Help me determine the ''power level'' of this combo

[Corran]

The combo (intended for a gish, so melee is not an issue)
Use twinned BB against two adjacent to you enemies (action). Use quickened command with a spell slot of appropriate level and command the enemy/ies struck by your BB plus at least one more to flee (bonus action). Use your reaction OA with BB (warcaster) against one enemy that you didnt strike during your turn (reaction, used during an enemy's turn).

Essentials
- Quickened metamagic
- Twinned metamagic
- Command
- Warcaster
- Booming Blade
- Sorcery points (at least 3)
- Spell slots (at least of 3rd level)

Cost
- Action
- Bonus action
- Reaction
- 3 sorcery points
- One spell slot of level 2-4 (depending)

Profit
- Turn denial for up to 3 enemies
- Damage
- Does NOT require concentration (felt I should mention it)

How to improve this
- Obviously the more levels you have, the harder BB strikes.
- Upcasting command to include 2 additional enemies (apart from the ones you hit with BB with your action) is probably a good use of resources (as is the case with all spells that when upcasted add additional targets), as it not only allows for more enemies to lose their turns, but also significantly increases your chances to utilize your reaction with BB against one fleeing enemy (more simply, you want to hit someone with your BB OA, and commanding 2 targets instead of 1, makes that a lot more likely)
- Perhaps the mobile feat can help, since this trick relies a lot on positioning (simplest case is to have 3-4 enemies adjacent to you, but you can pull it off with more relaxed conditions regarding positioning, as long as you dont mind being targeted by OA's too much, or if you have mobile).

Note
One thing to stay aware of. Enemies affected by command, with the ability to teleport, can flee you without provoking OA's. So no daage for them. They still lose their turn though.

It looks good on paper but I have several reservations. My questions are several...

Is it worth it? Or is it pure junk? How does it compare to other uses of your resources? Is it just better to use an AoE or a mass debuff instead? Or is it worth it to stick with this combo since it does a bit of both and since it does not require concentration? If my twinned BB hits only one enemy, is it worth continuing with the combo, or save the resources for when I do manage to hit 2 enemies with my action twinned BB (I am assuming it is)?

I will try to break down the profit, using some assumptions ofc. Then I will probably be in a better position to evaluate the profit per ''unit'' of resource expended, and it will hopefully be easier for me to compare it with other options. But first, the assumptions (please do correct me if you think my assumptions are off).

Assumptions
- Hit chance: 65%
- Save chance (against command): 50%
- No legendary resistances
- Character level 17+ (for maxed BB)
- 4 adjacent enemies
- STR/DEX mod of +5 (for damage purposes, as hit chance is fixed above)
- d8 weapon

Lets try to figure out the total damage average.
Plan: (action: twinned BB against enemy 1 & 2, bonus action: quickened command against enemy 1 (only if hit), 2 (only if hit) and enemies 3&4.)

Against enemy 1: 65%* (4d8+5) +65%*50%* (4d8) = 14.95 + 7.475 = 22.425
Against enemy 2: same as above, for another 22.425 damage.
Against enemy 3 or 4 (whoever gets hit by command): 75%*65%* (8d8+5) =48.75%*41 = 19.9875

Expected damage total: 64.8375
Expected turn denial: 2 enemies
Expected cost: 3 sorcery points and a spell slot of level 3-4 (2 + 0.65*1 + 0.65*1 = 3.3). Also, action, bonus action and reaction.

IS IT WORTH IT, when compared to other non-concentration uses of resources? Such as using AoE's or just quickening GFB's?). Should I compare it to other concentration options just because it utilizes resources other concentrration options would, or becuase it might take up actions used with concentration ongoing effects?


I would really appreciate some opinions on this, even if they are based just on your instict!
Thanks in advance.

TL;DR
Is spending 3sp and a 3rd-4th level spell slot, and also using all of my actions (and reaction) in one given turn, worth of 65 damage (spread between 3 enemies) and denying turn to 2 enemies, at no concentration cost, at levels 17+ (assuming no legendary resistances in play)?

[Malifice]

Quicken plus twin is what... 5 SP per round dude?

Presuming combats of 5 rounds, and 6 of them per day (30 rounds of combat per day) when exactly does this come online?

