let's consider Kickstarter done [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Castamir

2017-05-16, 03:51 PM

So, like other backers from 5 years ago, I just got the O'Chul PDF. 96 pages of pure awesomesity!

But, this made me thinking. At the current pace, it's four years worth of the comic. All just for the backers, who would get to enjoy the story just the same if posted publicly, all what we get is a warm fuzzy feeling of exclusivity. All this detracts from what mere mortals get. This means, they're less likely to stay. A comic with less viewers also gets fewer paying backers. That means, less ability and motivation for the Giant to continue. Thus, getting exclusive content is harmful for us in the long run.

So, what about putting an end to Kickstarter 2012 rewards (other than individual drawings, I guess)? The remaining stories would be of course nice to have, but they can as well be posted on the main site, for all to see. I am selfish and greedy, but I feel no need to maximize the number of exclusive pages of goodness I see, just the total I get to see.

The Giant is no businessman, thus it's no wonder the amount of work was underestimated (even for the epic $1.254M gross). A good part of Kickstarter projects fail, and most at least partially underdeliver. I'm greatly satisfied with what I already got, and at this point would rather prefer to keep the comic going (no big preference which storyline in particular, they're all great).

Rynael

2017-05-16, 04:13 PM

I think that the problem with that is that it's impossible to speak for everyone. The Kickstarter had a lot of backers, not all of whom go here, and for everyone you get who agrees, there will always be someone, somewhere, who didn't, and who would feel like a deal's been broken on them if that happened. The only way it would be uncontroversial is if the decision were unanimous, and that's not an easy thing to get. And I say this as someone who would've backed the Kickstarter if I'd been around at the time, but read the comic long after it ended. It's a nice sentiment, but it just doesn't seem practical.

Sylian

2017-05-16, 04:23 PM

Aedilred

2017-05-16, 04:31 PM

But, this made me thinking. At the current pace, it's four years worth of the comic.
I'm pretty sure it's been at least five years, in fact, but that's not in itself a problem. Once it became apparent that the new stuff wasn't going to be created according to the original schedule I pretty much stopped worrying about it, since the main content all arrived in reasonable time. When it does turn up now, that's a nice bonus.

Of the remaining stuff, the crayon drawings and the CPPD story are things backers specifically paid for, so those couldn't really be cancelled with a clear conscience. I'm not sure about the mystery prize but that might be in the same boat.

I get the impression that the wallpapers and monster minis are things that would probably get done anyway at some point.

Which leaves only the Sir Francois, Julio Scoundrél and Dim Sun strips. I honestly can't remember what the deal with those were but unless I'm missing something the campaign page is no longer showing stretch goals so I can't be sure whether they were generic or something that someone effectively paid to commission.

In any case I think there is a limit to what can be written off from the remaining things on the list without screwing over certain backers. To an extent that's a risk you run with Kickstarter but I can't imagine Rich would be happy to do so given his feelings about paid content (see any number of discussion threads about tip jars, patreons, supporting the comic financially and so on).

And as mentioned above, forming a consensus of kickstarter backers to agree to waive their remaining rewards would be all but impossible at this stage. There were nearly 15,000 backers so even if every post in this thread consisted of a new kickstarter backer agreeing to your proposal, the thread at the time it reached the page limit would still only speak for about 10% of the total backers: a long way short of quorate imo.

SaintRidley

2017-05-16, 04:44 PM

Which leaves only the Sir Francois, Julio Scoundrél and Dim Sun strips. I honestly can't remember what the deal with those were but unless I'm missing something the campaign page is no longer showing stretch goals so I can't be sure whether they were generic or something that someone effectively paid to commission.

Rich put those stories up as stretch rewards; the only thing specifically requested by a backer left to do is the CPPD story. That said, there's no telling how many backers were persuaded to back the project because of Sir Francois, Julio, or Dim Sun (I know I was already in but my interest was furthered with Dim Sun).

Rynael

2017-05-16, 04:48 PM

There are several things to consider. The O-Chul story will most likely be sold at some point, and that might provide The Giant with a good amount of revenue. Additionally, should The Giant not deliver the content he promised then that might hurt his credibility in the future. Imagine how upset someone who supported his Kickstarter primarily for the Dim Sun PDF might be, for instance. I, personally, do not care about the exclusivity either, but by keeping it semi-exclusive he could later sell it to other people. A PDF of the O-Chul story is worth at least $10, I'd argue. Giving it away for free would be nice, but I think it's reasonable to expect to get paid for his work.

I was just reading the suggestion as them being released at the same time, not for free, but yeah, I otherwise agree, especially since it's the closest thing to a donation opportunity besides merchandise. At minimum the price of On the Origin of PCs, by its longer length alone, and especially if it gets bundled with the other Azure City stories.

Wait, am I trying to haggle up the price of something I will eventually buy? Either way, this will get resolved in due time, and given how often these sorts of threads come up, I don't want it to contribute to a general sound of impatience regarding things that are actually, when you consider the length of all the different components involved, being delivered in pretty good time.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-16, 04:50 PM

Rich openly admitted that he over-promised during the excitement of the original campaign. Which is totally understandable given that he raised over a million dollars.

But these extra PDF stories were all stretch goals, weren't they? I imagine most people who pledged did it for the main rewards like the books or crayon drawings.

For me, I ordered the full set of books. They were delivered in full and I'm happy enough with that. I see the rest as extra bonus material that I'm in no rush for or demand. If Rich suddenly said, "Look, guys, this is too much and I want to focus on the comic," I'd be 100% okay with that. Judging from the latest Workometer, the only specifically main rewards left to be fulfilled are the crayon drawings. I don't know how many are left, but if Rich said "I'm finishing the crayon drawings and that's it," I'd like to think most folk would be okay with that, too.

Honestly, with the number of failed or disappointing Kickstarters, I think it's commendable that he's still plugging away at the Workometer. That kind of dedication is rare. I can't imagine the kind of pressure this whole crowd-funding campaign has put on him.

Castamir

2017-05-16, 04:55 PM

and for everyone you get who agrees, there will always be someone, somewhere, who didn't, and who would feel like a deal's been broken on them if that happened. The only way it would be uncontroversial is if the decision were unanimous, and that's not an easy thing to get.
Then, plan B: let's compare story lengths:

Therkla: 17
Belkar: 13
Haleo&Julean: 26
O'Chul: 96

10-page PDFs would fit the deal just fine, freeing the Giant's drawing time for things that benefit the future, be it the main comic or new public side stories.

On the other hand, while other side stories would be nice (I for one would want to see more of Sabine and/or Tsukiko), stealing the choice of old backers would be unfair (well, technically they'd still get their stories, but...).

Aedilred

2017-05-16, 05:25 PM

Then, plan B: let's compare story lengths:

Therkla: 17
Belkar: 13
Haleo&Julean: 26
O'Chul: 96

10-page PDFs would fit the deal just fine, freeing the Giant's drawing time for things that benefit the future, be it the main comic or new public side stories.

On the other hand, while other side stories would be nice (I for one would want to see more of Sabine and/or Tsukiko), stealing the choice of old backers would be unfair (well, technically they'd still get their stories, but...).

I imagine that the length of the pdfs is determined by Rich depending on the story he's decided he wants to tell and how long he thinks it'll take, rather than setting an arbitrary page limit and working towards it. Writing concisely is after all often more of a challenge. I would not be surprised if the Belkar and Therkla stories started with the intention of being ten pages long and later sprawled to 13/17. I also can't imagine he sat down with the intention of writing a 100-page story about O-Chul; rather I expect he worked out the story he wanted to tell and eventually found it was about 100 pages long. At that point, he could scrap that concept and come up with a new story that's only ten pages long, but I think everyone would rather he was working on things he wants to work on rather than churning things out for the sake of it.

Whether he has the inspiration to write the remaining bonus stories, who knows, but, CPPD aside, those were characters or themes he'd chosen himself, so presumably he had a concept in mind that he was prepared to write about and unless he's changed his mind in the meantime it might be easier to deal with those than it has been to come up with the "new" Therkla and O-Chul stories.

Further, while I don't think anyone would object to his delaying the Kickstarter reward comics to work on the webcomic (as he largely has been doing), I think some backers would feel more aggrieved - and not without justification - if he sacked off the remaining Kickstarter reward stories in order to work on new saleable pdfs which the backers had to pay for. If revenue is a problem then I don't think anyone would have too much of an objection to his making the reward stories available as buyable pdfs for everyone at the same time, or almost the same time, as they went to the backers. Already the backer pdfs are getting a public release more quickly than they did at first.

Kish

2017-05-16, 05:28 PM

Rich has mentioned that forum participants represent a distinct minority of his total readers. If everyone here agreed to forget there were ever promised Kickstarter rewards other than the ones we've already gotten, there would remain thousands of people who would scream "frauder" at him if he stopped working on the rewards that are left.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-16, 05:50 PM

I noticed one commenter in the Kickstarter comments who's been...quite demanding. Both of these quotes are from the same guy:

Please explain why it took so long to completed 95 pages and where you were gone between 24 April and 1st of May. Also, why is there no apology in this update for missing the deadline?

In 2013, Rich Burlew completed 3 Wallpapers, 2 stories, A set of monster minis and an average of 6 pages of comics a month. This was after the alleged thumb injury. Nothing of that magnitude of quantity has been produced since then. We all know why.

Please save everyone the trouble and publish the complete plot synopsis of Order of the Stick, including future elements. According to my calculations OOTS will not finish until August 2027 with the Drive finishing in 2022. This assumes similar productivity levels, levels we cannot rely on when Rich gets depressed because he's 50 and has been working on the same thing for 20 years. He already changed the art style (and his distinct brand) because other wise he couldn't work more. What else could he do?

All of this is downright rude to me. That's not even the worst that jackass said. He had the gall to say, "I speak for the silent majority when I say that Rich Burlew has obliterated all trust I had in him." He even compared Rich to Donald Trump. And all this over stretch goal content. As I said, aside from the crayon drawings, all the main Kickstarter campaign promises have been fulfilled. Everything else is bonus material in my eyes.

EDIT: Wow. And this same guy has been tweeting Rich with the same schtick. What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Ted The Bug

2017-05-16, 06:10 PM

Yes. It's a shame you can't report somebody on Kickstarter.

Gift Jeraff

2017-05-16, 06:28 PM

Is Rich a little kid that needs to be given a gold star for a partially finished job and be protected from mean Internet trolls? :smallconfused:

Grand Arbiter

2017-05-16, 07:42 PM

What the hell is wrong with this guy?

I am inclined to believe that asking what's not wrong will result in a much shorter list.

This particular individual seems like they need a reality check and a chill pill, at a minimum.

Aedilred

2017-05-16, 08:31 PM

I am inclined to believe that asking what's not wrong will result in a much shorter list.

This particular individual seems like they need a reality check and a chill pill, at a minimum.

In principle I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with criticising the rate of productivity of goods or services you have paid for. If you commission something and it takes five years to finish, I think it's fair to start asking questions about what's going on. Even the Sistine Chapel ceiling only took four years.

But that's in principle. Kickstarter doesn't really work like that; indeed one of the problems with it is that backers view themselves as customers rather than investors. The entitlement displayed in those comments and the associated rudeness, not to mention how ridiculous some of the suggestions are and the way it bundles up complaints about delivery of backer content with production of the webcomic, which is administratively nothing to do with the Kickstarter, also completely undermines any validity the point might once have had. And given that there have been a lot of people outright scammed through Kickstarter, and that it's well-known that one-man-band businesses have a tendency to struggle to deliver on successful campaigns and even go under as a result, it seems bizarre to target someone who is clearly making a good faith effort to deliver everything promised long after many would have given up. Especially to do so on the occasion of their delivering something. They're in need of a reality check, rather.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-16, 08:51 PM

In principle I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with criticising the rate of productivity of goods or services you have paid for. If you commission something and it takes five years to finish, I think it's fair to start asking questions about what's going on. Even the Sistine Chapel ceiling only took four years.

But that's in principle. Kickstarter doesn't really work like that; indeed one of the problems with it is that backers view themselves as customers rather than investors. The entitlement displayed in those comments and the associated rudeness, not to mention how ridiculous some of the suggestions are and the way it bundles up complaints about delivery of backer content with production of the webcomic, which is administratively nothing to do with the Kickstarter, also completely undermines any validity the point might once have had. And given that there have been a lot of people outright scammed through Kickstarter, and that it's well-known that one-man-band businesses have a tendency to struggle to deliver on successful campaigns and even go under as a result, it seems bizarre to target someone who is clearly making a good faith effort to deliver everything promised long after many would have given up. Especially to do so on the occasion of their delivering something. They're in need of a reality check, rather.

