Which full spellcaster makes the best character in melee combat?

[krunchyfrogg]

I understand a dedicated warrior will do better.

What AL legal full spellcaster makes the best melee warrior?

War Cleric?
Valor Bard?
Bladesinger?

[nickl_2000]

What's your goal? Tanking? Control, but still can take abuse? Or straight out damage per round?

[Sirdar]

I understand a dedicated warrior will do better.

What AL legal full spellcaster makes the best melee warrior?

War Cleric?
Valor Bard?
Bladesinger?

Best of the three above? Or is any AL legal full spellcaster (like Bladelock) in the discussion as well?

[krunchyfrogg]

Best of the three above? Or is any AL legal full spellcaster (like Bladelock) in the discussion as well?

Any.

Bladelocks are a fine option.

[Pichu]

Of all, I prefer the Bladelock or Valor Bard because FavSoul/BladeSinger/etc are to squishy. Overall, I prefer Bladelock because
a) Warlocks
b) You are always armed
c) You get Extra Attack at 5th level
d) You can shore up ranged vulnerability with the most powerful cantrip in the game. Enemy too close? Blast him with an EB volley and run to the cleric for heals!

[krunchyfrogg]

Of all, I prefer the Bladelock or Valor Bard because FavSoul/BladeSinger/etc are to squishy. Overall, I prefer Bladelock because
a) Warlocks
b) You are always armed
c) You get Extra Attack at 5th level
d) You can shore up ranged vulnerability with the most powerful cantrip in the game. Enemy too close? Blast him with an EB volley and run to the cleric for heals!
I always liked the idea of the bladelock, but the medium armor hurts. Plus, EB does more damage than most melee attacks. I mean, you don't have to optimize EB, I guess.

[Vaz]

Blade Hexlock until you get to multiclass.

Then it's Blade Hexlock/something

As a spellcaster, it sucks though, like all Warlocks.

[Jamesps]

I've never had the chance to try it at high levels, but I always thought nature clerics made the best melee casters. You can hit people with your casting stat using your club, and use spirit guardians to punish everyone that gets stuck in melee range with you. Like most melee oriented clerics you get smiting, but you're the only cleric that doesn't have to waste stat increases on increasing strength or dexterity to use it. The stats you need line up perfectly with dwarves which means you can wear heavy armor without putting any of your good stats in strength, further allowing you to focus your wisdom and constitution.

With just one spell your damage output over time should rival or surpass any of the other melee oriented classes.

[jaappleton]

I always liked the idea of the bladelock, but the medium armor hurts. Plus, EB does more damage than most melee attacks. I mean, you don't have to optimize EB, I guess.

Bladelocks don't get Medium Armor. Only Light.

However...

VHuman Bladelock
Start with Medium Armor Master
Set your Dex at 14

Now without a Shield, you're at 16AC. Not... great.

But with the Darkness / Devil's Sight combo, enemies roll to hit you with Disadvantage. And you'd always have Advantage. So if you can get GWM... You're cleaving through enemies, and constantly refilling your Temp HP (if you picked Fiend). If you go Archfey, you can use Fey Presence to send enemies away if you start to feel overwhelmed.

[Vaz]

Bladelocks don't care about AC. They have Mirror Image and Armour of Agathys. Not to say that they don't need to worry about it, and can take advantage of it, but Hexblades with Medium Armour go wonders.

[Spiritchaser]

I've never played AL, but it's my understanding that Hexblade would not be permitted... Sadly...

That having been said, Multiclassing would, so a STR/CHA/CON Fighter 1 bladelock X would still be fine.

If UA were to be allowed, then a half elven F1, Hexblade bladelock X with elven accuracy and GWM is very strong, I have a player with one now. Its a bit tight for invocations, but he can just tear the faces off things with his sword

[Pichu]

I've never had the chance to try it at high levels, but I always thought nature clerics made the best melee casters. You can hit people with your casting stat using your club, and use spirit guardians to punish everyone that gets stuck in melee range with you. Like most melee oriented clerics you get smiting, but you're the only cleric that doesn't have to waste stat increases on increasing strength or dexterity to use it. The stats you need line up perfectly with dwarves which means you can wear heavy armor without putting any of your good stats in strength, further allowing you to focus your wisdom and constitution.

With just one spell your damage output over time should rival or surpass any of the other melee oriented classes.

True! But then add Spiritual Weapon... (I'm AFB, so sorry if 2 any of those are conc.)

Bladelocks don't get Medium Armor. Only Light.

However...

VHuman Bladelock
Start with Medium Armor Master
Set your Dex at 14

Now without a Shield, you're at 16AC. Not... great.

But with the Darkness / Devil's Sight combo, enemies roll to hit you with Disadvantage. And you'd always have Advantage. So if you can get GWM... You're cleaving through enemies, and constantly refilling your Temp HP (if you picked Fiend). If you go Archfey, you can use Fey Presence to send enemies away if you start to feel overwhelmed.