Also having to be in melee... and relying on a save... doesnt sound flash.

For the same number of SP (5) you could create a 3rd level slot and just fireball everything from the comfort of 'behind the fighter'.

[Foxhound438]

it's a lot of moving pieces and thus a lot of failure points, and it costs a lot to even try. Nice if you get it all off, but it's likely that you're only going to land 2/3 effects on a given turn, so basically full BB damage on average... You get to deny them their turn if they fail the command save, but a Paladin can get similar end results off of a blinding smite, and they have the tools to stick in melee anyways.

[Corran]

Quicken plus twin is what... 5 SP per round dude?
3 sorcery points. Quickening command is 2 sp, and twinned BB is 1 sp. But that is just a fraction of the overall cost (adding to the cost that you have to use all of your action, bonus action and reaction, and a spell slot of around 3rd-4th level). It is costly yes. And not something to be spammed. Which is also fair to assume since it requires some very specific conditions as far as positioning is concerned to be met. I am kust wondering if it is a good use of resources or not.


Presuming combats of 5 rounds, and 6 of them per day (30 rounds of combat per day) when exactly does this come online?
Depends on the build (for when it first comes online). But I would mostly consider it for high level play (because BB is more powerful then, and because not requiring concentration is a major plus imo at high levels, when you will have many good concentration options).


Also having to be in melee... and relying on a save... doesnt sound flash.
Was mostly thinking of this for some type of gish (I should have mentioned it, will edit it in the op). Something like a sorcadin, or a fighter/sorcerer (fs). So being in melee is not an issue. Will clarify this in the op though.


For the same number of SP (5) you could create a 3rd level slot and just fireball everything from the comfort of 'behind the fighter'.
Now, this is where the money is. I have a huge difficulty comparing it to other options, since it does both damage and debuffs. I am assuming that it is a better use of resources than burning slots to smite or quickening GFB's, but I am interested in finding out exactly where it stands on the general power curve of things.

I just need some good combinations of resources that take 1 round to use (and perhaps a reaction too), with a cost equivalent to 3sp and a 3rd (3.3 to be more precise, so it would be a 3rd or a 4th) level spell slot. Comparing to a single fireball would just not be fair, since we need to add something that uses the equivalent of 3sp to the fireball option too.

[Corran]

it's a lot of moving pieces and thus a lot of failure points, and it costs a lot to even try. Nice if you get it all off, but it's likely that you're only going to land 2/3 effects on a given turn, so basically full BB damage on average... You get to deny them their turn if they fail the command save, but a Paladin can get similar end results off of a blinding smite, and they have the tools to stick in melee anyways.
Summed it up at the end of the op (read TL;DR part), though my analysis might be flawed. I place a lot of value in that it does not require concentration. Also, thinking of doing this with a gish type of character, not a pure sorcerer (edited in the op to clarify).

Hmmmm, I think I will compare it with this: fireball 4 enemies, then quicken GFB, then use shield with reaction (assuming all 4 enemies try to hit you). Similar cost, similar benefits (damage and sort-of-turn-denial due to missed inc attacks from the AC boost from shield). Will try to run the numbers.

[Corran]

Ok, lets compare it with this:
Fireball + quickened GFB + shield (reaction).
The cost is very similar.
Action, bonus action and reaction all used (as before), 2 sp used (opposed to 3sp used with the previous combo), and one 3rd level spell slot and one 1st level spell slot used (compared to a 3rd-4th level spell slot that was used with the previous combo).

The benefit (assuming 50% save chance and 65% hit chance) is:
109.675 damage spread over 4 targets with emphasis on 2 of them (compared to ~65 damage spread over 3 targets from before) and turn denial for 1 enemy (compared to turn denying 2 enemies with the previous combo). I trlanslated the benefit from shield to turn denying enemies (1 enemy to be precise), due to the reduced chance to hit me (assuming all enemies target me).

Hmmm, so, the fireball combo seems clearly the winner here, as the +45 damage seem more than enough to compensate for turn denying 1 extra enemy. I guess that was to be expected since fireball is awesome.

