How to approach the DM

[Jaxxen]

So been playing a game for about 2 months now ( I came into it about 2 months or so after it started) and the DM is running the "Mines of Phandelver" from the starter kit. How would you all approach the DM about constant rail roading and his DM PC being the spotlight character 90% of the time (ie never gets hit etc) I actually own the adventure myself so after we completed it I went back through and just read stuff to see how we did as players and I realized how railroaded we were in the fact that we would search things and be told nope nothing there even with good rolls no player ended up with any magic item (except his!) when reading the adventure we would of clearly gotten a few things.

My wife no longer wants to play a the table (shes new anyway) and no matter what spell she casts the DM will engage her character fully with every monster (and I mean running through 3-4 AOO) so she wonders why the hell bother with clever positioning etc. I can tell the DM hates my swashbuckler because I can move in and out of combat and its hard for him to lock me down.

He will also constantly change the encounters because he thinks we're OP (I don't see how since we followed AL rules and point buys so no OP stats). Example we're a group of 4 level 4's (he's now added 2 DM npcs (yay!)) which his PC's have whatever power he wants to give them at that moment and are a level above the group. So he throws 5 cr 3 bugbear chiefs and 1 drow wizard (w/infinite spells) and of course his PC's are never targeted EVER. Fight just ended up being whack a mole with healing and characters dropping.

What would you guys do? He's already lost about 5 different players at this point.

[HammeredWharf]

Sounds like a lost cause, but you could just talk to him about it before/after a game. Other than that, you could try approaching some of the players he lost and making a new game.

[jaappleton]

You want the answer of what to do?

Find a new DM.

You'll either approach the current DM and say your grievances and he's going to ether take them into consideration and try to get better, or tell you that you're wrong and things will likely only get worse.

So find a new DM, because your wife is already out and things are looking grim. So the odds of this DM switching gears is pretty damn slim.

[DivisibleByZero]

You want to know what to do?
Start a game yourself.

Everyone loves to complain about DMs, but no one ever wants the job themselves. You have zero right to complain if you aren't willing to take on the mantle in his/her place.
Don't like your DM? Be a better DM yourself. Don't just say that you *could* be a better DM. Actually *BE* a better DM.
Problem solved.
Unless and until you're willing to do that, you're just whining.

[jaappleton]

You want to know what to do?
Start a game yourself.

Everyone loves to complain about DMs, but no one ever wants the job themselves. You have zero right to complain if you aren't willing to take on the mantle in his/her place.
Don't like your DM? Be a better DM yourself. Don't just say that you *could* be a better DM. Actually *BE* a better DM.
Problem solved.
Unless and until you're willing to do that, you're just whining.

........As much as I want to disagree....

I can't. This is fair.

DBZ is correct. The DM does have the hardest job at the table.

However, that's not to say that the DM is therefore doing a good job, or actually working hard.

[MadBear]

You want to know what to do?
Start a game yourself.

Everyone loves to complain about DMs, but no one ever wants the job themselves. You have zero right to complain if you aren't willing to take on the mantle in his/her place.
Don't like your DM? Be a better DM yourself. Don't just say that you *could* be a better DM. Actually *BE* a better DM.
Problem solved.
Unless and until you're willing to do that, you're just whining.

I'm with you on a lot Divisible, but this is complete bull.



Everyone loves to complain about restaurant cooks, but no one ever wants the job themselves. You have zero right to complain if you aren't willing to take on the mantle in his/her place.
Don't like your restaurant cooks? Be a better restaurant cooks yourself. Don't just say that you *could* be a better restaurant cooks. Actually *BE* a better restaurant cooks.
Problem solved.
Unless and until you're willing to do that, you're just whining.

My point is that people are absolutely within their rights to complain about a bad situation without taking charge of it themselves. Saying that they need to be willing to DM themselves or shut up, is asinine.

Now, based on what the OP is saying, I'd suggest finding another DM. I'm also aware we're getting a very one-sided story (by definition), so it might not represent what's actually happening.

[jaappleton]

I'm with you on a lot Divisible, but this is complete bull.



My point is that people are absolutely within their rights to complain about a bad situation without taking charge of it themselves. Saying that they need to be willing to DM themselves or shut up, is asinine.

Now, based on what the OP is saying, I'd suggest finding another DM. I'm also aware we're getting a very one-sided story (by definition), so it might not represent what's actually happening.

Well, unless you're paying the DM, this argument is actually a pretty poor one.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well, unless you're paying the DM, this argument is actually a pretty poor one.

Precisely.
This is something that people do for fun. It's a game. We're not getting paid.

"Oh, boo friggin' hoo! The guy that's spending an inordinate amount of time, and potentially money, prepping game (compared to my own time at the table) isn't doing things the way that I want them done! But I won't actually attempt to do them myself. I'll just complain about it to anyone that will listen that this person is spending his time and/or money and I'm not happy with the results."

I repeat: Unless and until you're willing to DM yourself, you're just whining.

[Jaxxen]

I do actually DM my own game once a week. To be frank I want to help the guy he's even expressed his frustration with people bailing on him and not wanting to play with him. Hence the how would other people approach him to help fix the problem so he can actually maintain players. Sure you can say I'm whining all you want to doesn't really bother me at all though doesn't address the situation in how to help the DM fix some of this.

[MadBear]

and again I call BS. You want a better example, fine.

I was a right guard for the school football team. I was a pretty decent guard and held my own fairly well. Others and I would get frustrated with our WR who would run his routes poorly. He was always late in making his cuts, and would ruin the play for everyone on the team.

Saying that unless we took up the role of WR we had no right to criticize is bull. We each had specialized roles on the team. It's a team game, that we all played for fun.

DMing requires a skill set that not everyone has/wants. Just because they don't have that skill doesn't mean they can't critique someone who is doing it badly.

With that said, suggesting that they take up the role of DM is a great suggestion, since it solves the problem. But saying unless they do that, they're doing it wrong is just stupid.

[Geddy2112]

There is not much you can do about a storytelling DM that just wants you to watch their awesome DMPC's save the day. Your best bet is to tell them that you are not having fun and why. They probably won't change, and you end up leaving the game, but so it goes.

Approach them frankly and honestly, but don't be a jerk about it. If possible, tell them the things you like as well as why you are not happy.

Having 2DMPC's is a major red flag. However, if that makes the party 4 then only you and your wife are the players, correct? Or are there 2 DMPC's after that? If you and your wife joined in, then there were only 2 players at the start and a DMPC correct? Also, just to be sure, these are not NPC's the party hired on, correct?

At low levels, and particularly a lot of 5E adventure paths, combat is incredibly swingy and dangerous. Most AP's assume 4 players, and having 2 is near impossible for most of the encounters. So I can understanding having a DMPC to make a party 3, which is still pretty tough at level 1-2. At this point, if you have 4 players then a DMPC is not needed, and 2 is very obviously an issue.

See if they will quit the storytime and run an actual game, and if not, don't play. As said above, run your own game.

[DivisibleByZero]

I do actually DM my own game once a week. To be frank I want to help the guy he's even expressed his frustration with people bailing on him and not wanting to play with him. Hence the how would other people approach him to help fix the problem so he can actually maintain players. Sure you can say I'm whining all you want to doesn't really bother me at all though doesn't address the situation in how to help the DM fix some of this.

That changes things then.
If a player came to you to express these problems, how would you want them to do it? What would your ideal scenario be?
Whatever answer you would give to that question, that's how you approach it. What do you need us for?
:smallwink:

[Jaxxen]

There is not much you can do about a storytelling DM that just wants you to watch their awesome DMPC's save the day. Your best bet is to tell them that you are not having fun and why. They probably won't change, and you end up leaving the game, but so it goes.