Just start Fighter 1 then MC into (Hex)Bladelock and all your problems are solved! Also, to save spell slots, be a Half-Drow.

[jaappleton]

Bladelocks don't care about AC. They have Mirror Image and Armour of Agathys. Not to say that they don't need to worry about it, and can take advantage of it, but Hexblades with Medium Armour go wonders.

I briefly played a Hexblade myself. Using Darkness / Devil's Sight, almost everything missed me.

Then my DM threw some Fireballs at me, complete with saving throws, and I didn't last long :smallbiggrin:

[Pichu]

I briefly played a Hexblade myself. Using Darkness / Devil's Sight, almost everything missed me.

Then my DM threw some Fireballs at me, complete with saving throws, and I didn't last long :smallbiggrin:

Better than Favored Soul or Bladesinger :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

Better than Favored Soul or Bladesinger :smallbiggrin:

Actually Bladesinger gets Absorb Elements, so I might've been alright... >_>

Seriously don't get why Sorcs don't get that one.

[lperkins2]

If you weren't talking AL legal, stone sorcerer does amazingly well (18AC at level 1, quicken for a BA attack with booming blade at level 3). For AL, I'd probably go life cleric. The impressive self healing abilities make it rather hard to bring down, a sorcerer 3 dip for metamagic is probably not a bad idea though.

[Jamesps]

True! But then add Spiritual Weapon... (I'm AFB, so sorry if 2 any of those are conc.)



Spiritual weapon doesn't require concentration, but I didn't mention it because I don't like relying on two spells per combat. It's a personal preference I suppose, but I'm paranoid about running dry on resources when I play casters.

[jaappleton]

Clerics are pretty darn awesome.

Their medium / heavy armor with shields makes them damn tanky. Their Channel Divinity abilities can drastically stretch their resources. The d8 hit dice certainly doesn't hurt. Depending on the Domain, you can drastically shore up some weaknesses in their spell list.


Spiritual weapon doesn't require concentration, but I didn't mention it because I don't like relying on two spells per combat. It's a personal preference I suppose, but I'm paranoid about running dry on resources when I play casters.

You and me both!

But the Cleric is pretty great with resources because their spells seem to go farther.

Life has a Channel Divinity to heal, Tempest ensures max damage to get more done with less spell slots, Light Clerics get a team-friendly AoE, etc.

[EvilAnagram]

Hexblade is not AL legal.

Valor Bards are okay, but you'll mostly be throwing down buffs and control spells while you plink away with some okay attacks.

Tempest and War Clerics are massive tanks with some decent control spells, blasting, healing, and buffs. The best part is that quite a lot of your spells directly benefit you in melee (Spirit Guardians, Bless, Spiritual Weapon). I personally prefer Tempest Clerics for their blasting, but it's up to you.

[nickl_2000]

How about a level 20 Moon Druid. You get to be an elementals who also has full casting. If your wild shape form starts running out of HP, just wildshape into something else. Boom almost infinite HP

[Pichu]

How about a level 20 Moon Druid. You get to be an elementals who also has full casting. If your wild shape form starts running out of HP, just wildshape into something else. Boom almost infinite HP

Since you can stay Wild Shaped for 20 hrs at a time, just become a creature before you rest. Best two Wild Shapes? Woolly Mammoth (~120 HP) & Earth Elemental (burrowing speed). When it come time to rest, just bceome an eart elemental an dig your party a small, underground bunker!

[dejarnjc]

How about a level 20 Moon Druid. You get to be an elementals who also has full casting. If your wild shape form starts running out of HP, just wildshape into something else. Boom almost infinite HP

Possibly one of the best for melee combat. At 5th level, conjure some bears, wildshape into a bear, now you and your summons are a solid front line all by themselves.


At level 10+, conjure an elemental, wildshape into an earth elemental, smash face.

[solidork]

I really like my War Cleric. Spirit Guardians is amazing (and imo one of the best way to establish a unique identity for your character by picking what the spirits appear as) but it is sort of disappointing that so much of your combat effectiveness comes from a few spells.

[jaappleton]

I really like my War Cleric. Spirit Guardians is amazing (and imo one of the best way to establish a unique identity for your character by picking what the spirits appear as) but it is sort of disappointing that so much of your combat effectiveness comes from a few spells.

But those spells are, in the grand scheme of things, fairly low level.

Your higher level spells, like most spellcasters, tend to be fairly encounter-altering. Banishment? Don't mind if I do.

[rbstr]

Clerics are probably the easiest caster to play in melee range. Then I'd say the Valor bard followed by warlock. Moon druids are good but a bit more conditional than those. I'm kinda eh...on the Bladesinger.


Bladelocks don't care about AC. They have Mirror Image and Armour of Agathys. Not to say that they don't need to worry about it, and can take advantage of it, but Hexblades with Medium Armour go wonders.

