock invocations, even with only its original book.

You´re conducting the standard fallacy right now, by saying A is worth a multitude of B without actually proving your point with relevant data.

Amusing because you criticize some of my input based on that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ah, I see. You're looking at the Warlock purely in terms of DPR.

You should also check its invocations, even at low level having Shatter or Summon Swarm at-will is quite impressive in terms of BFC and utility. Kinny talents are no match for Warlock invocations, even with only its original book.
It's not that they're bad, it's that they're limited. You only have ~3 of any given level, and you have to split those between offensive stuff like blast shapes/essences, and utility stuff.


Nope. I'm looking at the whole thing - and it was pretty weaksauce.

Shatter is pretty terrible 2/3 of the time at low level as you're either fighting things without weapons or mundane ones (they just draw another) and has a good chance of not destroying anything but a light weapon anyway. Plus - your DCs aren't going to be that high because a Warlock is much more MAD than an arcane caster. (Admittedly - it was the warlock's only decent trick.)

Summon Swarm is pretty terrible because you have no control of it and it requires Concentration to use.
Um, what? You instantly break an object of up to 10lb/CL, with a Will save for an attended item. At level 1 that breaks everything but the Greataxe, Halberd, and a couple polearms; at level 2 that's everything a Medium-sized creature can come at you with and most everything a Large-sized guy can bring. To say nothing of all doors, chests, windows, and other such you can target. You're not exactly MAD, either-- you need your casting stat, Dex, and Con, just any other magic-type.

[Kurald Galain]

It's not that they're bad, it's that they're limited. You only have ~3 of any given level, and you have to split those between offensive stuff like blast shapes/essences, and utility stuff.

That's definitely true. I remember spending most of my feats on extra invocations, and wanting to homebrew more invocations known.

So that makes the restrictions on elements and on the extra talent feat extra annoying.

[Gnaeus]

If "equal to druid" is your benchmark, I'm surprised you advocate for Warlock - or Magus for that matter :smallconfused:

Kurald, I agree with you on many things - but whenever you come across a class you personally dislike, you get a curious blind spot for any possible pros it may have, and resort immediately to hyperbole. Case in point our last debate about the Witch.

Kurald is 100% right. Psyren is 100% wrong. Kineticist is absolutely among the worst classes in the game.

And "equal to Druid" isn't remotely the benchmark he's using. Gets a tiny selection of fluff powers several levels after core casters is nowhere close to equal to Druid. Equal to Alchemist, or Magus, or Bard would be nice. Heck, equal to archers at equivalent optimization would be OK. Gotta read the guide and work through some brutally counterintuitive and poorly written mechanics to be playable at all is awful.

[Florian]

@Gnaeus:

Details or shut up.

Psyren ist pretty much right in that Kinny grants access to some high-powered spells, all the while acting like a 4/9 class. Spamming,say, Earthquakte is even an zero burn thing, so all the better.

[Psyren]

There are never any details - just "lol kinny" and then crickets. Then they get compared to Hellfire Warlocks binding Naberius with Supernatural Transformation with Greater Psionic Shot and Dragon Magazine material allowed.

I get that the class is flawed (and even agree) but there is a level of mendacity going on that makes productive discussion impossible. Grod was the only one who even acknowledged the abilities I listed.

[Albertus Magus]

I'm playing a level 2 Human Kineticist right now who has Silent Image as at-will utility power for 0 burn (Water element -> Kinetic Invocation unlocks it). The free armor(+4 AC, no ACP/Max Dex/weight) or shield(+2 AC, no ACP/Max Dex/weight) is a nice bonus.

I'm excited to hit level 4 when I can use another "1st-lvl" utility wild talent (Elemental Whispers) to summon expendable familiars as scouts/flanking buddies/trap springers at will, gaining Alertness as bonus feat whenever I'm not actively using said utility wild talent.

From lvls 1-2, your damage as Kineticist is low, but from level 3-6, your damage is decent...and Kinetic invocation really helps in expanding the options - the major weakness of the kineticist - you have.


I don't have much experience with 3.5 Warlocks; at a glance, the invocations seem much less limited, more straightforward and more powerful. However, IMO the kineticist will likely do more damage than a base warlock; and an optimized kineticist can actually deal decent damage:


Example:

Kineticist(Elemental Purist) 20:
Element - Fire

Elemental Impossibility unlocks the Disintegrating Infusion at lvl 15; combined with the Blue Fire Composite Blast you unlock at lvl 7, this translates into quadruple damage compared to your normal blast.

=>
At lvl 20, you're looking at 10d6 base dmg, +1/2 CON.
+18 from Elemental Overflow+6 & Fire's Fury
Composite Specialization(lvl 16) reduces the burn cost of your composite blast to 1; Metakinetic Master reduces the burn cost of Empower Blast(lvl 5) to 0; Expanded Metakinesis grants you the option to modify your blasts with the Furious Spell Metamagic (adding another +18 dmg) for 1 burn.

All in all, you can use gather power as move action to "pay" for 2 burn(1 from composite blast, 1 from Metakinesis(Furious)), use Infusion Specialization 5 to pay for Disintegrating infusion(substance; 4 burn) and Extended Range(form, 1 burn), and unleash a ranged touch attack that deals 60d6+36+1/2 CON (Fort save (DC 19+CON) for 1/4 dmg), at will, taking no burn to do so.

That's ~246+1/2 CON average damage...as ranged touch attack, with 120' range.


And this is not the "nova" option (which would use Metakinesis: Quicken & a few more metakinesis options to deal more than twice the damage above, at the cost of some burn to you).