Approach them frankly and honestly, but don't be a jerk about it. If possible, tell them the things you like as well as why you are not happy.

Having 2DMPC's is a major red flag. However, if that makes the party 4 then only you and your wife are the players, correct? Or are there 2 DMPC's after that? If you and your wife joined in, then there were only 2 players at the start and a DMPC correct? Also, just to be sure, these are not NPC's the party hired on, correct?

At low levels, and particularly a lot of 5E adventure paths, combat is incredibly swingy and dangerous. Most AP's assume 4 players, and having 2 is near impossible for most of the encounters. So I can understanding having a DMPC to make a party 3, which is still pretty tough at level 1-2. At this point, if you have 4 players then a DMPC is not needed, and 2 is very obviously an issue.

See if they will quit the storytime and run an actual game, and if not, don't play. As said above, run your own game.

To clarify there are 4 PCs (unfortunetly it changes frequently because people stop playing with the DM) and his 2 DMPCS.

[DivisibleByZero]

DMing requires a skill set that not everyone has/wants. Just because they don't have that skill doesn't mean they can't critique someone who is doing it badly.

If they aren't even willing to try?
Yes, that absolutely does mean they have zero right to critique.

If he has indeed tried, and found that he doesn't have the skills, then he knows from experience how hard it can be, and once again he has no right to complain because he already knows that he either couldn't do it better, or has no desire to actually do it better.
Either way, it's whining.

Never ask anyone to do anything that you aren't willing to do yourself. That's true in the workplace, it's true at home, it's true at a gaming table, and it's just generally true for life.

If you aren't willing to do <insert thing here> yourself, then you have no right to complain about that way that it gets done.

[Clone]

I'd bring it up with the DM first and foremost, before deciding on whether to leave or not. The DM may be willing to listen to constructive criticism. How you do this would depend on your relation to the DM.

If you are friends outside the game, ask them for a coffee/ lunch and simple explain how you and your wife feel and inquire about the reasoning for their decisions such as the significance of their DMPCs or the magic items issue. Make sure they understand that you just want to understand their decision making processes, otherwise they may become defensive. If you don't know them outside of the game, send them an email with your questions. Its less confrontational than putting them on the spot and you can phrase everything you want to say clearly so there isn't room for paraphrasing or misinterpretation. Be open to what they say, you might end up agreeing with their logic (even if you seeming don't, hence the post).

If you don't like how they run things after the conversation or feel you can't play with their logic, then simply be respectful and leave. They were running the game before you and your wife joined, they'll continue to run after you leave. While I agree to a certain extent with DBZ, there seems to be a clash of expectation and style of play between yourself and the DM. So sure, the DM's job is the hardest at the table but if you want to play a certain style when the DM wants another, very little conversation can solve that issue.

[Corran]

My point is that people are absolutely within their rights to complain about a bad situation without taking charge of it themselves. Saying that they need to be willing to DM themselves or shut up, is asinine.
I agree with this.

Haven't you ever played with a DM who puts a lot of effort in their campaign, has a very good and exciting story, plans for exciting encounters, gives very good descriptions, etc etc etc, BUT..... if they could just cut back just a bit on the railroading, then everything would be perfect? Well, I have.

To my understanding this occurs when a talented DM, who knows that they are indeed talented at this, puts all the emphasis on just telling their story, leaving little to no room for the players' characters' actions to influence the story/world/etc in any other than the predetermined by the DM way. That often has to do with DM's that are afraid of improvisation.

But anyway, my point is, that as a player, asking for things to improve (or generally change in a way you think of as being an improvement), is perfectly acceptable (especially if you are not the only one wanting this). Basing this with arguments and pursuing it through a civil discussion between you and the DM is perfectly acceptable. Criticism is perfectly acceptable (except by tyrants I guess...).

The ''deal with it or gtfo - leave the campaign, become a DM'' should be what you resort to when everything else has failed.

ps: You dont have to be an example of what you are arguing for, in order for your opinion to have merit. Presenting logical arguments is often enough, assuming you are dealing with reaasonable and logical people, at least in order to establish the disagreement and discuss it thouroughly.

[Jaxxen]

That changes things then.
If a player came to you to express these problems, how would you want them to do it? What would your ideal scenario be?
Whatever answer you would give to that question, that's how you approach it. What do you need us for?
:smallwink:

As far as how I would handle the situations I'm talking about.

1. I don't run DMPCs unless I'm playing an NPC they rescued, I don't play combat NPCS unless its the town guard or some such assisting in a large fight.

2. When players ask me something that they want to do I try within reason to allow them to do so with rolls. I don't like to play as a DM that just says NOPE to everything or say Go ahead and roll no nothing before the dice even hit the table.

3. I let my players do things within the confine of the story and change it accordingly to their actions. (throws a wrench in whatever I prepare but sometimes definetly ends up more fun)

4. I don't tailor encounters to punish my players for playing with what their class does especially if they are playing by the rules in the book. Why would anyone do that?

5. Actually try to reward your players for clever play and don't punish them for not going down my narrow decision route.

My problem is how do you tell a person these things without them becoming defensive and or is it even worth it?

[MadBear]

If you aren't willing to do <insert thing here> yourself, then you have no right to complain about that way that it gets done.

Yeah...... no.

[jaappleton]

Ok, TC has said a couple things that change my advice.

TC, you said you DM a different game?

Invite him to play as a one shot. Let me see how it can be done.

Invite him, and say "Hey, you've expressed your frustrations on X, Y, and Z. Come sit at my table for a session or two, and see how some other DMs handle things. And then we'll compare notes."

[DivisibleByZero]

Yeah...... no.

Yes.
If you aren't willing to do it, you don't get to complain about the way that it's done.
The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done. That's called whining.

[Demonslayer666]

I would address it as "what makes a game fun". It sounds like he doesn't realize what he is doing isn't fun for his players.

First, outline your talking points. That way, when you are in the middle of the conversation, you can make sure you hit each topic you want to discuss.

Under each topic, note why you don't like it, and try to come up with a solution to resolve it so you can make a suggestion for him to try.

[Mandragola]

So basically it's one of those difficult interpersonal conversations you have to have from time to time. You're being the good guy by trying to fix things.

Luckily, the DMG is actually great. It explains right from the start that the DM's role is to make everyone have fun - not to win and make himself look awesome. So getting him to read it is key.

To sweeten the pill for him, tell him some of the things you like about how he does things, not only what he does wrong.

The main thing you need to do is get rid of his DMPCs. DMPCs are the worst. A good DM needs to be interested in telling the story, and letting the players play their part, not in dominating the whole event. That's what it sounds like is happening here, and the sooner your DM understands that the sooner he'll stop losing players left, right and centre.

[MadBear]

Yes.
If you aren't willing to do it, you don't get to complain about the way that it's done.
The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done.

Saying you don't have a right to critique something that you don't do yourself is baseless garbage.

[Corran]

Yes.
If you aren't willing to do it, you don't get to complain about the way that it's done.
The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done.
I am stunned! I know it's the internet, but still....
And the worst part is that I cannot really discuss it without getting a little political, as this discussion is sociopolitical at its core.
I will leave you with a question though. Nay, a suggestion. Because if it was a question I suspect you would answer with a plain 'no'.
So.... suggestion: Try to think of situations where criticizing about something which you have no intention of doing yourself is fine, and in fact benefitial. And then try to think how things would be in a society-level if everyone thought the way you do.

