Can air pass through a Wall of Force or a (windowless) Forcage?

[Graypairofsocks]

Can air pass through a Wall of Force, or a Windowless Forcecage.

My guess is no.

[Zexionthefirst]

My immediate answer is no, air can not pass through a Wall of Force or Forcecage. That is purely how I would rule it at the moment I read your question.

Actually looking into it, I can't seem to find anything in the books that support that conclusion. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but I can't find anything that says a Forcecage is airtight- so air could be seeping in. Or the spell itself could be generating air for the inhabitants. There's nothing saying either of those rules are correct, or wrong.

I searched the Rules Compendium, and didn't see anything on the subject. So, long story short, I don't know. I'm mainly posting so I get a notification when someone more knowledgeable then myself posts

[Zanos]

No, not even gaseous creatures can pass through a force effect. But I'd also say that creatures trapped inside a forcecage do not suffocate because of magic (and the spell doesn't say that they do).

[Zexionthefirst]

No, not even gaseous creatures can pass through a force effect. But I'd also say that creatures trapped inside a forcecage do not suffocate because of magic (and the spell doesn't say that they do).

If I'm missing something, please let me know. But I can't find that first part anywhere. The descriptions of both Forcecage and Wall of Force make no mention of gaseous creatures. The entries on Gaseous creatures make no mention of force effects (except that they keep bonuses to their AC from force effects).

When I Ctrl+f search "force effect" or "force descriptor", I don't find any mention of gaseous creatures. I searched the Players Handbook, Players Handbook II, Dungeon Master's Guide, DMG II, and the Rules Compendium. Is this just your ruling, or am I missing something in one of those books? Or am I looking in the wrong place?

Wall of Force, and by extension Forcecage, block spells from passing through them, so the could stop a magical gaseous creature, but would not stop air. Gaseous creatures are also mist, and while their is water in air, water does not equal air. So, even if gaseous creatures are physically stopped by Force effects, the rules don't say air is.

I'm not arguing that gaseous creatures can get out of a windowless forcecage. I'm saying that the reasons they can't get out are not reasons that would apply to air.

Also of note (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist):

Pass through Wall of Force
This allows a character to find a gap of weakness in a wall of force (or similar force effect) and squeeze through it.

This further lends credence to the idea that neither are airtight. Ultimately, it's going to be up to the DM to rule. There's nothing actually written, just house rules and such. Or I could be missing something blaring obvious, in which case I'm sure someone will correct me. At the end of the day, it's no skin off my back if I'm wrong here. Just means I've learned something new. :smallsmile:

[Zanos]

Epic skill checks don't follow any logic. And other uses of Epic skills are explicitly magical, like Diplomacy. And being able to balance on clouds with epic Balance doesn't mean that a cloud can actually support the weight of a person.

AFB, I'll check my books later.

[Psyren]

I would say it's airtight, but traps just enough air inside that it's not a problem.

"How much air is that?"
"Enough."

[JNAProductions]

I would say it's airtight, but traps just enough air inside that it's not a problem.

"How much air is that?"
"Enough."

There are actual rules for suffocation. A full length Wall of Force or Forcecage WILL KILL most people who need to breathe.

[SirNibbles]

No, not even gaseous creatures can pass through a force effect. But I'd also say that creatures trapped inside a forcecage do not suffocate because of magic (and the spell doesn't say that they do).

Regardless of the spell saying they do, there are rules for suffocation in enclosed spaces of a limited volume, as defined in Underdark, page 107.

"Any closed space that is reasonably airtight can quickly become stale or depleted. In general, a Medium creature depletes about 1,000 cubic feet of air (a 10-foot cube) every 6 hours. A Small creature requires one-half as much air, and a Large creature requires four times as much. Air becomes stale when it is halfway to depletion."

Stale air requires Fort saves vs fatigue (and eventually exhaustion). An exhausted character in stale air takes 1d6 nonlethal damage every 15 minutes.