I'd love to know what the guy pledged and the subsequent reward tier he chose. Because as I said earlier, I got everything I paid for. Everything else after that, like the desktop wallpaper and the PDFs, is icing on the cake.

factotum

2017-05-17, 02:48 AM

I'd love to know what the guy pledged and the subsequent reward tier he chose. Because as I said earlier, I got everything I paid for.

If you look at the way the Kickstarter rolled out, I suspect the people like you and me who pledged early on before all the stretch goals were added are probably in the minority. There must be a lot of people out there who pledged only after the stretch goals and thus might reasonably expect those stretch goals to be implemented. Sure, there's no reason to be a jackass about it, but to assume everybody "got what they paid for" isn't reasonable either.

DavidBV

2017-05-17, 04:27 AM

Damn, I hadn't posted in the KS Updates in years, but that Dale creature made me recover my KS password so I could reply to him.

I've read weeks ago people complaining about not getting their books+crayons years later. I think Rich should maybe offer them the books and a refund on the crayons, being realistic. He probably should have sent the books first, even losing money, as a crayon can later be sent in a small cardboard envelope (or refunded)

About the original thread topic... yeah, it has been said already. No way Rich will make a choice like that and give up on things he has explicitly promised in exchange of pledges. He'd be wise if he made all the remainign bonus stories 10 pages long, but in the end if he has this very cool idea that takes 50 pages to unfold, he'll do it. And that's why this comic is great.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-17, 06:38 AM

If you look at the way the Kickstarter rolled out, I suspect the people like you and me who pledged early on before all the stretch goals were added are probably in the minority. There must be a lot of people out there who pledged only after the stretch goals and thus might reasonably expect those stretch goals to be implemented. Sure, there's no reason to be a jackass about it, but to assume everybody "got what they paid for" isn't reasonable either.

You're right that it's wrong to assume everyone pledged support for just the offered tiers and not the stretch goals. I actually pledged late because I wasn't sure if I could afford to get the tier offering all the books. Then it became a birthday present and I split the cost with my parents. But that was always the main thing I was interested in. It was the meat and potatoes. Everything else was the gravy. I loved the idea of all the other inclusive things (and getting the package with notepads, stickers, colouring book, etc, was awesome), but even four years later, the extras were just that to me: extras. I certainly appreciate them (and currently have all the desktop wallpapers on a rotation), but I never NEEDED them or demanded them. I was happy enough to get the books.

Also, I'm certain the money raised as the campaign continued wasn't just because of stretch goals. The campaign got a LOT of publicity as it went on, with Rich giving a few interviews and more people learning about it. It was also when Kickstarter was still becoming a relevant thing, so it, along with Double Fine's campaign, raised awareness for the platform in general. Plus, Rich added more tiers to the campaign as it went along. I think that's where the "all the books!" tier came from, because at that point, the funding allowed Rich to have ALL the books back in print, rather than just one or two, which was the original point of the campaign. Before, I only pledged for two books. Then the "all the books!" tier went up and I jumped on the chance.

EDIT: So I've been looking through the old campaign and the pledge tiers. I never understood how the Backer's Choice stories worked, but I see there's a $1,250 tier for a story of that supporter's choice. So that'd be the Belkar, Thekla, and CPPD stories. And the O-Chul story was indeed part of the originally planned campaign. That alone must be a major weight off Rich's shoulders.

King of Nowhere

2017-05-17, 07:21 AM

I for one am curious to read the missing kickstarter stories, and if that causes a small delay in the main comic, so be it. it means I'll be getting more oots at the end of it all. I admire rich's determination to deliver everything; trying to make good on promises is important to me.

regarding that dale guy, he looks misguided to me. that part about the forum beinhg shut down to prevent a riot makes me think he's a conspiracy theory guy, one of those paranoids who always read volumes in every small thing and is afterwards too set in his own theory to consider that hey, maybe happenstance does actually happen? so I went and left him a polite answer. especially because he is entitled to his opinion (though a little more diplomacy in expressing it couldn't hurt), and trying to shut him or censor him would be wrong.

hagnat

2017-05-17, 07:28 AM

Short anwser: No.

Long answer:
The backers deserve to get their due. We invested money and expectation in Rich. It was him who created the stretch goals, not us. I believe his kickstarter would be equally successful without a lot of the additional goals, and he is doing a lot more for them than we initially anticipated (heck, i was expecting a 16-page story for O-Chul, not this marvellous thing he did). His KS drive also was (or still is) one of the most backed KS in his genre. It would be poor form if he became another KS who failed to deliver what he promised.

That said, i expect Rich to fulfill all the goals he set for his KS, even if takes another 5 years for him to do so. No need to rush it, just keep doing the awesome job he has been doing. It sucks for some people who might not see what they paid for (RIP Wrecan), but its the best Rich can do to keep his word for the community as a whole.

sparkyinbozo

2017-05-17, 09:44 AM

pendell

2017-05-17, 09:50 AM

Is Rich a little kid that needs to be given a gold star for a partially finished job and be protected from mean Internet trolls? :smallconfused:

No, but I personally have found, in motivating people, that giving them praise for the work they do well goes further than harshly criticizing them for their failures. Some criticism is necessary, perhaps doubly if the person has a big head and an inflated sense of their capabilities, but not from someone who really is putting forth their maximum effort.

Speaking as a person who's been in business for two decades, many companies, especially software companies, routinely over-promise. Estimation is extremely difficult when there is any creative element involved, be it software or artistic creation.

So Rich's failure to estimate the amount of work vs. time etc. doesn't make him evil or a cad. It makes him human.

And unlike many businesspeople I know, he doesn't have engineers or underlings whom he can stick with the job of meeting the impossible deadline sales negotiated. He's doing it all himself.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way out of this. Even if every kickstarter backer, including the rude ones, absolved and forgave Rich, allowed him to dispense with any further rewards, I think Rich would still push them out anyway, out of his own sense of honor.

Others might forgive Rich for failing to deliver. Unless I misread him, Rich would not forgive himself.

My preferred solution is: Fine. Take a break from the main comic (it's been off for almost a month anyway), sit down, crank out all the rest of the kickstarter stuff. Even if it takes a year. Then maybe even take a week or two of actual vacation.

Then come back with only two tasks to deal with, ready to tackle them fresh.

And, while Rich is not a little kid who needs a gold star, I think you'll find that encouraging him will help his energy levels and help him work far more effectively than too much criticism for what he gets wrong.

Why? Because Rich is not a six-year-old child with an inflated sense of his own capabilities. Again, unless I misread him, he's got a fierce internal critic who has far worse things to say to him on a daily basis. Feeding that internal critic doesn't get the work done. Encouraging him, giving him the strength to pick up his drawing tools, does.

It'd be different, of course, if he didn't have that internal critic. And while I've never met him in person, I recognize the symptoms. I have them myself.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Vinyadan

2017-05-17, 10:02 AM

Is Rich a little kid that needs to be given a gold star for a partially finished job and be protected from mean Internet trolls? :smallconfused:

O man how would I love to be given a gold star a piece of gold as large as the sun gradually destroying itself by nuclear fusion reactions

TheNecrocomicon

2017-05-17, 10:16 AM

I don't know about how to handle resolving the kickstarter, but I think some more transparency and/or communication would go a long ways. At least for me, it's not necessarily the delay/lack of rewards, but that we don't hear back for long periods as promised deadline pass or the main comic stagnates. It's kind of like a relationship: it's okay to have difficulties or conflicts, but the silent treatment is killer.

This. So much this. I was going to write a longer response about "small delays" but you encapsulate the issue much better than I could.

This sort of a lengthy delay to the main comic would be perfectly fine with me, if it was something like a planned end-of-book or end-of-chapter hiatus, or at least something that was duly announced and/or explained in a reasonably forthcoming manner. Instead, it took three weeks to see even the merest tweet as to what was going on, with not a single official forum post of any kind until two days ago when the O'Chul storygraphic novel was released.

As much as the newest Kickstarter work is a wonderful accomplishment, any of us who didn't or couldn't luck out to become KS backers have simply been left hanging in the wind. At the same time, it is the general online viewers who are the ones who potentially move up to become Kickstarter backers, online PDF buyers, and so forth if they enjoy the experience of following the story. Continuing to treat online viewers as an afterthought or a non-entity can only lead to shooting your business in the foot in the long run.

DeliaP

2017-05-17, 11:27 AM

O man how would I love to be given a gold star a piece of gold as large as the sun gradually destroying itself by nuclear fusion reactions

Hmm... now that wouldn't work. Y'see, I believe Iron-56 is the most stable elemental isotope. Ones lighter than then tend to release energy by fusing together. Ones heavier than that have to undergo fission to release energy, and split into smaller ones.

Gold, being a lot heavier than iron, is pretty resistant to fusion into heavier atoms. It's also quite stable against the easiest kind of decays (split out a electron, converting a neutron to a proton, or spit out a couple of neutrons and protons together).

But, what exactly would be happening inside a star made entirely of gold?? Gravitational pressure would probably be pretty huge. Could that make the gold atoms turn into a gold-nucleus-and-electron plasma? And would the high pressure and temperature mean the cross-section for the nucleii to overcome their repulsion and collide would be high enough for collisions to take place? If so, it still probably wouldn't be fission: two gold nucleii go in, three ligher nucleii come out would be my guess as to the most likely collisions....

Oh, and...

He'd be wise if he made all the remainign bonus stories 10 pages long, but in the end if he has this very cool idea that takes 50 pages to unfold, he'll do it. And that's why this comic is great.

I could not agree more! And it's why I'll happily wait however long it takes for the Giant to complete this: because however long it takes, it'll be worth it. (And is also why I get occasionally frustrated by those whose impatient postings may actually make it less likely to be completed :smallfrown: )

Oh! I have an idea. The Giant gets paid a ton of money for the rights to turn OotS into an animated TV series, so he doesn't have to worry about money ever again. And is still working on book 6 when the TV series catches up. So "OotS The Animated Series" completes before the webcomic, but diverges completely from what the Giant has planned from about the arrival of OotS in Firmament. I reckon that could work? :smallwink:

DavidBV

2017-05-17, 11:54 AM

Incidentally,

Dale Lythgoe about 1 hour ago

It is clear I am fighting a brick wall here and that my comments are only upsetting both the fellow backers and myself. This has gone on far bigger than intended and whilst I am deeply angered and upset by Burlew's conduct, I will cease performing such actions on this particular avenue at this time.
Sorry to any backers who took offence.

Damn, all it took was asking.

dude123nice

2017-05-17, 01:35 PM

This. So much this. I was going to write a longer response about "small delays" but you encapsulate the issue much better than I could.

This sort of a lengthy delay to the main comic would be perfectly fine with me, if it was something like a planned end-of-book or end-of-chapter hiatus, or at least something that was duly announced and/or explained in a reasonably forthcoming manner. Instead, it took three weeks to see even the merest tweet as to what was going on, with not a single official forum post of any kind until two days ago when the O'Chul storygraphic novel was released.

As much as the newest Kickstarter work is a wonderful accomplishment, any of us who didn't or couldn't luck out to become KS backers have simply been left hanging in the wind. At the same time, it is the general online viewers who are the ones who potentially move up to become Kickstarter backers, online PDF buyers, and so forth if they enjoy the experience of following the story. Continuing to treat online viewers as an afterthought or a non-entity can only lead to shooting your business in the foot in the long run.

From my personal experience I can say that I can perfectly understand the silent treatment, and empathize with the behavior . It's an odd thing, when you fail to deliver on a task or responsibility that isn't urgent and doesn't have a fixed cutoff date, but that you WILLINGLY took upon yourself, and you tend to be kinda embarrassed. A loot of people in this situation tend to try to avoid the people for whom they are performing the task until they have actual progress to show. They will often slave away in complete isolation just to get as much of the task done as fast as they can.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-05-17, 03:20 PM

From my personal experience I can say that I can perfectly understand the silent treatment, and empathize with the behavior . It's an odd thing, when you fail to deliver on a task or responsibility that isn't urgent and doesn't have a fixed cutoff date, but that you WILLINGLY took upon yourself, and you tend to be kinda embarrassed. A loot of people in this situation tend to try to avoid the people for whom they are performing the task until they have actual progress to show. They will often slave away in complete isolation just to get as much of the task done as fast as they can.