And one more thing. You say:

The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.
I say: This is an excuse coming from people who cannot handle criticism, but even more importantly, do NOT want to deal with criticism. I assume this is common for people of young age, but when not, then the cause is much more worrisome than immaturity.

[DivisibleByZero]

Saying you don't have a right to critique something that you don't do yourself is baseless garbage.

Had I used the word "don't" then you'd be right.
I used the word "refuse" so you are wrong.
If you refuse to do something, you forfeit your potential right to critique or complain. If you do so anyway, it's called whining.

whine
(h)wīn
verb
complain in a feeble or petulant way.

pet·u·lant
ˈpeCHələnt
adjective
(of a person or their manner) childishly sulky or bad-tempered.

Whine: complain in a feeble, childishly sulky, or bad-tempered way.

The solution is 100% in your hands. You refuse to use that solution. Then you complain about the way that it is being done, even though you had the solution and refused to enact it.
You're whining.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I would address it as "what makes a game fun". It sounds like he doesn't realize what he is doing isn't fun for his players.

First, outline your talking points. That way, when you are in the middle of the conversation, you can make sure you hit each topic you want to discuss.

Under each topic, note why you don't like it, and try to come up with a solution to resolve it so you can make a suggestion for him to try.

I like this idea. You might also first just ask him if he's up for some constructive criticism that could solve his dropping players problem. If he says no, you saved yourself some trouble and can just find a new group. If he says yes and then later gets defensive, you can remind him that he said he wanted to improve.
If neither of you are into direct confrontation, you can give him a letter or send an email listing about 3 things he should change.
My personal list would be 1. No DM PCs 2. Every monster attacks the closest PC or the PC who dealt it the most damage and 3. There is one non consumable magic item that is in plain view for every boss fight

[Sir cryosin]

If they aren't even willing to try?
Yes, that absolutely does mean they have zero right to critique.

If he has indeed tried, and found that he doesn't have the skills, then he knows from experience how hard it can be, and once again he has no right to complain because he already knows that he either couldn't do it better, or has no desire to actually do it better.
Either way, it's whining.

Never ask anyone to do anything that you aren't willing to do yourself. That's true in the workplace, it's true at home, it's true at a gaming table, and it's just generally true for life.

If you aren't willing to do <insert thing here> yourself, then you have no right to complain about that way that it gets done.

By your logic we she all be world leaders, in charge of are own country's. Your comments are just vile, egotistical pieces of f****** s***. Someone comes on here asking for help dealing with a "bad DM" in his and explayer's eyes. He was not being overly hateful or mean. He was telling us some of the things he felt were problems. And asking how he should proceed to address them. And you want to tell him to be a DM and just the f up.

[DivisibleByZero]

By your logic we she all be world leaders, in charge of are own country's. Your comments are just vile, egotistical pieces of f****** s***. Someone comes on here asking for help dealing with a "bad DM" in his and explayer's eyes. He was not being overly hateful or mean. He was telling us some of the things he felt were problems. And asking how he should proceed to address them. And you want to tell him to be a DM and just the f up.

I'm not even having this discussion with the OP. I'm having it with MadBear.
The OP has my suggestion.
Get over yourself.

[Alejandro]

A good start would be to advise the DM to not have DMPCs.

If the DM says 'but the party needs X resource (healing, wizard, etc) to succeed, and they need this DMPC to provide it' then the DM should instead give the PCs an NPC to control, that can do that.

In general, the less the DM controls allies of the party, especially in combat, the better. Let the PCs do that, as long as the players are capable and willing. The DM has enough to do, anyway.

[obryn]

A DM who runs a DMPC has lost the mandate of heaven.

[suplee215]

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done. That's called whining.

Or it's called criticism/constructive criticism. By your logic, only people who have done what they are critiquing are allowed to do so. Which really limits the amount of feedback people can get.

[Jaxxen]

I understand DBZ's logic for "whining" persay. Just my personal opinion sure everyone has the right to complain whine or otherwise vent frustration. If you however don't do anything to correct a situation than yes you have no one to blame but yourself for it not getting better. Does that mean if I'm upset at president trump I should run for president? No, but there are other avenues such as voting, public forums speaking to representatives to express displeasure. In this case he's correct the three options I have are thus
1. Stop playing (solves everything except not being able to play.)
2. DM myself
3. Have a discussion with the DM on issues and come to maybe mutual agreements to everyone's benefit.

The purpose of my post wasn't to "hate" on the guy or some it was to give an example of what I thought was going wrong and poll the audience as it were on solutions on talking to another person, or gather input on how they've dealt with any similar situations in the past.

[DivisibleByZero]

Or it's called criticism/constructive criticism. By your logic, only people who have done what they are critiquing are allowed to do so. Which really limits the amount of feedback people can get.

Conversely, you can't give proper feedback from an experienced point of view unless you actually have the experience to relate.
In short: your opinion means absolutely nothing, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't tell my grandfather how to wire 240v, and he doesn't tell me how to build a dual boot computer from parts.
If you're willing to give it a shot, and DM a game, then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's called whining.

[obryn]

Yes.
If you aren't willing to do it, you don't get to complain about the way that it's done.
The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done. That's called whining.
You seem to have veered from a reasonable suggestion - "Maybe try DMing if this guy sucks" into a weird overarching and sophomoric approach to criticism. He doesn't need to DM to know that the DM is not running a fun game; he only needs his own experience as a player. And presumably, the DM - by virtue of their DMing - intends to run a game that is fun for their players and may not realize they are not. You're reducing all criticism into whining, and that's just absurd. I don't know if you accidentally backed yourself into this position and you're looking for a way out. If so, it's okay to drop this.

But I think offering to DM is a solid idea. If the DM is running 2 DMPCs, I think it's safe to suppose they really want to be a player, anyway.


Conversely, you can't give proper feedback from an experienced point of view unless you actually have the experience to relate.
In short: your opinion means absolutely nothing, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't tell my grandfather how to wire 240v, and he doesn't tell me how to build a dual boot computer from parts.
If you're willing to give it a shot, and DM a game, then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's called whining.
You don't need to know how to wire 240v in order to tell if your appliances work.

You don't need to know how to build a dual-boot PC to know if it's working.

You don't need to DM to know a DM is running a bad game.

[Jaxxen]

Conversely, you can't give proper feedback from an experienced point of view unless you actually have the experience to relate.
In short: your opinion means absolutely nothing, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't tell my grandfather how to wire 240v, and he doesn't tell me how to build a dual boot computer from parts.
If you're willing to give it a shot, and DM a game, then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's called whining.


Fair enough, but would you say your grandfather is not allowed to have a discussion with you about said computer? Perhaps ask your reasoning behind why you're doing something the way you are if he doesn't understand?

[LtPowers]

Problem: Joe wants to play in a D&D campaign that's run competently but his current DM is incompetent.
Proposed Solution: Joe should be the DM.

I'm thinking there's a disconnect here.


Powers &8^]

[DivisibleByZero]

Fair enough, but would you say your grandfather is not allowed to have a discussion with you about said computer? Perhaps ask your reasoning behind why you're doing something the way you are if he doesn't understand?

Discussion about the hows and whys? Sure.
Complaints about any of it? Nope nope nope.
Discussion is fine. Do NOT complain.
But that's for a player who has never DMd before.
The OP's situation is different. Which is why I suggested that the OP think about how he'd like to be approached in his own game, and handle it that way.

[Final Hyena]

Saying you don't have a right to critique something that you don't do yourself is baseless garbage.
It's like saying a reviewer isn't allowed to point out negatives in a film because he's not a director... Or even worse you can't express dissatisfaction with politicians.

