Unarmed Swordsage

[Baldin]

Hi there,

In an upcomming campaign I want to play a monk-like character (member of the Scarlet Brotherhood) and thus would like to play an unarmed swordsage.
Now looking over the class my GM and I have already fixed the standards (aka wis to AC when unarmored and improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat).

I still feel like I nerf myself way to hard compared to the ragular swordsage, specialy due to the lack of armor. As a swordsage I have the exact same ac as my unarmed swordsage, however I can add any light armor I wish. We start at level 1 so my unarmed swordsage would have an ac of 15 at level 2 while the ragular swordsage has an ac of 18 or 19 (studded leather of chain mail).

Besides that weapons are way easier to enchant than fists. So my question is, how can I make the unarmed swordsage a viable choice?

[Eldariel]

It's not as strong as Swordsage on the first levels obviously, but that doesn't make it bad per ce. Pick some defensive maneuvers to cover for your AC (e.g. Baffling Defense), get party arcanist a Wand of Mage Armor to use on you during delves, pick up Unarmed Strike enhancing abilities like Snap Kick and Improved Natural Attack, and use the combination of weapons and UA Strikes with stuff like Wolf Fang Strike and go from there. Btw, generally people read UASS getting Monk UA damage progression which is kinda nice.

[Baldin]

Thanks for the reply. We also do that yes. I only wonder if maybe the AC bonus should be the same as the monks. Thus +1/4levels.

[fire_insideout]

Besides that weapons are way easier to enchant than fists. So my question is, how can I make the unarmed swordsage a viable choice?

UASS already is a viable choice. Just because you might be a few points behind regular SS in AC doesn't mean that it's any less fun or rewarding to play. If you want to play a monk-styled SS and your DM is aware of that just voice your concerns ("I'm a bit worried that I'll fall behind the rest of the party in effectiveness due to my lower AC than what might be expected for my role and level") and work to solve it together.

As for optimization I recommend the following google search: "site:giantitp.com unarmed swordsage optimize" :smallwink: (or just go with what Eldariel posted, I know from experience that s/he gives good advice!)

[Kaleph]

First, I'd suggest you actually use a light armor without proficiency. The first pick would be mithral chain Shirt, which you may complete with a mithral dastana and Chahar-Aina (from OA, if they're allowed by the DM). This removes also the Need to fix the wording of wis-to-AC. For the lower Levels a mage armor functions perfectly, as it was already highlighted.

Second, enchanting the fists. If your dungeon master agrees with you that a Monk-stiled character Needs some good fix, I'd go for the necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species. I know that this Manual is utterly banned by any reasonable DM, but on the other side this specific object would be (actually, is) allowed at my table, because otherwise the Monk natural strike would be not-competitive with any other form of melee fighting.

Question: are you going to two-weapon-fighting with the unarmed attack?

[Baldin]

Again thanks for all replies.

As for the two weapon fighting part, I'm not sure yet. I still have to figure out how I want to build my character in the long run and which maneuvers I'm ganna get. What would be the pro and cons to go two weapon fighting or not?

[jdizzlean]

i made a thread about this specifically not to long ago:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521695-has-anyone-ever-tried-monk-swordsage

If AC is a big concern of yours, I'd consider going w/ a race that has a natural bonus to AC. In our games we can do a LA+1 race or template free at creation, so you could address it that way w/ your dm, or just pay the 1 lvl in RHD. In my case, I went w/ Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, which has a natural ac of +3. As for balancing out the armed/unarmed, this race is also immune to poison, so you can use that as a modifier to your attacks as well for a little something extra.

there's a lot of the typical gitp arguing about crap that wasn't the intent of the original post, but if you read the thread, you'll understand a lot better how you can approach what you want to do.

here is the sheet for my character, it has swordsage stuff on there , i'll be doing ss for lvl 1, then monk for 2 lvls, then back to ss. sheet shows flurry of blows, because i don't care to re-enter it later ;/

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1182095

and a specific quote from that thread which is a nice thing also to think about:

For stance and feat one option to consider is either one of the Shadow Hand stances (both are good) and Shadow Blade as a feat. While in a shadow hand stance it gives Dex to damage with shadow hand weapons, one of which is unarmed strikes. Important to note is that it adds to damage, it doesn't replace strength, making it useful for a character with investment in both scores.


good luck :)

[Darrin]

What would be the pro and cons to go two weapon fighting or not?

