So, you are the DM and I say...

[ZorroGames]

"DM, I want to make a Mountain Dwarf William Tell type character..."

"I want to take the leather Armor but substitute HCBow for Longbow and bolts instead of arrows."

Would you find that reasonable?

Would you insist I take the Longbow (which, unlike early OD&D is apparently acceptable for dwarf characters now)?

Would you substitute LCBow instead?

Thanks so in advance.

[Cybren]

???why couldn't you just get profiency from your class??? I'm confused. Was William Tell a sorcerer or something? What's going on

[ZorroGames]

???why couldn't you just get profiency from your class??? I'm confused. Was William Tell a sorcerer or something? What's going on

The question was how open would someone as a DM be to changing starting equipment for a fighter class character.

It is not about proficiency. It is about do I have to end up selling the LongBow (50% of buying price) and acquiring more GP (25 more) to buy a HCBow or is it reasonable to just start with a HCBow instead of a Longbow?

Or I could start with a Longbow and one of my two Martial Weapons as a HCBow - just seems redundant.

I assumed you knew the story of William Tell. You do, right?

[Biggstick]

Choose Dwarf race (I'd suggest Hill Dwarf, as Mountain Dwarf +2 Str will be wasted with this build).

Choose relevant background for William Tell (Not sure exactly what you're looking for in being a "William Tell").

Choose Fighter class. Choose Archery Fighting Style.

Put a 15 in Dexterity. Use your ASI's to grab Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and ASI's into Dexterity whenever you can. Put Wisdom at an odd number so you can also grab Resilient: Wisdom at some point.

Use any sort of ranged option (Short/Long bow or Hand/Light/Heavy Crossbow) that you want. They all take advantage of the Archery fighting style and all get "some" benefit from the feats chosen.

[Biggstick]

The question was how open would someone as a DM be to changing starting equipment for a fighter class character.

It is not about proficiency. It is about do I have to end up selling the LongBow (50% of buying price) and acquiring more GP (25 more) to buy a HCBow or is it reasonable to just start with a HCBow instead of a Longbow?

Or I could start with a Longbow and one of my two Martial Weapons as a HCBow - just seems redundant.

I assumed you knew the story of William Tell. You do, right?

You're not actually changing the starting equipment for the Fighter. Some of their options present you the choice to take a martial weapon. It doesn't specify if this weapon is ranged or melee. This means that for every "choose a martial weapon choice" presented to you on the initial Fighter gear list choices, you can choose a Hand Crossbow.

[ZorroGames]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

Th Mountain Dwarf is part of the intended role play of the character. I always put role play ahead of roll play where possible.

William Tell a mountaineer, Dwarf should be a mountain dwarf.

[ZorroGames]

Let me make it easier.

Would you as a DM allow replacing initially the Longbow/arrows choice with a HCBow/bolts choice. Yes or No?

[ZorroGames]

You're not actually changing the starting equipment for the Fighter. Some of their options present you the choice to take a martial weapon. It doesn't specify if this weapon is ranged or melee. This means that for every "choose a martial weapon choice" presented to you on the initial Fighter gear list choices, you can choose a Hand Crossbow.

Or a Heavy Cross Bow. Got that part.

[Feuerphoenix]

Yes, I see no reason, why it should disrupt the balance. But I think Tell had a light xbow...

[nickl_2000]

I'm making an assumptions here
1) you are looking to use the Fighter Starter Pack
2) you are using the default and not the GP buy

3) You are using this Started Set

You start with the following equipment, in addition to
the equipment granted by your background:
• (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows
• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial
weapons
• (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) two handaxes
• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

I would definitely let you trade out the longbow for a Hand Crossbow. I would consider that you are trading you light crossbow and Longbow options for the hand crossbow (ends up equaling the same total GP). Besides that you are doing less damage and has a much smaller range. Overall, you are hurting you character for the sake of roleplaying it, so I don't see why not

[Biggstick]

Let me make it easier.

Would you as a DM allow replacing initially the Longbow/arrows choice with a HCBow/bolts choice. Yes or No?

A mountaineer doesn't have to actually be born of the mountains. They can just as easily come from any stock of people and be a mountaineer. Don't discount Hill Dwarves simply because they're not born of the mountain.

As for your question, this isn't something that can really be gone on about here. It's a question that needs to be asked of your DM. The book clearly allows for Fighters to choose a Hand Crossbow with one of their other martial weapon choices.

To change the initial choice of heavy armor or Longbow/leather armor would require you to talk to your actual DM, not a bunch of folks on the internet. Regardless of what we say, it doesn't matter as it's truthfully your DM's call. If pressed on it though, I wouldn't allow the change simply because a Hand Crossbow is 75g where as a Longbow is 50g.

[Trampaige]

Roll for starting wealth and buy whatever.

[Zman]

I'd allow it. They have the same cost, and are comparable weapons.

Of course it is the DM's call, but I would have no problem with it.

[Slipperychicken]

Just pick the hand crossbow and bolts for your martial weapons and I'll let you opt out of the longbow.