Absolutely. It's critical to make the distinction between "actual malicious silent treatment" and "I'm just not going to bother saying anything until I have a product". I've definitely done the latter myself (and hopefully not the former, but I always endeavour to at least be civil with people I don't like).

It's just that Mr. Burlew's interactions with the forum community seem to be just surly and exasperated enough that it makes me wonder if the silence is deliberate (to some extent) or not. Then again, he is without a doubt a very busy man, and I'm pretty sure I would be frustrated too if I were in his place, having my hard work relentlessly picked apart in-depth as this forum is fond of doing at all times.

Kish

2017-05-17, 03:27 PM

SaintRidley

2017-05-17, 03:28 PM

Given the way a lot of the forum acts sometimes, surly would be the restrained form of my attitude if I were in Rich's shoes.

dude123nice

2017-05-17, 03:58 PM

I remember someone once posting a link to the first OOTS discussion thread ever made, back when the comic began. Rich seemed a bit more talkative back then, if I remember correctly. But let's face it. Trying to moderate this forum would probably disillusion anyone quite fast.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-05-17, 04:05 PM

Well, he mentioned that he no longer posts on the forum, or reads it more than he absolutely has to. As far as that goes, his not communicating with his readers here is deliberate, but it's not about the Kickstarter as such, nor personally aimed at any individual.

Given the way a lot of the forum acts sometimes, surly would be the restrained form of my attitude if I were in Rich's shoes.

Sure, and his bare-minimum forum presence, in all likelihood, stems from purely practical reasons (saving time, less distractions, etc.). If that silence is aimed at anyone, I think it would be aimed at the forum community in general for the over-the-top-obsessive behaviour, which people sometimes take so far into left field that they claim to know his work better than he does and assert wildly off-base or inappropriate stuff as a result. Not to mention Murphy's Law (or Rule 34) style problems like the past fanfiction incidents.

I do think he's showing an admirably restrained response to a lot of online backdraft that he's had to face over even the most trivial of issues. That said, I think Mr. Burlew gets a little too self-restrained to the point that it's hard for readers to figure out what's going on with the development of both the main comic and its Kickstarter add-ons.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-17, 04:17 PM

King of Nowhere

2017-05-17, 05:15 PM

I'm always blown away by how active this forum is. I don't mean that as a bad thing. But a friend of mine checked out the forum once, saw the thread for the latest comic, and said, "My, they're a talkative bunch."

I honestly don't know of any other webcomic with a fanbase so dedicated that they collect every snippet of quotes from the creator (and five of its own separate threads!), pour over every minute detail of each new comic, and speculate so much on nearly every line spoken (especially anything pertaining to the Monster in the Darkness).

Again, none of that is bad. Quite frankly, I think it's amazing. As a nobody writer with two books almost no one's read or heard of, I'd kill for that kind of dedicated fanbase. But it goes to show the high quality Rich puts out, even when it might be delayed for a variety of reasons. He earned this large fanbase. I'm not very active on the forum, but no only is it a large fanbase, but it seems like almost everyone here are wonderful people. Sure, you get the odd jackass, but they seem like a tiny minority.

the fanbase of brandon sanderson can be even more obsessive. every time the guy goes to a convention, there are a handful of his forumites who will interview him about the zaniest questions and record everything for the posterity. And since sanderson's worldbuilding goes very deep and is founded on consistent premises in an almost scientifical matter, I've seen some incredibly specific analysis. Like, denoting the kind of dedication one would normally reserve to a scientific paper

AchtungNight

2017-05-17, 11:54 PM

I will not consider the Kickstarter promises done until they are all done, like (I think) Rich's internal critic. Every fulfillment of them so far has been awesome, well worth the wait, and has added many valuable things to the main OOTS story too (especially the most recent prequel How the Paladin Got His Scar, no spoilers). I dearly want Rich to keep up the good work.

That said, it's ultimately his choice if he ever decides to back out. I would encourage him otherwise but don't think I would have a choice if that were the case.

There are in my opinion only three mortal sins a writer can commit, the penalty for which they would lose me as a reader. These sins are as follows:

1. Teasing up a story and then only releasing the whole or very important parts to people who pay the writer. If your story is available in a bookstore but also available for free somewhere like a library you are not violating this credo. If you are hiding your story and cussing out critics, legally suing people, and/or using violence or other methods to protect your story from readers who don't reward you somehow for the story (I'm sure we can all think of examples), you are violating. And if you violate this credo, you are not a writer but a con man in my opinion and should be treated as such.

2. Forbidding discussion of a story including feedback and fanfiction. Not listening is ok, but outright forbiddance and discouragement is something else. Discussion, questions, and other interpretations must be allowed. It's part of human nature and human rights.

3. Telling a really screwy and/or morally misguided story that has little if any redeeming value and then expecting positive reward for it. I also call this the Marvel sin for the numerous times Marvel Comics have violated it (Spider-Man Clones, One More Day, and Captain America Agent of Hydra are a few examples). Opinions vary as to what constitutes violations of this rule (I think EL James and Stephanie Meyer have violated it several times over, their fans might disagree), but it still exists. Everyone has the right to read what they like and give a story the judgement they believe it deserves. If your story violates this rule in my opinion, I will stop reading it. To quote a good Marvel writer to whose roots the comic needs to return in my opinion, enough said. Excelsior!

Rich has not committed any of these sins so far and I have faith he won't ever do it (I have to admit, he has come close to the third one a few times, but he's always won me back in the end with the right good plot/character developments, I pray he continues). So I'm going to stick with him unless and until things change and keep enjoying the good work as long as he keeps putting it out. I hope all his readers will do the same.

Douglas

2017-05-18, 12:55 AM

the fanbase of brandon sanderson can be even more obsessive. every time the guy goes to a convention, there are a handful of his forumites who will interview him about the zaniest questions and record everything for the posterity. And since sanderson's worldbuilding goes very deep and is founded on consistent premises in an almost scientifical matter, I've seen some incredibly specific analysis. Like, denoting the kind of dedication one would normally reserve to a scientific paper
It's gotten to the point where sometimes he has to ask the fan whether they're from his forums or not before he answers. Someone not from the forums is probably looking for something the forumgoers consider simple, obvious, and very old news that they learned long ago. Someone from the forums may be looking for something so esoteric that a non-forumgoer wouldn't even understand what Brandon was talking about.

I sometimes find it interesting to delve into the forum's archive of information, but at the same time none of it is really needed to understand any book's central plot.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 07:49 AM

One More Day
I HATE that. Seriously. I still can't believe it.

As for the topic.. I was about to post the kickstarter agreement(the one in the terms of use, which explains the relationship of the creator and the backer) so we could discuss it a bit, but remembered that legal advice is forbidden (which is honestly a good idea.) Suffice it to say that it looks reasonable and the people who act so disgustingly entitled, have probably only read half of it. The half that binds the creator to deliver, to be precise. Obviously, they haven't read the parts that clarify that you're not ordering something but are helping to create something new, there may be delays, changes or unexpected obstacles (like, say, injury. A certain thumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html)comes to mind). I also think that Rich is making a good faith effort to fulfill his obligations. Complaining while he's still working on it because it's taking more time than he thought, is worse than pointless.

Anyway, I actually went and had a look at his um... work-o-meter? I have to say now, wow I had no idea up to this point how badly he had screwed himself... You can't expect these things not to take a ****load of time... It would be unreasonable even if he had pocketed a million+ from the kickstarter. Which, as I understand, he didn't, because this was actually to reprint the books (people wanted to buy and he didn't have capital to reprint them), so a lot of this money was lost immediately (correct me if I'm wrong).

Seriously, that's a bad deal for any creator. Even worse he has to juggle all these (along with the main comic and merchandise), which in my experience kills any creative momentum that had been built up. When you juggle multiple projects, the time it will take to be done is greater than the sum of the times it would take to finish each one individually for that reason. That could take a while. I think his best bet, is to finish the basic rewards (as some people have mentioned here) and take it easier on the bonus stuff. That's because I actually want to see more stuff from him unrelated to the OotS and if he doesn't work on anything but OotS until he's done with the kickstarter, this could take a while...

If anything, that Rich hasn't attempted to abandon any of these yet, shows he has a lot of integrity. And more than a healthy amount of bullheadedness. I've seen kickstarters crash and burn with fewer obstacles and a team behind them...

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-18, 08:05 AM

Yendor

2017-05-18, 08:09 AM

He ain't quitting. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/865145564970831872)

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-18, 08:15 AM

He ain't quitting. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/865145564970831872)

Which is honestly commendable. I said I'd be 100% okay if he said he couldn't do it anymore, but I'm also happy he's pushing through. I don't care how long it takes to finish, but it's still commendable he's pushing on.

Calavera

2017-05-18, 08:46 AM

Is Rich a little kid that needs to be given a gold star for a partially finished job and be protected from mean Internet trolls? :smallconfused:

Effectively, yes. Anybody here who gives him less than absolute sycophancy tends to get warned or banned.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-18, 08:56 AM

Effectively, yes. Anybody here who gives him less than absolute sycophancy tends to get warned or banned.

That is BS of the highest degree. Just off the top of my head, pendell and Rich have crossed quite sharp words on more than one occasion and pendell is still around.

You seem to be confusing "sycophancy" with manners. People who are abusive get banned. People who disagree - sometimes quite loudly - do not. And when both happen in the same individual, it's the first one that gets them banned, not the second one.

GW

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 09:12 AM

That's something I honestly forgot: the whole point of the original project was to get ONE book back in print (War & XPs). But as a result of the campaign's success, he not only got ALL the books back in print and available to buy, but he got an astounding amount of publicity that boosted the comic even further. As far as I know, all the books are STILL in print and available to buy. Five years since the Kickstarter launched, the books are still available. I'd say that's a heck of a success to me.

I'm not sure if I would call it a success, exactly. Unsold books for five years isn't exactly successful. From the point of view that the kickstarter made a lot of money and generated a lot of publicity, you're right. But ultimately, what matters is how much you have to do per dollar of profit. It's not a failure, certainly, but it doesn't look like a good deal for the creator. I think he must have been caught up in the moment of success and didn't think some of the rewards through.

He ain't quitting. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/865145564970831872)

See, that's what I was saying about bullheadedness :smalltongue:
Still, I'm hoping to see something unrelated to the OotS from him. Maybe when he has a smaller workload, he'll work on a small project in parallel. After all the OotS started a long time ago and some of his early choices are limiting him now. The most blatant example being, he doesn't have many women main characters to work on.

Effectively, yes. Anybody here who gives him less than absolute sycophancy tends to get warned or banned.

Why don't you give us some proof of that? It clashes with my experience. Lately everyone's been pulling stuff out of their ass, so I think it's time for a bit of fact checking. Or calling out the liars in this case.

NerdyKris

2017-05-18, 09:17 AM

He ain't quitting. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/865145564970831872)

I think everyone trying to suggest quitting needs to keep in mind that there were 14,952 backers donating an average of $83 a piece. Even if 500 people say "okay you can quit", that's only 3% of the contributors. If even ONE person doesn't agree, then that's one person that views Rich as a scam artist now. And it will be way more than one person who will feel that way.

The only person who can make the decision is Rich, and no amount of petitions or posts are going to change that, unless it has 14,952 signatures.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-18, 09:20 AM

I'm not sure if I would call it a success, exactly. Unsold books for five years isn't exactly successful. From the point of view that the kickstarter made a lot of money and generated a lot of publicity, you're right. But ultimately, what matters is how much you have to do per dollar of profit. It's not a failure, certainly, but it doesn't look like a good deal for the creator. I think he must have been caught up in the moment of success and didn't think some of the rewards through.

They weren't unsold. They were out of print. As in sold out. The whole point of the Kickstarter was to get them back in print in order to sell them and keep an income going to support the comic. Which was a resounding success, since they're still all available to buy. As I said myself earlier, Rich himself admitted he got caught up in the excitement and over-promised, adding on new rewards and promises as the campaign continued.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 09:27 AM

They weren't unsold. They were out of print. As in sold out. The whole point of the Kickstarter was to get them back in print in order to sell them and keep an income going to support the comic. Which was a resounding success, since they're still all available to buy. As I said myself earlier, Rich himself admitted he got caught up in the excitement and over-promised, adding on new rewards and promises as the campaign continued.

Yeah I know they were sold out, I'm talking about the ones reprinted by the kickstarter that you said are still available. Doesn't that mean he reprinted more books than he got popular? Anyway, sorry I missed that you had already said that "getting caught up in the moment" thing earlier.