I wonder if the balance changes significantly if I make the comparison against 3 enemies.
Or how does the combo mentioned in the op measures against party friendly options.
Anyway, I more inclined to hear more opinions from the community than crunching the numbers by myself... (and doing lots of mistakes while at it)

Edit: Ofc, the combo in the op just gets better if you have allies and or minions that can deal some OA's on the fleeing enemies.

ps: Triple-posting, I am challenging my luck...:smallfrown:

[Gtdead]

As a solo character it's fine. As a party member it's pointless.

Denying mooks their turn isn't that useful in a party situation. You'll do better in assisting your possible dedicated glass cannon with a fireball or smite the big bad. Mooks can't really survive that much firepower anyway.

[Zman]

It's incredibly good, but requires limited resources and is not breaking anything.

IMO Twinned Booming Blade with haste is better. Move in, booming Blade two enemies, withdraw away. Can quicken another Booming Blade if needed too. Main reason is it uses so much feeer resources.

[Corran]

As a solo character it's fine. As a party member it's pointless.

Denying mooks their turn isn't that useful in a party situation. You'll do better in assisting your possible dedicated glass cannon with a fireball or smite the big bad. Mooks can't really survive that much firepower anyway.
Hmm, I was thinking that this plays well when you have other party members and/or minions around, rather than when playing solo. As more OA's from your allies boost the ''power'' (for lack of a better word) you get out of this use of resources.

But yes, when against hordes or a single big bad (with or without legendary resistance), or a big bad with legendary resistance and some minions around, then yes, against such circumstances you have probably better things to do with your resources (assuming you have the proper tools built in your character build).



It's incredibly good, but requires limited resources and is not breaking anything.

IMO Twinned Booming Blade with haste is better. Move in, booming Blade two enemies, withdraw away. Can quicken another Booming Blade if needed too. Main reason is it uses so much feeer resources.
Well, yes, booming blade and hit&run is awesome, and I am a huge fan of it. I think this and the combo I mentioned work best under exactly opposite circumstances though, so it's hard to compare them, as the one shines under circumstances that do not advocate for the other.
Meaning that if you have several allies and/or minions in melee, then hit&run is difficult to accomplish and the combo in the op works better (from triggering your allies' OA's), but when you have enemies around with no allies of yours adjacent to them, then BB and hit&run is amazing and few things compare to it (from a profit vs cost point of view).


Thanks for the feedback everyone!:smallsmile:
(if there is more, keep it coming)

[Gtdead]

Hmm, I was thinking that this plays well when you have other party members and/or minions around, rather than when playing solo. As more OA's from your allies boost the ''power'' (for lack of a better word) you get out of this use of resources.

But yes, when against hordes or a single big bad (with or without legendary resistance), or a big bad with legendary resistance and some minions around, then yes, against such circumstances you have probably better things to do with your resources (assuming you have the proper tools built in your character build).

Well, the thing with OA is that you are generally better suited to deal them than the rest of your party most of the time since you build for melee damage. Unless the rest of the members are very melee heavy, an OA from the wizard or the druid is too little and it can actually backfire because it can screw your positioning with some unlucky rolls. It has happened more times that I care to admit ^^.

It's more effective to to use a persistent ground aoe effect like spike growth or spirit guardians and command the enemy inside than fish for OAs with it. Which greatly diminishes your need to spend so many resources in booming blade shenanigans in the first place and it frees your actions so you can focus on something more important when you go Nova.

[Corran]

Well, the thing with OA is that you are generally better suited to deal them than the rest of your party most of the time since you build for melee damage. Unless the rest of the members are very melee heavy, an OA from the wizard or the druid is too little and it can actually backfire because it can screw your positioning with some unlucky rolls. It has happened more times that I care to admit ^^.
Ok, that's a good point. Thinking of a rogue being put in a position to take advantage of it, and if it doesn't work then the rogue is in serious trouble.


It's more effective to to use a persistent ground aoe effect like spike growth or spirit guardians and command the enemy inside than fish for OAs with it. Which greatly diminishes your need to spend so many resources in booming blade shenanigans in the first place and it frees your actions so you can focus on something more important when you go Nova.
Agreed. Though such combos typically take up your concentration (not to say that using your concentration in such a way is not worth it), and I was thinking of utilizing it when your concentration is taken up by something else (generally I was looking for goodthings to do with the spell slots and sp of a sorcerer gish when the conentration slot is occupied, at least that's how I came up with it; that's why I am now wonndering if it is something worth spending resources for, but the more I look into it the more I realize that it depends on too many things -like group comp, and concentration in play- to make an objective judgement about it without fixing the parameters of its use very tightly).

