Looking for advice on my next ASI/feat

[Finback]

So, I'm playing a Vengeance paladin variant human in a Curse of Strahd campaign. We're soon to hit level 4, and I'm trying to decide whether it's more prudent to up my stats with an ASI (I'd probably do a +1/+1 on Str/Cha if so), or to take a second feat. I'm already using Shield Master (which has served itself quite well), but if I did go with another feat, I'm torn between Resilient (Con), to allow me to hold Concentration spells that bit better (since as a tank, I tend to get hit more often*) and get that Con plus, or to take War Caster, since a lot of my spells are combat-situational and it gives that concentration bonus anyway. Downside, I doubt I'll get much use from the tertiary ability on it, since the spells I have are often not very reactionary.

There may also be other feats from UAs I'm not even remembering - anyone have any advice?



* of course, my AC 20 does work in my favour a lot of the time ;)

[JumboWheat01]

I'm personally quite fond of getting CHA up fast, because of your Aura later that pretty much gives you and your party the right to flip off any and all spell casters.

After all, you can't kill things if you're under the effects of a control spell!

[Pex]

What are your stats? While you don't need to get to 20 as soon as possible, I still need to look at the numbers for a more informed opinion.

[Clone]

It'd help if we knew your stat line, but as a Paladin it never hurts to have high CHA, especially since you aren't using a two-handed weapon and thus don't require a high STR.
The higher your CHA modifier, the better your saves become at level 6 which will also help with your concentration checks (unless it doesn't interact in that fashion, I could be mistaken). It also means you get an extra spell to prep each day which is nice, along with better charisma checks.

[Finback]

What are your stats? While you don't need to get to 20 as soon as possible, I still need to look at the numbers for a more informed opinion.

OK, so I found my level 2 copy, so nothing much has changed there..
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 14

[Corran]

Resilient con, followed by cha bumps is my advice. (Stick with bless for concentration.)
Though that might change if I learn your party composition. Do you have a melee rogue for example?

What characters are there in your party, besides yours?

[Pex]

Resilient Con would be my first choice. The hit points are necessary and might as well be proficient in the saving throw.

Second choice: +1 CO +1 WI for the hit points and saving throw boost.

Third choice but not strong: +1 CO +1 DX only because Shield Master likes DX.

Level 8 get that CH to 16.

Level 12, if you don't have ogre gauntlets or giant belt by then, ST to 18. The +1 to hit and damage is going to matter regardless of Bounded Accuracy, maybe even because of it. +1 is a big deal. If you have a Strength item but don't assume you'll have one, then CH to 18 and 20 at level 16, but +1 DX +1 WI has its appeal if you took Resilient Con at either level.

Level 16, CH to 18.

Level 19: Open for anything

[Finback]

Resilient con, followed by cha bumps is my advice. (Stick with bless for concentration.)
Though that might change if I learn your party composition. Do you have a melee rogue for example?

What characters are there in your party, besides yours?

Hahahaha, oh god. Deep gnome rogue who is an utter coward/compulsively picks up everything and is now carrying several curses; goliath barbarian with a piano fetish; forest gnome bard with narcolepsy; elf cleric of light; and a tiefling monk kleptomaniac. We've also had a human mystic*.

All in all, not a well-organised fighting force, but oh the laughter...

(The goliath and the mystic are the PCs of our DMs, who are alternating running so as to both be able to enjoy the game from a player side. So, the goliath was the first "round", then the mystic, now we have the goliath back. Our only big downside is some players cannot make it regularly, so the "core" is the tiefling, elf, deep gnome and my paladin, so at least we have the old "striker/healer/tank/skills monkey" rounded out.)

[Finback]

OK, assuming anyone still reads this, now I have a new quandary!

I was going to forge ahead with the Resilient (Con) feat, as it made a lot of sense, but with the new UA giving us a warlock patron for the Celestial, with a re-flavouring, it might work really well for my Vengeadin (assuming my DM approves, which is likely).

Now, my question is - do I stick with Resilient at 4th, and splurge into warlock at level 5, or take the plunge now?

[solidork]

My gut says actually wait until after level 5 of Paladin so you get Extra Attack.

