Optimizing a already made Hexbalde/Pact of the blade warlock

[HermanTheWize]

See title; give me your suggestions on what I should take for ASIs and Feats Later. Also spells too

It seems like pumping Charisma then Constitution might be the best way to go.

Party Make Up:

HexBlade Warlock / Sword&Board (ME)
Eldritch Knight / Sword&Board
Arcane Trickster / Shortbow



Race / Level:

Level 4 Human Warlock(Hexblade / Pact of the Blade)

STATS:

10 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha

Feats:

Warcaster



Spell List(BY Memory):

Cantrips:

Booming Blade
Eldritch Blast
Mage Hand

1st Level Spells:
Shield
Hex

2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image
Invisibility
Suggestion

[jaappleton]

Honestly? Without Cursebringer, you're doing Hexblade wrong.

The ability to move your Curse is the key. Without it, you're wasting your core ability.

[rbstr]

Meh, the Hexblade is still plenty good w/o the cursebringer. The smiting is overrated, given what you can do with other spells, the reapplication is conditional on laying the final blow, plus at higher level the curse is always a bonus action away. Also, kind of dickish advice if the character is already made...

Cha 20 will be good. But you could wait and take another feat if you wanted.
Are you using Hex a bunch? Resilient con might be good...but you've already got warcaster.
What's the role you want to have? You could be a kind of THP-spiky-tank by taking Sentinel and using Armor of Agathys/Mirror Image a lot. Could be more of a skirmisher with Mobile.
Are you dual-wielding or using a shield?

[HermanTheWize]

Honestly? Without Cursebringer, you're doing Hexblade wrong.

The ability to move your Curse is the key. Without it, you're wasting your core ability.


I'm sure my DM will allow it if I ask.

[HermanTheWize]

Meh, the Hexblade is still plenty good w/o the cursebringer. The smiting is overrated, given what you can do with other spells, the reapplication is conditional on laying the final blow, plus at higher level the curse is always a bonus action away. Also, kind of dickish advice if the character is already made...

Cha 20 will be good. But you could wait and take another feat if you wanted.
Are you using Hex a bunch? Resilient con might be good...but you've already got warcaster.
What's the role you want to have? You could be a kind of THP-spiky-tank by taking Sentinel and using Armor of Agathys/Mirror Image a lot. Could be more of a skirmisher with Mobile.
Are you dual-wielding or using a shield?

I'm using sword and shield.

I have been using Hex a ton...but I will probably start using more defensive buffs as enemies get stronger.

IE Blink, Mirror Image...so on


Role Wise I should be more of an Off-Tank that is versatile

[Khrysaes]

If you are okay with Multiclassing. Oathbreaker Paladin would be good. Giving you more cha to your damage with your weapon and fighting style. Fighter would be good for the action surge and fighting style. Sorc would be good for quicken. Other paladin's are good too.

If you take fighter or Paladin, I suggest taking either to level 6. because you get good abilities for both at 6. Fighter you may consider going to 8, with 12 warlock you get up to 6 ASI. Paladin you can stop at 6 if you are okay with only 4 ASI.

If you take Cursebringer, GWM is good, so is the GW fighting style. However, it doesn't make sense to me that hexblade gives you the ability to use charisma for attack and damage, then require you to take it to give you access to an invocation that you cant use that ability on(Cursebringer). Mechanically it makes sense, because it would be strong. But since you are required to be a hexblade to take it in the first place I don't see why you just invalidate one of your features by doing so.

Alternatively you could multiclass into Bard, cleric, or sorc. and get more spell slots to use with cursebringer's smite. Or both.

I was thinking earlier of a 6 Oathbreaker/4 Hexblade/10 cleric or bard. Cleric requires higher wisdom. also 8/8/4 gets an extra ASI, but 6/4/10 gets a 7th level spell slot, and the 10 cleric divine intervention.

If you just went with 12-14 Warlock, and 6 oathbreaker, you could add Charisma to weapon damage twice? and charisma to all saves. Just hope you don't fight fiends or undead...

[jaappleton]

Meh, the Hexblade is still plenty good w/o the cursebringer. The smiting is overrated, given what you can do with other spells, the reapplication is conditional on laying the final blow, plus at higher level the curse is always a bonus action away. Also, kind of dickish advice if the character is already made...

Didn't mean to come off as dickish. But I've played 2 Hexblades now, and the ability to shift the Curse was pretty key. Devil's Sight / Darkness with GWM made me a darkness covered greatsword of doom, cleaving through enemies and constantly shifting my curse.

Just wanted to forward my experience.

[Vaz]

You can still use Curse Bringer - you just cannot use your Charisma for attack/damage, and have to rely on your +0 Strength modifier though. The best way around this is to pick up Paladin 2; you get a fighting style for +2 damage and smite after you've picked up Extra Attack. You can at least use your Wrathful/Branding Smite for additional damage until that time, but they're concentration spells and get in the way of additional damage like hex.

It's a shame you're already prebuilt - Warlock 1/Paladin 5/Warlock+ feels like a better progression.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

If you just went with 12-14 Warlock, and 6 oathbreaker, you could add Charisma to weapon damage twice? and charisma to all saves. Just hope you don't fight fiends or undead...

Unfortunately Aura of Hate do sent starto til lvl 7. at which point you'd be sacrificing at will Hexblade curse (6dmg) for +5 CHA dmg that could be used against you. not worth it, and that's without considering the advantage and healing you also get from the curse.