Depleted air just makes you suffocate, dealing 1d6 damage every 15 minutes until you fall unconscious and then killing you 2 rounds later.

[Psyren]

There are actual rules for suffocation. A full length Wall of Force or Forcecage WILL KILL most people who need to breathe.

Depends on whether you consider the spell effect to be a "chamber." As noted upthread, there is wiggle room not to do so.

[Zexionthefirst]

Regardless of the spell saying they do, there are rules for suffocation in enclosed spaces of a limited volume, as defined in Underdark, page 107.

"Any closed space that is reasonably airtight can quickly become stale or depleted. In general, a Medium creature depletes about 1,000 cubic feet of air (a 10-foot cube) every 6 hours. A Small creature requires one-half as much air, and a Large creature requires four times as much. Air becomes stale when it is halfway to depletion."

Stale air requires Fort saves vs fatigue (and eventually exhaustion). An exhausted character in stale air takes 1d6 nonlethal damage every 15 minutes.

Depleted air just makes you suffocate, dealing 1d6 damage every 15 minutes until you fall unconscious and then killing you 2 rounds later.

For clarification, are you saying that there are some spell that do say they suffocate, or are you saying that the either of the spells Wall of Force or Forcecage do say that they suffocate?

Second, you wouldn't need the rules in Underdark. Unless I'm misreading something, it would make more sense to simply use the rules for Slow Suffocation in the DMG (pg 304).


A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last.

Moving on: But which of us are the Buffalo?

There are actual rules for suffocation. A full length Wall of Force or Forcecage WILL KILL most people who need to breathe.

If it's air tight, yes. The contention is if it's air tight. For Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), for example, all it says is that it blocks line of effect (which is why breath weapons don't work) and magic can't pass through it (and this is why Gaseous Form can't pass through it, it's a duration spell, not instantaneous).

It blocks ethereal creatures because force effects extent to the ethereal plane. Aide from that, it blocks material creatures. It doesn't say it blocks air. I mean, you can still talk through a wall of force, so why couldn't you breath?

Now, all that being said, it's going to be up to a DM to make the call. If they feel it is air tight, that's their prerogative. As I mentioned in my first post, that's how I would rule it on reflex. I'm just trying to point out that there is no information on force effects that say they block air, and the spells themselves do not say anything about air.

[Florian]

There are actual rules for suffocation. A full length Wall of Force or Forcecage WILL KILL most people who need to breathe.

The actual question seems more to be if it´s intended that using rules element A should trigger rules element B or if you extrapolate something based on the purely descriptive element that´s actually not there, but somehow makes sense when talking about pure physics.

I mean, think about the "Suffocation" rules a bit, than take a look at regular combat spells that have the rider to set targets on fire, or something ongoing like a firestorm spell. If you´d trigger the environmental hazard rules on those, fighting in an enclosed dungeon would become pretty dangerous. Incidentally, same problem with the "domed" version of some wall spells.
You also don´t start to suffocate in a room that´s complete covered with a cloud-type spell, when by common logic, all air must have been pushed outside that area, and we also don´t simulate draft and backdraft.

So, I´d say that no matter that the description of some spells should trigger some follow-up rules from a simulation standpoint, I´d rather go by when that trigger is not especially called out, don´t do it as it´s not been intended then.

[SirNibbles]

For clarification, are you saying that there are some spell that do say they suffocate, or are you saying that the either of the spells Wall of Force or Forcecage do say that they suffocate?

Second, you wouldn't need the rules in Underdark. Unless I'm misreading something, it would make more sense to simply use the rules for Slow Suffocation in the DMG (pg 304).



Moving on: But which of us are the Buffalo?


If it's air tight, yes. The contention is if it's air tight. For Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), for example, all it says is that it blocks line of effect (which is why breath weapons don't work) and magic can't pass through it (and this is why Gaseous Form can't pass through it, it's a duration spell, not instantaneous).