[Citan]

OK, so I found my level 2 copy, so nothing much has changed there..
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 14
Hmm.
1) If you tend to suffer AOE and other DEX-saves often (or expect to later), I'd suggest to pick Warcaster rather than Resilient: Constitution so you can take Resilient:DEX later. Stacked with Shield Master and the later Aura of Protection, it will give you a very solid defense in the end

2) Otherwise if you tend to have concentration broken very often I'd go with Resilient:CON to use with Bless as a basis (helps attacks and saves), and bump CHA when you get level 8. If you still want better Dex saves in the end, you can always multiclass into Barbarian 2 to get Danger Sense but that would be quite a heavy cost though.


My gut says actually wait until after level 5 of Paladin so you get Extra Attack.
If OP has access to SCAG, I'd say not necessarily: at low level Paladin does not have that many slots to eat on smites, especially if ones want to keep enough fuel to buff himself.

And since...
a) OP is playing a Vengeance Paladin, probably with Bless stacked on it, meaning his chances of hitting the BBEG are high already (so you don't need Extra Attack -extra chances- as much as other people)
b) Warlock provides cantrips which give a nifty damage boost against single enemies (which is the motto of Vengeance Paladin in the first place)...

Getting Warlock 1 as his 5th character level would actually be a pretty good choice for him:
- Nearly as good or better sustained single-target damage, depending on whether foe chooses to move or not. Which in turn means...
- Better aggro: he can create a strong catch-22 situation for his dedicated foe: either suffer strong attacks from him, or move and risk immediate damage (Booming Blade) + potential OA.
- Along with that, he gets sustained buffs (1/short rest slot, perfect for his go-to Shield of Faith or Bless)...
- Nice archetype feature (cantrip for DEX-save distance attack, which Paladin usually lacks), great mobility spell to help him in some situations (Expeditious Retreat), and any other among Armor of Agathys (more useful later), Comprehend Languages (if he's a face), or Arms of Hagar / Hellish Rebuke.

[Finback]

At present, I've not had to deal with many Dex based saves or AOE spells - we're in CoS, and mostly just stand-up fistfights. I figured Resilient (Con) was better in the long run since the majority of the Vengadin spells are concentration based.

That being said, at present with only three spell slots, I'm very judicious about to when to use them. I think I've used Divine Smite *once* in all our combats; never used my Hunter's Mark.. I've used Bane to good effect once, and Compelled Duel a few times because I see my role as tank/target essential to allow the spellcasters the chance to get in.

We recently fought two hags at the same time and it was hard going - so I drew one into Compelled Duel, and it made a huge difference in the battle - neither she or I were really hitting, but it meant the other one got a beatdown from the barbarian, monk, rogue and cleric.

I am thinking of the Celestial patronage because the spells are both functional and thematic - a lot of fire and light, which would fit my backstory/rage issues. It would allow me some more spell slots (you *can* use them for either, yes? I've never really been much of a spell-caster in my prior games before), and also improved functionality - let's say there's no way I can get across the battlefield into combat in a single turn - at worst, I can move, fire off an eldritch blast and still be making myself a target, even if I can't get toe to toe with an enemy. I often find that if I cast a spell, I can move up to - but not always into melee range, meaning I haven't achieved any of my primary roles in the group (meatshield/backup medic).

[djreynolds]

You need to get IMO, charisma. It affects you Aura of Protection and you and your party needs this. If you lose bless or shield of faith... recast it. If you fail a wisdom save versus fear or charm, you may die.

Yes con saves are important, lots of undead that can hurt you if you fail these saves.

Both resilient con and charisma boost are huge. Also level 10 paladins aura of courage is important.

But aura of protection is huge for the party.

[Citan]

At present, I've not had to deal with many Dex based saves or AOE spells - we're in CoS, and mostly just stand-up fistfights. I figured Resilient (Con) was better in the long run since the majority of the Vengadin spells are concentration based.

That being said, at present with only three spell slots, I'm very judicious about to when to use them. I think I've used Divine Smite *once* in all our combats; never used my Hunter's Mark.. I've used Bane to good effect once, and Compelled Duel a few times because I see my role as tank/target essential to allow the spellcasters the chance to get in.