Not only that, but why would a single-class bladelock go with poor Dexterity? It's your attacking stat! Are you not going to end up with +4-5? Light armor is just fine on a bladelock. You kinda want to get hit a bit!
On top of that you can get essentially free +1 light armor with an invocation.

[Sir cryosin]

A fighter 2 adjuration wizard 18 is incredibly tanky even for it's low HP. I have played one in a few one shots with a party of 2 bearbarians a life cleric, necromancery wiz, and warlock. DM couldn't hit my AC if he did I had shield spell, and my ward and magic res. I had shield and scorching ray as my lv18 at will spells. Main cantrip was GFB, favorite spells stop time, foresight, animated objects.

[EvilAnagram]

It's worth remembering that AL rarely makes it past level 12. A level 20 moon druid isn't going to ever happen.

[8wGremlin]

Arcane Domain Cleric, vhuman, magic initiate (druid)
Max Wis, and make sure Dex=14, Con as high as you can get it.

Chill touch (120' range, shuts down healing), and Booming Blade for your new Arcane Cleric cantrips
Take: Shillelagh, Thorn whip and Absorb Elements for your magic initiate (druid)

All attacks key of Wisdom now
Your AC is scale+shield+dex = 18ac

@4th level you take Warcaster - you can cast 'thorn whip' to draw them back to you, or booming blade.
@5th level you get spirit guardians
@8th level you get to add you wisdom to your cleric cantrips

[krunchyfrogg]

Arcane Domain Cleric, vhuman, magic initiate (druid)
Max Wis, and make sure Dex=14, Con as high as you can get it.

Chill touch (120' range, shuts down healing), and Booming Blade for your new Arcane Cleric cantrips
Take: Shillelagh, Thorn whip and Absorb Elements for your magic initiate (druid)

All attacks key of Wisdom now
Your AC is scale+shield+dex = 18ac

@4th level you take Warcaster - you can cast 'thorn whip' to draw them back to you, or booming blade.
@5th level you get spirit guardians
@8th level you get to add you wisdom to your cleric cantrips

I do love this build. So much. <3

I was thinking of booming blade and green flame blade as the arcane cantrips. If I'm reading it correctly, GFB adds wisdom bonus to damage at level 8.

I was thinking of getting war caster at level 4, and bumping wisdom at 8 and 12.

I seriously love this for AL when you don't know who'll be at the table. What group could possibly not be happy to have a cleric in it? A cleric who conjures his own magical weapon.

[Sirdar]

I consider 'full caster' to mean single class in the OP for my comments below.

The Clerics (War and Tempest in this case) are very good right out of the box if you want a full caster melee fighter. The Bladesinger is a bit trickier to run and the Valor Bard and Bladelock require some system mastery to pull of as good melee fighters without multiclassing. Best?
I will say Fiend Bladelock. There is just so much good combinations of spells/invocations and class features you can use depending on the situation.

[Brawnspear]

Arcane Domain Cleric, vhuman, magic initiate (druid)
Max Wis, and make sure Dex=14, Con as high as you can get it.

Chill touch (120' range, shuts down healing), and Booming Blade for your new Arcane Cleric cantrips
Take: Shillelagh, Thorn whip and Absorb Elements for your magic initiate (druid)

All attacks key of Wisdom now
Your AC is scale+shield+dex = 18ac

@4th level you take Warcaster - you can cast 'thorn whip' to draw them back to you, or booming blade.
@5th level you get spirit guardians
@8th level you get to add you wisdom to your cleric cantrips

I do like this idea.
My favorite melee caster is similar, mainly due to the shillelagh booming blade combo.
Go full Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric. Con and Wis boost, Heavy armor, and an extra HP per level. If you want weapons, you've got them. Or instead, take Shillelagh as your druid cantrip and buff that con and wis.

Pick up magic initiate at level 4 and choose whichever arcane class has your most favorable off stat, grab booming blade to bring the thunder. Add other cantrips and choose a fun level 1 spell. I personally like grabbing Find Familiar for long range touch heals and to fit the nature flair of having an animal companion.

At level 6 you have the ability to grant resistance to elemental damage as a reaction at will. While not as long lasting as absorb elements the constant effect is very nice.

Level 8 you can buff your wis or pick up warcaster, but one of the shiny things you get is the extra d8 to your one melee attack. The one melee attack you get with booming blade. So now you have a magic shock stick, with lightning, thunder, and bludgeoning damage for 3d8+wis along with the booming blade rider.

And that is without any spells to speak of. Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, healing, Plant/Spike growth, Shield of Faith. All solid spells to slow enemies down or keep you alive.

[Squiddish]

I'm going to make the case for abjuration wizard, using melee or short range cantrips (shocking grasp, vampiric touch, poison spray, lightning lure, booming blade, etc). While the right sort of cleric (such as war domain) might have them beat, abjuration wizard has a number of advantages.
1. Very tanky-a good bit more health than a cleric or warlock thanks to arcane ward, which is also pretty easy to recharge (or free if you pick up alarm and cast it ritually between battles). Also have a serious advantage when it comes to concentration.
2. The shield spell-self explanatory
3. Fairly Single Ability Dependent when it comes to damage, or completely if you don't use GFB or BB.