It blocks ethereal creatures because force effects extent to the ethereal plane. Aide from that, it blocks material creatures. It doesn't say it blocks air. I mean, you can still talk through a wall of force, so why couldn't you breath?

Now, all that being said, it's going to be up to a DM to make the call. If they feel it is air tight, that's their prerogative. As I mentioned in my first post, that's how I would rule it on reflex. I'm just trying to point out that there is no information on force effects that say they block air, and the spells themselves do not say anything about air.

1. I'm saying the spell doesn't have to say it makes you suffocate. If it creates a "reasonably airtight" space, the rules from Underdark (and the Dungeon Master's Guide) come into effect. Forcecage (and Wall of Force used to trap someone in a corner) would create a reasonably airtight space, in my opinion. Other DMs may rule otherwise.

Note: The Underdark rules actually mention the Slow Suffocation rules from the DMG as what happens when air goes from stale to depleted. As I said, you just take nonlethal damage until you drop unconscious and then you die.

2. You can talk through completely solid objects because the sound waves vibrate the object. If you've ever taken your car through an automated car wash, you'll know it's reasonably airtight/watertight but you can still hear sounds from outside.

3. A Wall of Force is a solid object. It should block air just the same as a stone wall with no gaps would.

[Inevitability]

I mean, you can still talk through a wall of force, so why couldn't you breath?

The fact that these two are not mutually inclusive aside, could you tell me where it says you can talk through walls of force?

[Zexionthefirst]

1. I'm saying the spell doesn't have to say it makes you suffocate. If it creates a "reasonably airtight" space, the rules from Underdark (and the Dungeon Master's Guide) come into effect. Forcecage (and Wall of Force used to trap someone in a corner) would create a reasonably airtight space, in my opinion. Other DMs may rule otherwise.

Yes, you're correct that if a DM wants to rule that it is reasonably airtight, then it would be. But it's the DM's call. If you run a game, and make that call, I'm not going to argue with you. As I've said, it's the same call I would make. But if Joe Smith is running a game, and rules otherwise, his ruling is right. Not because of Rule 0, but because the spell is vague enough that he is.

(Minor note: I missed last line of your post when I started typing. I'm seeing it now, and it seems we agree completely on this issue.)



2. You can talk through completely solid objects because the sound waves vibrate the object. If you've ever taken your car through an automated car wash, you'll know it's reasonably airtight/watertight but you can still hear sounds from outside.

So, Both spells are called out as being "immobile", "immovable", and "immune to damage of all kinds". That makes it far more likely that a Wall of Force would not move from vibrations that that it would be airtight. In fact, it would be immune to any kind of sonic damage, so why wouldn't it be immune to sonic vibrations?

(Also, I can leave my car in a an automated car wash- water doesn't get in, and I don't suffocate. Now, perhaps I just haven't done it long enough? The layman in me assumes I would not suffocate, but I don't know for sure.)


3. A Wall of Force is a solid object. It should block air just the same as a stone wall with no gaps would.

Okay, this is where my previous mentions of looking up force effects or force descriptors is relevant. We can assume it's a "solid object", but realistically it's just solid force. And the only thing we know about force (when coming from force spells) is that they're magic. And that they cross into the ethereal plane.

Moreover, we know that Force effects have "gaps of weakness." That's how you can escape non-magically from a Wall of Force. If you can physically escape, no matter how ridiculous it may seen, why wouldn't air be able to pass into and out of an area effected by a Forcecage?


The fact that these two are not mutually inclusive aside, could you tell me where it says you can talk through walls of force?
It doesn't. It gives no indication either way, and this was a pure assumption on my part. Again, it falls under into my claim that the spells are written in such a way that it's full up to the DM's ruling.

Though, I would personally argue (as I did above) that a Wall of Force would not be affected by sonic vibrations, and as such, if you were in a Forcecage and air couldn't flow in and out, you wouldn't be able to talk through.

