Minmaxing Barbarian/Rogue

[Sans.]

No Swashbuckler; too OP. Not sure where to split: 2 levels of Barb gives Reckless Attack for endless Sneak Attack, 3 probably halved damage, 4 an ASI/feat (Sentinel?) and 5 extra attack, but comes at the cost of a lot of Sneak Attack progression. Not sure which Rogue archetype. Thoughts on viability of build, other choices all welcome.

[JellyPooga]

I'm a big fan of Barb/Rogue, particularly Thief Rogue for Fast Hands and the insane terrain manipulation it enables in conjunction with Expertise in Athletics and Advantage on Strength checks from Rage. For the Barbarian side, I like Wolf Totem because it allows you to be useful just standing in the mix of things, which is something Rogues are particularly good at with Uncanny Dodge stacking with Rage Resistance and Evasion allowing you to weather friendly AoE's without concern.

To that end, Barbarian 3/Rogue 7 (my preference is to get Rogue 3/Barb 2 at character level 5, grabbing Sentinel at 6th and Wolf Totem at 7th, before advancing Rogue up to 10th) is an awesome mid-level goal to aim at and progresses your abilities in such a way that every level-up is exciting. It's a little slower on the ASI front than many people like, but the benefits of the MC far outweigh the delay IMO and you'll pick up a heap of them in short order (at Barb 4 and Rogue 8 and 10), just at the point when you really need them for the higher tiers of play (which, for me, is level 13+).

After level 10, grabbing those ASI's is probably paramount, but shotgunning for Barb 5 and Extra Attack is also an option and should definitely be on the cards at some point. For your final build, I'd look at Barb 5/Rogue 15, but that's just my preference.

[Maxilian]

Why is SB OP? either way i guess the Roguish Archetype would depend on what Barbarian you go... (unless you have a nice CHA)

I imagine you will go Totem cause Berserker and Battlerager give you a bonus action and with rogue lvls, you also get Cunning Action, so no point.

Unless you go DEX as your main damage stat, you don't get that much of Assasin (if you have low dex, your stealth won't be that good, and it would be harder for you to get a surprise round).

Arcane Trickster does give you many options, even more when you are out of rages, sadly this also make you a little more MAD, just like the Swashbuckler.

Swashbuckler is a nice option, cause it means you don't need to always use reckless attack (important when the enemy is a heavy hitter and you really don't want to get hit) -But in most cases you ignore this by using your bonus action to disengage and leave the enemy range after attacking, the extra CHA for Initiative could be quite helpful but it makes you MAD, as you already need DEX and STR at least in 13 to MC, CON in 13, if you go with Swashbuckler would also need CHA to take advantage of it or INT if you go Arcane Trickster, though you could try taking spells that do not require saves to work around the lack of INT.

Thief is quite helpful, climbing speed is as good as you want it to be (means you can easily leave a melee enemy range, and they will have a really hard time hitting you, if you go DEX as you main damage stat, your AC will be pretty good, so range attacks won't be that big of a problem for you), if you go STR based pretty good for a Grappler build.

[Naanomi]

I like half-orc Assassin 3/Barbarian 17... you can scout ahead of the party, are tough enough to live a few rounds if you get caught... and while it can be hard to pull off in some groups, a round of 3 autocrit attacks dealing 5d12 each is beautiful

[Specter]

With Shield Master it's hard to go wrong. Enemies will be losing to you in Athletics 9 out of 10 times, so your sneak attack is pretty much guaranteed. Go for Assassin, if only because you get advantage on your first turn against those who haven't acted (and considering Danger Sense, I'd say many people).

[Sans.]

Hm. Didn't even start thinking about races. Really not sure which one would be best.

[Princess]

The first 5 levels of barbarian easily offset three lost sneak attack dice for Barbarian 5/Rogue X. The question is, do you want to be the thing that goes bump in the night (Expert stealth + athletics, Assassin), or would you rather have quirky and flexible options (Thief for item interactions, mastermind for always Helping allies, or Arcane Trickster for some magical chicanery when you aren't raging). The Wolf Totem/Assassin someone already mentioned works great in a party where others also want to attack in melee, but a Bear/Mastermind might be better if everyone else hangs back while you hold enemies off. The real trick is how to explain the skill set of flying into a rage and slitting throats in some way other than 'serial killer.'

[Specter]

The real trick is how to explain the skill set of flying into a rage and slitting throats in some way other than 'serial killer.'

He could be a drunkard pirate who can climb like no one else in desperate situations. Or a rogue who was raised by savages and can still channel their fury. Or just an edgy thug with full-on rage inside. There's nothing about sneak attack that says it can't be used under madness.

[Sans.]

With Shield Master it's hard to go wrong. Enemies will be losing to you in Athletics 9 out of 10 times, so your sneak attack is pretty much guaranteed. Go for Assassin, if only because you get advantage on your first turn against those who haven't acted (and considering Danger Sense, I'd say many people).

There are a lot of ways to get advantage, huh. Assassin, Shield Master, Reckless Attack... What does Danger Sense have to do with initiative? Isn't that Feral Instinct? Not seeing Thief because with Shield Master there's a lot of competition for your bonus action.

[Arkhios]

There are a lot of ways to get advantage, huh. Assassin, Shield Master, Reckless Attack... What does Danger Sense have to do with initiative? Isn't that Feral Instinct? Not seeing Thief because with Shield Master there's a lot of competition for your bonus action.

The Second-Story Work from Thief is quite nice for Barbarian (that terrain manipulation with athletics as was mentioned earlier) even if you had Shield Master.

Especially if you like jumping alot. With strength 18 and dex 14 (for example) your long jump would cover 20 feet with ease (= without any checks!)

