Prestigious builds!

[CIDE]

In the vacancy left behind by the repairs of the forums I got to thinking about the classic Divine Minion+Master of Many forms build. I know there's people both for and against the build working at all but it got me thinking: What other builds are there that don't require any base classes? This isn't for the sake of any game in particular but rather curiosity as a thought exercise.

So, what other builds do you guys know about or what can you think up? Only limitation is that it has to be entirely built around prestige classes.

[Waker]

Racial Paragons from UA could help for the first three levels. Survivor (Savage Species) can be entered at level 6 by any character who doesn't multiclass. Requires the best save is lower than the CL, which can be met by 5 level .

[Karl Aegis]

Half-Orc Paragon / Human Paragon / Chameleon

[Inevitability]

Forsaker should be enterable by a human/strongheart halfling with two flaws.

[mabriss lethe]

Bootstrap manifesting can be acquired with any of several combinations of races, feats, and cash. The character's class, base or prestige, hardly even matters. Though some can give you a bit more of a head start than others.

[Troacctid]

Gloura/Heartfire Fanner/Sublime Chord

[daremetoidareyo]

Maiden of pain can be entered at level 2, so a paragon class can segue into it

[danielxcutter]

Trading ex-Paladin levels for Blackguard doesn't count, right? :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Anima Mage? You can qualify on feats alone if you can get enough feats through flaws or whatnot.

[Waker]

Trading ex-Paladin levels for Blackguard doesn't count, right? :smalltongue:

The Defiant (Planar Handbook) can do the same with Cleric levels.

[CIDE]

Wow. There's a lot more than I thought there'd be. Sure, most of these seem to rely on Paragons but still way more than I thought people would come up with.

[Celestia]

Technically, racial paragons count as base classes despite not having 20 levels.

[Kaleph]

Technically, racial paragons count as base classes despite not having 20 levels.

Although I see them rather as Prestige classes, as they do not count towards the multiclass character restrictions. According to UA, they are basically a stand-alone class type.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Are there any tricks like this for PF? Closest I can think of is an Aasimar getting into Bloatmage or Evangelist at 2nd level.

[Celestia]

Although I see them rather as Prestige classes, as they do not count towards the multiclass character restrictions. According to UA, they are basically a stand-alone class type.
In practice, they are basically prestige classes. I assume the writer(s) specifically called them out as base classes so that there would be no potential issue with starting them as a first level character.

[ExLibrisMortis]

War Hulk works for large enough base races, if they have the RHD to get the base attack requirement. I imagine there are a fair number of feat/base attack-gated warrior PrCs that are available to creatures with sufficient RHD.

[Dagroth]

War Hulk works for large enough base races, if they have the RHD to get the base attack requirement. I imagine there are a fair number of feat/base attack-gated warrior PrCs that are available to creatures with sufficient RHD.

If you're going with RHD... Succubae qualify for Warshaper immediately. Ogre Magi need +1 more BAB though.

[Rebel7284]

Stoneblessed is pretty easy to enter with just a few racial HD.
Ruathar too, but less early
Ur Priest can be amazing in a build with the right HD

[Troacctid]

Oh, yes, Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10/Blackguard 10 is a build. No base class levels at all for that one.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, yes, Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10/Blackguard 10 is a build. No base class levels at all for that one.

Where are you getting the sneak attack needed for Shadowbane Inquisitor?

[WhamBamSam]

Dragons automatically qualify for PrCs requiring the dragonblood subtype per language in RotD and Dragon Magic. Automatically means automatically, so a Dragonwrought Kobold (or some manner of Wyrmling if RHD are acceptable) can get in to Disciple of the Eye or Singer of Concordance without meeting the other prereqs.

It's not clear to me that this allows a Kobold to start from 1st level with one of those classes, as they need to spend their 1st level feat on Dragonwrought in order to be dragons and qualify, but it certainly allows them to gain access by 2nd level, so Kobold Paragon 1/Disciple of the Eye 5/etc is a valid (if not great) build. Singer of Concordance is full casting and therefore much worse if you don't take a casting class first, but its features are significantly better if you get them early on.

[Anthrowhale]

If the Rebuild rules in PHBII are used, it is relatively easy to eliminate all base class levels. The discussion starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19392901&postcount=21) describes how to do this and why it's RAW legal.

[Zancloufer]

Where are you getting the sneak attack needed for Shadowbane Inquisitor?

Doesn't Blackguard give like +3d6 sneak attack?

Also if we are not counting RHD as "Classes" there is probably a pile of caster PrCs that can be entered though straight racial casting.

Also True Dragons can probably qualify fore just about any PrC before their CR hits epic. Think a Red Dragon x//Ajuberant Champion 5 would be a nasty surprise for most parties.

[Kaleph]

Doesn't Blackguard give like +3d6 sneak attack?


Yes, but you have to be lawful good to enter the shadowbane inquisitor. In addition you must have 11 lvl of Paladin to be able to trade them off for Blackguard levels.