[DivisibleByZero]

It's like saying a reviewer isn't allowed to point out negatives in a film because he's not a director... Or even worse you can't express dissatisfaction with politicians.

Again, those examples are paid services.

It's more like the neighborhood kid who mows your Grandma's grass on Saturday for free so that she doesn't have to, and then Grandma screams at him because he didn't also weed whack.
Grandma's a jerk.

[Sir cryosin]

Conversely, you can't give proper feedback from an experienced point of view unless you actually have the experience to relate.
In short: your opinion means absolutely nothing, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't tell my grandfather how to wire 240v, and he doesn't tell me how to build a dual boot computer from parts.
If you're willing to give it a shot, and DM a game, then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's called whining.

So if some came to you talking about how they are being abused, sexually assaulted, you going to tell them to stop whining because they never did any of that there self. Do you not give advice to friends or family when they ask even if you never in that situation before.

[DivisibleByZero]

So if some came to you talking about how they are being abused, sexually assaulted, you going to tell them to stop whining because they never did any of that there self. Do you not give advice to friends or family when they ask even if you never in that situation before.

Are you seriously trying to compare not being happy with your DM to sexual abuse?
I'm not even going to dignify this with a comment.

[Jaxxen]

Discussion about the hows and whys? Sure.
Complaints about any of it? Nope nope nope.
Discussion is fine. Do NOT complain.
But that's for a player who has never DMd before.
The OP's situation is different. Which is why I suggested that the OP think about how he'd like to be approached in his own game, and handle it that way.

So the question would be simply.

Player A: Hey man it looks like people are not having fun and here are the reasons that I'm noticing. Maybe if you tried doing this people would stop just leaving your game.

You're saying that if this person doesn't DM he's not allowed to say an obersvation about a situation? Little murky on your thoughts for that.

[DivisibleByZero]

So the question would be simply.

Player A: Hey man it looks like people are not having fun and here are the reasons that I'm noticing. Maybe if you tried doing this people would stop just leaving your game.

You're saying that if this person doesn't DM he's not allowed to say an obersvation about a situation? Little murky on your thoughts for that.

Anyone is allowed to have an opinion and observations, and discussion about those.
No one is allowed to complain unless they're willing to DM the game themselves.
Discussion = Fine.
Complaints = Run your own game or shut up.
You can discuss, in a friendly and constructive manner. You cannot whine.

[Jaxxen]

Anyone is allowed to have an opinion and observations, and discussion about those.
No one is allowed to complain unless they're willing to DM the game themselves.
Discussion = Fine.
Complaints = Run your own game or shut up.
You can discuss, in a friendly and constructive manner. You cannot whine.

Isnt that somewhat a perspective the sentence I wrote was still a complaint just not a rude one, and a complaint doesn't make a person a bad person regardless of experience. It depends on your ability to be civil in a discourse.

.

Player A: Hey man it looks like people are not having fun and here are the reasons that I'm noticing. Maybe if you tried doing this people would stop just leaving your game.

So lets take this situation here as the example since we both agree that this is a way to discuss something.

Bringing up the topic with the DM is in of itself a complaint. Breaking this down by saying hey people aren't having fun! (implied here is its being caused by an individual (ie complaint). Continuing this by adding on the reason why people are unhappy (which is a form of complaint.) Adding in the maybe we should try something different (a complaint still however in the form of a suggestion) Ie why companies have suggestion boxes and complaint forms about their business.

Now Player A, may decide you know what I want to run a game my way so I will go DM cya later sucker! But does doing this help the original person become better at what they are doing? Maybe, maybe not depends on the person and how they evaluate their own situation.

Whining on the other hand would be Your game sucks! Without any rational discourse between people. Just sayin

[Sir cryosin]

Are you seriously trying to compare not being happy with your DM to sexual abuse?
I'm not even going to dignify this with a comment.

Yes I am someone come to you for advice. And you tell them to stop whining. And they have no right to complain because they never been in the other person shoes or have the same experience. By your logic the jury in a court trial has no right to say whether that person is guilty or innocent by your logic. Because they are just random people who are serving their freaking jury duty notice. The point is you're not helping anybody you're just telling them to stop whining like a little baby and do it themselves if they're asking for advice give them some reasonable advice other than stop whining like a little f****** baby that's not f****** advice.

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm thinking we're missing the garden for the tomatoes we ourselves planted.

OP is asking what's a good way to approach the DM about this problem, not complaining about it or offering random criticisms. It's been established what problems he has with the DM's style; those aren't the subject, the method of resolving the problems are the subject.

I think it all depends on what this person's temperament is. He may not even realise how much of a tool he's being, with his two DMPCs and overly-controlling behavior. If that's the case, you may need to be cautious with your wording, so he doesn't immediately go on the defensive. Remember, you're not trying to persuade him to run the exact game you want to play, no questions allowed. You're mostly just asking him to loosen the reins, which is certainly a reasonable request, especially if you're already playing a pre-made adventure to begin with. I've found that typing out what you're trying to say, always asking "How will he respond to this phrasing?" is a big help. It may seem like you're trying to coddle a temperamental child, but I've found it usually results in a well thought-out message with no room for a rational person to become offended.


Yes, I am. Someone comes to you for advice, and you tell them to stop whining, and they have no right to complain, because they've never been in the other person's shoes or have the same experience. By your logic, the jury in a court trial has no right to say whether that person is guilty or innocent, by your logic. Because they are just random people who are serving their freaking jury duty notice. The point is, you're not helping anybody. You're just telling them to stop whining like a little baby and do it themselves. If they're asking for advice, give them some reasonable advice other than "Stop whining like a little f****** baby." That's not f****** advice.
Whoa there, killer. Your comparisons are pretty darn extreme, don't you think? This kind of thing is why I'm advocating the method I described above. It's just as easy to give a level-headed response to what someone said, as it is to angrily berate someone for things they're not even saying.

[CaptainSarathai]

Dealing with this right now, and have been for months. I am a DM, I have been DMing for 15 years. I had a group that I was running locally, and my girlfriend decided that she wanted to try D&D. I'm not one to just do "slot-then-drop" players in my campaigns. If you're not sure that you'll probably stay, then you don't join my group. That, and the fact that she wanted me to run a PC next to her rather than be DM, meant that we joined what I *thought* was a store-sanctioned "learn to play" 1-shot.
It was none of those things, except "Learn to Play" - the extent that the DM had never even played a single game of 5e.

My GF eventually completely lost patience. Mission accomplished, we had determined that she likes playing D&D, but the DM was just sucking the life out of the game (and awkwardly attempting to flirt with her any time I wasn't around) She's joined my group, happy endings.
The only reason that I didn't abandon this fledgling DM and his game, is because I actually like the group of people that came together to play it (DM and his new friend excluded - they are everything I outgrew in highschool, and are both well into their 20s).

Initially, I tried to help him out after games and in private, away from the table. He'd act like he had everything under control, and understood my advice, and then next session it was like he never listened at all.
And I don't mean in terms of story telling. This kid is way too fundamentally flawed to even begin criticizing his story. I mean, he doesn't know how to calculate encounters or encounter XP, how to use skill checks, handle Rest mechanics, and so on. Yet, he insists on houseruling classes, new home brew material, and weapons and so on. This has gotten to a point where it's downright detrimental to certain classes. It did not help his case that he would show up to sessions and admit that he hadn't prepared or couldn't come up with material to continue on. He couldn't engage the table - players would just sit on their phones or tablets, or doodle, or stack dice until he stopped DM-spotlighting himself and his boring NPCs long enough for us to do something. The party was veering dangerously toward murder-hoboism, because starting fights was the only way to enjoy at least one pillar of the game.