The pro would be taking Shadow Blade and stacking Dex damage on top of Strength/weapon damage.

The cons would be you're already feat starved on top of taking Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style, so unless you're taking flaws it's going to be difficult to fit in all the TWF feats with everything else you want to do. It makes MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) even worse. Weapon enchantments are more expensive/complicated. And you still need a reliable method to move + full attack or all those TWF feats go to waste.

Obligatory plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[Eldariel]

However you need no feats to TWX with the maneuver specifically, which is nice early on.

[Kaleph]

Another pro are some manoevres thay pay off very good if you go 2Wpn, e.g. Raging Mongoose.

A con, besides what's already been told, is that some dungeon masters could ban 2Wpn with unarmed strike since it makes not so much sense. I'm one of those masters - yes I know that the FAQ say you can, but very often they've been proven to be wrong straight away. If you master allows it, though, this is simply not a con, so you may Forget it.

[Eldariel]

Another pro are some manoevres thay pay off very good if you go 2Wpn, e.g. Raging Mongoose.

A con, besides what's already been told, is that some dungeon masters could ban 2Wpn with unarmed strike since it makes not so much sense. I'm one of those masters - yes I know that the FAQ say you can, but very often they've been proven to be wrong straight away. If you master allows it, though, this is simply not a con, so you may Forget it.

You would surely allow Weapon + TWF though? Kicks + sword makes perfect sense and completely unambiguous. TWF UA alone is generally less obvious, but it is easy to think of as attacking with more limbs simultaneously, more strikes but less accuracy.

[Kaleph]

You would surely allow Weapon + TWF though? Kicks + sword makes perfect sense and completely unambiguous. TWF UA alone is generally less obvious, but it is easy to think of as attacking with more limbs simultaneously, more strikes but less accuracy.
I definitely agree to kick+sword; I think anyhow that flurry of blows is more reasonable and realistic to fulfill the multiple UA purpose, rather than TWF.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have got to recommend kicks / quarterstaff. You get the fun of a two handed weapon AND a off hand weapon. You can enchant the second end of the quarterstaff as a defending weapon to boost your defenses if you are worried about the loss of light armor. With greater magic weapon it grants +5 to your AC for basically the cost of a +2 weapon you are already going to be carrying. The imagery of a kung fu fighter twirling around with a staff and kicking people while attacking and defending with the staff is a strong one.

And buy the party wizard a level one pearl of power or two rather than a wand. He will likely prefer extra first level spells at the cost of prepping a spell he is already likely to use than a wand with a short duration and limited charges.

[John Longarrow]

Best way I've seen to play an unarmed swordsage is to take Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, ShadowBlade at 3rd, and do a 2 level dip into fighter to grab improved unarmed strike and weapon finesse.

Your build becomes very dex-centric but lets you have a good AC, access to a lot of weapons in addition to unarmed strike, and still use armor when you want. This feels much more like a classic Chinese movie hero than the book monk though. You combined armed and unarmed combat in one character.

[Darrin]

Best way I've seen to play an unarmed swordsage is to take Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, ShadowBlade at 3rd, and do a 2 level dip into fighter to grab improved unarmed strike and weapon finesse.


Taking Improved Unarmed Strike twice is somewhat counter-productive. I think you meant Superior Unarmed Strike, but this doesn't quite work either, as it's not a fighter bonus feat (although it should be).

Weapon Finesse can be obtained via a Swashbuckler dip. Barb 1 for pounce is always tempting. I usually reserve Fighter 2 for TWF/Improved TWF or PA/IBR/Shock Trooper, which still works for unarmed strike, but doesn't have the same damage output as two-handing.