This is kinda funny. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Biggstick

2017-05-15, 01:19 PM

and that's why I always take a one level dip into knowledge cleric if I build a wizard.

18/19 AC (Medium armor + 14 Dex + Shield)
Two Expertise'd knowledge skills
Two languages
Bless/Healing Word

If you decide to go another level, you can grab the divine ability to be proficient at anything for 10 minutes per short rest. A smart Player can figure out all sorts of ways this can be useful to a Wizard.

As for the actual statement, I do the same thing on any Wizard I play. That 1st level of Knowledge Cleric just gives so much bang for buck.

Âmesang

2017-05-15, 01:46 PM

Admittedly I still don't get this. It's like… what does Stephen Hawking know about astrophysics? Now that Mick Jagger fellow—he's the guy to turn to! :smallconfused:

CaptainSarathai

2017-05-15, 01:58 PM

Yep. I posted about this in another thread, as an example of how jacked the skill system is in 5e.
I don't mind, "them's the rules" and all that, but it is very, very silly.

DivisibleByZero

2017-05-15, 02:04 PM

The god(s) you revere value learning and knowledge above all, so learning and knowledge basically become your religion.
I don't see why you're having a problem with that person having more knowledge on ANY given subject than just some random dude who happens to be smart and studies a bit.
I fail to see the disconnect that you apparently see.

MrMcBobb

2017-05-16, 05:39 AM

A level 20 wizard with 20 int is not

just some random dude who happens to be smart and studies a bit.

Wizards revere knowledge as well, they have to study insanely hard to perfect their craft. Their power comes from their knowledge, a clerics is granted to them by a god.

It's especially egregious when a cleric with 8 int can know more about arcana than an int 20 wizard. With 8 int you'd struggle with long division for christ sake, never mind the intricacies of the arcane and magical world.

It's a wacky disconnect but it's easily fixed (1 level dip in cleric)

DivisibleByZero

2017-05-16, 07:19 AM

A level 20 wizard with 20 int is not

Wizards revere knowledge as well, they have to study insanely hard to perfect their craft. Their power comes from their knowledge, a clerics is granted to them by a god.

It's especially egregious when a cleric with 8 int can know more about arcana than an int 20 wizard. With 8 int you'd struggle with long division for christ sake, never mind the intricacies of the arcane and magical world.

It's a wacky disconnect but it's easily fixed (1 level dip in cleric)

That's exactly what some of them are.
Not every wizard is a master of knowledge. Some of them study only what they need in order to complete their spells. They have practical knowledge.

Think of it like the difference between Arcana and Spellcraft in previous editions. Yes, they've both been merged into Arcana here, but one is for knowledge, and one is for practical application.
The wizard has practical application down pat. The cleric has more general knowledge, because that's the thing that his god(s) most reveres.
There's a difference. And so the disconnect that you're seeing isn't as illogical as it seems to you. It only seems like that because the two skills have been rolled together in this edition. But if you keep the idea that both are still present, within and under the umbrella of the same skill now, then it isn't as dislocated as it first appears.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-05-16, 08:30 AM

Div is right. The skill system is abstract. Higher bonus doesn't mean more bits of data in your head; the wizard may well have more bits of arcane data in his head. Higher bonus means you're more likely to know and think of a particular piece of info that has become the object of an ability check. The wizard doesn't own that.

krunchyfrogg

2017-05-16, 08:55 AM

18/19 AC (Medium armor + 14 Dex + Shield)
Two Expertise'd knowledge skills
Two languages
Bless/Healing Word

If you decide to go another level, you can grab the divine ability to be proficient at anything for 10 minutes per short rest. A smart Player can figure out all sorts of ways this can be useful to a Wizard.

As for the actual statement, I do the same thing on any Wizard I play. That 1st level of Knowledge Cleric just gives so much bang for buck.

I agree about the one level dip for a wizard. Two levels might be a bit much, as the wizard schitck isn't being a skill monkey (lore bards, OTOH...).

Cespenar

2017-05-16, 09:44 AM

A level 20 wizard with 20 int is, let's say, Stephen Hawking.