Once we hit that line (and were languishing at lvl3 after 6 months of bi-weekly 5hr sessions) I'd finally had it and started getting mean. Initially, I started by offering my "coaching" advice via public posts on the group's FB page. Long, skull-hammering posts correcting every fundamental rules mistake he had made during the session.

I had long been "the rules guy" at the table, and while I'm normally quiet about such things when I trust a DM, a new DM who obviously can't be bothered to read the material needs to know that NO, there is no Lockpicking skill any more, and it is now a (Dex)ThievesTools roll.

Last session this finally came to a head when we fought a Deadly encounter, and he wanted to give us 95XP each instead of the 600xp the encounter was actually worth. He obviously didn't know how XP was calculated. He tried to make the excuse that he didn't realize there were multipliers for the number of enemies in the encounter. Okay, except that even without the multiplier, we should have still been getting 200xp each.

I had been talking with the other players, and they were all willing to basically "vote me in" as the next DM. The problem was that we were playing a game store that everyone shared, and the DM was one of those socially stunted and awkward type kids who latches on to the management and staff as their only source of friends and family (the only people who are trapped with him and can't run away). So if we all quit and make the DM cry, things are going to get real awkward for anyone who wants to go play MtG or Wargames at that store.

I am absolutely willing to bail on this game, and most of you will probably agree that I should. Still, I would rather DM a game for these people, because they want me to, and they are all on that knife-edge of quitting D&D altogether (their words, not mine). So I've been trying to brow-beat the DM into stepping down or off a bridge. Either/or at this point, because he's a slimy human being and a crap DM to boot.

TL:DR - Bad DMs are usually bad with social skills, too. Unless there's a "political" reason why you can't, just burn 'em. Take their players and start your own group. Show up an hour early to game night, sit at a different table, and play a loud, excited, game of well-DMed D&D. They'll learn.

[KorvinStarmast]

What would you guys do? He's already lost about 5 different players at this point.
Let's start at the bottom. You need to have a one on one conversation with him, before the next game, and explain to him why he's lost 5 players so far, and is about to lose two more if he doesn't grow as a DM.

Explain two things:

(1) DMPC generally a poor idea and he's made it worse. There's been some good info posted here: share it with your DM. Heck, link him to this thread, and tell him you started it because you are looking for ways NOT to leave ... because you want to give him a chance to grow and improve as a DM.

(2) Knowing how the encounter design goes is an important part of the DM role. Explain that, since you have DM'd, it matters and he needs to make sure he knows how to do it.

--------------------------------------

Meanwhile, I'd suggest that you ask your wife to look for another group and when she finds one she thinks will work, join them since she's your wife and she has priority on a lot of things.

[Coretex]

Conversely, you can't give proper feedback from an experienced point of view unless you actually have the experience to relate.
In short: your opinion means absolutely nothing, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't tell my grandfather how to wire 240v, and he doesn't tell me how to build a dual boot computer from parts.
If you're willing to give it a shot, and DM a game, then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's called whining.

This is precisely correct.

I believe the argument here is coming from a difference between complaints (what DBZ is harshly but probably accurately calling whining) and observations.



Or it's called criticism/constructive criticism. By your logic, only people who have done what they are critiquing are allowed to do so. Which really limits the amount of feedback people can get.


You don't need to know how to wire 240v in order to tell if your appliances work.

You don't need to know how to build a dual-boot PC to know if it's working.

You don't need to DM to know a DM is running a bad game.

Also true.

Think on this:

Unless I know how to bake a cake and watched the chef cook one I have no right to say that the chef does not know how to bake a cake well.
I can look at the cake that has resulted from his efforts and OBSERVE that it is terrible.
Then I could go and tell the chef that I didn't appreciate the results of his effort. His cooking didn't "work" for me.

Even then I cannot go and tell him how to make a better cake, or that he is a bad cook, because under what authority or experience am I speaking from? my ass?

It is not until I make an attempt (or succeed) at becoming a cook myself that I can give valid criticism to the chef.


That doesn't mean I have to eat his food if I don't like it.



It's like saying a reviewer isn't allowed to point out negatives in a film because he's not a director... Or even worse you can't express dissatisfaction with politicians.

Actually a reviewer should only point out the negatives from his personal experience as a VIEWER. He watches the film and gives an entirely subjective preview of what our experiences might be when we watch it. Any reviewer who has never directed (or at least learned how to) talking about the direction is doing a disservice because WHY WOULD HE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. If he doesn't know anything about it then why should anyone, especially the film's director, pay any attention to what he is saying.

We have a lot of people in the world blowing hot air around about how they don't like what others are doing, despite having no real knowledge or understanding of what goes into making these things happen. Sure, the result might not be to your liking, and that feedback can be valuable and even appreciated by good people. But pretty much anything beyond that is useless whining and no-one should expect it to be valuable or valued.

A result can be subjectively judged by anyone and objectively judged by experts, a process can only be judged by experts.
Understand your place in each situation and either accept it or work to change it. That is the best all of us can hope to do.


TDLR: Talk with authority on things you know about, or merely give a subjective feedback on the result of someone's actions. You can do no more.

[Fey]

If they aren't even willing to try?
Yes, that absolutely does mean they have zero right to critique.

If he has indeed tried, and found that he doesn't have the skills, then he knows from experience how hard it can be, and once again he has no right to complain because he already knows that he either couldn't do it better, or has no desire to actually do it better.
Either way, it's whining.

Never ask anyone to do anything that you aren't willing to do yourself. That's true in the workplace, it's true at home, it's true at a gaming table, and it's just generally true for life.

If you aren't willing to do <insert thing here> yourself, then you have no right to complain about that way that it gets done.

I can't repair my own car, so I have no right to complain if the mechanic messes it up and now my engine is making a clunking noise.

I can't perform surgery on myself, so I have no right to complain if the doctor messes it up and I end up crippled.

I can't make a movie myself, so I have no right to complain if the director messed it up and the plot was horrible and boring.

I can't be president, so I have no right to complain if the people in office screw the entire country over.

...or people could have the right to express their own opinions about things they don't like, and the right to do something to fix it without having to take over the role of the person who is messing up. You don't have to BE a DM to complain that the DM is doing a bad job. D&D is a TEAM game. I'm sick of this "It's the DM's game so it's his way or the highway" BS that pops up all the time. The players are supposed to have as big of a role as the DM in determining the kind of game they want to play and how the story plays out. If the DM isn't taking his players' needs into consideration, he is a horrible DM and should step down.

And saying they're "just whining" only proves that you're an unsympathetic person who is --whining about how much other people are whining--. Why don't you stop whining yourself, and actually help the OP solve the problem? Because if you're not willing to help them yourself, then all you're doing is whining, and you could just shut up and let people who have useful advice post their advice instead.

Posting over and over again about how everyone is "just whining" is entitled, immature garbage.

[LtPowers]

Even then I cannot go and tell him how to make a better cake

Sure you can, assuming the problem is so obvious that anyone with even a passing familiarity with cake can identify it. "I don't want to eat a cake with chunks of hamburger in it" is a perfectly reasonable complaint, and one doesn't need to have ever baked a cake before to be entitled to say "Maybe you should try making a cake without hamburger in it."


Powers &8^]

[Dr.Samurai]

You want to know what to do?
Start a game yourself.
He already DMs a game himself, and starting a new one doesn't actually help address the problem he's come to us with.

Everyone loves to complain about DMs, but no one ever wants the job themselves.
Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder than anything else. The complaints in the OP sound legitimate.

You have zero right to complain if you aren't willing to take on the mantle in his/her place.
This is simply not true, but typical of the nonsense you tend to proclaim as absolute fact in every thread you pop up in.

