Orcs, proud warrior race, or idiot killing machines? What are your thoughts!

[The Fallen Hero]

Hey guys, was thinking this over after a recent game of DnD 3.5 I was playing in. In the game we're all Orcs or Half-Orcs and one of the players brought up a setting he was designing where Orcs are essentially just Hobgoblins, taking their ideas and rolling with that and not sticking to their own racial identity as a creature. Now of course every setting differs but he brought up Hobgoblins are also around and doing their own thing to so Orcs are just not as smart Hobgoblins and it got me thinking, what is Gitp's thoughts?

I have a few thoughts myself and to open the discussion I'd like to say my thoughts on Orcs. To me I love Orcs I play them in games all the time as a member of a proud warrior race with a long history of misunderstood culture, I also generally run them like that when I run a game. I do try to mix it up and make it so its on a case by case basis on how they act so Orcs can still be evil and cruel but have a strange code of warrior honor, one that makes them at least, an evil made due to nature and more evil because of nurture but still with a few redeeming qualities.

I also remember reading on TVTropes(so take it with a grain of salt) that Orcs in 2nd edition were coming into line with the more proud warrior race and less generic monster but that wasn't what people liked or how people ran it so they just dropped. BUT yea! GITP let me hear your thoughts!

[Gildedragon]

I tend to go for DnD races are just that, races.
depending on the place they'll be different.
They have a tendency towards brawn over brains but it isn't all they are.

prejudices can push orcs towards physical jobs: dockworkers, bodyguards, mercenaries, watchmen; also prejudice can make orc wizard an oxymoron in certain places.
But as one moves towards more cosmopolitan areas or cities with more orcblooded folk you start seeing them in every trade.

though i do reckon the tusks make them sound a bit denser.

[Zanos]

I don't really mind the concept of stock enemies, so settings run where orcs are legitimate targets for adventurers without a whole battalion of questions about the ethics of killing them are fine with me. I've actually kind of grown to dislike this concept as treating every creature as though it's human with a human mindset because sometimes people take it too far by trying to debate the ethics of destroying Evil outsiders and such.

Even if the setting has every humanoid species(I know the books say race, but come on now) as being equally ethical, Orcs are pretty obviously going to struggle in roles that aren't hitting stuff with sticks. Even a weak orc is stronger than the average human, and penalties to every mental stat mean they as a whole will suffer in craftsmanship, education, and non-violent conflict resolution. So yeah, you're going to see a lot of Orc bodyguards and mercenaries and bouncers, and not a whole lot of philosophers, craftsmen, or diplomats.

[The Fallen Hero]

@Gildedragon I like where you're coming from cause I feel the same way the race is just a race and sometimes they do things differently depending on the scenario I mean having an evil god doesn't really make you appealing or candidate for heroes but is that not because they are misunderstood? Orcs are warlike by nature and if described as such in the monster manual kill and fight for the sake of doing so and to expand their holdings but some of the supplement material kind of contradicts that.

The Eye of Gruumsh is one of my favorite Prcs for that reason, because in the sidebar about the PrC as an organization it mentions listening to the wise counsel of a Cleric which is kind of out how they are described in the Monster Manual. It seems to me at least that Wizards never wanted Orcs to be generic bad guys but wanted them to have layers, or maybe they wanted on the Warcraft Orcs ain't bad train which was and still is popular, to be honest I play Warcraft and I'm always an Orc well least the things that best describe them and I do think Blizzard had a good idea with not fully evil Orcs.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Little of both? Orcs as I write them are very individualist, looking for personal achievment and fulfillment, whether this means proving themselves strongest, taking anything and everything they desire, living in tune with nature, or even something as simple as being the best worker. Physical labor is praised and rewarded, and mental achievments CAN be seen as worthy, depending, but magic is almost always panned. Depending on the tribe they'll have either clerics or druids, but the only arcane classes they (grudgingly) accept are hexblades, or runescarred berserkers. Rage mages can get away with it, but they're still generally distrusted.

In what may be surprising, given my personal love of the class, there are NO orc duskblades. Orcs, good, neutral, or evil, all hate or at least dislike elves, and taking an elven class is the closest thing orcs have to blasphemy. It's more a question of pride than of actual religious beliefs or anything. Taking duskblade would mean acknowledging that elves are superior, and no orc wants to give those pointy eared ****s the satisfaction.