A level 20 Knowledge Cleric with 8 int is that guy who wins scrabble tournaments. :smalltongue:

RickAllison

2017-05-16, 02:31 PM

A level 20 wizard with 20 int is, let's say, Stephen Hawking.

A level 20 Knowledge Cleric with 8 int is that guy who wins scrabble tournaments. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't say that is a good comparison. Stephen Hawking would be a character with 16-20 Int and who took a level of Rogue to grab Expertise. Rogue 1 really could have been a single-level class called Academic. Some abilities would work funky with that (thieves' tools), but the dip gives you a new skill and Expertise in two, so it seems very apt for someone who took time for dedicated study at a university. The Sneak Attack just becomes a reflection of a studious person analyzing the target and looking for weak points.

I like to think of the solo-Wizard as an engineer, trained to practically use mathematics and science to solve problems. A Rogue dip is for those with a degree in some field or trained in theoretical aspects, someone who has gone out of their way to learn some skills above and beyond normal trained levels. Knowledge Cleric flavorwise is similar, but someone who studied up on the knowledge because they wanted to.

A 20 Int Wizard is an engineer, someone who has practically studied at magic to solve problems. A 20 Int Wizard/Knowledge Cleric or Rogue 1 is a scientist or professor, someone who is not as adept at pure problem-solving with the subject because they have divided their attention into deeper study of the mechanics at work. An 8 Int Knowledge Cleric is an enthusiast, someone who has pored over all manner of odd cases because arcane workings fascinate them, but without practical knowledge. Think of an aircraft geek who can tell you all about the newest helicopter design using vectored thrust to course-correct, but does not possess the practical knowledge to design such a helicopter.

An 8 Int Knowledge Cleric is the amateur who knows very obscure magical experiments and can bring that up when relevant, but may have never performed one himself.

Honest Tiefling

2017-05-16, 03:18 PM

RickAllison

2017-05-16, 04:41 PM

This seems like a good argument to allow the skill feats from UA, even if they are untested.

I get the idea of expertise and skillmonkies, but when the drunk guy with a lute knows more about arcane knowledge then the guy whose class is solely defined as being a magical nerd, something went a bit awry...

Wizard: "You know, I think I read a magical treatise about this..."

Bard: "I'll tell you about the wizard Dunning of Kruger, he saw something just like this when he went to take back his tower from the PepperSnards..."

The Bard can know about it from stories he has picked up in taverns, you know, like Bards do. The wizard, by contrast, may know what he knows because he has read up about it and so anything beyond his readings escapes him.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-05-16, 04:41 PM

I get the idea of expertise and skillmonkies, but when the drunk guy with a lute knows more about arcane knowledge then the guy whose class is solely defined as being a magical nerd, something went a bit awry...

If you decide that the skill system measures how much people know, and then interpret the mechanical output based on that decision, you are manufacturing your own awriety.

Biggstick

2017-05-16, 05:27 PM

An 8 Int Knowledge Cleric is the amateur who knows very obscure magical experiments and can bring that up when relevant, but may have never performed one himself.

This actually seems to be the best way to describe it. The level 20 Wizard with 20 Intelligence has actually done a majority of the things s/he is knowledgeable about regarding Arcana. The level 20 Knowledge Cleric with 8 Intelligence but Expertise in Arcana has done some sort of extensive research and learned about some crazy out there experiments or conclusions regarding Arcana (with some good ole fashioned Divine Inspiration), but has probably never actually performed the experiments or come to the conclusions the Wizard has.

Coffee_Dragon

2017-05-16, 07:45 PM

In a 1-to-20 non-stop on-the-road campaign it can be hard to explain just when any of this experimenting and reading took place... that is kinda funny sometimes.

Cybren

2017-05-16, 08:10 PM

I wouldn't say that is a good comparison. Stephen Hawking would be a character with 16-20 Int and who took a level of Rogue to grab Expertise. Rogue 1 really could have been a single-level class called Academic. Some abilities would work funky with that (thieves' tools), but the dip gives you a new skill and Expertise in two, so it seems very apt for someone who took time for dedicated study at a university. The Sneak Attack just becomes a reflection of a studious person analyzing the target and looking for weak points.