But even if we were to take your BS as true, it doesn't help. Again, if the DM wants to continue DMing, and the OP wants to continue playing, but both are not satisfied with the drop out rate of the players or the state of the game in general, telling them to switch places is utterly pointless. You could have just not posted in this thread for all the help you have been.

Don't like your DM? Be a better DM yourself.
This doesn't make any sense. You are not arranging words together in a way that is useful or helpful to anyone. You can be a better DM than your current DM, and it doesn't help change the fact that your current DM is running his game into the ground.

Don't just say that you *could* be a better DM. Actually *BE* a better DM.
This is not required to solve the problem the OP has. Please come down from your ivory tower and join the rest of us here on The Ground, where you might be able to see things more clearly and offer *actual* advice.

Problem solved.
No, no it isn't.

Unless and until you're willing to do that, you're just whining.
You can't give advice, can't make an argument, so you resort to name calling. I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

[Delicious Taffy]

[Snip]

Even after getting clarification, it still persisted. It's whining, it's just all whining, everything is whining. Talk about a broken record. I've yet to see any actual advice that applies to the situation and doesn't devolve into repeating the same old line about how whiny it is.

[Kane0]

Red Flags:
- DMPC(s)
- Believes PCs are OP using core rules
- Singles out players
- Has lost players already

Best option is to find another DM/table, or do it yourself.
You already have the book(s) and have actually read them, you're well enough equipped to give it a shot. You could even try to contact the other people that have already left the table to make a new group without the trouble DM.

Edit: Though if you are inclined to a good sit down and chat with the DM out of game may or may not help. It largely depends on yours and his social skills.
Disarming statements are often best, it avoid bruising the ego more than necessary. Things like "I noticed that X" or "Have you tried Y"

[Fizzygirl]

If I were you, I would approach him calmly and just constructively explain to him the issues you have with his technique. Maybe do so in a way that sort of asks him if he realizes what he's been doing. No matter how he reacts, continue speaking to him calmly and offer some advice on how he could change a bit for the benefit of the party. Maybe explain that you believe his "one man pony show" technique is the reason he keeps losing players. You mentioned that he's complained about always losing players, so he might accept your criticism and openly want your advice since you also have experience DMing and you know what it's like to play under him. Like Delicious Taffy said, don't try to get him to completely change in a way that you just get the game you want. Whatever you decide to do, I would suggest that you remain calm and constructive. I hope this helps.

[MadBear]

Sure you can, assuming the problem is so obvious that anyone with even a passing familiarity with cake can identify it. "I don't want to eat a cake with chunks of hamburger in it" is a perfectly reasonable complaint, and one doesn't need to have ever baked a cake before to be entitled to say "Maybe you should try making a cake without hamburger in it."


Powers &8^]

Thank you, I was trying to come up with an example similar to yours. Some flaws are so obvious that anyone could/should point them out (DMPC that is the only one allowed to be the hero/get the treasure), and others you do need experience as a DM to really comment on (how much/little railroading is too much, if it's a problem at all, etc.)

Just because I'm unwilling to bake a cake doesn't mean that I can't comment that a chocolate cake without chocolate is poorly made.

[Coretex]

Thank you, I was trying to come up with an example similar to yours. Some flaws are so obvious that anyone could/should point them out (DMPC that is the only one allowed to be the hero/get the treasure), and others you do need experience as a DM to really comment on (how much/little railroading is too much, if it's a problem at all, etc.)

Just because I'm unwilling to bake a cake doesn't mean that I can't comment that a chocolate cake without chocolate is poorly made.

Maybe hamburger cake was the expected result? Just because it doesn't suit your subjective tastes doesn't mean it is made incorrectly.

Even so, I explicitly said that anyone can comment on the RESULT. A perhaps lower value and less important comment but appreciated by the recipient as per their character.

In the OP and On topic case for example the OP is quite clearly not having fun. As are the numerous other players in this game (at least, for all we can know). Therefore based on the RESULT we can say that this game seems not fun and suggest that OP leaves and finds a new DM after hopefully telling him why he feels such and giving him a chance to want to improve.

What we cannot do is comment on the DMs dming without being dms ourselves, except to say that good dming would hopefully not result in this unfortunate situation. There is a wide gap between saying that the DM is **** and understanding that the OP is not enjoying the game as it is right now. That is important.

[Reosoul]

Anyone is allowed to have an opinion and observations, and discussion about those.
No one is allowed to complain unless they're willing to DM the game themselves.
Discussion = Fine.
Complaints = Run your own game or shut up.
You can discuss, in a friendly and constructive manner. You cannot whine.

He's not saying put up with whatever horrible DM you have, he's saying that players really need to be more cognizant and proactive about keeping a game on track.
If you wind up in a game with DMPC's, hemmoraging players rapidly, core rules not being followed consistently, etc... Then you probably didn't have a session 0, much less picked the DM's brain about the kind of campaign they were running, or offered what you were interested in.

The problem for a lot of players when trying to offer 'advice' to a DM, is that if they haven't DM'd, they tend to veer into 'Well here's how I think you should run the game...' or 'Just be like Matt Mercer'.

That schlock is not helpful or constructive. If a game sucks, it's the players' fault too.

[Sicarius Victis]

Hey, everyone arguing over complaining/whining/critiquing, would you mind taking it to a different discussion? This thread already has a topic, which you're almost completely ignoring by now to clutter the thread up with your tangent. The OP asked for advice for dealing with a DM, and made a few very valid points, and since you're mostly no longer attempting to help anymore, why are you still having this discussion here?

As for the OP: I would start with asking why the DM is playing the DMPCs, why he thinks that your PCs are OP when the DMPCs are clearly much more powerful, and why he's modifying the adventure the way he is. I'm not saying that he'll have a good reason for any of those, but whatever explanations he gives ought to help decide whether it's more worth asking him to stop or just leaving the table. And if it does seem worth talking to him about it after that, it will also help the discussion if you know why he's doing what he is.

But if it doesn't look like he'll stop, there's nothing wrong with leaving the table. Like DBZ had said earlier, albeit in a slightly different context, this game is just for fun. If you're not having fun, that eliminates the point of the game. And if there's no point to the game, why waste your time playing?

[MadBear]

Maybe hamburger cake was the expected result? Just because it doesn't suit your subjective tastes doesn't mean it is made incorrectly.

Even so, I explicitly said that anyone can comment on the RESULT. A perhaps lower value and less important comment but appreciated by the recipient as per their character.

In the OP and On topic case for example the OP is quite clearly not having fun. As are the numerous other players in this game (at least, for all we can know). Therefore based on the RESULT we can say that this game seems not fun and suggest that OP leaves and finds a new DM after hopefully telling him why he feels such and giving him a chance to want to improve.

What we cannot do is comment on the DMs dming without being dms ourselves, except to say that good dming would hopefully not result in this unfortunate situation. There is a wide gap between saying that the DM is **** and understanding that the OP is not enjoying the game as it is right now. That is important.

couple of things.

1. Quit being purposefully obtuse. No one is talking about a purposeful hamburger cake.
2. The result it what we actually care about. I don't care if you have the best process in the world, if your result is not having the desired result then that's what matters.
3. Your point about not comments on DM without being a DM is blatant bullcrap. There is a nuance and level of degrees here. I don't need to be a cook or have interest in cooking to point out that making in making a traditional chocolate cake you shouldn't have **** as the main ingredient. On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm not a baker, my level of knowledge probably isn't nuanced enough to comment on whether we should set the temperature at 310 vs 330 degrees.