[Vaz]

Hexblade is not AL legal.

Then don't play AL, in the same way as you wouldn't play with any DM who arbitrarily bans things.

The Bladesinger isn't a melee fighter. It's a Full Spellcaster which has Bladesong to keep its AC and Concentration spells up while otherwise acting as a Wizard. There is literally no need for it to ever get close. Sure, it CAN get close, but that's like saying an Assault Rifle is a melee weapon because you can hit people with the stock or attach a bayonet.

[8wGremlin]

I do love this build. So much. <3

I was thinking of booming blade and green flame blade as the arcane cantrips. If I'm reading it correctly, GFB adds wisdom bonus to damage at level 8.

I was thinking of getting war caster at level 4, and bumping wisdom at 8 and 12.

I seriously love this for AL when you don't know who'll be at the table. What group could possibly not be happy to have a cleric in it? A cleric who conjures his own magical weapon.

I'd suggest one or the other - my preference is Booming Blade as this imparts a stickiness combined with Thorn whip is hard to get away from the character.

I take chill touch due to its long range, something that is lacking for a cleric, and the fact that the damage is necro, something that isn't heavily resisted, has 2 decentish riders (no healing, and if undead, disadvantage on next attack)

Usual attack sequence, bonus: shillelagh, move, action: Booming blade
it's not too shabby and is still effective and 5th level+ when other things come online and the damage increases.

Also it's all from your single AL +1 book

[DragonSorcererX]

War Clerics of course! These guys can take on army... alone... at level 20 of course! Specially if we are talking about a low CR army like most armies from Eberron...

Also Moon Druids because they are immortal (but someone probably said that already).

[Klorox]

I'd suggest one or the other - my preference is Booming Blade as this imparts a stickiness combined with Thorn whip is hard to get away from the character.

I take chill touch due to its long range, something that is lacking for a cleric, and the fact that the damage is necro, something that isn't heavily resisted, has 2 decentish riders (no healing, and if undead, disadvantage on next attack)

Usual attack sequence, bonus: shillelagh, move, action: Booming blade
it's not too shabby and is still effective and 5th level+ when other things come online and the damage increases.

Also it's all from your single AL +1 book

I agree. You need a better ranged attack than sacred flame.

If you really want GFB, take magic initiate: wizard later.

[Pichu]

I agree. You need a better ranged attack than sacred flame.

If you really want GFB, take magic initiate: wizard later.

Or you can go Variant Half-Elf :-]

[Klorox]

Or you can go Variant Half-Elf :-]

The problem with that is not getting magic initiate: Druid at level 1, which is a cornerstone of the build.

[8wGremlin]

The problem with that is not getting magic initiate: Druid at level 1, which is a cornerstone of the build.

Isn't the half-elf version of this build based on taking Nature Domain, and getting Shillelagh through that, and then getting 'Booming blade' from high elf 1 wizard cantrip.

The only issue I can see with this build is that Booming blade is then tied to your INT and not WIS and you don't get to add your WIS to it at 8th level, but you do get heavy armour otherwise it seems a viable Nature Domain build.

[Vaz]

The problem with that is not getting magic initiate: Druid at level 1, which is a cornerstone of the build.

Yup; neither can you take take Magic Initiate more than once, neither is there a Wisdom based "Arcane" Caster.

[Klorox]

Yup; neither can you take take Magic Initiate more than once, neither is there a Wisdom based Caster.

Really? I thought it was kind of like the resilient feat, how you could take more than one.

My bad!

[Corran]

Really? I thought it was kind of like the resilient feat, how you could take more than one.

My bad!
Oh my... I hope you will be less disappointed than I was when I first found out.
You can take the resilient feat only once!

ps: The ''ignorance'' part was meant to be humor, not an insult or anything of that sort.

[Beelzebubba]

Really? I thought it was kind of like the resilient feat, how you could take more than one.

My bad!

Look at the intro text before feats. It says you can take only one unless the feat says otherwise.

Unfortunately, the only feat that says what happens when you take it multiple times is Elemental Adept.

[Citan]

I understand a dedicated warrior will do better.

What AL legal full spellcaster makes the best melee warrior?

War Cleric?
Valor Bard?
Bladesinger?
With feats available, Bladesinger.
With UA available, College of Swords Bard with Hexblade Blade Warlock coming close.
Otherwise: any Cleric with improved weapon damage and heavy armor with Valor Bard / Blade Warlock (with a feat) / Draconic Sorcerer coming close.