[nickl_2000]

Just pick the hand crossbow and bolts for your martial weapons and I'll let you opt out of the longbow.

Or just give it to the elf who isn't rich enough to get one.

[Bloodcloud]

Basic Rules p. 43... you can start with a number of gold and buy your equipment. Entirely RAW. media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/playerdndbasicrules_v0.2.pdf

[Beelzebubba]

God, way too many people are missing your entire question.


Let me make it easier.

Would you as a DM allow replacing initially the Longbow/arrows choice with a HCBow/bolts choice. Yes or No?

Definitely! It's close enough in power and lets you flavor your character in a fun way.

[solidork]

Do you want a Heavy Crossbow or a Hand Crossbow? Either way, I would say yes.

[KorvinStarmast]

"DM, I want to make a Mountain Dwarf William Tell type character..."

"I want to take the leather Armor but substitute HCBow for Longbow and bolts instead of arrows."

Would you find that reasonable?

Would you insist I take the Longbow (which, unlike early OD&D is apparently acceptable for dwarf characters now)?

Would you substitute LCBow instead?

Thanks so in advance. Why don't you specify that HCBow is Heavy Cross Bow, since some people think that it means Hand Cross Bow. (I guesses that you meant Heavy Cross bow, but hey, I can guess wrongly).

[Honest Tiefling]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell

Th Mountain Dwarf is part of the intended role play of the character. I always put role play ahead of roll play where possible.

William Tell a mountaineer, Dwarf should be a mountain dwarf.

Well, I am 98% sure that William Tell wasn't a creature of Nordic mythology as interpreted by an Englishman, so I don't see why you couldn't go Hill Dwarf and just RP him as having shown those snooty Mountain Dwarves a thing or two about mountaineering.

As for the actual issue...Depends. If starting at level 1, I would not do this and encourage starting with a light crossbow, but with the idea of presenting a heavy crossbow as a quest reward or as obtainable loot. If you are starting at first level, that seems like a fine personal quest or goal to have as well as a fine reward for a minor quest. If starting at higher level, I'd probably just increase party gold across the board and call it a day. If one person can do it, so can everyone else.

[ZorroGames]

God, way too many people are missing your entire question.



Definitely! It's close enough in power and lets you flavor your character in a fun way.

Thank, I thought I was not saying it clearly but maybe not.

[ZorroGames]

Well, I am 98% sure that William Tell wasn't a creature of Nordic mythology as interpreted by an Englishman, so I don't see why you couldn't go Hill Dwarf and just RP him as having shown those snooty Mountain Dwarves a thing or two about mountaineering.

As for the actual issue...Depends. If starting at level 1, I would not do this and encourage starting with a light crossbow, but with the idea of presenting a heavy crossbow as a quest reward or as obtainable loot. If you are starting at first level, that seems like a fine personal quest or goal to have as well as a fine reward for a minor quest. If starting at higher level, I'd probably just increase party gold across the board and call it a day. If one person can do it, so can everyone else.

I like the second part. The first part has merit too, fighters don't have much use for +1 WI unless I missed something. I could start with both Longbow and LCB I guess, just trade or sell the former.

[ZorroGames]

Why don't you specify that HCBow is Heavy Cross Bow, since some people think that it means Hand Cross Bow. (I guesses that you meant Heavy Cross bow, but hey, I can guess wrongly).
Ah! So that is why... got it.

Coming from a historian and historical war gamer background in OD&D I have since 1972 used HCBow or HCB for heavy Crossbow. Never had a hand Crossbow as character or allowed it as DM, definitely not for PC, just Drow NPCs.

[ZorroGames]

Do you want a Heavy Crossbow or a Hand Crossbow? Either way, I would say yes.

Heavy. Never used a Hand CB as a character, seemed "drowish."

[ZorroGames]

Yes, I see no reason, why it should disrupt the balance. But I think Tell had a light xbow...

I have never seen it spelled out but writers about mythic heroes might not be concerned about people like us, "Inquiring Players want to know" probably never crossed their minds.

In pictures I have seen it both ways (well it appears as LCB or Hv. CB depending on the artist.)

LCB works for starting, I just was picking DMs minds.

[ZorroGames]

A mountaineer doesn't have to actually be born of the mountains. They can just as easily come from any stock of people and be a mountaineer. Don't discount Hill Dwarves simply because they're not born of the mountain.

As for your question, this isn't something that can really be gone on about here. It's a question that needs to be asked of your DM. The book clearly allows for Fighters to choose a Hand Crossbow with one of their other martial weapon choices.

To change the initial choice of heavy armor or Longbow/leather armor would require you to talk to your actual DM, not a bunch of folks on the internet. Regardless of what we say, it doesn't matter as it's truthfully your DM's call. If pressed on it though, I wouldn't allow the change simply because a Hand Crossbow is 75g where as a Longbow is 50g.

Well, about that DM thing... the group decided to bail on 5th and go with LOTR D&D instead. So I may be looking for another group, it has a completely different flavor in my mind. Not bad, just pistachio when you want butter pecan...