[Florian]

When taking the "it blocks everything" blurb literally, that would also include all kinds of wavelengths as well as hard radiation. That´d be hell of a shielding. Now it does already basic block some energy types, from electricity to cold, and so on, up to including other force effects.

So, how can it be that it´s able to block everything, while at the same time having gaps to wiggle through? And, far as I know, most force effects seem to be transparent?

[Inevitability]

So, how can it be that it´s able to block everything, while at the same time having gaps to wiggle through? And, far as I know, most force effects seem to be transparent?

1. There's plenty of ways to explain an Epic Escape Artist check being able to penetrate a WoF other than 'it has tiny holes in it'. Is your explanation for DC 120 balance checks that each cloud has small patches of solid ground in it?

2. A Wall of Force is invisible rather than transparent. D&D invisibility is a strange and hard-to-explain phenomenon that's far more complicated than simply bending light, and it's entirely possible for a Wall of Force to be both invisible and capable of blocking the entire electromagnetic spectrum, strange as it may sound.

[Segev]

I, personally, would rule that walls of force are air tight. There's just nothing in their description that suggests otherwise, to me. And everything about them suggests it, to me, as well, since there's no gap in them. You can't fan air through them. They don't allow convection through them (or fire would translate).

My less-analytic mental image of them is indestructible glass. My more analytic examination has them literally be force fields, in that there is an infinite force at a finite plane radiating outwards, such that any object passing through that plane has exactly enough force to negate all motion in that direction applied to it as a force normal to that direction. It is thus like a infinitesimal gradient magnetic field that applies to all material and energy.

(Force damage, likewise, is outward-spiking force fields moving through objects, literally disrupting them in every possible way, crushing, tearing, stretching as they pass through.)

[Elkad]

It doesn't say. So in my games, Wall of Force is watertight, airtight, and prevents the transfer of heat, vibration (sound), and most electromagnetic energy. The only thing that passes through it is visible light (which means visible-spectrum lasers or other really bright lights pass through it...), and if a player asks (one has), I allow him to make it prevent even light.

I haven't had a player ask to let it only pass a specific color of light, but I'd allow that as well. Probably with a minor spell research fee.

[Doctor Awkward]

Oh... physics...
Fun...

1. Watertight =/= Airtight
Relatively speaking, H2O molecules are quite large. A seal that keeps out a molecule of water could easily not be tight enough to keep out a molecule of any given gas, such as N2 (nitrogen) and O2 (oxygen) which make up about 99% of the composition of breathable air which also includes dozens of other minute amounts of gasses, as well as half a percent or more of water vapor depending on the relative humidity.

2. Sound is energy
Sound is acoustic energy, and as with any other form of energy, it cannot be destroyed: it can only converted to another form of energy. Sounds die away naturally because their vibrational energy is converted to (a very small amount of) heat, either due to friction in the air itself or in moving (vibrating) the objects it encounters. Sound also reduces in level the further it travels from the source, as its energy becomes spread over a larger area, something that is represented as the inverse square law, due to the fact that the sound intensity of an omnidirectional source reduces relative to the square of the distance from the source. More precisely, sound is vibrational energy in the audio frequency range that passes through the air, and can also be conducted via solids or liquids. Though airborne sound cannot escape directly from an airtight environment, its vibrational energy causes the structure of that environment to move and they in turn launch new soundwaves which can be heard outside. Incidentally, the sound isolation provided by a structure reduces with frequency. This is quite logical because it clearly takes more energy to make a wall vibrate back and forth a thousand times in one second than it does to make it vibrate back and forth say 20 times. It's a simple matter of inertia. For every octave drop in pitch the amount of sound isolation is roughly halved, so while high frequencies are easy to keep in or out, low frequencies are far more difficult to contain. This is why when you walk outside a night club you can still hear the bass and kick drum but little else.