By the way there's a new comic :smallsmile: but it doesn't show up at the forum sidebar yet.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-18, 09:34 AM

In the meantime, that Dale guy in the Kickstarter comments? He's still dogging Rich over his "absence" for a WEEK. (https://twitter.com/SeonHealey/status/865204287386865665)

Did Rich kill this guy's dog or something? He's constantly tweeting at Rich or commenting on Kickstarter posts.

SaintRidley

2017-05-18, 09:35 AM

I'm pretty sure having that print run still in stock at this point was Rich's goal.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 09:38 AM

I'm pretty sure having that print run still in stock at this point was Rich's goal.

Ah, then scratch that. The promised rewards are still crazy though :smalltongue:

Keltest

2017-05-18, 09:41 AM

Yeah I know they were sold out, I'm talking about the ones reprinted by the kickstarter that you said are still available. Doesn't that mean he reprinted more books than he got popular? Anyway, sorry I missed that you had already said that "getting caught up in the moment" thing earlier.

By the way there's a new comic :smallsmile: but it doesn't show up at the forum sidebar yet.

Not necessarily. Since he had income again, he could have potentially ordered more reprints as necessary to keep up with demand. And even if he didn't, overshooting a little bit isn't going to cause the same kinds of problems as undershooting it.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 10:31 AM

Rogar Demonblud

2017-05-18, 10:52 AM

Ah, then scratch that. The promised rewards are still crazy though :smalltongue:

Yeah, that's a pretty good measure for a Kickstarter that's going to have problems down the road. Lots of stretch goals isn't an issue per se (Girl Genius had a batch, but they were 1-2 page paper doll things), but lots of complex things are (because they tend to suck up all available time and then some, as Rich has ruefully complained).

Which is why I didn't back the new Alternity one, because there stretch goals included another ~400 pages of rule books. And surprise, surprise, they haven't even been able to get out the little freebie thing that should've been ready to go the day after the drive concluded.

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-18, 11:14 AM

Red flags 1 and 2. His name is AllKnowingEdgeworth.
Red flag 3. He said "technically".

Steer clear.

They also private messaged me on here. I won't say who it is since 1) They asked me to, and 2) Targeting specific members of the community is against the rules. They tried to convince me they weren't the same guy on Twitter, but they sure did a lousy job convincing me, since they were using the exact same arguments and phrasing. And oddly enough, responded to me on here at almost the same time as the guy on Twitter. Heh, also suddenly changing their argument from "it's not just a week..."

littlebum2002

2017-05-18, 12:44 PM

While forgoing promises certainly isn't (and shouldn't be) on the radar, the project never actually said when they would be done. He could do the Police Dept story within his already planned time frame but save the Julio, Dim Sun and Sir Francois stories for epilogues.

pendell

2017-05-18, 12:45 PM

That is BS of the highest degree. Just off the top of my head, pendell and Rich have crossed quite sharp words on more than one occasion and pendell is still around.
GW

Quite so.

pendell's guide to disagreeing with Rich (or anyone) and not getting banned.

1) Establish rapport/break the ice. Say something nice about the other person and commend them on doing something right. Surely the other person does something at least halfway right, yes?

2) Point out possible improvements. Focus on the problem and on how it can be made better, putting yourself on the same side as the person you're talking to. Subtext should be that the person you're addressing is an intelligent individual who wants to do better. Don't get off the subject and turn it into a critique of the person in general, or on things irrelevant to the topic.

Right: "Perhaps a tip jar would alleviate some of the financial issues you've described?"

Wrong: "You're an idiot because you insist on setting targets you can't meet."

Wronger: "Your failure to do X indicates that you are a stupid, horrible person who should not be breathing the same atmosphere as us enlightened people. Find a volcano and throw yourself in".

Fun Fact #1: If you rip into a person , they will become irritated with you. And if they're irritated they won't listen to you even if the suggestion is good. If anything, the fact that you're right will make them even more angry and resistant than otherwise.

Fun Fact #2: Most people believe themselves to be good and follow their personal moral compasses with some degree of fidelity. This means that if you use a mistake of some kind and use it as a platform for character assassination, they will A) be offended B) leap to their own defense. So rather than discussing the problem, which could be solved, you've put the other person in a dock where they have to defend themselves. And this is an argument you will never, ever win.

So if you want people to listen to you, don't tear into them for their moral failings.

If perchance you do find yourself across the table from a genuinely evil person -- a Middle Eastern dictator, say -- then bringing up their manifold personal failures is not likely to make them more willing to listen to your proposal to, say, give up their nuclear weapons. So stick to the issues you can solve.

2A) Corrollary: When dealing with a person of considerable pride and/or intellect, it is a bad idea to bring up any issues of which they are already well aware. Consider the update schedule here: Rich knows very well how his update schedule compares to the rest of the industry. I suspect, from conversations we've had, that he's already tried many things to maximize his productivity, and hearing the same inane suggestions over and over again -- things he's already considered and either found reason not to or have already implemented -- just irritate him.

So if the person has already heard it 1000 times, the odds are pretty good the 1001th time will not be decisive. Just let it go.

3) As you opened with goodwill, close with goodwill as well. Something positive, uplifting, like "I hope to see many more great comics" as opposed to "I hope you quit and get a job pumping gas". By making a suggestion, you're making the person do some work, letting them down gently will help them swallow the pill more easily.

Not to mention, it's always a good idea to maintain the best relationships with everyone you can, even if they irritate you. The person who's irritating you today may be the person who you're interviewing with tomorrow, so it's best to try to avoid saying or doing something that would burn bridges unless its absolutely necessary. You just might find you'll need that bridge later.

This isn't unique to me, by the way, it's business communication 101, a set of principles that works equally well in board rooms and job interviews as it does in web fora.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

King of Nowhere

2017-05-18, 01:50 PM

I am pretty sure I got infraction points for complaining politely about forum rules, many years ago.
I'm not referring to another time when I complained vocally about forum rules and got more infraction points, because at the time I wanted to leave a strongly worded last post before quitting the forum; the ban on arguments that can be flame baits just happens to forbid all discussion that I find more interesting, so I had lost interest in this forum. I came back about a year later, though. But anyway, even polite complains and suggestions that forum rules should be changed can earn infraction points.
i disagree with it, but this is ultimately rich's home, and we can accept the rules he set or quit.

Yeah I know they were sold out, I'm talking about the ones reprinted by the kickstarter that you said are still available. Doesn't that mean he reprinted more books than he got popular? Anyway, sorry I missed that you had already said that "getting caught up in the moment" thing earlier.

By the way there's a new comic :smallsmile: but it doesn't show up at the forum sidebar yet.

rich was planning to have a long-term storage of books he could sell to have a steady income for years to come. so it can be called a long term investment. someone well versed in economy may express all kinds of opinions on it, and maybe find some strategy that was marginally more efficient, but it is certainly a decision that makes sense. there is an extra storage cost, but a bigger print run has a lower cost per unit, and making one single big print run costs rich less time to sort out through everything than it would cost him to order a new smaller print run every year.

Douglas

2017-05-18, 02:00 PM

Yeah, that's a pretty good measure for a Kickstarter that's going to have problems down the road. Lots of stretch goals isn't an issue per se (Girl Genius had a batch, but they were 1-2 page paper doll things), but lots of complex things are (because they tend to suck up all available time and then some, as Rich has ruefully complained).

Which is why I didn't back the new Alternity one, because there stretch goals included another ~400 pages of rule books. And surprise, surprise, they haven't even been able to get out the little freebie thing that should've been ready to go the day after the drive concluded.
Having seen how several "more money means more stretch goals" type fundraisers turned out, I think one of the most important lessons any crowdfunding person needs to learn is that the resource that is the most important to conserve and budget carefully is your own personal time and attention. A good stretch goal should be one where most or all of the work required to provide it will be done by the money that unlocked it. Getting $50000 or however much extra does not magically give you 10 more hours per day to work on producing what you promised, but it can get a business you're paying to allocate more of their resources to you.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-18, 02:06 PM

martianmister

2017-05-18, 02:10 PM

I'm not a backer so I missed the whole drama. What exactly happened? Did Rich missed some kind of deadline?

Keltest

2017-05-18, 02:14 PM

I'm not a backer so I missed the whole drama. What exactly happened? Did Rich missed some kind of deadline?

Rich was a little bit late with his Kickstarter update because he was really close to finishing the O-chul story, and possibly other undisclosed distractions. Somebody has decided that he is owed an explanation and is being rather rude in demanding one, thinking for some inexplicable reason that this will make Rich more likely to answer him rather than more likely to tell him to shove off.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-18, 02:15 PM

I'm not a backer so I missed the whole drama. What exactly happened? Did Rich missed some kind of deadline?

He set himself the goal of posting an update on a given day. Said goal was achieved I think twice before, but he missed this last one because he was so close to completing the O-Chul story that he keep working on it. To be clear, the other two times it was just something like "Yep, still here, still trying to get everything done, see you in a couple of months".

The "drama", such as it is, is that a couple of people (possibly just the one posting under various names) has been leaving fairly angry messages in both the KS pages and twitter accusing Rich of violating his promises because he missed this arbitrary deadline.

GW

littlebum2002

2017-05-18, 02:31 PM

I am pretty sure I got infraction points for complaining politely about forum rules, many years ago.

Complaining about the rules is not in the same plane as, and I quote, "giv[ing Rich Burlew] less than absolute sycophancy" (src (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22007381&postcount=42)). Yes, the forum is a tight-run ship were you obey the rules, or you leave, with little room for changing said rules. But since there is no rule that says "you must agree with Rich Burlew's opinions", it doesn't apply to the ludicrous claim made by Calavera.

GW

Don't forget that infraction points don't mean anything unless you get a LOT of them within a year. I've gotten scrubbed a couple times, and, if my memory serves me right, each time I got something like 1/20th of the points needed for a ban. So getting scrubbed isn't really a big deal, unless you do the same thing 19 more times.

My point is, this forum may have very specific rules about what content is allowed, but they're fairly lenient in giving breaks when you make a mistake. I've been in forums where you get perma-banned the first time you break even the slightest rule.

Also, that person on twitter is an asshat of the highest order, but then again Twitter seems to attract a lot of trolls so it isn't very surprising.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-18, 02:33 PM

I am pretty sure I got infraction points for complaining politely about forum rules, many years ago.
I'm not referring to another time when I complained vocally about forum rules and got more infraction points, because at the time I wanted to leave a strongly worded last post before quitting the forum; the ban on arguments that can be flame baits just happens to forbid all discussion that I find more interesting, so I had lost interest in this forum. I came back about a year later, though. But anyway, even polite complains and suggestions that forum rules should be changed can earn infraction points.
i disagree with it, but this is ultimately rich's home, and we can accept the rules he set or quit.

Complaining, politely or no, about the rules, is against the rules. Maybe you think it's an unreasonable rule but it's not like the infraction points came out of nowhere. However there is no rule that states you can't say anything bad about the OotS or Rich Burlew. And the notion that "Anybody here who gives him less than absolute sycophancy tends to get warned or banned" is rubbish. Let's see if Calavera who said that "Effectively" Rich is a little kid, will get warned or banned, so we can check if their little assertion is correct...

I agree that most topics I find interesting are banned here, but I also think there's a time and place for everything and they want this place not to be the place for certain things.

KorvinStarmast

2017-05-18, 03:02 PM

But as a result of the campaign's success, he not only got ALL the books back in print and available to buy, A glass half empty view of that is "What, still in inventory? Sales are disappointing." :smallconfused: (Looks over shoulder in fear of share holders carrying torches and pitchforks).
That's a bit of humor and a bit of experience from working in retail for some years.

It speaks well of Rich's character that he intends to grind away at his work meter and keep his promises.

hroþila

2017-05-18, 03:58 PM

If everybody here agrees that Twitter person is a major a-hole, why are we giving them a loudspeaker and a platform again?

Rogar Demonblud

2017-05-18, 04:20 PM

Because it's fun to bash on him, I presume. I quit Twitter long ago because of people like that, and have never regretted the decision.

King of Nowhere

2017-05-19, 12:21 PM

I remember clearly rich stating that he started drawing something for the kickstarter, then he upgraded to the new art style, and so he scrapped what he started and remade it in the new art style. I was also convinced it was O-chul story, but I can't find any reference to in the the old kickstarter updates. then maybe it was something else, like therkla, but again I could not find a mention of drawing again something. maybe it was in the forum, or on twitter, or maybe i missed it? or maybe I'm remembering wrong?
But, if I am not remembering wrong, I would like if someone could show me where that statement is. Because that would be a pretty good argument that rich is still very determined to do his best.

