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shaka gl
2007-08-01, 01:39 PM
My players are going to face a Green Dragon (Mature Adult). I need a cave for him to live (and the fight to developt in), but it should have some sort of advantage for the pcs, since the CR is a bit high for them. What do you recommend me?

Call Me Siggy
2007-08-01, 01:44 PM
What's the party makeup?

Since greens are nature-focused, then give it some sort of lair made from sheer undergrowth...or overlapping trees...very surreal. Possibly add some mulch into the dragon's room that the party blaster can set fire to.

shaka gl
2007-08-01, 02:01 PM
Party Consists of:
- 10th lvl Half-Elf Knight (with a Paladin-ish Homebrewed PrC)
- 10th lvl Dwarven Barbarian
- 10th lvl Half-Orc Duskblade
- 10th lvl Human Cleric/Justiciar of Tyr
- 9th lvl Gnome Beguiler (for whom the fight would be the hardest, i think)
- 7th lvl Human Ranger (NPC)

They also will be with one of these two NPCs, depending how they side:
- 10th lvl Air Genasi Wizard
or
- 10th lvl Aasimar Paladin/Divine Crusader

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 02:36 PM
Might be an idea to throw a curve ball and say the cave is just that, a cave, no traps, minions or random bumph.... just a whacking big dragon hanging out in a room with a portable hole (to hide the hoard in) strapped under a hidden scale. I like the idea that dragons are minimalists that don't like to clutter up the place with humanoid amenaties. After all the dragon itself is more powerful than any trap of minion they can rustle up and if it all goes pear shaped it's a whole lot easier to just leave a hole in a cliff, fly 50+ miles and settle down again then to try fighting a heavily armed group of psychos, then use scrying and suggestions to turn the world spanning spy network against the party. Wherever they go and whatever they do the dragons already gone and there are mobs with torches that honestly believe they're the worst thing since Asmodeus.

nerulean
2007-08-01, 02:42 PM
For starters, if they're going to be inside a cave then they've already got a fairly big advantage as compared to fighting a dragon in an open plain where it can take full advantage of its flight. A wide playing field so they can spread out and not give it a bunch to target with its breath weapon and a low ceiling will do a lot for equalising a dragon's sheer might. A cave also limits the use of his water breathing.

At huge, he won't have his most irritating attack, the tail sweep, so most of the party should be up and doing things most of the time. Don't hem the dragon into a corner, but put it right in the middle where everyone can get a stab at it without it being able to acid everyone at once.

There is no way at all a beguiler should be weak in this fight. True, the dragon will be capable of making almost all of his will saves barring natural 1s, but you might want to have the NPC hint to the beguiler that he should be using his illusions rather than his enchantments for this particular battle and buffing others up as far as he can rather than trying to take the dragon down himself. Greater mirror image is a wonderful, wonderful spell and can distract the dragon, wasting some of its attacks if it's wading in and full attacking. He's got Freedom of movement in case Big Green decides to make use of his slightly sickening grapple modifier. With Spider climb he can grant someone a considerable manoeuvrability advantage, especially if the dragon's stuck in a small space.

Telonius
2007-08-01, 02:46 PM
They're in a cave; this already negates a bit of the Dragon's advantage (maneuverability). Rocks might grant some cover to the dragon's breath weapon. Maybe the dragon took up residence in a cave previously occupied by kobolds or dwarves, so there's tunnels throughout.

The fight may well be hard on the Wizard, as well as the Beguiler. He'll have to rely on stuff that doesn't allow saves or SR (all of which will be through the roof for a Mature Adult).

hewhosaysfish
2007-08-01, 03:00 PM
They're in a cave; this already negates a bit of the Dragon's advantage (maneuverability). Rocks might grant some cover to the dragon's breath weapon. Maybe the dragon took up residence in a cave previously occupied by kobolds or dwarves, so there's tunnels throughout.

I was thinking of tunnels too. Kobold tunnels would make sense (the dragons personal tribe of minions) but the tunnels would be too small for the PCs to use and full of kobolds besides. Dwarf tunnels would at least be Medium and the dragon could sleep on the wealth of slaughtered Dwarven kings. Tolkien did it first but meh.
Alternatively, the dragon could lair in the great hall of ruined castle/manor/palace/temple built by humans/elves/half-celestial centaurs. Basically the same idea but it's not underground and as such quite an unusual choice for a dragon. Make him realise the error of his decision as PCs (and illusory decoys) pop out of all the dusty hallways around the sides.