In any case, as materials of infinite stiffness, such as is found in a Wall of Force, do not exist in real life, it is impossible to guess with any accuracy what would happen in such a situation. But one could hypothesize that if the wall cannot be affected by any form of energy, then it is likely exempt from the laws of physics, and thus any fully formed container of Force would be completely soundproof, preventing anything emanating from one side from being heard by anything on the opposite side. Of course, such a construct would also become a perfectly isolated system, exchanging neither matter nor energy with it's surrounding environment, and its contents would remain in the precisely the state it was when the barrier was created, perfectly insulated from the environment outside.


Practically? As the spell description does not indicate it interferes with how the occupant experiences the surrounding environment in any way, it is very likely neither watertight, airtight, nor soundproof. And if air can pass through a Forcecage, and so can sound.

[S@tanicoaldo]

It allows air in as long it has no way to harm you.

How does it know it can harm you? Magic.

[Lazymancer]

Airtight.

Obviously, you'll need GM's confirmation, since it is not stated explicitly (AFAIK), but it is a ruling GM is supposed to make, since:

1) it's easier to remember (follows from the general qualities of force effects)
2) consequently, will be ruled as such by most groups/designers (you get "shared experience")
3) there are specific cases of force effects being airtight (ex: Force Chest spell from SpC).

[Psyren]

It's worth pointing out that Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) is a solid enclosure of force that still somehow lets air through. Depending on your point of view, this means either:

(a) RS says it lets air through and FC doesn't, therefore you can suffocate in FC.
(b) The fact that RS can let air through means that spell effects don't count as "chambers."

[SirNibbles]

It's worth pointing out that Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) is a solid enclosure of force that still somehow lets air through. Depending on your point of view, this means either:

(a) RS says it lets air through and FC doesn't, therefore you can suffocate in FC.
(b) The fact that RS can let air through means that spell effects don't count as "chambers."

The fact that RS is min/level might affect that. A sphere large enough to contain a 6 foot tall (medium) person would need to be at least 7 feet in diameter (180 cubic feet in volume), meaning you could breathe for at least 30 minutes before the air is stale and 60 before it's depleted.

If you trapped someone in a RS underwater or in lava, I don't think they'd be able to breathe normally.

[Psyren]

The fact that RS is min/level might affect that. A sphere large enough to contain a 6 foot tall (medium) person would need to be at least 7 feet in diameter (180 cubic feet in volume), meaning you could breathe for at least 30 minutes before the air is stale and 60 before it's depleted.

That text remains regardless of the spell's duration. So if you somehow got it to last for several hours, it would still apply.

[Barbarian Horde]

I don't think so.
RAW
It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones

---------------------------

I've personally used it to block an air elemental before so.... anyways I wouldn't bother unless you run into a spell, class, or item that specifically mentions it can bypass wall of force, otherwise assume that it's blocked.

[Barbarian Horde]

It's worth pointing out that Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) is a solid enclosure of force that still somehow lets air through. Depending on your point of view, this means either:

(a) RS says it lets air through and FC doesn't, therefore you can suffocate in FC.
(b) The fact that RS can let air through means that spell effects don't count as "chambers."


At no point does it say it lets air in. So I agree with option A, but then I disagree about the suffocating thing. It says you continue to breath normally. Magic is a wonderful thing.

Your ship is sinking, and your unable to get out the cabin before your cabin door is stuck shut because of the sheer water pressure on the other side. So you cast RS so you don't die immediately when the water comes bursting in. The room fills, but your okay, the RS didn't let the water in and your still breathing normally.

Change the situation and replace water with lave, liquid metal, chemicals, etc. RS still protects you.

[Lazymancer]

It's worth pointing out that Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) is a solid enclosure of force that still somehow lets air through. Depending on your point of view, this means either:

(a) RS says it lets air through and FC doesn't, therefore you can suffocate in FC.
(b) The fact that RS can let air through means that spell effects don't count as "chambers."
Or neither. It doesn't say anything about letting air through. In fact, it explicitly clarifies that nothing can pass through.