If he is given the time to "charge up" -> e.g. gather power as full-round action, then gather power as move action, then unleash blast(s), the kineticist can do high damage.


Some form infusions from Psychic Anthology mimic Whirlwind attack and can turn the Kineticist into a decent melee fighter...

Kinetic Form + Kinetic Whip offers large/huge base size + a reach weapon that deals either 10d6+1/2 CON as touch attack or 10d6+10+CON as normal attack...before composite blasts/metakinesis is applied.

Grappling Infusion + Deadly Earth/Wall Infusions can make for decent battlefield control in the later levels.

------------------------------

Edit: Upon closer reading, it costs 1 burn to *activate* Elemental Impossibility for 1 minute, so the above numbers aren't "quite" at-will; nonetheless, I think my point has been made.

[CharonsHelper]

That's ~246+1/2 CON average damage...as ranged touch attack, with 120' range.


More if you're a half-orc who took their optional favored class bonus.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't have much experience with 3.5 Warlocks; at a glance, the invocations seem much less limited, more straightforward and more powerful.
Yep, that's precisely our point.


an optimized kineticist can actually deal decent damage:
If you need to optimize a class in order to deal only decent damage then that suggests there is a problem :smallamused:

[Florian]

If you need to optimize a class in order to deal only decent damage then that suggests there is a problem :smallamused:

Bull and you know that.

[Albertus Magus]

Meh, I habitually optimize unless the GM/other Players specifically request a lower-powered game.

The kineticist is -after you manage the hurdle of actually *understanding* its mechanics - very easy to build and play; certainly much lower-maintenance than prepared spellcasters.

This is the appeal of the kineticist to me - simplicity in play, while being effective enough to stay relevant.

A Fire Kineticist can act as decent anti-mage starting at lvl 5 with Expanded Metakinesis(Disrupting Spell) & Burning Infusion...An Earth Kineticist can use a 5' step into the ground via Earth Glide to gain total cover, gather power in a safe position, gather more power on his next turn, 5'step out of the ground and unleash hell; an Air Kineticist can fly and hit targets 960' away for 4d6+4+1/2 CON with a ranged touch attack at will starting at lvl 7 (lvl 8 boosts the damage to 6d6+4+1/2CON); if you actually use the rules for Perception(-1 per 10 ft of distance as baseline), this turns such a character into a decent sniper...
(Use Eagle Eyed & Mwk Spyglass for -1/40ft penalty, ignoring -5 of said distance penalty...)

Of course an alchemist, Magus or skald is much more versatile(not the focus of kineticist at all) and more powerful(because spells/extracts/discoveries are awesome); however, I'd compare a kineticist to a Slayer - simple in play (though sadly with a large initial "learning" investment required).

Some players like that style of play...I happen to be one of them.

[Psyren]

Yep, that's precisely our point.


If you need to optimize a class in order to deal only decent damage then that suggests there is a problem :smallamused:

So you can deal decent damage with a Warlock without optimizing? 7d6 at 20 is decent?

[Florian]

So you can deal decent damage with a Warlock without optimizing? 7d6 at 20 is decent?

Don´t be so harsh. It´s just a bad case of nostalgia and wanting to be right a decade afterwards.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So you can deal decent damage with a Warlock without optimizing? 7d6 at 20 is decent?
9d6. +2d6 for a Greater Chausible of Fell Power (one of like two Warlock-only items in the same book). Plus maybe a bit more for a Warlock's Scepter. Plus maybe another 2d6 for Brimstone Blast, probably chaining or AoE, and probably throwing out at least one significant debuff (nausea or negative levels).

...I mean, it's still pretty bad, but it's not 7d6.

[RedWarlock]

Warlocks get 9d6 baseline by 20, though?

[Psyren]

Right - a whopping 9d6 per round at 20, sorry about that. Or 11d6 - such damage, many rolls, wow

[Frosty]

So compared to all of this, the Avowed seems really powerful. Would you guys say that class is balanced compared to most paizo classes? Granted, paizo classes do have a huge range. What tier would you say the Avowed is?

[Grand Arbiter]

I have a sorcerer idea I think I'll be going with instead of trying to make this work, but thanks for the comments and help.


I don't mind the Warlock v.s. Kineticist continuing on, so go on ahead.

[Starbuck_II]

Nope. I'm looking at the whole thing - and it was pretty weaksauce.

Shatter is pretty terrible 2/3 of the time at low level as you're either fighting things without weapons or mundane ones (they just draw another) and has a good chance of not destroying anything but a light weapon anyway. Plus - your DCs aren't going to be that high because a Warlock is much more MAD than an arcane caster. (Admittedly - it was the warlock's only decent trick.)

Summon Swarm is pretty terrible because you have no control of it and it requires Concentration to use.

I don't think you understand how Summon Swarm works.
Normal Summon Swarm: Concentration +2 rd: you don't control them at all. You activate this as full rd action.
Warlock Summon Swarm: you don't control them during concentration rounds, but they go away after you stop, so they never stop being in control as you can end them instantly. You activate this as standard action.

Warlock version is better in everyway. You don't hold concentration unless you really want to.
The best usage is spamming them as Eldritch Blast (flavor) because they are an area attack that auto hits that causes DC Fort save or nauseated.
Against DR, you should use real Eldritch Blasts (they are touch attacks).

Sure, they have low damage, but at low levels it is pretty decent.

I played a Warlock from 1st till 10th:
I found it amazing for above reasons. Sure, flavorwise, normal swarms don't attack undead, but then again you control them so I guess they do.