Bladesinger
+ Wizard!!! (gets most great defense spells, ends with free Shield & Mirror Image if chooses so + short-rest Haste if chooses so)
+ Potential Simulacrum
+ DEX-based armor (Mage Armor)
+ INT-based bonus to AC and concentration
- Very respectable end damage with or without Haste, but no chance of getting GWM feat, and no hand crossbow proficiency.
Bladesinger is arguably the best overall in terms of balance, with a vast array of leveling options and tactics when feats are available (without feats, it's basically max DEX and INT, put last in CON).

1. DEX heavy, keep starting INT at 16, use ASI to max DEX, get a Resilient: CON, Warcaster (or both) or Mobile feat. You will mainly use buff / utility spells to empower your melee efficiency.
You should still get 20 AC easily when Bladesinging.

2. DEX-light: keep starting 16 DEX, max INT, use melee weapon only when you have advantage or other buff, and otherwise use melee cantrips and spells. Especially good with Warcaster but I guess it does not fit your "melee warrior" (which hints at melee weapon attacks).

Swords Bard
+ Bard! Bardic Inspiration, Magic Secrets, great healing/buff/debuff spell list (including some great non-concentration ones and some "inescapable" ones)
+ Swords: armor proficiencies (medium armor), special Action providing Extra Attack, speed bonus and "self-use" Bardic Inspirations for extra damage or AC.
+ "perma d6 Bardic Inspiration" for use on this special Action.
+ FRIGGING "use a weapon as a Bardic focus" (am I the only one finding this borderline op? o/)
+ Potential Simulacrum
- Much lesser damage than other contenders unless you use spell slots on buffing yourself.
- More generally you have to rely on spells to make yourself really resilient.
The good thing is, with feats only there are many good things to do.

STR-based? Easy with multiclass (1 level Fighter or some Cleric providing martial weapons, and either TWF or Shield), max STR, get GWM, use your spells "as you go".
Without multiclass, getting GWM is cumbersome because you actually need to grab Weapon Master before...
Another option that's easy with multiclass is sticking Sword and Board and grabbing Shield Master, perfect with your Expertise in Athletics.

DEX-based? Even easier, still grab the Fighter 1 for TWF or Shield Master and/or Hexblade Warlock 1 for Hex and CHA-based weapon attacks (if UA allowed).
Or pure class, just pick Mobile for even more mobility, then either max DEX and go with it, using melee weapon or hand crossbow with Crossbow Expert feat, or pick Shillelagh as Magic Secrets and pair it with Polearm Master and Sentinel (so you keep your starting DEX to make space for all of these).

Hexblade Pact Blade Warlock
UA based so...
+ CHA-based attack right from the start (Hexblade)
+ starting Light armor proficiency (so either max DEX and use Mage Armor, or grab Moderately Armored).
+ Hex, Armor of Agathys, etc available on short rest
+ Hexblade Patron features which are rad powerful and cool.
+ defense spells (although Shield on a 5th slot is pretty frustrating) and buff spells (Elemental Weapon)
+ Ends with pretty respectable damage with TWF or GWM (2-3 weapon attacks with bonus CHA on it, before even feats), pretty stupid even (bonus damage proficiency + CHA + potential Hex/Elemental Weapon).
- Usually less versatile than other full spellcasters because of how it was conceived.
- Not so much to do beyond hitting.

Other Warlocks have a heavy opportunity cost defense-wise: if no feats nor multiclass, you will want to stick to hit&run tactics, using Eldricht Blast when melee feels too dangerous. With feats, you'll want Mobile and/or Moderately Armored. With multiclass, the good old Fighter/Cleric dip will usually do the trick.
Whatever happens, you will usually spend one of the short-rest slots on a buff. Although Fey (Greater Invisibility) and Fiend (THP on kill, stack Fire Shield + Armor of Agathys) have some good options, the easiest is clearly Hexblade (too powerful imo but that's another story).

Tempest Cleric / War Cleric

+ Cleric! Bless, Shield of Faith, Healing Words, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians etc.
+ heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency.
+ useful Channel Divinities for dealing damage.
Then comes the feats/multiclass questions.
With feats, Magic Initiate provides the Booming Blade and Lightning Lure cantrips (although the latter would require decent CHA/INT).
WIS also means easy multiclass into Monk or Ranger.
As a pure class, the Cleric does only average damage from weapon attacks, but can deal pretty decent damage per turn when stacking Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians on it.

Basically:
Wizard is the top because the most balanced overall, but comes with strings attached (relies on DEX and INT, basically forces you to TWF)
Bard and Warlock share the second place, with the former providing excellent mobility/defense, the latter huge damage per hit.
And all of these three are "good enough" in dealing melee weapon attack damage without feats/multiclassing (although those obviously help a lot).

Whereas other options usually rely a lot on enhancing damage per turn directly (self-buff, weapon buff) or indirectly (non-weapon damage source such as Spiritual Weapon, Fire Shield etc).

[jaappleton]

Swords Bard

+ FRIGGING "use a weapon as a Bardic focus" (am I the only one finding this borderline op? o/)


Emphasis mine.