[Citan]

As a solo character it's fine. As a party member it's pointless.

Denying mooks their turn isn't that useful in a party situation. You'll do better in assisting your possible dedicated glass cannon with a fireball or smite the big bad. Mooks can't really survive that much firepower anyway.
It's very funny that I would rather say the exact opposite. XD
If you are solo, either you are the one in control and then you should focus on dispatching enemies one by one anyways (so Quickening something + Booming Blade to kill as fast as possible).

If you are in a group, then "denying one opponent's turn" actually happen to be often a viable or plain good tactic. Preventing a creature to move away so that your Paladin pal can reach it during his turn and smite it to the ground, or depriving another of his reaction to allow your endangered pal to move to safety for example.

@Corran: let's be fair: it's a great tactic, but for a very tiny amount of niche situations, which can be summarized as "I want to deal a good amount of damage myself AND trigger opportunity attacks from me and nearby pals".
Is it worth using in those cases? Certainly.
Is it worth building your whole character around it? Certainly not.

The good thing is, any Sorcerer / Paladin combo will usually keep Command prepared (because so useful in many situations), generally learn Booming Blade (because weapon cantrip synergizing with Paladin "martiality") and more often than not taking the Quickened Metamagic (because people love nova smiting).

So, basically, you just pointed out one of the many nice combos a Pal/Sorc can unleash when it is deemed useful without "special thinking" about building. :)

[SharkForce]

i would argue that fleeing could very easily allow "disengage" as an action (and might even compel it), which means i wouldn't expect an opportunity attack with this either.

[Citan]

i would argue that fleeing could very easily allow "disengage" as an action (and might even compel it), which means i wouldn't expect an opportunity attack with this either.
Sure, you could argue, but that's probably not RAI, possibly not even RAW (although it's only implicit).

Command with "Flee" says: "the target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means."
Which very heavily hints at using the Action, not on Disengage but on Dash. :)

A case could be made though for the most intelligent creatures, if DM was following a reasoning along the lines of "I know if I just flee I will have to sustain an OA which takes time, so the 'fastest' would be disengaging first", but I think this is a very convoluted argument. XD

[Corran]

@Corran: let's be fair: it's a great tactic, but for a very tiny amount of niche situations, which can be summarized as "I want to deal a good amount of damage myself AND trigger opportunity attacks from me and nearby pals".
Is it worth using in those cases? Certainly.
Is it worth building your whole character around it? Certainly not.

The good thing is, any Sorcerer / Paladin combo will usually keep Command prepared (because so useful in many situations), generally learn Booming Blade (because weapon cantrip synergizing with Paladin "martiality") and more often than not taking the Quickened Metamagic (because people love nova smiting).

So, basically, you just pointed out one of the many nice combos a Pal/Sorc can unleash when it is deemed useful without "special thinking" about building. :)
Yeah, I am starting to get to the same conclusion. That it is niche and highly dependant on the group composition. Niche in that, against a BBEG you want to focus on the main threat and smite, against mooks you can get by more cheaply and save resources for the harder fights during the day. Maybe when up against a small group of equally powerful opponents it could be useful, but then again it would compete with other strong options, such as careful hypnotic pattern or similar stuff. Mmmm, perhaps good for builds that dont plan for careful.... dunno, I kind of knew it wasn't as good as I first thought, but it's ''proving'' to be more situational than I expected. I'll do some more digging when I feel like it and try to compare head to head with other combos a sorcadin (or a similar gish) gets, to get a better understanding of it.


i would argue that fleeing could very easily allow "disengage" as an action (and might even compel it), which means i wouldn't expect an opportunity attack with this either.
Ok, I guess it can be interpreted that way, but I'll just go ahead and pretend I never saw this...:smallsmile:

[Lolzyking]

A long death monk with its fear aura, multiclassed with arcana cleric to the point of getting potent spell casting might be a more reliable gish outside of nova, also being able to force opportunity attacks without a spell slot is nice, Also flurry of blows wording is after a weapon attack , not the attack action, so you can kungfu after booming blade.