I like to think of the solo-Wizard as an engineer, trained to practically use mathematics and science to solve problems. A Rogue dip is for those with a degree in some field or trained in theoretical aspects, someone who has gone out of their way to learn some skills above and beyond normal trained levels. Knowledge Cleric flavorwise is similar, but someone who studied up on the knowledge because they wanted to.

A 20 Int Wizard is an engineer, someone who has practically studied at magic to solve problems. A 20 Int Wizard/Knowledge Cleric or Rogue 1 is a scientist or professor, someone who is not as adept at pure problem-solving with the subject because they have divided their attention into deeper study of the mechanics at work. An 8 Int Knowledge Cleric is an enthusiast, someone who has pored over all manner of odd cases because arcane workings fascinate them, but without practical knowledge. Think of an aircraft geek who can tell you all about the newest helicopter design using vectored thrust to course-correct, but does not possess the practical knowledge to design such a helicopter.

An 8 Int Knowledge Cleric is the amateur who knows very obscure magical experiments and can bring that up when relevant, but may have never performed one himself.

No, stephen hawking would be an NPC with a statblock unrelated to PC classes

DragonSorcererX

2017-05-16, 08:15 PM

A Nomad Mystic doesn't even need to read anything, he learns stuff from the psionic internet (and this knowledge can be any kind of information... even physical stuff like Athletics).

Zalabim

2017-05-17, 04:13 AM

A Nomad Mystic doesn't even need to read anything, he learns stuff from the psionic internet (and this knowledge can be any kind of information... even physical stuff like Athletics).
And now I know kung fu. Whoa.

This seems like a good argument to allow the skill feats from UA, even if they are untested.

I get the idea of expertise and skillmonkies, but when the drunk guy with a lute knows more about arcane knowledge then the guy whose class is solely defined as being a magical nerd, something went a bit awry...
The comparison looks a bit different if you're comparing the "magical nerd" class with the "knows everything" class. Bardic Knowledge used to be a class feature.

But I just realized that a level 13 knowledge Cleric with 12 intelligence can have better arcana than a a level 20 wizard with 20 intelligence

And a level 20 knowledge Cleric with 8 intelligence will have better arcana than a a level 20 wizard with 20 intelligence.
Just for reference, a level 20 wizard with 20 intelligence will have +11 on Arcana (if proficient). With that in mind, a level 13 knowledge cleric with 12 intelligence can also have +11, and a level 20 knowledge cleric with 8 intelligence would also have +11.

In case I'm not being clear, 11 is not greater than 11.

Honest Tiefling

2017-05-17, 12:08 PM

Bardic Knowledge used to be a class feature.

Bardic Knowledge was about local places, figures and legends...You know, things one might encounter in a bar or while talking to most people. Not esoteric arcane knowledge, which would be slightly weird if the bartender starts an argument on planar travel or the like.

Bards were not a know everything class, at least not in 3rd. (I don't remember 4th). Wizards had skill points to spare and every knowledge skill, so the know everything class is the Wizard, you know, the guy who studies for vast arcane power.

JAL_1138

2017-05-17, 12:28 PM

Admittedly I still don't get this. It's like… what does Stephen Hawking know about astrophysics? Now that Mick Jagger fellow—he's the guy to turn to! :smallconfused:

Well, there's Dr. Brian H. May, PhD (Astrophysics), CBE, perhaps best known as the guitarist from Queen.

Or prominent physicist Dr. Brian E. Cox, PhD (physics), OBE, FRS, formerly the keyboardist for D:Ream and Dare.

Or, not astrophysics, but comparing the druid to the bard, there's Dr. Gregory W. Graffin, PhD (zoology), MS (geology), frontman of Bad Religion.

Vogonjeltz

2017-05-17, 05:54 PM

Divine knowledge > book knowledge

Except it's not knowledge, it's recall of lore.

If they don't know it, they don't know it; having a great Intelligence (Arcana) check won't change that.

5th edition isn't 3.5, many people still don't seem to understand that.