Evil orcs aren't the most common of the race, but they're absolutely the most well known. I imagine them very much like viking raiders. The enemy has things they want and they're the enemy, so screw them. Problem being that these particular tribes see everyone as an enemy, so everyone is fair game. Even then, it's very rare for orcs to turn on each other. Orcs aren't complete and total idiots, just less intelligent than others. Just because you killed the leader, doesn't mean they're gonna start killing each other in front of the enemy army in some idiotic bid for power. An orc army isn't united by fear of the boss, they're united by hatred of you.

[Florian]

I stick with race as culture. Orcs are mindless killing machines, Gnolls are brutal slavers, Drow are demon cultists and so on. Keeps alignment discussions and such to a minimum.

[noce]

There are many orc subraces.
Gray orcs, for example, are quite in tune with divine magic, they're less brutal, less belligerent and wiser.
I see gray orcs resemble a lot warcraft orcs.

Unfortunately, I played in a setting where orcs were mindless beasts, but had I run a campaign as a DM, I would have given orcs a soul. At least a cultural reason to be so evil, even the cliched "We struggle to survive in a world that wants us dead".

[Jay R]

You can best analyze this by asking a parallel question:

Humans, proud warrior race, or idiot killing machines?

The obvious answer is that they can be either, or any number of other things, as fits the DM's ideas for the campaign.

[Grim Reader]

Coincidentally, I did this while the forums were down:

Song of the half-Orcs:

I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no half-orcs here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's half-orc this, an' half-orc that, an' " half-breed, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, fellow human," when the swords come out to play
The swords come out to play, my boys, the swords come out to play,
O it's " Thank you, fellow human," when the swords come out to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunken human room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's half-orc this, an' half-orc that, an' " half-breed, wait outside ";
But we gets " Special couch for humans " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special couch for humans " when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock your children that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them orphans, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken fighters when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's half-orc this, and half-orc that, an` half-breed, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin green line of heroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin green line of heroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extra rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-orc's disgrace.
While it's half-orc this, an' half-orc that, an` half-breed, walk be'ind,"
But it's " Have the partys’ front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Have the partys’ front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.



Its altered from Kiplings "Tommy"

[Grytorm]

I like the idea of changing Orc's stats. If I ever do run a game (Pathfinder) the Orcs will have +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int (or maybe in a different game +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha). So still strong and a bit slow but not to the same extent as the cannon Orcs. And if the PCs ever visited the conquered Elvish homeland they will discover that the Orcs there actually are the most socially advanced while the major nations in the 'civilized' part of the world are not particularly stable and coming back from a social collapse.

There could also be mountain orcs who are more the savage stereotype, but they would still have an internal culture. I read the Faerun Faiths and Pantheons book, and with a few changes they would be really cool. Just add the Protection domain to the brutal stupid god (Gruumsh's son) and add love and family to his portfolio. Gruumsh in addition to being a god of warriors and chieftains he would also be associated with justice, though an Orcish sort of justice. The chief female deity should have magic as another domain and be a bit more respected, make it so that women in Orcish tribes are in a poor social position, but they would also have the power to turn against the more boorish Orcish men. And last, make their deity of death and disease a female, give her the epithet "Lady Cold Fingers" and make her Chaotic Neutral.


Also one other thing, this reminds me of Gnolls. I really like the idea of Gnolls as nomadic horsemen somewhat like the mongols. But I also like the description of Gnolls in the Pathfinder Monster Codex. Just the way they were described was fairly distinct and kind of creepy? Of course the solution would be to have both. Weirdly I came up with the idea that Gnolls can't run to explain why some are much more savage than others.

Finally, for the nomadic Gnollish culture I had a few ideas. They are actually very interested in perfume, they cover up their own scent much of the time to keep their animals calm (especially when trading with other humanoids) so it is a sign of prestige to use something other than dung flavored fat. And although they don't usually eat grains they do have it in alcohol and rations which are made from a mixture of blood and flour that is dried and sealed in a leather pouch.

[The Fallen Hero]

I had a thought about Orcs and Arcane magic and how they might not hate all of it be distrustful but not hate.