Complaining about the rules is not in the same plane as, and I quote, "giv[ing Rich Burlew] less than absolute sycophancy" (src (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22007381&postcount=42)). Yes, the forum is a tight-run ship were you obey the rules, or you leave, with little room for changing said rules. But since there is no rule that says "you must agree with Rich Burlew's opinions", it doesn't apply to the ludicrous claim made by Calavera.

GW

I never said Calavera was right.
I was merely stating that there are indeed opinions that people are forbidden from expressing on this forum, even if expressed politely.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-19, 12:32 PM

I was merely stating that there are indeed opinions that people are forbidden from expressing on this forum, even if expressed politely.

Yes, that much is obvious. Just off the top of my head, this is a small subset of opinions you are not allowed to express in this forum, no matter how politely:

Historical opinions
Political opinions
Religious opinions
Legal opinions

Am I to understand, then, that your comment was completely unrelated to the conversation? Just a random thought that you decided to open your post with? Because it felt like you thought that it had something to do with the accusation leveled by Calavera.

Grey Wolf

Onyavar

2017-05-19, 02:55 PM

Hi, just read the first five posts when the thread started. Three pages now? Wow. THANKS to all those who explained to that guy that The Giant's to-do-list is The Giant's business.

NerdyKris

2017-05-19, 06:35 PM

Because it's fun to bash on him, I presume. I quit Twitter long ago because of people like that, and have never regretted the decision.

I would tread lightly with this. Flaming someone on the forum is still flaming someone on the forum, even if you're pointing it at their Twitter handle. The spirit of the rule is not to flame other readers, not to allow unfiltered flaming of anyone unfortunate enough not to have a forum account.

Jay R

2017-05-20, 11:38 AM

We just got 96 pages of story, and there's this much annoyance?

Frankly, I still haven't come down from the high of getting so much this week.

Finagle

2017-05-20, 01:07 PM

Four years and the Kickstarter still isn't done? Is that a record? Yeah, this is why I steer clear of Kickstarter. It lowered the barrier to entry for cool projects. Hooray! Sounds like a great idea, right? Let people do things that professional companies would never allow them to do!

Well it turns out we had those professional companies and barriers to entry for a reason. Unskilled people are fricken incompetent when it comes to getting things done. Sometimes they get it right, but usually not. They're just way over their heads and it never occurred to them that it would be this hard to do. The obvious thing to do in this situation is hire professionals to help, but as this costs money they're quite reluctant to do it. When your solution to getting the manufacturing done is "search Alibaba and take the first company that pops up" like so many Kickstarteyou know you're in trouble. The author had his printing done domestically which makes it much easier but is more expensive and you have to wait in line.

Hey, look at the good side: lots of people just give up on their Kickstarters when it's too much work. They just say "screw this!", abandon the project, keep the money, and let the backers squawk. The author is pretty remarkable in that the money is likely long gone but he's still on the job. I know that if I had ordered my own custom comic for $1250 4 years ago I would be not pleased. There are people who hadn't met 4 years ago and now they've got a toddler, you know? Patreon is full of people who would jump at $1250 for a custom work. I get the idea the author has a ton of paying work on his plate and his webcomic is honestly an unwelcome distraction at this point. It kind of sucks for me as a fan but as a businessman I totally understand, you have to do the work that gets the cash coming in.

I finally broke down last year and backed a single Kickstarter for twenty bucks. Guess what happened: one of the principals took the money and fled the country. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnrenfroe/outlier-dictionary-of-chinese-characters/posts/1597973) Legal action is ongoing. Great, right? Fortunately the project is someone's academic research so it didn't get abandoned. Good luck, hooray. I guess. So my point is that this all sucks, but it could be a lot worse.

If you like gawking at train wrecks and want to feel better about OOTS you can check out this list of Controversial or Fraudulent Kickstarters from boardgaming. (https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/160421/controversial-or-fraudulent-kickstarters) Page after page of people out of their depth who decide it's too much work and just keep the money. Hey, at least OOTS is the author's own intellectual property, there are people out there who start producing without bothering to find out who owns the rights first. :smallconfused:

Peelee

2017-05-20, 01:22 PM

factotum

2017-05-20, 01:39 PM

I think it's a bit unfair to criticise Rich for over-promising on the Kickstarter, when one of the main things that has slowed him down since was something out of the blue and impossible to predict--namely, cutting his drawing hand badly on that piece of glass not long after the Kickstarter wrapped up. Maybe without that he would have already finished all the Kickstarter stuff.

Jasdoif

2017-05-20, 02:14 PM

OK, since I haven't seen this linked yet and it's quite topical....

My feelings on the Kickstarter are...complex.

Obviously, it was enormously successful and I am deeply grateful to all the fans who supported me at the time. I was in a deep financial hole before the Kickstarter as a result of the fact that we were out of books to sell, and had no capital with which to print new ones. While I didn't pocket any of the money that was raised directly, the printings that were financed have restored a portion of my regular pre-Kickstarter income—the books that are on sale at Ookoodook and on store shelves are still from the same print runs we did with the Kickstarter money. I'm very happy about that.

However, the fact that I so spectacularly over-promised on freebies and artwork has become a huge ongoing problem for me. I'm constantly juggling trying to keep up with the regular strip and working on the Kickstarter backlog, and I think we can all see that the regular strip is suffering for it (in quantity if not quality). I can't put the regular strip on hiatus until I finish all the Kickstarter work—even beyond the fact that the non-backer fans would riot, presumably the folks who backed the Kickstarter did so because they love the regular strip. But neither can I just plug away at the regular strip and ignore the Kickstarter work, because those people paid for that material. It's even worse trying to carve out time to do a crayon drawing or digital portrait because I am literally serving one fan instead of my entire readership—but a fan who personally supported me with an above average amount of money. It is difficult to make judgements on what to work on next as a result, and I think the end result is that no one is really happy.

None of that is the fault of the backers, of course. It's all on me. I promised too much, especially in the waning days of the Kickstarter drive, and I can't produce as much as I used to due to the lingering effects of my hand injury (which was unforeseeable). If I had it to do over again, I would worry less about pushing that number upwards in the final days and focus more on rewards that didn't take as much of my personal creative time. My total wouldn't have been so high, but maybe I would be done with all of the work by now. Certainly, if I ever do another one (after all of this is finished, naturally) I will try to keep it more tightly focused on the goal rather than add on a bunch of free extras, even if it means that it raises less.

SilverCacaobean

2017-05-21, 07:27 AM

OK, since I haven't seen this linked yet and it's quite topical....

So the problem indeed was that he had no capital to print books. I can't help but wonder if he could have avoided all this, if he'd decided to go the pdf route back then...

Vinyadan

2017-05-21, 08:43 AM

If you want some webcomic/gaming kickstarter drama, there's also Goblins. Goblins author Thunt decided to make a card game from his comic. Drama #1 is that this was likely a breach of contract relating to his partnership with Blind Ferret Entertainment*, which led to the end of the partnership, and some big rework of his homepage as well as domain problem, since both had been paid for by BFE. Anyway, Thunt made the Kickstarter this way: he gave a lease for use of his intellectual property to a second enterprise specialized in board and card games. This enterprise then opened the Kickstarter.
The Kickstarter was successful. Then the guy from the enterprise disappeared with the money. Thunt is in Canada, the enterprise was in the US, which might have made things a bit more complicated. Since the Kickstarter had been opened by the enterprise guy, Thunt had no way to modify the Kickstarter page to make updates or such. Luckily, there is a clause almost universally used when making contracts between authors and publishers, which says that, if the publisher doesn't publish the work for which he has been given the rights within a certain time, the contract is void. So e.g. you write Simbelimpe Unchained, and you sign a contract with FoxTreat Publishing that gives them 15 years of publishing rights for Simbelimpe Unchained: you add a clause that says that FoxTreat Publishing must publish Simbelimpe Unchained within one year from the signing of the contract, or they lose all rights. When this time had gone by, Thunt was able to send a DMCA takedown notice to Kickstarter because the guy who had opened the Kickstarter no longer had the right to use Thunt's intellectual property. So the page was finally closed.
However, Thunt's comic had suffered a concrete image damage. So he's taken it on himself to make the cards and he's still working on them.

*This is just speculation on my side because of this post by Thunt (http://www.goblinscomic.org/big-changes-for-goblins/) and Sohmer's twitter reaction (https://twitter.com/sohmer/status/339205165791985665).

Anyway, I think that the Giant can't realistically ask for help or pay externals or even have some unpaid college kid do stuff for him. The reason is that his style is way too personal. His dialogues are his own. And it's all very closely knitted together; OotS is amazingly compact and coherent. Another artist might ask a colourist to work on it, but OotS with another colourist would look very different, because the art is so synthetic, that colour has even bigger significance than normal. I say colourist, because I think we all agree that getting another artist for the complete drawings also isn't really an option. What about noses and all that?

Also, not notifying because something big is in the work is something I can empathize with, because it's a mistake I also do, but it still is a mistake. However, while I am not getting stuff out of this because I'm no backer, I still prefer the Giant honouring his KS deals at the expense of his free comic. Reason #1 is that the simple fact that there is extra OotS material out there interests me a lot. Reason #2 is that the quality of OotS depends imho mostly on the Giant's work ethic. So I'd rather see that ethic holding up.

pendell

2017-05-21, 09:46 AM

We just got 96 pages of story, and there's this much annoyance?

Frankly, I still haven't come down from the high of getting so much this week.

You did. Those of us who weren't kickstarter pledges didn't get anything. But I will wait patiently and buy the O-chul story when it comes out, I think. Reviews in the thread to it seem to be quite happy with it.

I think it's a bit unfair to criticise Rich for over-promising on the Kickstarter, when one of the main things that has slowed him down since was something out of the blue and impossible to predict--namely, cutting his drawing hand badly on that piece of glass not long after the Kickstarter wrapped up. Maybe without that he would have already finished all the Kickstarter stuff

I doubt that last, honestly. The thumb injury was years ago and he's still digging his way out. He promised a lot of work and I suspect getting it all done is proving taxing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

factotum

2017-05-21, 10:12 AM

I doubt that last, honestly. The thumb injury was years ago

With a very serious injury like that you *never* fully regain the function you had before, so drawing the strips is going to have been slower over all those years than it would otherwise have been.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-21, 10:21 AM

I doubt that last, honestly. The thumb injury was years ago and he's still digging his way out.

That logic cuts both ways. If the thumb injury has slowed his throughput by half, he would easily have finished all KS stuff by now, because it has been years. We don't know if it is as bad as halved, but we do know he is permanently slowed down by it.

But discussing that kind of hypothetical is not particularly useful. I suspect that whatever slowdown the thumb causes, it is not comparable to the slowdown caused by the new art style, and we know we need that new style, even if it slows down the production rate, because without its challenge/growth, Rich would simply not be motivated enough to keep working on the comic anyway.

It is what it is - no different, in the end, than complaining that {football|editing|tv series|other} slows down the next book of Song & Fire. That's the problem/strength of art: it cannot be as reliable as an engineered process: sometimes it flows like a river, sometimes it flows like a glacier, and sometimes it flows like water vapour - which is to say, you have a empty riverbed, and all inspiration is nowhere to be found. Every attempt at "mass producing" art is doomed to failure because mass production kills art: what we crave is a je ne sais quoi feature of human dedication and attention to detail and, yes, mistakes and hand-made-ness too that make the whole seem organic and alive.

Now, does it suck to not have had the chance to participate in the KS? Yes, it does, and I do feel your pain for effectively having got just 2 comic last month (#1070 & the May page of the calendar*). I do wish Rich had announced it in advance, so we could brace for the shock. And I'd recommend he put htPghS** on sale as a pdf immediately, even though I understand he is still really concerned about hurting future recycled paper book sales down the line if he does that, because it would help lift the spirits of a lot of people who are feeling a touch abandoned right now, and from my own experience, it's like {Saturnalia|Christmas|Diwali|Hanukkah} come early.

But ultimately, this is not that unusual for OotS, and a number of other webcomics (and heck, just good ol' regular storytelling - see aSoIaF. I'm sure even the greek city-states complained that Homer wasn't cranking out his followup to the Illiad quickly enough). We survived the thumb injury, we'll survive this - and hey, at least the reason for the lack of strips is a heck of a lot better than "oh, damn, he may not be able to continue drawing at all" that we had early on in the thumb crisis.