[danielxcutter]

Doesn't Blackguard give like +3d6 sneak attack?

Also if we are not counting RHD as "Classes" there is probably a pile of caster PrCs that can be entered though straight racial casting.

Also True Dragons can probably qualify fore just about any PrC before their CR hits epic. Think a Red Dragon x//Ajuberant Champion 5 would be a nasty surprise for most parties.

Yes, but to get 10 levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor you need 4 Paladin levels and one level in Sneak Attack Fighter variant minimum, before entering Blackguard. That being said, a SA Fighter 1/Shadowbane Inquisitor 9 or 10/Blackguard 10 or 9 is entirely possible.

Edit: Swordsage'd.

[Kaleph]

Another option is the darklight wizard from the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting. When you access the prestige class, you loose all your levels from other classes and become a lvl 1 darklight wizard.

[Dagroth]

How much Sneak Attack do you need for Shadowbane Inquisitor? Half Elf Paragon 3, Human Paragon 3 w/ Martial Study x2 to get Assassin's Stance gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack & +4 BAB.

[danielxcutter]

How much Sneak Attack do you need for Shadowbane Inquisitor? Half Elf Paragon 3, Human Paragon 3 w/ Martial Study x2 to get Assassin's Stance gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack & +4 BAB.

Unfortunately, ShIn also requires the ability to cast 1st level divine spells, the Turn Undead class feature, +5 BAB, and I think the Smite Good class feature.

[Dagroth]

Unfortunately, ShIn also requires the ability to cast 1st level divine spells, the Turn Undead class feature, +5 BAB, and I think the Smite Good class feature.

Turn Undead is the only thing that stops you... Half-Celestial gives you most of what you need & Ruathar or Stone Blessed could get you the extra BAB.

Though you might be able to... nevermind, Death Delver gives Rebuke Undead. :smallfrown:

[danielxcutter]

Turn Undead is the only thing that stops you... Half-Celestial gives you most of what you need & Ruathar or Stone Blessed could get you the extra BAB.

Though you might be able to... nevermind, Death Delver gives Rebuke Undead. :smallfrown:

Aaaaand the divine spells. Don't forget that.

[Dagroth]

Aaaaand the divine spells. Don't forget that.

Half-Celestial gives you Divine SPAs which can qualify just as Warlock qualifies for various PrCs, right?

Or can we somehow qualify for Pious Templar?

[danielxcutter]

Half-Celestial gives you Divine SPAs which can qualify just as Warlock qualifies for various PrCs, right?

Or can we somehow qualify for Pious Templar?

Spells, not SLAs, as several class features require you to burn spell slots. And Warlock has a tough time qualifying for most caster PrCs anyways.

[Thurbane]

Unless specifically stated otherwise, I'm pretty sure SLAs do not count as either divine or arcane.

I think this is the rule that causes the confusion:


A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Some people see that as ascribing an either arcane or divine descriptor to the SLA: my personal reading is that is merely telling you which version of the spell to use, if the spell has different effects depending on the class using it.

In any case, they certainly don't count as spells.

[Kaleph]

Actually I am reviewing the ShIn, and it does require detect evil (as class Feature or spell); according to the Complete Arcane, also a racial SpL (as for the Half-Celestial) would qualify. The ShIn has otherwise no requirement to be able to cast divine spells (although without Slots some class abilities may not work).

[Thurbane]

In any case, they certainly don't count as spells.

Actually I am reviewing the ShIn, and it does require detect evil (as class Feature or spell); according to the Complete Arcane, also a racial SpL (as for the Half-Celestial) would qualify. The ShIn has otherwise no requirement to be able to cast divine spells (although without Slots some class abilities may not work).

Ah yes, I forgot about the clause that if a specific spell is a req, an SLA that mimics that specific spell qualifies. Good call.

I still stand by my reading that SLAs are neither arcane nor divine in nature, so due to the specific wording of the reqs of Shadowbane Inquisitor, I don't believe Half-celestial would qualify through it's SLA.

I do acknowledge that there are other readings of how SLAs are categorized.

[Vaz]

Dragons automatically qualify for PrCs requiring the dragonblood subtype per language in RotD and Dragon Magic. Automatically means automatically, so a Dragonwrought Kobold (or some manner of Wyrmling if RHD are acceptable) can get in to Disciple of the Eye or Singer of Concordance without meeting the other prereqs.

It's not clear to me that this allows a Kobold to start from 1st level with one of those classes, as they need to spend their 1st level feat on Dragonwrought in order to be dragons and qualify, but it certainly allows them to gain access by 2nd level, so Kobold Paragon 1/Disciple of the Eye 5/etc is a valid (if not great) build. Singer of Concordance is full casting and therefore much worse if you don't take a casting class first, but its features are significantly better if you get them early on.

Strictly not according to the order of operations; you choose class then feat, and you do not qualify for the prestige class at the time of the feat, and as humanoids at the time of being able to select the feat, they require one class to start with.