I am thinking of the Celestial patronage because the spells are both functional and thematic - a lot of fire and light, which would fit my backstory/rage issues. It would allow me some more spell slots (you *can* use them for either, yes? I've never really been much of a spell-caster in my prior games before), and also improved functionality - let's say there's no way I can get across the battlefield into combat in a single turn - at worst, I can move, fire off an eldritch blast and still be making myself a target, even if I can't get toe to toe with an enemy. I often find that if I cast a spell, I can move up to - but not always into melee range, meaning I haven't achieved any of my primary roles in the group (meatshield/backup medic).
Anyways, considering your feedback, I'd double advice taking Warcaster then dipping Warlock.
a) Yes your spell slots from Warlock will work with your Paladin spells, no worries.
b) Thanks to Warlock you will gain access to weapon cantrips who will useful on OA with Warcaster. :)
c) You will also gain useful spells.
d) You will want probably want to grab REsilient:DEX later.
e) Celestial gives you a "Healing Words light" which is great for you, as well as Sacred Flame (better in some situations than EB because it targets DEX saves) and Light (you are in the dark right?). Armor of Agathys may also help a bit in tanking later (imo it's not worth casting if not at least 2nd level spell).


You need to get IMO, charisma. It affects you Aura of Protection and you and your party needs this. If you lose bless or shield of faith... recast it. If you fail a wisdom save versus fear or charm, you may die.

Yes con saves are important, lots of undead that can hurt you if you fail these saves.

Both resilient con and charisma boost are huge. Also level 10 paladins aura of courage is important.

But aura of protection is huge for the party.
You are right in theory. In practice though, it really depends on each party.
1. Aura of Protection: from the words of OP himself, the party is more a band of ruffians vaguely fighting together than an organized fighting group. So my guess is that rarely would Monk, Barb or Rogue try and stick within the 10 feet of Paladin, kinda ruining the point of boosting it. Also, either Paladin or Cleric (or both) can keep Bless active for the whole group, making an immediate bonus to saves much better than a plain +1 CHA mod bump. So getting better concentration is more important than bumping Aura of Protection imo.

2. CON saves: I'll heartily believe you when you say undeads can make dangerous effects targeting CON but, between Cleric's "anti-undead" CD, the fact that Barbarian is proficient while Rogue and Monk can use mobility to put themselves out of risk, Cleric and Bard hanging back (I suppose at least) and getting several healing options, Paladin should be the only one really threatened (unless those effects you are speaking of are AOE/long range), so I'd say it is a very manageable risk. :)
EDIT: took a very quick glance at some undead (I don't know the campaign so I don't know which ones are common), but the only real dangers I saw for OP's CR are mummies (that is indeed very dangerous since needs remove curse) and wights (long-rest maximum health reduction). Others are inflicting poison (worse case Paladin uses his action on Lay on Hands) or frightened (Protection From Evil and Good). In all cases, I only saw effects that triggered on melee range or successful attacks (with Paladin having 20 AC).
Hence why imo it is a very manageable risk. :)

[djreynolds]

I do like war caster, it is a great feat, but for a paladin in CoS... charisma and resilient con will serve you and the team better, and team work is needed to complete CoS

Resilient con, with a 14 con will give you by 10th level a +6 for con saves (+4 pro & +2 con) and an additional +2 (14 charisma) for +8 on all constitution checks

Buffing charisma to 18 by 10th level, would give +6 con saves (+2con + 4 chr).... "everyone gets this +4"

Both are good enough for concentration checks and con saves

yes I like war caster but as a paladin you may not need this aside from advantage and the occasional AoO. Resilient con by 10th will give you +4 vs advantage's "+5", but resilient will give this vs all con checks

Now I'm sure you have survived the death house by you looking at 4th level now, a ghoul (CR1) is DC10 save.... failing this means paralysis and auto crits

Protection from evil will be your bread and butter, as it is disadvantage and some immunity versus most of these types in the game

But the problem is you can't have this and bless running together

The best solution is too have powerful saving throws with aura of protection/resilient con, so you can spam bless or place PFGE on an ally will low wisdom saves... like the barbarian

Shield master with help with "limited" dex saves, and its just damage.