Grey Wolf

* Yes, I count that. I only read each calendar page on their month, because I don't need a calendar, but I'm happy to pay for 12 extra pages per year, even if it means having them around a bunch of boxes with numbers in a corner

**And doesn't that acronym just roll off the tongue

hamishspence

2017-05-21, 10:23 AM

We don't know if it is as bad as halved, but we do know he is permanently slowed down by it.

Yup: he described it back in 2015:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19163131&postcount=70

pendell

2017-05-21, 11:45 AM

Fair point. In any event he's busting his tail to overcome that loss of function and whatever unspecified medical condition got him out of the 9-to-5 grind and in to webcomics in the first place, and he is diligently determined to fulfill all his promises despite these obstacles.

He has my respect for that, and if that makes me a sycophant, well, too bad.

And as I've said before, I haven't seen many goals in business that weren't missed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Ruck

2017-05-21, 01:45 PM

It is what it is - no different, in the end, than complaining that {football|editing|tv series|other} slows down the next book of Song & Fire.

Not to digress, but assuming you mean A Song of Ice and Fire, I'm not sure George R.R. Martin even has any particular interest in finishing the series at this point. (The show is going to finish before he does, thus alleviating the pressure to bring closure to the story; he spends more time going to conventions and living the life of a celebrity fantasy/TV writer than writing; he's struggled to write his story ever since he finished the original planned trilogy.) I feel confident we don't have to worry about that with Rich, at least.

keybounce

2017-05-21, 02:05 PM

... I get the idea the author has a ton of paying work on his plate and his webcomic is honestly an unwelcome distraction at this point. It kind of sucks for me as a fan but as a businessman I totally understand, you have to do the work that gets the cash coming in. ...

If I remember correctly, Rich has said that he is basically a book publishing company that prints free preview pages from time to time.

In other words, my understanding of his model is, The books pay the bills, and the web comics is advertising.

So his business is writing books. Whether that's a 95 page book that I want to buy and have to wait for, or a bigger book that has already been previewed with a small exclusive section at the front, it's books.

I'm just happy that I get free entertainment while others keep his lights on.

Goblin_Priest

2017-05-22, 10:46 AM

I noticed one commenter in the Kickstarter comments who's been...quite demanding. Both of these quotes are from the same guy:

All of this is downright rude to me. That's not even the worst that jackass said. He had the gall to say, "I speak for the silent majority when I say that Rich Burlew has obliterated all trust I had in him." He even compared Rich to Donald Trump. And all this over stretch goal content. As I said, aside from the crayon drawings, all the main Kickstarter campaign promises have been fulfilled. Everything else is bonus material in my eyes.

EDIT: Wow. And this same guy has been tweeting Rich with the same schtick. What the hell is wrong with this guy?

Well... With the gross income made, would it be that hard to hire some digital art student part time to get some of the drawing done? It's not an overly complicated art style... Could probably run a competition at local schools with a prize, take in the one that most closely resembles his own art, pay him a training period to further better imitate, and then pay him to do the desired art. He could probably have gotten all of the promised work done years ago by spending less of 5% of his gross kickstarting funds.

I've got no personal stake in this, but the pace of things has gotten really, really slow. I was just about to take it out of my bookmarks when the last update came up, I had given up on it. Maybe it's just me, but I read the comic for its story and its joke, not for its art. The visual art contributes to the piece, but I would much rather have regular publishing drawn by an assistant under his supervision than the crawl we now have.

137beth

2017-05-22, 11:16 AM

I missed backing the Kickstarter when it ran. Later, I heard the Giant said that the Kickstarter-exclusive PDF stories would eventually be sold in print. At the time, though, I was in a living situation that made physical books to much of an inconvenience (I still prefer digital, though I have a bit more leeway for print now). At that time, I assumed that I just wouldn't be able to get those stories.

But then The Giant started selling his books as PDFs, and I bought each of them as they were released. Now, I'm very excited for the eventual release of the Kickstarter PDFs, because I hope to be able to buy and read them. With that said, I'd much rather the author take his time and make the stories as good as they can be. I'll always prefer an excellent comic later than a mediocre comic soon. But, unlike the KS backers, I haven't pre-paid for those bonus stories; I don't have to pay for them until they are released. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was a backer, or maybe not.

Peelee

2017-05-22, 11:23 AM

Now, I'm very excited for the eventual release of the Kickstarter PDFs, because I hope to be able to buy and read them. With that said, I'd much rather the author take his time and make the stories as good as they can be. I'll always prefer an excellent comic later than a mediocre comic soon. But, unlike the KS backers, I haven't pre-paid for those bonus stories; I don't have to pay for them until they are released. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was a backer, or maybe not.

Backer. Feel the same way.

Kish

2017-05-22, 11:24 AM

As a backer, I want Dim Sun eventually, but would be fine with "eventually" being "a year after Book 7 comes out." I don't really care about the CPPD story. I don't even care enough about the other rewards to look and see whether I'm getting anything else. That's one, pretty low-end, backer's opinion.

Bedinsis

2017-05-22, 11:48 AM

Onyavar

2017-05-22, 12:43 PM

Well... With the gross income made, would it be that hard to hire some digital art student part time to get some of the drawing done? [...] He could probably have gotten all of the promised work done years ago by [...]

The Giant told us years ago that the gross income went into printing the books (and a few other things, like paying kickstarter, amazon, taxes...). Unsold books are dead assets. I'm pretty sure that most of them are sold, as the Giant has now gone publishing e-books. So, the kickstarter money at least is gone.

But hire a digital art student? I find it preposterous.
- There are comic writers who pay artists to do the drawing and coloring entirely. The Giant is an artist in his own rights, why pay for an additional one?
- Also, coloring OotS doesn't need an assistant. There are practically no glows, flares, shines, gradients, shades...
- The Giant constantly is improving on his style while keeping it distinctly OotS - a new artist wouldn't meet the current standards easily.
- The Giant probably also doesn't need a gag writer.
- Composing the scenes and planning the panels? Unless you have a mind-reading assistant, an artist needs to do that himself. Not some college kid.
- Placing the stick figures is quickly done yourself.
- Getting the facial expressions just right? Needs care and practice.
- Let someone else finish the details? Again, nope. The readership is merciless and the crisp-clear art style is unforgiving. Too short arms, wrong placed eyes, too large mouths, forgotten battle damage: With standardized stick figures, it's all plain to see.
- Doing the cleanup? Okay, after having everything done on your own page: Why would you let a stranger into your carefully layered vector art?
- Proofreading and independent checks if it looks good: That's up to volunteering friends and family, I guess.

Yes, I have tried my hand at making a five-page comic in OotStyle - on the book-1 level. It's difficult when you start from scratch. Once you're organized, it's pretty easy to do. Handing over any part of the process requires lots of explaining what you want others to do. It starts with tools and libraries and goes on about the desired style.
Sure, in a full time 40-hours-a-week job, one hypothetical apprentice can crank out 5 or even 10 pages per week.

That doesn't mean that there will be (good) story writing or even funny gags. Or perspective. Or more than monochromatic backgrounds. It means just that: no quality, just quantity.

But even if all that wouldn't be so: the Giant would have to coordinate with his apprentice, need to teach him, need to manage him. Where's the time for that? And where's the money to PAY that student assistant? Other comic artists pay more or less slave wages (because they also can't really afford it), but the Giant doesn't strike me as the type. He'd think further than "outsourcing = take unfair advantage of some fool". I may be idealizing him, but from all the posts I've read, it's probably close to the truth: He's too good for that.

...the pace of things...
Um, better don't go there.

Aedilred

2017-05-22, 01:33 PM

As a backer, I will admit that I'm a bit disappointed with the rate that the content is produced.

As a human being, I just don't care that much any more, and since I didn't pledge that much I can safely say that I'm more than satisfied with what I have gotten at this point. Besides, kickstarters that overpromise and underdeliver is hardly a new thing at this point. Hence why don't care that much. Had I gotten the image that the Giant is deliberately trying to scam us I might have felt differently but that is not the image I have gotten.
I feel much the same way. Back when the Kickstarter ended, had a future version of myself travelled back in time and told me it would take x amount of time to deliver all the promised content (where x is currently unknown but is at least as much time as has already passed) I would have been taken aback.

But the way that life works, it's no longer really a consideration. I don't sit up wondering when the next Kickstarter content will be delivered: it only really comes to mind when new content is delivered or Rich sends out an email update. I imagine this is the same for the vast majority of backers at this point, which might also explain why the aggressive entitled sorts as discussed earlier in the thread only appear, somewhat couterintuitively, when content is actually delivered.

It's been so long now that not only has the money I paid long since faded into insignificance, but I can't even remember how much I did pay (I think I was one of the $67 backers, looking at the list of goals now). I should also note that, like all but a handful of backers*, I received everything apart from stretch goal stuff a long time ago - I can't remember whether within the original delivery schedule or not, but if not, not far off, and since that offered reasonable value for money over buying those items separately, the stuff I'm still waiting for (and have received over the last couple of years) is just freebies anyway, so I don't feel I have a lot of room for annoyance.

It's pretty clear that, like many Kickstarterers, Rich bit off more than he could chew, and the phenomenal success of the fundraising probably caused as many problems as it resolved. It's worth remembering too that when he did it Kickstarter was less of an institution than it now is, and there was less "common knowledge" about the pitfalls of pursuing it for content creators. With that in mind it is impressive that he has nevertheless delivered the vast majority of what he said he would and is determined to deliver the rest. It may have taken a lot longer than anyone - including him - expected or hoped, but there is a reasonable expectation that it will all get done, which I think is fairly remarkable for a Kickstarter in this sort of position.

*By my reckoning, fewer than 150 people - that's under 1% of backers - are still waiting for non-stretch goal stuff that they paid for.

Gwynfrid

2017-05-22, 04:10 PM

I feel much the same way. Back when the Kickstarter ended, had a future version of myself travelled back in time and told me it would take x amount of time to deliver all the promised content (where x is currently unknown but is at least as much time as has already passed) I would have been taken aback.

But the way that life works, it's no longer really a consideration. I don't sit up wondering when the next Kickstarter content will be delivered: it only really comes to mind when new content is delivered or Rich sends out an email update. I imagine this is the same for the vast majority of backers at this point, which might also explain why the aggressive entitled sorts as discussed earlier in the thread only appear, somewhat couterintuitively, when content is actually delivered.

Pretty much what I think, too.

It's pretty clear that, like many Kickstarterers, Rich bit off more than he could chew, and the phenomenal success of the fundraising probably caused as many problems as it resolved. It's worth remembering too that when he did it Kickstarter was less of an institution than it now is, and there was less "common knowledge" about the pitfalls of pursuing it for content creators. With that in mind it is impressive that he has nevertheless delivered the vast majority of what he said he would and is determined to deliver the rest. It may have taken a lot longer than anyone - including him - expected or hoped, but there is a reasonable expectation that it will all get done, which I think is fairly remarkable for a Kickstarter in this sort of position.

*By my reckoning, fewer than 150 people - that's under 1% of backers - are still waiting for non-stretch goal stuff that they paid for.

I'm one of those people, and I fully agree.

I also think that speculating on the time it will take Rich to finish, or trying to think up more or less realistic ways to lighten his workload, isn't helpful. In fact I hope he isn't reading this thread, as it could even be a little depressing.

Sylian

2017-05-23, 07:17 AM

*By my reckoning, fewer than 150 people - that's under 1% of backers - are still waiting for non-stretch goal stuff that they paid for.Which is pretty bad. I imagine if I ordered something I wouldn't want to wait for over 5 years to get it. The patience packages had an estimated delivery on December 2012, not 2017. Still, what is done is done. I got my content in 2012 (aside from the PDFs, obviously) so I can't personally complain.

Aedilred

2017-05-23, 07:53 AM

Which is pretty bad. I imagine if I ordered something I wouldn't want to wait for over 5 years to get it. The patience packages had an estimated delivery on December 2012, not 2017. Still, what is done is done. I got my content in 2012 (aside from the PDFs, obviously) so I can't personally complain.

It's not exactly great, but it's better than pulling the plug on those rewards, failing to deliver the rest of what was promised, or disappearing with the money, which is not exactly uncommon on creative project Kickstarters. The OotS one was also remarkably successful (was it the #2 Kickstarter ever by funds raised when it closed?) and you don't have to search hard to find essays on why unexpectedly successful crowdfunding campaigns are a curse as much as a blessing. With the amount of money that had to be raised and the corresponding quantity of goods that needed to be delivered, and considering that the onus for producing all this stuff is still on Rich, the delivery dates on the Kickstarter should have looked pretty optimistic by the time it closed.