Bards people who can rouse the horde or tribe/clan what have you would be prized despite their arcane usage because they are important motivators. Another would potentially be sorcerers people born with inherent magical power. Distrusting more of them, but less so of say an actually wizard who is aloof and doesn't associate with the others of the tribe.

Archivists may also be prized in their society because they speak the words of the gods and although studying are just so immersed in the lore of the gods, could be an interesting character hook to play an Orc Wizard pretending to be an Archivist. Also Warmages because who doesn't love a good explosion?

I'm enjoying all the comments and I can't wait to read more!

[ngilop]

I have a huge loathing towards the 'proud warrior race' for orcs, but that is my own bias and I accept it.

In my campaign world I went with the whole D&D origin creation of orcs and rolled with that.

The reason why Orcs are angry all the time brutes is simply the product of their creation

The were formed from the drops of blood that fell from Gruumsh during his super epic fight with Corellon. That is what they have the rage racial ability and are very strong compared to other races. A:sp, why they are generally evil and chaotic... its literally in their blood.

While they are not idiot killing machines, something else I loathe for orcs, due to Gruumsh being their creator deity and putting might before right. they tend to action before though and their society does not tend to have a thought process tat extends past the next generation, uncommonly the generation after next and maybe once in a millennia three generations from now.

Orc have lost a lot of wars they should have won easily for that very simple fact. Instead of gaining objectives they just go for kills and destruction. Hey, kinda like 99% of all league player's Ive played with in my time playing that game..


Do orcs play League?

[Florian]

In my campaign world I went with the whole D&D origin creation of orcs and rolled with that.

I´m using Golarion as setting. Orcs and some other races are a "energy bleed off effect" generated by the imprisoned god of mindless destruction and rage, Rovagug. What "culture" they learn is solely based on the races they clash with. They´re pure rage, but not really stupid. Tribes that have a long history with fighting dwarves tend to be a lot more dwarf-y, the ones that clashed with Kele****es have a more pronounced "desert nomad" culture. No matter the region, they form bloodthirsty, raging hordes.

It´s also a bit important to keep certain things unique to specific races and regions to prevent too much overlap in concept. The "Proud Warrior Race" is already covered by two Hobgoblin nations, while "Noble Savage" are actually a lot of humans tribes that are deep into decline.

[Mendicant]

Neither. I don't like either trope for a full-fledged species. Any race that exists in significant numbers on the prime material gets at least a few distinct cultures. Classic MM orcs are too constrained, statwise, so I just did away with them and replaced them wholesale with Pathfinder half orcs. At this point they're actually the most "human" non-human race I have.

[Jay R]

I tend to prefer the standard Tolkien approach that is neither. They are tribal, and easily led by a strong leader. They want loot and meat, and they respect strength.

Their ideal life is part of a raiding party. They always seemed uncomfortable as part of a large army.

[lylsyly]

In My Campaign World (IMCW), Orcs are Barbarians.

Having said that, they do have Paladins of certain deities (but no clerics), Rangers, Savage Bards, and some PRCs (I make them take 3 levels of Barb before they can multiclass, but that's a different story), notice that all the classes I just mentioned are Divine Casters, my Orcs don't fear Arcane Magic, just don't have the necessary affinity to it. They are Illiterate, but have an extremely rich oral history and tradition. They are warriors; the concept - not the class), but have a highly evolved system of honor which goes from Individual to Family then to Clan (and they must adhere to it or they may be exiled, which most adventurers have been). They are not stupid, nor unwise, nor especially un-charismatic (+2 to any two of STR, DEX, or CON, -2 to any one of INT, WIS, CHA ... player's choices), but are strong, quick, and healthy.

IMCW, Orcs also do not necessarily come from the caves, mountains, et al. There are forest communities, some smallish cities, even some seafaring and arctic cultures that are all Orcish.

[LordOfCain]

I personally like how a YouTube Series (Tales From My D&D Campaign (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLylLGJF4VZY7Wya1zdWY3ExLfitPCdJEN)) does orcs. They are a very powerful, very strong race of warriors but whose numbers are very low due to them living in the desert (and other reasons). One orc can wipe out a whole town.

[The Fallen Hero]

Still enjoying all the responses and the different ways the people of gitp view Orcs!