Bassetking
2007-08-01, 03:38 PM
Green, right?

Let's run with that "Nature" theme earlier mentioned, and have a gigantic Compost Pile in the corner of the cave. A pile of slain Shambling Mounds, a charnel-pile of resistant Treants, be creative. All you really require is this giant pile of rotting, decomposing plant matter.

In a poorly ventilated, concentrative environment.

*PROTIP* What I am about to suggest has little practical basis in real science, but works with a little Hollywood, and a little Psuedoscience.

Rotting vegetable Matter releases Methane Gasses. Make the Compost Pile explosive. The Players manage to work out that if they can lure the Green over the pile, and set it ablaze, they can knock off 1/4-1/5 of its HP, and work to mitigate the CR through creative use of environment.

*shrugs* Not a GREAT solution...but certainly one that ratchets the CR down to a manageable level, and rewards the players for thinking.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 03:43 PM
They're going to need something, this is a CR 16 moster in it's home with an Int score too high to be played dumbly, the party (even played well) should be allowed somekind of DM aid, friendly centaurs, handy explodable compost heaps (a new one i must admit) or other big plot lever cause otherwise it's going to own their pasty white asses:eek:

tainsouvra
2007-08-01, 04:03 PM
Hmm...sounds like a group of 7, with an average level of 9.5 against a single CR 16 creature. Sounds like around 4-5 CR above their "average challenge", which is rather difficult but not obscenely so.

Other than giving the players the advantage of fighting it in a cave in the first place, I actually wouldn't go with putting terrain/situation effects heavily in their favor. Two main reasons--it's a little unreasonable for a creature as intelligent as that dragon to not realize he's making his home in an environment that severely weakens him, and it's often not as much fun for the players as the alternative I prefer.

I would go from the other side, the players rather than the dragon, and let them gather some one-shot magic items, such as potions or scrolls, that would buff them for the encounter. Perhaps even make retrieving them part of a short sidequest, to add to the dramatic tension of "getting ready to slay the dragon". Let the NPC's go on about how critical it is to be ready for the incredible challenge ahead, blah blah etc.

A little protection from the dragon's breath weapon, some much-needed support magic (group sounds a little shy on that end), and fighting the dragon in close quarters instead of during flight should make it a manageable, if dramatic, battle. Don't hand them a dragon on a platter, make them work for it--the sense of accomplishment makes it a sweeter victory.

Drakron
2007-08-01, 04:05 PM
You know ... Int of 16 is not exactly genius.

Anyway ... if you want to be really mean just put him near a underwater lake or river since green dragons can breath underwater and can still use their breath weapons and spells without problems.

tainsouvra
2007-08-01, 04:10 PM
You know ... Int of 16 is not exactly genius.
It is, however, much smarter than average for a human (int 10-11), and definitely not so stupid as to fail to notice the kind of basic problems with its own home that a group of adventurers would spot within the first few seconds of walking in. If the players can spot it, the dragon really should be aware of it as well.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-01, 04:13 PM
Int 16 isn't genius but it doesn't have to be it just precludes the artificial stupidity that a monster CR 4/5+ above the average needs to not mow the PCs down, esspecially in thier own environment.

Incedentally any green dragon that doesn't lair at the bottem of a lake is out of its mind.

hewhosaysfish
2007-08-01, 04:39 PM
Incedentally any green dragon that doesn't lair at the bottem of a lake is out of its mind.

Why? The bottom of a lake is no safer than the middle of a forest or the side of a mountain.
Merfolk, Kua-Toa, Locathah, Sahuagin, Sea Elves, Tritons....

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 04:45 PM
Int 16 isn't genius but it doesn't have to be it just precludes the artificial stupidity that a monster CR 4/5+ above the average needs to not mow the PCs down, esspecially in thier own environment.

Incedentally any green dragon that doesn't lair at the bottem of a lake is out of its mind.

Yes but all dragons must be played stupidly to prevent them from ruling the world.

NullAshton
2007-08-01, 04:49 PM
Yes but all dragons must be played stupidly to prevent them from ruling the world.