But those were younger and more innocent days and I'm sure OotS is used as a cautionary example for creators in a similar position today when they're considering Kickstarter. It was also before the thumb injury, which was in September 2012 and threw a spanner in the works of all his creative output for months, as well as dramatically slowing his output thereafter.

It's worth noting that for everyone except those 1% of backers or so (and excluding the stretch goal content), everything was delivered pretty much on schedule, which is in itself not unremarkable for a Kickstarter that exceeds expectations to that extent.

(Also with regard to the "if I ordered this and it took this long to arrive" point, the usual disclaimer about Kickstarter being an investment/funding vehicle, not a shop).

ironkid

2017-05-23, 09:45 AM

I personally don't think that us kickstarter pledges are actually "inverstors". We don't get a cut of the money, we only get the goodies promised, so we ARE buyers.

I wouldn't mind for the whole extras being available to everyone - if anything, it would be cooler to have more people to talk about them IRL. Why, yesterday I read the O-Chul story, and it would be cool to be able to talk about it with friends that "just" read the free comic.

However, I also know that backers ARE clients, and the fact that I'm OK with all that doesn't mean they are. I for one went of this just to read the stories - and by now, the Dim Sun story will feel stale (when if was promised, everybody was psyched out about Dark Sun coming out for fourth edition. Bringing it now would feel off topic and weird, and won't be clear which rules are being mocked)

So yeah, I don't think making them open content would be the way to go. Besides, the giant should be able to see the fruit of his labors, so doing something similar to what he did to the Belkar book would seem appropiate (If it was me, I'd place them for a minimum of one dollar per ten pages, or something like that. I mean, he invested 97 pages in O-Chul's story!!! That's close to 10% of the pages he invested on the WHOLE OOTS!!! (actually sliiiighty more than 9%, but you get my point))

The clients deserve their exclusive content (If they're somehow happy that few people reads it, that's their business) and the Giant deserves to be paid for his effort, not only drawing and plotting the comic but dealing with the clients and all administrative issues.

factotum

2017-05-23, 09:51 AM

I personally don't think that us kickstarter pledges are actually "inverstors". We don't get a cut of the money, we only get the goodies promised, so we ARE buyers.

That's the whole point, though--you're investing your money in the hope of getting goods in return. Those goods often do not exist at the time you make your pledge, and by the time they get to you may be very different than what you expected to receive; plus Kickstarter is littered with projects that took the money and then either disappeared or failed to deliver on their promises. That's why you have to treat it as an investment rather than a purchase, because you're not guaranteed to get the goods you paid for.

When you buy something from a shop (digital or bricks and mortar) there are certain protections you are granted by law--the goods generally have to be in good condition, do the job they're advertised to do, and not have any unintended side-effects. This does not apply to Kickstarter, needless to say.

King of Nowhere

2017-05-23, 09:51 AM

Well... With the gross income made, would it be that hard to hire some digital art student part time to get some of the drawing done? It's not an overly complicated art style... Could probably run a competition at local schools with a prize, take in the one that most closely resembles his own art, pay him a training period to further better imitate, and then pay him to do the desired art. He could probably have gotten all of the promised work done years ago by spending less of 5% of his gross kickstarting funds.

This would be a scam. A big, BIG scam. Those backers paid for something done by rich burlew, not for something done by an underpaid college student in a similar style.
furthermore, onyavar made other practical considerations as for why it was a terrible idea.
Hiring someone to deal with paperwork and book packaging, that may have been an idea, but I get the impression that rich doesn't see much money; he consistently stated how he is bad at math, and his expence estimations were off - from taxes he didn't knew about, to mailing fees increasing over the years. Speaking of mailing, I ordered the board game in europe, and I paid no extra money for it; for a package that size, transoceanic shipping is easily worth more than the package, so if too many of rich's backers were from europe, his kickstarter would be a loss no matter what.

Had I gotten the image that the Giant is deliberately trying to scam us I might have felt differently but that is not the image I have gotten.

A lot of that. either rich is a really good liar, constructing elaborate scams to embezzle our money, or his story check and he really means what he says. And most real scams are actually pretty ridiculous when you spend the time to piece the facts together, something this forum has done over and over. So, if rich is not a scammer and is really trying to do his best, I'm willing to cut him extra slack. a lot of extra slack.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-05-23, 10:07 AM

I personally don't think that us kickstarter pledges are actually "inverstors". We don't get a cut of the money, we only get the goodies promised, so we ARE buyers.

No, just an investor in the traditional sense rather than the corporatist sense. Kickstarter's no different than a batch of people clubbing together to help fund a ship to sail to Africa for a cargo of coffee. Maybe the ship gets wrecked, maybe there's pirates, maybe the captain decides to skive off and start slave trading instead. Or maybe things go to plan, the ship makes port and you get your own personal barrel of coffee beans while the ship owners sells the rest.

As towards page count math, I'd have to check Porthos' table again but I'm pretty sure Rich is about 2000 pages all told.

edit: 1945.5, if you include the Gygax strips and pdfs

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-23, 10:09 AM

I personally don't think that us kickstarter pledges are actually "inverstors". We don't get a cut of the money, we only get the goodies promised, so we ARE buyers.

You personally can consider KS a purchase, but that doesn't make it so. It is an investment, with all the baggage that concept carries: the chance of the ROI being positive, plus the chance of the ROI being negative. That's the risk you take when you back a project on Kickstarter, just like the chance you take when you buy stock on a company*. Yes, maybe you'll be able to obtain benefits beyond the money you put in, but at the same time, maybe you'll be left holding a worthless piece of paper when the company goes bust, and it does not good to complain when the latter happens (although, inevitably, many do - see the facebook IPO).

Grey Wolf

*Notice that in most modern stock markets, you will never get "a cut of the money" either. Many companies don't ever do profit sharing anymore: participation in the stock market is a mirage game where money is made by convincing the buyer that the stock is worth more than what the seller paid for it.

warmachine

2017-05-23, 11:44 AM

My answer is no as the remaining work can still be reasonably done. Abandoning a project where money changed hands and that's still financially viable would be fraud.

Instead, we get a project that's chronically late. Not that I'm overly concerned. I regarded the Kickstarter as e-begging with goodies thrown in. A strange e-begging where the recipient got far more than he expected, promised too many more goodies and wrecked his own goodie delivery schedule. He still did the important part, publishing his books. He took my money, delivered only some of the goodies on time, delivered the O'Chul PDF chronically late but continued posting a free web comic and maintaining my favourite RPG forum in the meantime.

If I knew this would happen at the time, I'd have paid anyway.

Vinyadan

2017-05-23, 12:14 PM

When you buy something from a shop (digital or bricks and mortar) there are certain protections you are granted by law--the goods generally have to be in good condition, do the job they're advertised to do, and not have any unintended side-effects. This does not apply to Kickstarter, needless to say.

[citation needed] (not in a snarky way, but if someone tells me "I will give you this if the following conditions are met" and the conditions are met, he's supposed to give me that stuff or return the money, and I think that the law will get it out of him).

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-23, 12:48 PM

[citation needed] (not in a snarky way, but if someone tells me "I will give you this if the following conditions are met" and the conditions are met, he's supposed to give me that stuff or return the money, and I think that the law will get it out of him).

From the kickstarter terms & conditions (https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use):

The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project. We ask creators to think carefully, set a date they feel confident they can work toward, and communicate with backers about any changes.
[...]
Kickstarter doesn’t offer refunds. Responsibility for finishing a project lies entirely with the project creator. Kickstarter doesn’t hold funds on creators’ behalf, cannot guarantee creators’ work, and does not offer refunds.

GW

pendell

2017-05-23, 12:52 PM

From the kickstarter terms & conditions (https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use):

The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project. We ask creators to think carefully, set a date they feel confident they can work toward, and communicate with backers about any changes.
[...]
Kickstarter doesn’t offer refunds. Responsibility for finishing a project lies entirely with the project creator. Kickstarter doesn’t hold funds on creators’ behalf, cannot guarantee creators’ work, and does not offer refunds.

GW

Be that as it may you could probably take someone to small claims court and have a case that this is a legal contract, and the defendant is in default if they aren't even attempting to make the delivery. Being late is one thing; simply giving up on the deliverable altogether is something else.

And if you were to sue Rich Burlew and win, why, you could probably extract just enough to purchase a Pumpkin Latte at Starbucks. And of course you'd delay the comic even worse, on account of fighting a legal battle would sap his energy by quite a lot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-23, 12:59 PM

Be that as it may you could probably take someone to small claims court and have a case that this is a legal contract, and the defendant is in default if they aren't even attempting to make the delivery. Being late is one thing; simply giving up on the deliverable altogether is something else.

And if you were to sue Rich Burlew and win, why, you could probably extract just enough to purchase a Pumpkin Latte at Starbucks. And of course you'd delay the comic even worse, on account of fighting a legal battle would sap his energy by quite a lot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

This is edging way too close to professional advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), so I'm not going to address it. The request was to see the difference between retail purchase and kickstarter participation, not what legal recourse a wronged party might have.

GW

littlebum2002

2017-05-23, 01:14 PM

Being late is one thing; simply giving up on the deliverable altogether is something else.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't believe a timeline was given on the Kickstarter for any of the deliverables, so it's impossible for Rich to be late. As long as they are created before the heat death of the Universe, he has fulfilled his obligations as promised.

DnD Coliseum

2017-05-23, 01:23 PM

can we back this kickstarter still?

Jasdoif

2017-05-23, 01:30 PM

can we back this kickstarter still?No; you're about five years and three months late for that.

SaintRidley

2017-05-23, 02:04 PM

I believe the folks who haven't received stuff are all patience package pledges. Pledges with the explicit caveat that they would receive their things once all other kickstarter promises were fulfilled. Seems like there's not much room for justified complaint with those.

NerdyKris

2017-05-23, 02:47 PM

No, there are individual and D&D party crayon drawings and one of the commissioned stories, on top of three more promised PDFs.

There's a work meter in the newsletters that shows what's still being worked on. Here's a direct link (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/1886231).

factotum

2017-05-23, 03:46 PM

but at the same time, maybe you'll be left holding a worthless piece of paper when the company goes bust, and it does not good to complain when the latter happens (although, inevitably, many do - see the facebook IPO).

Um, that seems like a really bad example, since (a) Facebook hasn't gone bust and (b) their shares are currently worth nearly four times as much as they were sold at the IPO? Yes, the shares plummeted in value for a few months after the IPO, but they've more than recovered now.

LadyEowyn

2017-05-23, 04:23 PM

Psyren

2017-05-23, 04:33 PM

*Notice that in most modern stock markets, you will never get "a cut of the money" either. Many companies don't ever do profit sharing anymore: participation in the stock market is a mirage game where money is made by convincing the buyer that the stock is worth more than what the seller paid for it.

I agree overall but to be accurate - that's how the value of anything that isn't actually currency is determined; what a buyer would be willing to pay for it.

Also, regarding getting a cut... modern stock markets do have dividends.

NerdyKris

2017-05-23, 04:33 PM

The kickstarter was to produce the physical books. You can't say "Well, he should have just not used the money for what it was intended for!".

That's ridiculous. He used the money for exactly what it was intended to do. which was getting the books back in print. It was to grow his business, not to just give him money to live off of.

Also, international postal rates went way up before everything was shipped. That contributed to draining the funds a lot faster than expected.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-05-23, 05:00 PM

Um, that seems like a really bad example, since (a) Facebook hasn't gone bust and (b) their shares are currently worth nearly four times as much as they were sold at the IPO? Yes, the shares plummeted in value for a few months after the IPO, but they've more than recovered now.
I think it is the perfect example, actually: people with no patience complaining they didn't get an immediate ROI, pretty much like people in Rich's KS complaining that they have not yet received all the free stuff they were promised for their investment. By "bust" I don't mean "out of business", just "significantly less valuable than promised" (i.e the IPO was a bust, although I admit I could've explained my example better).

Fiscally, the strategy of the Kickstarter didn't make much sense to me. The proceeds were over $1 million! Assuming people mostly donated to support Rich and get the goodies, he could have lived comfortably off that for the rest of his life with no work except writing the comic and the goodies, and sold the books as PDFs rather than hardcopy. (Since shipping costs more than the books, those of us who aren't from the US won't buy hardcopies anyway.)