I agree wholeheartedly with the Rich Oral History and Honor Culture some people have brought forward, I generally have most of the higher ups in tribes and clans all be able to read and write and have some of the history written down. You could spin it with an Evil Orc who wants to lead a group of not so evil Orcs on a murderous crusade by reading them the "true" history because none of them can read and of course guy knows the history and is clearly the one spinning the tales for quite some time so they are all fully indoctrinated. Could be a good idea for a plot hook or an adventure!

[Marlowe]

I finally have Orcs!

http://i.imgur.com/Z6f5Yfr.png
http://i.imgur.com/dXznJfn.png
http://i.imgur.com/zPufIJs.png
http://i.imgur.com/2pMxyZM.png
http://i.imgur.com/uVOFuPp.png
http://i.imgur.com/Rw41CDU.png
http://i.imgur.com/5NV5TGj.png
http://i.imgur.com/SOMiG8E.png
http://i.imgur.com/NOOUOO0.png
http://i.imgur.com/KobTqXd.png
http://i.imgur.com/ppG9J6q.png
http://i.imgur.com/n7hVANl.png

That only took...years.:smalleek:

[atemu1234]

There's no real consensus; in most of my games that have orcs, they tend towards the former, if with a little bit of blue-and-orange morality.

[Florian]

Hm, I don´t think I´m actually drunk enough to make this a serious topic. Why? Because talking about the role and archetype of fantasy races often entails serious talk about the human psyche, something anyone sober should avoid.

A lot of fantasy races represent facts that are true but modern (human) society resents.
- Dominance by force/violence works, but we don´t want that....
- Dominance by war/genocide also works, but don´t let us go there...

[Luccan]

I mean, looking at the generic fluff provided in non-setting 3.5 books, regular Orcs are stupid (having minuses to all mental stats), their main god encourages mindless evil and genocide, and their culture is described as brutal and evil, taking slaves and murder being their main source of supplies. So if I were to base it off the "suggested" fluff, so to speak, then yeah, they're idiot killing machines in most cases. And honestly, I have no problem with that, most of the time. If you give every race a standard alignment of at least neutral, adventurers become the bad guys, basically by default. This can also be fine, but not every game benefits from a moral quandary each time you go dungeon delving.

However, Orcs are a proud warrior race regardless, because they are, almost without exception, both proud and warriors. I'd argue against them having a cultural code of "honor" even if you just play by the stat block, because they're often chaotic evil, but that's a discussion on alignment. When it comes to Orcs, I see them as the easiest race to play as straight evil. For their society, it isn't about survival. It's about being the last thing standing on the material plane.

[The Fallen Hero]

I believe being evil still means you can have a code of honor even at chaotic evil. It all depends on how baby eating you are on the chaotic evil scale really, I do agree with being the last thing standing on the material plane but that is in part due to survival. From my perspective Orcs were born of evil, Gruumsh their god, as all things were out to get them because hey their evil they want to slay everything around them so they can be the last ones standing to survive in a world that hates them.

Even a not so Evil or Neutral aligned Orc would get this prejudice they are Orcs and their half-breed children get it as well the world hates Orcs but they still struggle to survive and seek out "vengence" on the world for perceived injustices.

[Clistenes]

You can be both, really... I don't want to mention real life examples, since my post would be deleted, but it wouldn't be too hard remember examples of people going to war with their head full of ancient warrior honor codes and/or holy war entitlement, and actually behaving just like rabid gnolls.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

layersSorry, that's ogres.

[The Fallen Hero]

You can be both, really... I don't want to mention real life examples, since my post would be deleted, but it wouldn't be too hard remember examples of people going to war with their head full of ancient warrior honor codes and/or holy war entitlement, and actually behaving just like rabid gnolls.

I agree with this sentiment, also generally falls into the parable of evil is whatever you deem it but with 3.5 its kind of locked in stone what is good and what isn't even depending on your intent behind it. Although most people I play and run for would prefer it to be based on intent and have alignment be more flexible.

[RoboEmperor]

Personally I despise proud warrior race orcs. So cliche, narmy, and boring, not to mention it gets highly political, and if the DM starts trying to make them honorable, good god it drones on and on and on.

Idiot Killing Machines on the other hand lets you slaughter them with no guilt on your conscience.

Anyways there are always exceptions to the rule so if a Player wants to play a proud warrior orc, no harm done, just not tribe after tribe of them and suddenly you think orcs are good and humans are evil and blah blah blah.