How can you possibly not see this difference? Even if I have no interest or experience in DMing, I can comment on someone being a **** DM if they walk up to the table, flip it over, spit on their players, and set the building on fire. I can absolutely say in that circumstance the DM is ****. Now if you want to have a more adult conversation on the subtleties of how far my comments can go, where the line is between whining and constructive criticism fine. But that's completely besides the point of whether or not a person has the right and should criticize someone regardless of their interest in the topic.

[Vaz]

Precisely.
This is something that people do for fun. It's a game. We're not getting paid.

"Oh, boo friggin' hoo! The guy that's spending an inordinate amount of time, and potentially money, prepping game (compared to my own time at the table) isn't doing things the way that I want them done! But I won't actually attempt to do them myself. I'll just complain about it to anyone that will listen that this person is spending his time and/or money and I'm not happy with the results."

I repeat: Unless and until you're willing to DM yourself, you're just whining.
That guy is spending an inordinate amount of time and potentially money, prepping a game to stroke his own ego. If he's writing a game for people to participate in, why is he not at least listening to his players over what they want to spend their time in an evening doing? It's a social game, and you have to be social. If people are happy being railroaded and having someone spend their 50 hours+ that they spend working on stroking their own ego for 3-4 hours/week, sure, that's fine, but when they're getting other people in to actively watch and see "look how big I am and how good I can be when I purposefully design things so that my character is SO AWESOME", people do have choices; the choice to leave, or to be an adult about things and actually have a talk; "Look mate, I enjoy playing D&D, but it feels as if some of us are getting lost in your own ego, any chance you can tone it down a bit so that I'm not spending 3-4 hours a week for no reason".

The response to that will give the player an indicator on whether to leave or stay, and if they leave, that gives them the opportunity to find another DM or become one themselves.

You shouldn't be forced to play a **** game because the DM believes that they spell their title Gee Oh Dee.

You were that kid in school who never got passed the idea of "my ball, my rules", weren't you, Divisible? Unlike others who seem to think you talk sense, I'm just going to call you out and say you spout a load of ****.

If your answer to everything is "make your own", I wonder how you get on in life. Got a wife? Makes your sandwiches? Don't like the sandwiches she makes? Rather than telling her, just let her make them, then throw the sandwiches in the bin in front of her, before making your own. Aye, ****ing good job petal.

[Coretex]

couple of things.

1. Quit being purposefully obtuse. No one is talking about a purposeful hamburger cake.
2. The result it what we actually care about. I don't care if you have the best process in the world, if your result is not having the desired result then that's what matters.
3. Your point about not comments on DM without being a DM is blatant bullcrap. There is a nuance and level of degrees here. I don't need to be a cook or have interest in cooking to point out that making in making a traditional chocolate cake you shouldn't have **** as the main ingredient. On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm not a baker, my level of knowledge probably isn't nuanced enough to comment on whether we should set the temperature at 310 vs 330 degrees.

How can you possibly not see this difference? Even if I have no interest or experience in DMing, I can comment on someone being a **** DM if they walk up to the table, flip it over, spit on their players, and set the building on fire. I can absolutely say in that circumstance the DM is ****. Now if you want to have a more adult conversation on the subtleties of how far my comments can go, where the line is between whining and constructive criticism fine. But that's completely besides the point of whether or not a person has the right and should criticize someone regardless of their interest in the topic.

I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of it now though. In both of my posts I covered both sides of the argument including the part where I agree with what you are saying. I am not trying to disagree with the specific example in this thread, merely cover the broader scope of the argument.

At any case, I feel like this discussion has run it's course.

[Ronnocius]

Yes.
If you aren't willing to do it, you don't get to complain about the way that it's done.
The thought otherwise, the thought that you get to complain about things that you aren't even willing to do yourself, is entitled, immature garbage.

If you refuse to do it, then you don't get to complain about how it's done. That's called whining.

No it's not. If I am unhappy with a campaign I'm playing in, as a player I have every right to voice complaints to the DM. That doesn't make it whining, it is stating things I would like to change, and if he wants to he will implement them, or I may leave. Just because I'm not willing to DM doesn't make the DM immune to criticism.

[Pex]

Sure you can, assuming the problem is so obvious that anyone with even a passing familiarity with cake can identify it. "I don't want to eat a cake with chunks of hamburger in it" is a perfectly reasonable complaint, and one doesn't need to have ever baked a cake before to be entitled to say "Maybe you should try making a cake without hamburger in it."


Powers &8^]

That happened on an episode of "Friends" once. :smalltongue:

[Delicious Taffy]

Guys, I think we've all been missing the point. The DM gets to run whatever game he wants, however he wants to do it. The players are there to shut up and play the way the DM wants, and if they don't like it, they can hit the road. Honestly, the players should just come in, do as they're told, and leave when the DM says it's time to leave. Since I've had experience as a DM, I'm allowed to give any criticism I want, right? Those are the rules of this thread?

The DM in this particular case seems like he may just be misguided and/or misreading the room. Doesn't mean he's not being a crappy DM, but I was a little similar (if less severe), and I took criticism as an opportunity to improve. As I said before, my suggestion is to essentially coddle the guy to whatever extent is required, so long as he comes out understanding his shortcomings and how he can improve on them. Fizzygirl also has good advice.

[Herobizkit]

To the OP:

The best way you can approach this DM is, "My wife/gf and I are done with this game. If you'd like to know why, I'd be happy to tell you our reasons."

All IMO, of course.

[Decstarr]

If you actually want to help him improve: Talk to him, state your reasons and explain why it is not fun to play with him. I'd leave out stuff like "we should've found that treasure there and didn't" because every DM is totally allowed to change things. I would instead focus on the spotlight issue. Tell him how he as a DM can have whatever spotlight he wishes, with cool monsters, interesting quests, ridiculous NPCs etcetc. And then make him understand that for the players it is not entertaining if the DMPC - why the heck does that even exist???? - steal the show. If he wants to play a PC, he should join a group, not introduce a DMPC. If he feels like your group needs this specific DMPC, he's just poor at adapting the adventure to your strengths and weaknesses.

I've recently ruined a cool session for one of my players and didn't even do it on purpose. The guy came up with a rather brilliant idea on how to tackle a problem and it worked out well. Until I realized my baddie actually could do something against it and we had a mexican standoff. It was all totally ok, but the player approached me later and told me that while he wasn't angry he was frustrated because his really cool idea didn't work out the way he wanted it to. Next session, I created a situation in which I knew he'd find a way to do something ridiculously awesome and to which the next enemy would have no answer to. And we played happily ever after. What I'm saying here is: Maybe the guy isn't even aware that he steals the show. Maybe he thinks his DMPC is important because else you guys would be dead. If no one tells him, he can't improve.

Second option: Dude is an idiot, don't waste your time on him and just quit.

[Vaz]

I've recently ruined a cool session for one of my players and didn't even do it on purpose. The guy came up with a rather brilliant idea on how to tackle a problem and it worked out well. Until I realized my baddie actually could do something against it and we had a mexican standoff. It was all totally ok, but the player approached me later and told me that while he wasn't angry he was frustrated because his really cool idea didn't work out the way he wanted it to. Next session, I created a situation in which I knew he'd find a way to do something ridiculously awesome and to which the next enemy would have no answer to. And we played happily ever after. What I'm saying here is: Maybe the guy isn't even aware that he steals the show. Maybe he thinks his DMPC is important because else you guys would be dead. If no one tells him, he can't improve.
See, this isn't something that should be an issue. Characters should be built to handle a challenge.