SirNibbles more or less explained it already, but I'll add two more variants for clarity:

(c) the reason for simply "being able to breathe" is ergonomics. It's practically impossible to create sphere with sufficiently long duration. CL 7 sphere lasts 7 minutes, but has enough air for Medium creature to last 65 minutes - before it starts getting piddly non-lethal damage.

Not only you'll have to cast Sphere at CL 65 (or 33, with Extended), you also need to apply Caster Level to duration only, while keeping diameter at CL 7. I'm not sure it is possible RAW.

(d) it could be that part of Resilient Sphere spell is to simply allow one to breathe (ex: Deep Breath, aslo SpC). After all, RAW it allows one to breathe underwater/in lava or in hard vacuum (which had been abused after one teleport 1200 miles upwards).

[Psyren]

Or neither. It doesn't say anything about letting air through. In fact, it explicitly clarifies that nothing can pass through.

"Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

Normally, meaning, without suffocating.

[Lazymancer]

"Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally."

Normally, meaning, without suffocating.
Yes. And I explained how subject can breathe normally, if nothing (not even air) can pass through.

What's your point?

[Florian]

I wonder how it´d look if we try to apply the same logic to other force effects out there. Mage Armor seems to be a very suicidal spell then. No air, pent up heat, and so on.

[Psyren]

Yes. And I explained how subject can breathe normally, if nothing (not even air) can pass through.

What's your point?

My point is that both of your bullets are wrong. I covered (c) already, that text still exists regardless of duration. And for (d), the key word is "normally" - if you're in an airless environment when you cast it, you would normally need another means to breathe in the first place, preventing RAW silliness.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[SirNibbles]

My point is that both of your bullets are wrong. I covered (c) already, that text still exists regardless of duration. And for (d), the key word is "normally" - if you're in an airless environment when you cast it, you would normally need another means to breathe in the first place, preventing RAW silliness.

Hope that clears it up for you.

By that same token, "normally" would mean suffocating if/when the air became stale/depleted.

[Deophaun]

If it's air tight, yes. The contention is if it's air tight. For Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), for example, all it says is that it blocks line of effect (which is why breath weapons don't work) and magic can't pass through it (and this is why Gaseous Form can't pass through it, it's a duration spell, not instantaneous).
Are you saying that, no matter how high your Escape Artist check, you cannot pass through a wall of force if you are the subject of a spell? Longstrider will keep that epic rogue with +200 to his EA check safely contained? Because otherwise, gaseous form would allow you to pass through if the thing is not air tight, as the spell doesn't have to pass through to wall to hit its target (you).

[Elkad]

I wonder how it´d look if we try to apply the same logic to other force effects out there. Mage Armor seems to be a very suicidal spell then. No air, pent up heat, and so on.

Mage Armor is obviously not 100% coverage, or you'd be immune to external damage while it was up.

It has gaps, or flickers constantly, or something.

Ooh, can I escape-artist out of my mage armor and leave it standing there empty?


Breathing normally in a Resilient Sphere is just flavor text as far as I'm concerned. If you are underwater holding your breath when you cast it, it would still be full of water and "breathing normally" would mean you'd drown. Same with staying in it until it runs out of oxygen. You can breathe all you want, if the CO2 content is too high (or oxygen too low, but that takes longer), you start suffocating anyway.

The alternatives are that it allows some slow transfer, but that means poison gas would seep in. Or that it magically creates breathable air (and removes toxic CO2) somehow. Summoned from somewhere? Direct matter conversion?

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.

[Psyren]

By that same token, "normally" would mean suffocating if/when the air became stale/depleted.

Suffocating is not breathing. It is in fact the opposite.

[Segev]

While it is not definitive, the fact that resilient sphere goes to the effort of explicitly stating that the subject can breathe normally within it is a hint that the writer expects that, without that clause, the subject might not be expected to be able to.