Potato_Priest

2017-05-17, 06:13 PM

The knowledge cleric needs that bonus if they're going to be able to edge out the wizard at the religion skill. Most clerics won't even have a hope in that contest.

Vogonjeltz

2017-05-18, 05:57 PM

Saeviomage

2017-05-18, 07:07 PM

Except it's not knowledge, it's recall of lore.

If they don't know it, they don't know it; having a great Intelligence (Arcana) check won't change that.

5th edition isn't 3.5, many people still don't seem to understand that.

So what does the arcana skill represent if not that? It doesn't represent actually doing magic, and now it doesn't represent knowing magic either.

Personally I think that every character (and monster) should just get a free expertise (maybe a specific one based on class, but maybe not). Rogues are still the best skill monkeys after that, it's just that everyone can be competent at a skill at first level, and will potentially be a master of a skill at level 20, and it stops the scenario I see constantly on streams where characters with expertise basically make anyone else's skills irrelevant.

JAL_1138

2017-05-18, 08:40 PM

I mean, one of the defining class features of bards is that they go to college. :smalltongue:

LaserFace

2017-05-18, 09:36 PM

No, stephen hawking would be an NPC with a statblock unrelated to PC classes

Representing NPCs by means other than by which you build a Professional Adventurer? Madness.

Quoxis

2017-05-19, 08:23 AM

So what does the arcana skill represent if not that? It doesn't represent actually doing magic, and now it doesn't represent knowing magic either.

Personally I think that every character (and monster) should just get a free expertise (maybe a specific one based on class, but maybe not). Rogues are still the best skill monkeys after that, it's just that everyone can be competent at a skill at first level, and will potentially be a master of a skill at level 20, and it stops the scenario I see constantly on streams where characters with expertise basically make anyone else's skills irrelevant.

The wizard read about magic, learned much of it, but as it works irl they forgot everything unnecessary eventually. The die decides whether they remember something specific or not.
The knowledge cleric asks for information from their deity - basically googling something. The die decides whether their question gets answered. Makes sense for me.

It's more difficult to find an explanation for rogues with expertise in arcana (though i have yet to see one of those, they don't seem to be common).

ProphetSword

2017-05-19, 06:06 PM

I don't really see a problem with how the game portrays this. Things are rarely black-and-white; because there can be different aspects to knowledge.

As an example, I'm a computer programmer with some knowledge about computer hardware. However, because people in real life throw it all under one skill (Computers), they assume I must know everything about computers and think I can tell them why Windows crashed when they clicked on something or why their Family Tree program isn't working right. Doesn't work that way.

Even then, if there had been a real-life skill for what I do (Computer Programming), I tend to program C# and Java, so I know how they work. If someone asks me a question about another programming language like Python, I won't have the answer...though I can make an educated guess sometimes. So, even in specific categories, there can be a lot of variation.

Point is, there are many aspects to knowledge. So, it is not impossible that the Cleric knows more than the Wizard about something; because the Wizard cannot know everything.

DragonSorcererX

2017-05-19, 06:27 PM

Point is, there are many aspects to knowledge. So, it is not impossible that the Cleric knows more than the Wizard about something; because the Wizard cannot know everything.

And the Nomad knows everything he can learn from Wikipedia. :smallbiggrin:

Vogonjeltz

2017-05-20, 07:24 PM

The wizard read about magic, learned much of it, but as it works irl they forgot everything unnecessary eventually. The die decides whether they remember something specific or not.
The knowledge cleric asks for information from their deity - basically googling something. The die decides whether their question gets answered. Makes sense for me.

It's more difficult to find an explanation for rogues with expertise in arcana (though i have yet to see one of those, they don't seem to be common).

That, like most things, is a question for the DM to decide. Is this something for which the chance of success even exists?

Did the rogue pick up this knowledge chatting with travelers in taverns? Did they study at a library when they were younger, etcetera.

If the answer is that there's no chance the Rogue could know this, then the check automatically fails because you can't recall something you don't know. And, I might add, Rogues don't have Arcana as one of their skills, so they would have to have a Background or Racial feature that gives it to even get Expertise.

If you happen to have a Sage Rogue...well, there you go.