I don't know the context in your scenario, but one of my (3.5) groups were having a climactic battle with one of the BBEG at the top of a crevasse. The ground was slippy, and they kept having to make balance (Dexterity checks) to keep themselves stable. The Fighter had just been disarmed by his opponent, a Drow Skirmisher Swashbuckler/Duskblade, who kicked his sword over the crevasse; there would have been some skill check challenges after the fight to pick it up, I'm not a complete bastard; imagining that he would pull out his secondary weapons - a non-magical one, which would allow the Duskblade to use his Damage Reduction/Magic armour (there's a rule which allows you to reduce damage by the said amount (minimum 0) unless it's caused by damage listed after the slash; in this case, magic weapons would ignore the damage reduction; this armour was intended for the fighter to loot, and get benefit of); and part of the combat challenge.

The fighter then did something I hadn't expected - bull rushing him off the cliff - and having him plummet to his death - the fighter had a ring of featherfall to save him - only issue is that the Swashbuckler ability (the fighter didn't know this) has an ability called Arcane Stunt; allowing them to cast Feathfall 1/day for a single round; so, despite the Fighter spending the next 30 seconds floating down, while the Druid tried to fruitlessly throw their Javelins at the falling Drow, who simply waited at the bottom for the Fighter to land and engaged him there - needless to say, beat him into unconciousness and ran off, having achieved what he wanted to, and been able to humiliate the leader of the group who had to this date, thwarted a couple of his efforts - kept alive because the Fighter was a prince, and said Drow didn't need the entire kingdom rising up against him as the final ritual his master was about to complete was underway.

The Fighter wasn't to blame, but would I have been a light touch on him had I not played the Swashbuckler as his character could. Given that I simply made the character, and didn't want to have his Reflex (Dex) save too high with a warmage in the party, I'd already just pied it off 15 sessions before and picked arcane stunt that wasn't too imbalancing to combat, like Blur (think Mirror Image on roids; Flat 20% miss chance on every roll) for example. So, he had Feather Fall. But that didn't stop the fighter being annoyed that something cool was stopped by the opponent's things.

Now, I'm not saying build a character that can counter anything the players throw at you, and neither should you make changes to your character as you go - with the exception of HP or on Save or Die spells. It's no fun if you're fighting a BBEG, only to have the Party Wizard Plane Shift out, then 6 seconds later, the BBEG is gated out to another dimension, and then popping back into existence next turn, leaving the BBEG looking dumbly at the middle of nowhere on random other plane #2314 - even though it's no save, you shouldn't feel that you're doing bad if your BBEG happens to have an Amulet of the Planes, or a scroll of Plane Shift, or is even Dimensional Anchored ,because plot, because such mechanics are un fun for the party.

HP is a limitless resource, also IMHO. Everyone within a combat should feel like they're doing something worthwhile - even if it's the party Cleric Healer spamming Heals. It might seem boring to you, but if that's what they're happy doing, then sure let them have the opportunity. I've recently played a one shot, where I rolled obscenely well with my Great Weapon Master Paladin/Hexblade; I scored 2 Crits, and spent 2 5th level spells and 2 2nd level spell slots, followed by a third attack which then got another 1st level spell off to deal 10d6+28d8+27 damage on a target that otherwise would have taken 4d6+18 damage if all the attacks hit. While a slight humble brag of my leet dice rolling skills, the rest of the party were dumbfounded that I'd just smashed a target with the best part of 200 damage in a turn, and the DM was left wondering at what exactly he was going to do with the remaining 20 or so hit points the monster had remaining. Rather than simply removing the monster after the monk Burning Hand's'd him, he kept us going. It didn't dampen the achievement any - I'd literally just smashed a monster for the best part of 5 rounds of damage in a single set of attacks, but neither did it hurt the rest of the party by having that define the party.

Again, YMMV, and kudos on making your group member feel included and not upset about having said actions go to waste, but as I play games, the understanding is that the other individual is also a living member of the world - they're not going to want to fight to the death in a situation they have a chance to run away from unless there are reasons otherwise. But that also also extends to having things that might keep them alive, whether it's a suit of full plate armour and a shield, or well timed feather fall.


Second option: Dude is an idiot, don't waste your time on him and just quit.
This gets nowhere, really, unless you even try talking to them in the first place. All that does is cement the idea that people are only there to "power game" (even if it's legitimately build characters - PS, OP; none of the cool kids bother to play Adventurer's League - it's simply a collection of common house rules that allow people to mix and match between games. That's not really, D&D), and that they then flake out when they get told that they can't do the power gamey things, leading to the self reinforced thought process that he's doing the right thing by keeping power gamey people away.

[the_brazenburn]

Personally, I'm opposed to DMPCs in general. DMs know everything that's going on, and they are unfortunately almost always biased. If there's a DMPC in your group, you aren't going to get as much glory. Period. If your group is too small, you could just manage multiple PCs at once.

[Malifice]

So been playing a game for about 2 months now ( I came into it about 2 months or so after it started) and the DM is running the "Mines of Phandelver" from the starter kit. How would you all approach the DM about constant rail roading and his DM PC being the spotlight character 90% of the time (ie never gets hit etc) I actually own the adventure myself so after we completed it I went back through and just read stuff to see how we did as players and I realized how railroaded we were in the fact that we would search things and be told nope nothing there even with good rolls no player ended up with any magic item (except his!) when reading the adventure we would of clearly gotten a few things.

My wife no longer wants to play a the table (shes new anyway) and no matter what spell she casts the DM will engage her character fully with every monster (and I mean running through 3-4 AOO) so she wonders why the hell bother with clever positioning etc. I can tell the DM hates my swashbuckler because I can move in and out of combat and its hard for him to lock me down.

He will also constantly change the encounters because he thinks we're OP (I don't see how since we followed AL rules and point buys so no OP stats). Example we're a group of 4 level 4's (he's now added 2 DM npcs (yay!)) which his PC's have whatever power he wants to give them at that moment and are a level above the group. So he throws 5 cr 3 bugbear chiefs and 1 drow wizard (w/infinite spells) and of course his PC's are never targeted EVER. Fight just ended up being whack a mole with healing and characters dropping.

What would you guys do? He's already lost about 5 different players at this point.

He's a lost cause, leave the campaign immediately.

Like; immediately.

[GlenSmash!]

Is this guy a new DM? A lot of the things I see from your post seem to imply that he is. DMPCs, and railroading in particular.

New, and honestly bad DMs often think that "unless I'm the hero I won't have fun" or "unless we play the story i want to play I won't have fun"

The difference between a new DM and a perpetually bad DM is how willing to change they are. People can break out of these bad habits. I did.

So here is my advice. Instead of telling this DM how you would fix his issues, refer him to some third party resources, like TheAngryDm, or Matt Mercer, or whatever else you might know of.

That way it's less "You're doing wrong, and I could do it better" and more "Here's how the Pros handle it, let's try it this way"

[MadBear]

Is this guy a new DM? A lot of the things I see from your post seem to imply that he is. DMPCs, and railroading in particular.

New, and honestly bad DMs often think that "unless I'm the hero I won't have fun" or "unless we play the story i want to play I won't have fun"

The difference between a new DM and a perpetually bad DM is how willing to change they are. People can break out of these bad habits. I did.

So here is my advice. Instead of telling this DM how you would fix his issues, refer him to some third party resources, like TheAngryDm, or Matt Mercer, or whatever else you might know of.

That way it's less "You're doing wrong, and I could do it better" and more "Here's how the Pros handle it, let's try it this way"

That is actually a great idea. I might also recommend Mathew Colville as another great DM resource. In the end, he'll either take the advice, and things will improve, or he won't. If he does, happy gaming. If he doesn't, time to find a new group.