As other mentioned, 3.5 RAW fluff makes orcs idiot killing machines. There's a reason only half-orcs are a playable race in core d&d and not orcs.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I like Orcs as beings that just have an unsurmountable cultural/political clash with the "good guys". They don't need to be Secretly the Bestest of Good Guys, they don't need to be demonic hordes. They can just be like. A nomad raiding culture. Yeah, sucks to be you if they decide to take your village's stuff but they're still mortal beings with their own culture and identities and ideas, the dominant idea in which just happens to be "gang up and take what you can get", as opposed to the dominant human/elven/dwarven idea which is "gang up and use resources within a defined area as efficiently/thoroughly as possible". I don't think this puts in much of a moral quandary to fighting and killing orcs, although it - as it should - does make it morally wrong to just exterminate them on the basis of existing while being the wrong species. Fight a battle, kill some orcs, win a battle, don't go throwing their babies in rivers or whatever.

And of course you can treat them differently in different settings, or at different points in time within the same setting. Sometimes orcs are just out there raising horses or whatever, sometimes a tribe decides to sell their services as mercenaries instead of raiding, sometimes someone gathers up every orc they can find and decides to burn down the nearest kingdom and take all their stuff. Different strokes for different orcs, but their culture as a whole has a bias toward individuality, lack of structure, and taking resources from others that in D&D morality indicates a bias toward Chaos and Evil, while also valuing physical prowess over mental contemplation, as expressed in their attributes.

[The Fallen Hero]

I like Orcs as beings that just have an unsurmountable cultural/political clash with the "good guys". They don't need to be Secretly the Bestest of Good Guys, they don't need to be demonic hordes. They can just be like. A nomad raiding culture. Yeah, sucks to be you if they decide to take your village's stuff but they're still mortal beings with their own culture and identities and ideas, the dominant idea in which just happens to be "gang up and take what you can get", as opposed to the dominant human/elven/dwarven idea which is "gang up and use resources within a defined area as efficiently/thoroughly as possible". I don't think this puts in much of a moral quandary to fighting and killing orcs, although it - as it should - does make it morally wrong to just exterminate them on the basis of existing while being the wrong species. Fight a battle, kill some orcs, win a battle, don't go throwing their babies in rivers or whatever.

And of course you can treat them differently in different settings, or at different points in time within the same setting. Sometimes orcs are just out there raising horses or whatever, sometimes a tribe decides to sell their services as mercenaries instead of raiding, sometimes someone gathers up every orc they can find and decides to burn down the nearest kingdom and take all their stuff. Different strokes for different orcs, but their culture as a whole has a bias toward individuality, lack of structure, and taking resources from others that in D&D morality indicates a bias toward Chaos and Evil, while also valuing physical prowess over mental contemplation, as expressed in their attributes.

This is the basis for how I run Orcs in most settings, in fact in my last game my players had a moral dilemma over whether to let a horde led by Orcs rampage through the land because where the players were currently located was their old ancestral homeland or to fight because tons of innocents would die. They chose the latter and defeated them but the Orcs were generally chill about it relishing the idea of fighting the players but never came off as hey there's something wrong with us kinda vibe.

[Thurbane]

Personally, I run them more as dumb brutes than proud warriors...it feels more "true" to the earliest D&D depictions of them.

I can certainly see the appeal in having them be a bit Klingon-like.

Hobgoblins fill this niche in my games.

[The Fallen Hero]

I view Hobgoblins as a slight bit different Orcs are like the proud warrior horde race, where as hobgoblins come off as the tribal warrior army race. They have tactics beyond I attack and attack and kill and kill for glory and honor! Hobgoblins build battlements and analyse the tactics of the enemy now not saying an Orc can't have a barbarian horde that does the same thing but Hobgoblins are a race of soldiers that sometimes splash into warrior territory, Orcs are purely warriors.

Granted Hobgoblins are still led by the strongest but ehhhhhh, there's enough differences in these depictions in my opinion.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hobgoblins strike me as a settled, organized military culture (ruling over a lower caste of goblins, typically) vs. the orcs' nomadic tribal culture. Law vs. Chaos among mook "enemy" species.

[The Fallen Hero]

I agree with that 100% settled military don't need to move around except to expand their holdings as it were!