I can't believe I overlooked that before with the Swords Bard.

Does that mean that... A +2 sword actually adds +2 to your spell save DC and attack rolls as well?

[Millstone85]

I can't believe I overlooked that before with the Swords Bard.I seem unable to find that bit about College of Swords granting the use of a weapon as a bardic focus.


Does that mean that... A +2 sword actually adds +2 to your spell save DC and attack rolls as well?Doubtful.
* A weapon +N adds its bonus to "attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon". Nothing here about saving throws.
* Rod of the Pact Keeper adds its bonus to spell attack rolls and saving throw DCs, but Wand of the War Mage only adds its bonus to spell attack rolls. There is no general rule for a focus +N.
* I would say using a weapon as a focus for a spell with a spell attack roll doesn't count as making an attack with the weapon.

[Pichu]

Emphasis mine.

I can't believe I overlooked that before with the Swords Bard.

Does that mean that... A +2 sword actually adds +2 to your spell save DC and attack rolls as well?

Wait...now just make an ax/guitar and you have your instrument, focus, and weapon all in one!!!

[Citan]

Then don't play AL, in the same way as you wouldn't play with any DM who arbitrarily bans things.

The Bladesinger isn't a melee fighter. It's a Full Spellcaster which has Bladesong to keep its AC and Concentration spells up while otherwise acting as a Wizard. There is literally no need for it to ever get close. Sure, it CAN get close, but that's like saying an Assault Rifle is a melee weapon because you can hit people with the stock or attach a bayonet.
The fact that you didn't even bother trying to play (or theorycraft) a Bladesinger Wizard does not mean he isn't a melee fighter.
As a matter of fact, a properly built Bladesinger Wizard will end up as much more resilient than even a Fighter as far as AC is concerned: between...
- the hefty AC bump (should usually start at 16/17 AC, ends at 19/20)
- and Shield use (which is a starting spell, and becomes free at level 18, a perk that Fighter cannot ever hope to reach)
- and possible free Mirror Image (which becomes free at level 18, another perk that Fighter cannot ever hope to reach)
- and lvl 20 potential 1/short rest Haste/Blink/Protection from Energy (yet again) once
DEX saves, mobility and AC are easily covered, much better than a Fighter without feats (with feats, Shield Master is forbidden to Bladesinger so...)

Damage-wise, between the low-level spells that a Wizard can use against enemies (Blindness, Slow, Hold Person, Levitate) or on himself (Enlarge / Magic Weapon / Haste / Greater Invisibility) to get better chance to hit or/and potentially better damage, along with the Extra Attack from lvl 6 and +INT feature from lvl 14, a Bladesinger can deal very respectable damage when using plain weapon attacks. With the concentration bonus and possibly Resilient: CON or Warcaster feat, a Bladesinger can afford to stick a bit close to enemies while sustaining Haste. Or Mobile feat even better so you can hit & run as you want with little risk.
And with Haste active you can spend every round moving at least (30+10)*2=80 feet (30 base most races + 10 bonus Bladesong, *2 from Haste) or up to 200 (30 base + 10 Mobile feat + 10 bonus Bladesong, total doubled so 100 feet, plus free Dash action from Haste)
and make 3 (Extra Attack + TWF) or 4 (with extra Attack from Haste) weapon attacks for a total of
3*(1d8+5+5) + 1d8+5 (bonus action TWF without related style) for an average of 3*14,5 + 9,5 = 53 damage per round (considering you generally use reaction on Shield).

You don't like Haste? Then you drop to an average of 39,5 which is still respectable while you maintain any of those great Wizard spells (Bigby's Hand, Animate Objects, Walls of X, Conjure X, etc).

Of course, on the sole, specific point of view of sustained pure weapon attacks, probably nothing damage-wise will ever beat a properly built Fighter (because you have enough feats to max attack stat, take GWM+Polearm Master for a STR-based melee build or Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert for a versatile DEX-based build, and still take something like Mobile / Ritual Caster / Mage Slayer to further expand your set of abilities).

But comparing Fighter (even Eldricht Knight) and Bladesinger side-by-side on one-handed weapons, Bladesinger wins easily in the end because while the Fighter will get an edge on damage (thanks to 4th Attack), Wizard will get an edge on everything else (mobility/defense/versatility), without even including near-cheese tricks such as Simulacrum.

Of course putting aside multiclassing, because there are so many ways to enhance both Fighter and Bladesinger that I don't even want to open this kind of box. XD


I seem unable to find that bit about College of Swords granting the use of a weapon as a bardic focus.

It's in the "revised subclasses" UA (a newer version of the Bard archetype) so if you were looking in the old one from last year it's normal you didn't find it. ;)

[Snails]

I am playing a low level Tempest Cleric, and it is so good in the thick of it, it just seems unfair.