[krunchyfrogg]

Let me make it easier.

Would you as a DM allow replacing initially the Longbow/arrows choice with a HCBow/bolts choice. Yes or No?

No.

But Biggstick already answered this for you.

Fighters choose martial weapons as part of their starting equipment.

A Hand Crossbow is a martial weapon.

What's the problem?

[ZorroGames]

No.

But Biggstick already answered this for you.

Fighters choose martial weapons as part of their starting equipment.

A Hand Crossbow is a martial weapon.

What's the problem?

I simply do not want a hand cross bow. Is there a problem with that? Heavy Cross Bow is a Martial (ranged) weapon.

[Yagyujubei]

Let me make it easier.

Would you as a DM allow replacing initially the Longbow/arrows choice with a HCBow/bolts choice. Yes or No?

why does it matter what we would do when we're not the ones DMing you?

[ZorroGames]

why does it matter what we would do when we're not the ones DMing you?

If you don't want to answer then don't.

[Cybren]

It's worth pointing out if you're intending on using this as a cudgel against a DM that wouldn't rule in your favor, but otherwise isn't really contributive to the thread

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'd allow it, but I'm a pretty permissive DM.

However, heavy crossbow always fit more of a "light artillery" feel to me, which might not explicitly fit the flavor of William Tell (though fluff is mutable and all that).

[Khrysaes]

I simply do not want a hand cross bow. Is there a problem with that? Heavy Cross Bow is a Martial (ranged) weapon.

It seems you answered your own question here. If Heavy Xbow is a martial weapon, and fighters get to pick 1 martial weapon.

As a fighter, you start with

•(a) chain mail or (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows
• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial
weapons
• (a) a light c rossbow and 20 bolts or (b) two handaxes
• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

You get each of the bullet points, not one of. Unless the DM says otherwise. Also of note, it is (Chain mail OR Leather), and (Longbow and 20 arrows). So you don't need to pick leather armor to get the longbow. At least, that is how I read it with the comma being where it is.

The Martial Weapons do not specify that they have to be melee weapons, so theoretically you could start with 2 Heavy Xbows. Or, 1 and 1 Melee weapon. OR, you could start with 2 hand Xbows which are worth 75g, sell them, buy a Heavy Xbow, worth 50g, and end up with a profit. You already start with bolts.

As for a trade, as a Longbow and Heavy Xbow are worth the same amount, it wouldn't break the game or anything to swap them over, so I would allow it, but this is dependent on your DM. Make sure you specify that you want Heavy, not Hand, or you will end up with the confusion you caused here.

In a similar fashion, bolts are the same value as arrows, so trading them should pose no issue.

Also, same thing with the armor, you could pick the chain shirt, worth 50g, sell it, buy a leather armor, worth 10g, and end up with a profit. Same concept with the Light Crossbow and Two Handaxes, one is clearly worth more than the other.

If you want maximum starting gold, if you can convince your DM to allow you to trade longbow for Heavy Xbow, and Arrows for bolts.

For options, pick Chain mail, 2 Hand Crossbows, and Light Crossbow. Sell them, buy Leather Armor, 200g profit. Get a melee weapon for when you need it.

PS: Instead of leaving a chain of posts like you have, consider making one posts with multiple quotes in order to reply. Also, the tone of some of your reply's, much like the one I quoted are coming of quite rude, when it is your own fault for not initially specifying that you wanted a heavy crossbow not a hand cross bow causing misunderstandings. I know you clarified later, but when someone says, "Ask your DM," and your response is "If you don't want to answer, then don't," your making an arse of yourself, because after all, that is what it comes down to.

[Biggstick]

PS: Instead of leaving a chain of posts like you have, consider making one posts with multiple quotes in order to reply. Also, the tone of some of your reply's, much like the one I quoted are coming off quite rude, when it is your own fault for not initially specifying that you wanted a heavy crossbow not a hand cross bow causing misunderstandings. I know you clarified later, but when someone says, "Ask your DM," and your response is "If you don't want to answer, then don't," your making an arse of yourself, because after all, that is what it comes down to.

Preach!!

As another poster above said, clarifying if this post is to be used as ammo for a DM who isn't likely to allow the adjustment would be good to clarify in the first post of the thread, or at least updating it to include that information.

[Sigreid]

I wouldn't even hesitate in letting you.

[ZorroGames]

It's worth pointing out if you're intending on using this as a cudgel against a DM that wouldn't rule in your favor, but otherwise isn't really contributive to the thread

Nope.

No such intent.

[Hrugner]

Probably not. Since you can already get the items you want without changing the presets I'd probably tell you to do that and sell the stuff you don't want. If pressed I'd recommend just using the starting gold and buying things.

[Beelzebubba]

I think of it this way:

Is it an attempt to get a big mechanical benefit?
Is the character concept convoluted and contradictory?
Is it something other players will resent?

No? Go for it.

Yes? Explain that your game isn't about min/maxing that hard, and they won't suffer if they just chill out a bit.