You don't see, for example, the enlarge person spell bothering to note that the subject can breathe normally, because there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. If a spell calls out "breathing normally" as if it were a noteworthy exception, it suggests that absent that clause, it might not be true.

For that reason - again, while not definitive - I am pretty confident that it is expected that force walls are normally airtight.

[Psyren]

While it is not definitive, the fact that resilient sphere goes to the effort of explicitly stating that the subject can breathe normally within it is a hint that the writer expects that, without that clause, the subject might not be expected to be able to.

You don't see, for example, the enlarge person spell bothering to note that the subject can breathe normally, because there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. If a spell calls out "breathing normally" as if it were a noteworthy exception, it suggests that absent that clause, it might not be true.

For that reason - again, while not definitive - I am pretty confident that it is expected that force walls are normally airtight.

Indeed, I highlighted this very stance as a possibility (post #22 option A.)

I brought it up however because it proves that magic can make force effects not be airtight despite blocking line of effect. How does RS work? Magic.

[Segev]

Indeed, I highlighted this very stance as a possibility (post #22 option A.)

I brought it up however because it proves that magic can make force effects not be airtight despite blocking line of effect. How does RS work? Magic.

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.

[zergling.exe]

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.

They didn't it's the next spell: otiluke's telekinetic sphere.

[Psyren]

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.

That's an excellent point - but it then raises a different question. If one Evocation [Force] effect is capable of conjuring up breathable air out of nowhere for its inhabitants, why not another?

Sure, Forcecage doesn't say it does this - but it also doesn't say the inhabitants suffocate either, so I would still extend that functionality to it.

[SirNibbles]

Suffocating is not breathing. It is in fact the opposite.

It's what happens when you try to breathe 'normally' in an unbreathable environment.

[Psyren]

It's what happens when you try to breathe 'normally' in an unbreathable environment.

The operative phrase in your response is "try to." Trying to breathe is not the same as breathing. Breathing means you've both tried and succeeded.

[Segev]

That's an excellent point - but it then raises a different question. If one Evocation [Force] effect is capable of conjuring up breathable air out of nowhere for its inhabitants, why not another?Technically, it doesn't say it conjures up the air, either. It just says the subject can breathe normally. Given that it's an Evocation spell, it's probably evoking whatever property of "breathableness" the atmosphere possesses, in much the same way fireball evokes fire energy (rather than conjuring real fire). Of course, this is pure speculation; the text simply tells us that the subject can breathe normally, not how.


Sure, Forcecage doesn't say it does this - but it also doesn't say the inhabitants suffocate either, so I would still extend that functionality to it.That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely. Forcecage is silent on the issue, which is why we turn to other rules to see what applies. This is where we get into the "Is it an enclosed space?" question. We have rules for suffocating in such spaces.

Nothing, to my knowledge, explicitly states that a cube enclosed by solid walls of force is air tight, but everything suggests to me that it is, so I would rule it so.

[Psyren]

That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely. Forcecage is silent on the issue, which is why we turn to other rules to see what applies. This is where we get into the "Is it an enclosed space?" question. We have rules for suffocating in such spaces.

We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

[Segev]

We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

Oh, we're left to a DM's call whether an enclosed space with no openings ten feet on a side constitutes a "chamber" or not. Definitely.

[Psyren]

Oh, we're left to a DM's call whether an enclosed space with no openings ten feet on a side constitutes a "chamber" or not. Definitely.

Indeed. As noted in prior examples, Force appears capable of properties that regular enclosures don't share.

[Segev]

Indeed. As noted in prior examples, Force appears capable of properties that regular enclosures don't share.

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a "regular" enclosure. Only that it's an enclosure. But yes, it's a DM's call.

[Elkad]

And why did they ditch the old mobile version? Rolling around in your Otiluke's Force Hamster Ball was great fun in earlier editions.