Martial weapons and heavy armor. But punishing someone who hits you with a reaction is very powerful in low level play. Plus channel divinity can pump this up, in a pinch. When pumped with channel divinity, your Thunderwave or Shatter competes with Fireball, only you get a nibble at this kind of power earlier.

There are probably better routes over the long haul, but this is so simple to play and works well out of the box, without any careful planning/building at all. This is a good choice for a lot of players, for the sake of ease of play.

[solidork]

Emphasis mine.

I can't believe I overlooked that before with the Swords Bard.



It's honestly not that impressive, depending on what spells you know. For example, you still need an empty hand to cast Counterspell even if you can use your weapon as a focus. I ran into this problem with Shield on my Arcane Trickster (who had a dagger he could use as a spell focus).

Edit: For clarification, if you are dual wielding and can use one of your weapons as a focus, you can't cast spells with only Somatic or only Verbal and Somatic components.

[PeteNutButter]

Bladesinger
...
- Very respectable end damage with or without Haste, but no chance of getting GWM feat, and no hand crossbow proficiency.
...


Drow can totally get hand crossbows and be bladesingers without multiclassing or requiring a feat. Boost DEX, grab SS and CBE. Solid archer with a good AC and great movement speed to kite. Oh and it's a full caster/wizard.

Only downside is the int mod to melee is wasted if you get that far. It makes a fantastic archer gish though.

[Giant2005]

Draconic Sorcerer with Quickened GFBs. At level 5 you basically have the Paladin's level 11 ability and the Bladelock's level 12 ability; as well as some extra rider abilities.

[Maxilian]

Of all, I prefer the Bladelock or Valor Bard because FavSoul/BladeSinger/etc are to squishy. Overall, I prefer Bladelock because
a) Warlocks
b) You are always armed
c) You get Extra Attack at 5th level
d) You can shore up ranged vulnerability with the most powerful cantrip in the game. Enemy too close? Blast him with an EB volley and run to the cleric for heals!

But Bladelocks are quite squishy, sometimes even more squishy than Valor Bard and Bladesinger (Bladesinger will have a much greater AC than you and the Valor Bard will have better armor, almost the same AC, the ability to reduce the hit of the enemy -Making it harder to get hit- and the ability to heal.)

IMHO the best full caster class to be in melee is a Cleric, any Cleric works, some are better for damage, other for controls, but in the end, most Clerics can use Heavy Armor, do a well amount of damage in melee, heal themselves and the party and rain pain and suffering into your enemies head.

[MeeposFire]

As an alternative to the tempest and war clerics (very good choices by the by) the life cleric is also very effective. You get most of the more important parts of the cleric but you trade some damage for being even harder to put down and even better at keeping allies up. Not quite as thematic as nature or tempest in picking up booming blade but you still can take it either using an elf/half elf or by taking the magic initiate feat.

[Positiveimpact3]

It entirely depends on what you mean by best as that is highly conditional among many unknowns and also very objective. I assume you mean full casters so no paladin, ranger, ek, wo4e, at, etc. (If best is being good at skills i suggest rogue trickster 12 for reliable talent.) I assume that ua is not allowed but that multiclassing and feats are.

For levels 2-6 i dont think anything will beat a moon druid - it has tankiness, damage, healing, buff, debuff, and some utility - bear conjuring plus bear wildshapse x2 per short rest = win at these levels. Heat metal, flaming sphere, hold person, and call lightning - yikes.

At level 20 a moon druid is nearly impossible to beat for melee casters with 9th level shapechange or foresight spells and infinite wildshape. The few exceptions might be wizards and sorcerers with the wish spell because they can literally wish to be godly melee fighters, a cleric because it essentially has the wish spell - divine variant through divine intervention (and everyone loves a cleric anyways, they are good contenders in their own right with ample healing/support and significant ac) but also anything with the 9th level spell true polymorph is a hell of a contender for a melee caster because you know.. dragons, pit fiends, and beholders are kinda good at combat. Also wish-simulacrum abuse or a necromancer can be effective as a melee fighter (by proxy) simply due to having an army. Gate can also certainly cause some melee chaos.

If you are looking for lots of versatility, toughness, and burst damage try finding the guide on here for sorcerer / paladin multiclassing.

If you want really heavy and consistent at will damage with interesting options - consider warlock with xbow mastery and warcaster. Up to 4 attacks per round 1d10(+cha) force damage each with anywhere from melee to 120 ft. Range. Grab shield proficiency for +2 ac. (Maybe 2 levels of fighter for heavy armor and shield prof looking at 20ac. Plus action surge for eldritch blast burst damage. Other options include devil sight + darkness. Having 20ac and enemies with disadvantage to hit you plus adv on your heavy at will damage - yikes. Another option is hold person + eb - attacks made w/adv if you are within 5ft and your blasts auto critting on a hit. Another option: repelling blast = free disengage on a succesfull hit. Another option: warcaster allows an eb cast (up to 4 attacks) as the warlock's aoo - ouch. You can take the chain pact to provide combat support like spreading caltrops, ball bearings, granting advantage to attacks or ability checks, administering potions, interacting with objects, spying and scouting or take the tome for ritual casting for out of combat support. Another option - main sorcerer and just dip 2-3 levels into warlock so you can quicken blasts for 1 sorcery point. Warlock and sorcerer both have great 9th level spells for melee casters - wish, true polymorph, foresight etc.