$1 million does not give Rich 30 years of living comfortably in the US (hint: heathcare costs for someone with a chronic condition). Investing $1 million on printing books that can then be sold at a profit as Rich is doing ALSO doesn't guarantee a comfortable life, but it gets him closer.

I agree overall but to be accurate - that's how the value of anything that isn't actually currency is determined; what a buyer would be willing to pay for it.
No, that's how the price of something is determined. The very fact that it conflates value with price is part if the problem of a stock market. A stock has a value of 0, as long as it doesn't pay dividends - and many stocks never pay dividends - and many others pay so little you'll never make back what you paid for them. The only difference between collecting beanie babies and collecting Apple stock is that the bubble of one has popped and the other has not. Or, in a less cynical way, a stock with no dividends is a zero-sum game with a value of 0.

Also, regarding getting a cut... modern stock markets do have dividends.

No. They can have dividends, but many companies don't bother - and indeed, it is considered "bad" that a company gives dividends instead of "reinvesting profits into future growth" - and indication that a company is becoming a cash cow... which tends to drive investors away, therefore shattering the illusion and popping the bubble.

Grey Wolf

Jasdoif

2017-05-23, 05:14 PM

Perhaps it's time for even more quotes! (I may be biased)

It's complicated. Yes, the total cost of the printing bills, swag bills, postage, Kickstarter fees, and taxes have exceeded the $1.25M raised. Taxes ended up coming in much higher than expected, and in particular a drastic hike in international postage rates earlier this year hit me hard on the autographed packages that had to wait until I could hold a marker again. But, that doesn't mean that I'm losing money on the whole project.

See, the project was not ever constructed to make a profit. It was constructed to more-or-less break even, but in such a way that I had thousands of extra books printed when all the Kickstarter rewards were sent out. Those extra books would then be sold through the normal channels—Ookoodook and your local gaming store—and those sales would be where I made the actual money that I would pay my rent and such with.

As of right now, the cost of printing and fulfilling the goods has topped the amount of money sent to me via Kickstarter, but it has not topped the amount of money directly sent plus the amount I have earned from regular sales since August of last year, when books were once again available in sales channels. So, strictly speaking, the project turned a profit overall. It's just that there's no Kickstarter money sitting in a bank account anymore; I'm only earning the normal trickle of book sales every month. Of course, without Kickstarter, I would have no books left to sell right now, and I would have no trickle of book sales.

OK, I know I opened this door, so rather than my usual grumpy, "I don't want suggestions," I am going to shoot them down one at a time:

I already mentioned that an art assistant would not work. Almost all of the tasks that have been mentioned that could be delegated to such a position simply don't exist with the way that I make the art. I mean, backgrounds? Have you read the strip? Half the time, I draw one big colored rectangle to cover the whole strip and call it done. It would literally take me more time to explain what color I wanted the rectangle to an art assistant than it would for me to draw it myself.
I know people don't realize this because they think the art is incredibly crude, but I am actually fairly nitpicky about how the comic looks. I spend a lot of time tweaking it for things like unintended tangents. It is actually faster for me to draw it with a minimum of such issues than to have to correct someone else's drawing.
Stuff like scheduling, talking with printers, and other non-creative business tasks are not really a problem. Because I can only draw for so much time each day, I actually have more time than ever before to handle those things. Hiring a person to help me with that stuff would be paying another person to do the things that I can already do.
I've already explained about the Kickstarter expenses, too. When I ran the Kickstarter, I made an estimate of how much things would cost to fulfill. That estimate was close, but not perfect. Some things went up in price, and there were some things that I didn't account for. And even if it had been perfect, it did not include any portion for hiring an assistant, so there would be no money left for that anyway. Given that I have no reason to think that an assistant would make much difference, I'm not planning on spending my money on one.
My business is not a democracy. If you took a vote, I am sure the idea of, "I would pay for faster updates," would get like 90% approval from the readers. That doesn't change any of the problems involved, however.

It's not the products that are keeping me from working on the strip, it's the work that other people have already paid for. And whatever vague unspoken commitment I might have to the readers of the free comic, I have a concrete binding commitment to the Kickstarter backers. I already took their money, and it's long gone. I need to prioritize the work I owe them above everything else. So if I was going to change something about how I manage my time, it wouldn't be to work on the free comic. If I could, I would put the free comic on hiatus for 6 months to finish the Kickstarter work. I can't, not without both infuriating my entire readership and tanking my income...which, again, doesn't exist unless I also put out products during that time. Which slows down the rate of the Kickstarter work even more.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying that I am essentially in a Catch-22, have been for 5 years, and am muddling through it as best I can, one page at a time. Sorry if that's not good enough, but it's the best I'm capable of. You are free to take it or leave it, but it's probably not changing.

And no. I'm not going to quit. Even if it takes me another 5 years to dig out. This post brought to you by the letter Q: "Sure beats John de Lancie messing with your timeline".

Cizak

2017-05-23, 05:55 PM

(Since shipping costs more than the books, those of us who aren't from the US won't buy hardcopies anyway.)

Speak for yourself.

Rynael

2017-05-23, 06:13 PM

Perhaps it's time for even more quotes! (I may be biased)

Nah, I'm surprised you didn't post that second quote the first time around. Honestly, if he had dropped by and just copied and pasted that exact quote here, I would not have noticed any discrepancies to indicate that it was a pre-written answer to questions raised in a thread almost exactly four years ago, as opposed to something written just now as an answer to this thread.

Aedilred

2017-05-23, 06:27 PM

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't believe a timeline was given on the Kickstarter for any of the deliverables, so it's impossible for Rich to be late. As long as they are created before the heat death of the Universe, he has fulfilled his obligations as promised.

I believe the folks who haven't received stuff are all patience package pledges. Pledges with the explicit caveat that they would receive their things once all other kickstarter promises were fulfilled. Seems like there's not much room for justified complaint with those.
Every tier on the Kickstarter had an estimated delivery date, all of which were, at the latest, December 2012. The patience rewards were scheduled for roughly six months after the completion of other rewards, most of which were estimated to be delivered by June.

So I think the Patience-tier backers have much the same grounds for complaint as anyone else. Since they have to wait for everything else to be delivered first, and the delivery of "everything else" has missed its deadline by about 1500%, they're still suffering more than they might reasonably have expected.

There was some schedule slip with the books and other physical items - the stuff that the Kickstarter was actually designed to finance - largely due it seems to the unexpected success and consequent difficulties with producing the requisite volume, but the delay was no more than about a month. It is really just the new creative content that's taken/taking years to deliver.

Fiscally, the strategy of the Kickstarter didn't make much sense to me. The proceeds were over $1 million! Assuming people mostly donated to support Rich and get the goodies, he could have lived comfortably off that for the rest of his life with no work except writing the comic and the goodies, and sold the books as PDFs rather than hardcopy. (Since shipping costs more than the books, those of us who aren't from the US won't buy hardcopies anyway.)

Getting over $1 million and ending up without a net profit of at least that much seems like a poor business model, especially when it loads you down with an unmanageable pile of work in the bargain.
Why on earth would you think the majority of that was profit? The Kickstarter - like most of its ilk - was explicitly to provide the capital necessary to issue another print run of the books. It wasn't a Rich Burlew goodwill donations project. Indeed, unlike many modern Kickstarters, the OotS one had no "donate for no reward" tier that I can see, so everyone who backed the project was expecting some return.

Kickstarter is an alternative to traditional means of raising capital investment (bank loans, venture capital, etc.) so that products and services can be launched (or relaunched). Money raised that way isn't directly equivalent to retail turnover and shouldn't be treated as such. Indeed, I would be willing to venture that the reason a lot of Kickstarters crash and burn is that that distinction isn't properly understood.

Also I am not from the US and bought hard copies. Postage (and more significantly, import tax) was a bit painful, if I remember rightly, but the effective discount for getting the books as an investment reward rather than at retail price still made it worthwhile.

Kish

2017-05-23, 06:38 PM

Fiscally, the strategy of the Kickstarter didn't make much sense to me. The proceeds were over $1 million! Assuming people mostly donated to support Rich and get the goodies, he could have lived comfortably off that for the rest of his life with no work except writing the comic and the goodies, and sold the books as PDFs rather than hardcopy. (Since shipping costs more than the books, those of us who aren't from the US won't buy hardcopies anyway.)

Getting over $1 million and ending up without a net profit of at least that much seems like a poor business model, especially when it loads you down with an unmanageable pile of work in the bargain.
He may yet end up with a net profit of over a million, but the Kickstarter was always to put OotS books in print with none of it going directly to Rich's pockets, so his final profit won't be determined until the books in question have sold. It is apparent (as this is his only job) that the profit from the books has been enough for him to live on thus far.

Psyren

2017-05-24, 02:37 AM

No, that's how the price of something is determined. The very fact that it conflates value with price is part if the problem of a stock market. A stock has a value of 0, as long as it doesn't pay dividends - and many stocks never pay dividends - and many others pay so little you'll never make back what you paid for them. The only difference between collecting beanie babies and collecting Apple stock is that the bubble of one has popped and the other has not. Or, in a less cynical way, a stock with no dividends is a zero-sum game with a value of 0.

It's all relative. If those "Beanie Babies" retain their price for the longer than your lifespan (or at least, the window from your own retirement to when your next of kin can use them as collateral to jump-start their own lives) then that is actually value, not merely price.

No. They can have dividends, but many companies don't bother - and indeed, it is considered "bad" that a company gives dividends instead of "reinvesting profits into future growth" - and indication that a company is becoming a cash cow... which tends to drive investors away, therefore shattering the illusion and popping the bubble.

Grey Wolf

Many don't, and many do. They are a thing that exist, your opinion of them aside.

factotum

2017-05-24, 03:55 AM

So I think the Patience-tier backers have much the same grounds for complaint as anyone else. Since they have to wait for everything else to be delivered first, and the delivery of "everything else" has missed its deadline by about 1500%, they're still suffering more than they might reasonably have expected.

Also I am not from the US and bought hard copies. Postage (and more significantly, import tax) was a bit painful, if I remember rightly, but the effective discount for getting the books as an investment reward rather than at retail price still made it worthwhile.

I was a Patience for a signed book backer, and I received mine already--so it's not like *all* Patience backers have had to wait for everything else.

Agreed on the second point. Live in the UK, have bought every single hard copy book Rich has released (SoD twice, since I got a signed one too!). I prefer having a nice solid object than a stream of bits and bytes.

warmachine

2017-05-24, 04:43 AM

Burlew created his own problems with the Kickstarter campaign but it'd be interesting to know what problems he thinks he avoided by avoiding banks or venture capitalists.

Ellye

2017-05-24, 05:36 AM

ThatNickGuy

2017-05-24, 06:05 AM

factotum

2017-05-24, 06:46 AM

The main comic would probably be finished by now if it wasn't for the kickstarter rewards.

I think it more likely that the comic would have stopped a long time ago without the Kickstarter, because the Giant would have run out of money and been forced to do something else to make ends meet.

King of Nowhere

2017-05-24, 08:50 AM

The main comic would probably be finished by now if it wasn't for the kickstarter rewards.

I believe the KS killed the comic, for me, as I lost pretty much all interest I once had in it due to how long it is taking.

I have to be honest, I also lost some interest for the main comic because of how long it takes between updates, but it was unavoidable. without kickstarter, rich would run out of money. and while the regular comic would certainly have advanced far more without the kickstarter, we got plenty of goodies that are still related to the main comic.

littlebum2002

2017-05-24, 11:28 AM

Fiscally, the strategy of the Kickstarter didn't make much sense to me. The proceeds were over $1 million! Assuming people mostly donated to support Rich and get the goodies, he could have lived comfortably off that for the rest of his life with no work except writing the comic and the goodies, and sold the books as PDFs rather than hardcopy. (Since shipping costs more than the books, those of us who aren't from the US won't buy hardcopies anyway.)

Getting over $1 million and ending up without a net profit of at least that much seems like a poor business model, especially when it loads you down with an unmanageable pile of work in the bargain.

You're right, taking people's money for a product then never giving them that product is an excellent way of making money.

Unfortunately, it's also extremely immoral and illegal. But, you know, who has time to worry about all the fiddely details?

(I mean, you do realize you are advocating Rich steal from his most ardent fanbase, right? You're saying he should have promised people books in the kickstarter then just never printed those books and kept the money. Can you please explain how this was a good idea in your head?)