They didn't it's the next spell: otiluke's telekinetic sphere.

Nah, not the same thing. Limited to 30' round, only if you concentrate, etc.
Having it move freely was fun.

[Segev]

Is resilient sphere no longer hamster-ball-able, then?

[SirNibbles]

That's not how spells work. Spells work as they say they do. Resilient sphere explicitly states that the subject breathes freely.

Not quite true- it says "the subject can breathe normally". To me that means the rules for suffocation work as they are written and the spell has no effect on breathing- aka normal.


We have such rules for "chambers," not spell effects. As you say, spells do what they say they do. So where does Forcecage say it creates a chamber, or that the occupants are at risk of suffocation?

The rules for suffocation say 'reasonably airtight' spaces can become stale/depleted. I think 'no way in and no way out' (with no qualifiers) means it is 'reasonably airtight'.

[Elkad]

Is resilient sphere no longer hamster-ball-able, then?

Correct. Which isn't the original.
And now that I look, I see it's changed back again in 5e


The globe can be physically moved either by people outside the globe or by the struggles of those within


but the sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.


An enclosed creature can use its action to push against the sphere’s walls and thus roll the sphere at up to half the creature’s speed. Similarly, the globe can be picked up and moved by other creatures.

[Thurbane]

Does that mean Resilient Sphere is the cure for Aboleth Mucus?

[Barbarian Horde]

Actually, nothing in resilient sphere suggests that the ability to breathe is due to lack of airtightness. Quite the opposite, since the clause applies even if the subject (and the sphere) is immersed under water. The magic must actually be MAINTAINING the breathability of its internal atmosphere. Not merely permitting air through its force wall.


If I cast this spell, right as the world turned to fire due to some god's wrath. Your new location is at the bottom of a sea of flames with no breathable air as all the oxygen is being used as fuel for the fire.. I will continue to breath normally as per RAW and that will not change until the spell ends. If I'm not breathing then I did not cast RS. I must of casted the flagrant version of the spell that lets you suffocate.

Rules for suffocation could apply to RS for being airtight if the spell description didn't specifically stipulate that breathing normally shall continue while you are in the RS.

[Lazymancer]

Rules for suffocation could apply to RS for being airtight if the spell description didn't specifically stipulate that breathing normally shall continue while you are in the RS.
No, they couldn't. Do the goddamn math.

It takes 65 minutes to start getting nonlethal damage in 7 ft. sphere. Except it's CL 7 and will last only 7 minutes. If you try to increase CL, duration will increase in linear progression, while the volume of air inside - in cubic.

To put it simply: doubling CL will double duration and increase volume of air eightfold.

You can't suffocate in Sphere unless you start homeruling things.

[SirNibbles]

No, they couldn't. Do the goddamn math.

It takes 65 minutes to start getting nonlethal damage in 7 ft. sphere. Except it's CL 7 and will last only 7 minutes. If you try to increase CL, duration will increase in linear progression, while the volume of air inside - in cubic.

To put it simply: doubling CL will double duration and increase volume of air eightfold.

You can't suffocate in Sphere unless you start homeruling things.

If you light torches inside, it uses up oxygen equal to 1 medium creature per torch. 2 torches = 3x the oxygen use

[Lazymancer]

Mein Gott, you are right.

If you hold a torch in each hand, third one in your teeth, and also have your clothes set on fire, suffocation rules will kick in right before Extended Sphere (14 min) winks out and you'll get your 1d6 non-lethal damage. Provided you will not try to extinguish you clothes and they will not burn away, of course.

[Segev]

Whereas, since the spell does specify that the subject can breathe normally, it could be rendered permanent and never cause him to suffocate.

I'll note that making cursed versions of rings of sustenance (such that they cannot be taken off) and shoving somebody in a permanent resilient sphere at the bottom of some form of oubliette is considered an adequate torture for most personally-hated foes.