There are many ways to make an effective melee caster and "best" it purely situational depending on your level as classes are vary on power at any given level and based largely on opinion. The ones i think are simply the most interesting and fun are arcane tricksters, warlocks/sorlocks, moon druids, and sorcadins. Followed maybe by paladin/warlocks - devil sight + darkness + gwm + good ac/hp + smites galore + versatility is a lot of fun.

Edit: it is my opinion that some of these builds are in many cases as strong as or stronger than a straight fighter and i would challenge the notion that melee casters are weaker on average.

[Gtdead]

Depends on what you need him for.

I had the idea of a guardian type character to complement my character's background, that guarded a holy chapel. Hallowed ground (energy vulnerability radiant) and SG.

DM told me to shut the **** up.

Bonus points for arcana cleric. You can wish for hallow on the spot. Or simulacrum...

[Klorox]

The fact that you didn't even bother trying to play (or theorycraft) a Bladesinger Wizard does not mean he isn't a melee fighter.
As a matter of fact, a properly built Bladesinger Wizard will end up as much more resilient than even a Fighter as far as AC is concerned: between...
- the hefty AC bump (should usually start at 16/17 AC, ends at 19/20)
- and Shield use (which is a starting spell, and becomes free at level 18, a perk that Fighter cannot ever hope to reach)
- and possible free Mirror Image (which becomes free at level 18, another perk that Fighter cannot ever hope to reach)
- and lvl 20 potential 1/short rest Haste/Blink/Protection from Energy (yet again) once
DEX saves, mobility and AC are easily covered, much better than a Fighter without feats (with feats, Shield Master is forbidden to Bladesinger so...)

Damage-wise, between the low-level spells that a Wizard can use against enemies (Blindness, Slow, Hold Person, Levitate) or on himself (Enlarge / Magic Weapon / Haste / Greater Invisibility) to get better chance to hit or/and potentially better damage, along with the Extra Attack from lvl 6 and +INT feature from lvl 14, a Bladesinger can deal very respectable damage when using plain weapon attacks. With the concentration bonus and possibly Resilient: CON or Warcaster feat, a Bladesinger can afford to stick a bit close to enemies while sustaining Haste. Or Mobile feat even better so you can hit & run as you want with little risk.
And with Haste active you can spend every round moving at least (30+10)*2=80 feet (30 base most races + 10 bonus Bladesong, *2 from Haste) or up to 200 (30 base + 10 Mobile feat + 10 bonus Bladesong, total doubled so 100 feet, plus free Dash action from Haste)
and make 3 (Extra Attack + TWF) or 4 (with extra Attack from Haste) weapon attacks for a total of
3*(1d8+5+5) + 1d8+5 (bonus action TWF without related style) for an average of 3*14,5 + 9,5 = 53 damage per round (considering you generally use reaction on Shield).

You don't like Haste? Then you drop to an average of 39,5 which is still respectable while you maintain any of those great Wizard spells (Bigby's Hand, Animate Objects, Walls of X, Conjure X, etc).

Of course, on the sole, specific point of view of sustained pure weapon attacks, probably nothing damage-wise will ever beat a properly built Fighter (because you have enough feats to max attack stat, take GWM+Polearm Master for a STR-based melee build or Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert for a versatile DEX-based build, and still take something like Mobile / Ritual Caster / Mage Slayer to further expand your set of abilities).

But comparing Fighter (even Eldricht Knight) and Bladesinger side-by-side on one-handed weapons, Bladesinger wins easily in the end because while the Fighter will get an edge on damage (thanks to 4th Attack), Wizard will get an edge on everything else (mobility/defense/versatility), without even including near-cheese tricks such as Simulacrum.

Of course putting aside multiclassing, because there are so many ways to enhance both Fighter and Bladesinger that I don't even want to open this kind of box. XD


It's in the "revised subclasses" UA (a newer version of the Bard archetype) so if you were looking in the old one from last year it's normal you didn't find it. ;)
I just feel it's important to note that an eldritch knight can cast all those defensive spells.

God I love that class.

[Citan]

I just feel it's important to note that an eldritch knight can cast all those defensive spells.

God I love that class.
It's very true, but I didn't feel needed to stress that it can do so much less often than any Wizard, it gets them much much later and still cannot access the greatest ones. ;)

So while Eldricht Knight is arguably the best archetype thanks to that, it's still far away from Bladesinger, and it's normal after all since it gets other great features instead.

People should be able to do the maths by themselves sometimes after all.