Or they could just be lazy.

"Eh, I would conquer the world... but it would be so much of a bother to constantly manage it all the time... I'll just get some minions to steal more stuff for me."

Saint George
2007-08-01, 05:23 PM
The best way to get into the Dragon mindset is to envision them as very large cats. They love to sleep and lay in the sun for as much of the day as possible. They punctuate their day with the occasional hunt. "Mmmm moose...". Then back to sleep.

Oh course, this doesn't mean that they are dumb by any means. They understand that humans and the other races are running around out there in the world, but they just don't care. Let them have all of the land over the mountain, what does the dragon care? Besides, humans are good at rounding up cattle in nice devourable herds. Mmmm cow.

Now, for the lair. Green Dragons are not the absolute brightest in the bunch, but I doubt they would put themselves in an unfavorable situation. Their best bet is water breathing, so abuse that as much as possible. Maybe a air filled cave under a lake? Flooded tunnels?

Drakron
2007-08-01, 05:26 PM
Yes but all dragons must be played stupidly to prevent them from ruling the world.

I think you missed the "a monster CR 4/5+ above the average needs to not mow the PCs down".

If you are throwing a CR 16 monster at Lv 10 character they will die ... many of then just means MORE of then die, the system is balanced towards level and not numbers and such have to be keep in mind.

Worst are dragons that are at the upper of their CR and are "balanced" by wielding more loot, in short if something is going to break when it comes to the CR system its likely when dragons are involved.

Saph
2007-08-01, 06:26 PM
Worst are dragons that are at the upper of their CR and are "balanced" by wielding more loot, in short if something is going to break when it comes to the CR system its likely when dragons are involved.

This is worth remembering - dragons are supposed to be the 'boss monsters' of their CR, and are usually tougher than anything else of the same CR rating. It's assumed that any PCs going up against a dragon are going to be well prepared.

Does it really have to be a Mature Adult? Why not knock it down an age category or two? An Adult is the same size but significantly weaker, and a Juvenile is the right CR for the party (11). This evens the fight without the dragon having to have an attack of stupidity and lairing in a place that makes it weaker instead of stronger (which, let's face it, really shouldn't happen - if the dragon's that dumb, how did it live to be 300 years old?)

- Saph

Fax Celestis
2007-08-01, 06:32 PM
If you are throwing a CR 16 monster at Lv 10 character they will die ... many of then just means MORE of then die, the system is balanced towards level and not numbers and such have to be keep in mind.

Not against my players. Somehow, a party of 5 ECL 10s managed to take down a Very Old White Dragon, two Frost Worms, four Winter Wolves, a Bard/White Dragon Disciple (ECL 16), and two White Dragon Shamans (ECL 14) in one counter.

nerulean
2007-08-01, 06:37 PM
Not against my players. Somehow, a party of 5 ECL 10s managed to take down a Very Old White Dragon, two Frost Worms, four Winter Wolves, a Bard/White Dragon Disciple (ECL 16), and two White Dragon Shamans (ECL 14) in one counter.

Then they are either tactical masterminds or optimized to a point where they're so far away from standard CR they couldn't even reach it to spit on.

As for the dragon, giving the party some boosts is probably more logical than scuppering the dragon.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-01, 06:41 PM
Actually, I think the Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge specializing in Spells of Mass Burnination probably tipped the scales somewhat, considering all those cold subtypes running around.

shaka gl
2007-08-02, 10:17 PM
Thanks guys. Ill use an Adult instead of Mature Adult, since it fits more with the CR. It couldnt be a Juvenile, since they`ve killed one already and it was suppossed to be his son. As the Juvenile was VERY easy for them to kill, and one of them wasnt even there fighting, Ill assume this CR will be challenging, but appropiate. Thanks.

Renx
2007-08-02, 10:35 PM
Meh, with that party they'll probably just kick the dragon's arse anyway, assuming at least a normal magic item spread.

Hmm... though you're lacking a wizard.

de-trick
2007-08-02, 10:41 PM
how about a forgotten half destroyed wild drawf city with the dragon living in a huge castle

puppyavenger
2007-08-02, 10:55 PM
Make it in a dry cavern that the only way into is to swim to the bottem of a lake,
flavor reason water might tarnish the shiny things
real reason they'e not underwater
bonus easy escape route.