[Specter]

There are a lot of ways to get advantage, huh. Assassin, Shield Master, Reckless Attack... What does Danger Sense have to do with initiative? Isn't that Feral Instinct? Not seeing Thief because with Shield Master there's a lot of competition for your bonus action.

Whichever of the two gives you advantage on initiative.

None of the archetypes are too good for Barbarian, so knock yourself out with any of them (for obvious reasons avoid Arcane Trickster).

[JellyPooga]

None of the archetypes are too good for Barbarian, so knock yourself out with any of them (for obvious reasons avoid Arcane Trickster).

I disagree. Thief is really good for Barbarian. The improved athleticism from 2nd Story Work is a nicw add to an already athletic Class and the advantage on Strength checks combines nicely with Fast Hands (as I mentioned earlier) to manipulate large terrain pieces. At later levels, UMD (eventually) gives you some much needed (by that time) spellcasting if you can get your mitts on a Staff or Prayer Beads. For the creative player, Thief/Barbarian is a blast.

[Sans.]

What should I do for stats? I was thinking 16/14/14/10/10/10 with a Variant Human.

[JellyPooga]

What should I do for stats? I was thinking 16/14/14/10/10/10 with a Variant Human.

It depends on what Race you're going for. Stats aside, your Race determines much more than what bonuses and such you get.

Half-Orcs make great Barbarians and remarkably good Rogues. That extra bit of resilience gives you great sticking power and proficiemcy in Intimidation doesn't hurt the concept either.

Hill Dwarf is also a great choice. No bonus to Str or Dex, but +Con AND extra HP on top is not to be sniffed at. A little extra Wisdom to boost your mental fortitude doesn't hurt either.

Human is the "stock" choice; you get a free feat and choice on where to shove your stat bonuses. Lack of any other feature is something to consider though.

Personally, I'd go with Hill Dwarf;
Str:14, Dex:14, Con:14+2, Int:10, Wis:10+1, Cha:10

Good all-round stats; ripe for improvement, certainly (Resilience:Wisdom is definitely one to grab; if not then shifting a point from Int or Cha into Wis might be prudent) but your Class Features are more forgiving than most. Reckless Attack, Rage, Expertise...Advantage on a roll is worth a lot more than a maxed out Str score and double proficiency makes up for any other lack. Resistance to Poison, Darkvision, super-tough...what's not to like?

[Corran]

What should I do for stats? I was thinking 16/14/14/10/10/10 with a Variant Human.
No heavy armor equals stealth. Dex score of 14 and expertise (and reliable talent somewhere far down the road, and supreme sneak if going thief) means good stealth. Good stealth means scouting. Scounting means darkvision is something that would benefit you a lot. Drop the human. Pick a race with darkvision.

Also, decide if you are going to grab resilient wisdom as a feat, or if you'll wait (forever) for slippery mind to kick in. Wisdom saves are very very important. If you plan for resilient wisdom, then plan for an odd starting score in wisdom if possible. (I hate how late slippery mind kicks in, it always ruins my fun when trying to optimize multiclass rogueheavy builds).

[Khrysaes]

if you are okay with a bit more multiclass, a few levels of fighter could add a lot to the build without MAD. No more than 4 probably because you get nothing at 5.. although 6's extra ASI could be good, heck if you are okay with less barbarian, 6/4/10 is decent, or 6/3/11 if you want reliable talent.

Alternatively, there is the Revised Ranger from UA if that is allowed, and Spell-Less Ranger from UA if that is allowed, combine the two, and you can get 90ft darkvision(150 if you are a deep gnome or drow), or Collossus Slayer. Spell-Less ranger because in this instance you likely wouldnt want more than 4 levels, and snag extra attack from Barbarian, and I believe that 4 Dice and 2 manuevers(Precise/riposte) are more useful than a couple level 1 spells, even if 1 is hunter's mark.

Natural Explorer gives you a bunch of benefits including advantage on initiative, and nulls any difficulty of difficult terrain. Also makes your stealth faster.

Hell you could do 2 spell less ranger and get these benefits, 3 just gets you the Deep stalker or hunter. Deepstalker would also give you more damage on that first turn you move faster than everyone else(meshes well with assassin).

7 deep stalker gives you proficiency in Wisdom saves.

Alternatively, the Scout Fighter(UA), gets Natural explorer, though from the PHB, if you can convince your DM to allow that instead you still get precise attack, and a nice defense use of your Dice. in addition to all the fighter benefits. Riposte from battlemaster or ranger works better with sneak attack though.

You don't lose too many important class features from rogue, since they are frontloaded, and you certainly augment your abilities. You do lose some sneak attack dice though.

[ATHATH]

Why do you believe that Swashbuckler is OP?

[krunchyfrogg]

Why do you believe that Swashbuckler is OP?

x 2

[bid]

No Swashbuckler; too OP. Not sure where to split: 2 levels of Barb gives Reckless Attack for endless Sneak Attack, 3 probably halved damage, 4 an ASI/feat (Sentinel?) and 5 extra attack, but comes at the cost of a lot of Sneak Attack progression. Not sure which Rogue archetype. Thoughts on viability of build, other choices all welcome.


What should I do for stats? I was thinking 16/14/14/10/10/10 with a Variant Human.
Definitely barbarian 5, extra attack is as good as 3d6 SA. You may want 7 for feral instinct.

Swashbuckler / elk totem with mage slayer is great to reach the enemy caster and stop them. I would go mountain dwarf 16 14 16 8 10 12 or half-elf 16 14 14 8 10 14 for the sweet +4 init with advantage.

Otherwise, thief seems best.


Did you plan on a grappler build? Contested Str(athletics) checks at +17 with advantage are hard to beat.


EDIT: you could be a sweet stout dexbarian for a cheap 14 16 14 10 12 10 and cap at +14 Str check.