[Khrysaes]

Unfortunately Aura of Hate do sent starto til lvl 7. at which point you'd be sacrificing at will Hexblade curse (6dmg) for +5 CHA dmg that could be used against you. not worth it, and that's without considering the advantage and healing you also get from the curse.

Gah! I keep doing that, thinking that the level 7 thing of a paladin is a level 3 thing.

Yeah, you want 14 Warlock.

6 paladin is still good, since you get Cha to saves, fighting style, more spell slots(to fuel smite or cast spells, cast your warlock spells with pally slots, use warlock slots for smite), The extra attack also frees up one of your invocations, you could always start 5 or more warlock and take the extra attack invocation, and just switch it out when you take a level of warlock after 5 or 6 paladin. That way it wouldn't be late.

This is of course if you care about the hexblade curse. which is awesome of course. If you dont, just get Cursebringer, and multiclass into a full casting class to gain higher slots than 5th.

[HermanTheWize]

What level 3 spells do you guys think are the best for my character to pick up at level 5?

Including these Hexblade Spells

1st shield, wrathful smite
2nd branding smite, magic weapon
3rd blink, elemental weapon
4th phantasmal killer, staggering smite
5th cone of cold, destructive wave



BTW, I have a magic weapon so I can't use Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon

I think I'm go more into the crowd control / defense direction for now. MY guy seems strong enough offensively

[jaappleton]

Hypnotic Pattern shuts enemies down pretty damn well.

[HermanTheWize]

Blink
Hypnotic Pattern
Fly

Seem to be the best choices.

[jaappleton]

Blink
Hypnotic Pattern
Fly

Seem to be the best choices.

I disagree slightly on Blink. I question if it's truly superior for you instead of Mirror Image.

If you're trying to tank, trying to draw attention, then being out of play in an extradimensional space doesn't allow you to do that.

That's not to say it's a bad spell. I just don't know if it suits what you're trying to do.

[rbstr]

I agree, Mirror Image is going to be more useful than Blink if you're trying to tank. Blink is better if you're trying to not get hit period.

Besides the new spell you get I'd drop Shield for Armor of Agathys.
Shield is not a great use of a 3rd level slot. AoA at that level will give you 15 THP and at least 15 damage...it could, potentially, be way more!

Hypnotic pattern is great. Counterspell might be worth it if your other party members have decent control spells and you fight casters.

For a 4th level spells I think Banishment and Staggering Smite.

[Corran]

Seconding dropping shield and not picking blink.

Spells that to a good job when cast with higher level slots is your game.
To that end, I think that hold person, armor of agathys, counterspell and a bit later on banishment, are all good choices. So is invisibility if your party is utilizing stealth (is the EK in heavy armor? Do you and the arcane trickster both scout ahead?). Destructive wave and cone of cold are both good choices for when you reach that level. Pick one of them for some needed AoE coverage.

Charm person can still be good for out of combat purposes, and will act as an out of combat version of mass suggestion with your high level slots (consider picking it up before you take mass suggestion, or if you prefer another arcanum than mass suggestion).

[jaappleton]

If you can somehow use Spell Points so that you're not tied to only having two spell slots, so that a 1st level spell can actually be cast at 1st level (Ask your DM), then Shield rules. But for a 3rd level slot? No.

[RSP]

Honestly? Without Cursebringer, you're doing Hexblade wrong.

The ability to move your Curse is the key. Without it, you're wasting your core ability.

Completely disagree. Hexblades being able to keep casting stat and melee attack stat together is their best feature: it allows them to be great at attacking and casting.

Not to mention the Cursebringer invocation could be much better used on Agonizing Blast, keeping EB effective for when needed at range. Since Chr is your maxed stat, you'll be very effective at range as well.

As a bladelock it'll also maximize your Lifedrinker damage while allowing you to still pick up either more Con (HPs and Concentration) or more Feats.

Going Str build, and then having less Con and less Chr for the same minute duration on the curse, in my opinion, isn't worth it at all.

If you never plan on casting spells, and just always smiting, I guess it's worth it, but if just doing GWM and never casting spells, not using EB, why are you a Warlock? A Fighter would do much better throughout your career. Plus moving Hex and the Curse are each Bonus Actions which a) limit the moving of each, and b) limits the use of GWM's extra attack feature (which is the better part of the feat)

My experience with a Bladelock (fiend as it was pre-Hexblade) was that I hated that I had to choose between casting or melee. I chose to pump melee, and all my casting suffered including EB, eventually not having the DCs/attack mod to make it worthwhile.

Also, if going that far, Hexblade 14 makes it a moot point.

The Hexblade fixed the bladelock, allowing it to keep its versatility while maintaining its role as an effective secondary melee.


Blink
Hypnotic Pattern
Fly

Seem to be the best choices.

I like Blink on a non-Tanking Bladelock. (Edit: as pointed out, it's a switch out option as you level, however, unlike Mirror Image, Blink isn't an illusion so is still usable even on monsters with Truesight. Non-Concentration is great too. Just a thought)

HP is good but I prefer Fear (and you don't need both). Fear isn't cancelled by damage or by another character's actions. Additionally, it forces the effected characters to drop whatever they're holding and run away from it. So essentially you're now fighting unarmed enemies. Adding disadvantage to that, if they're boxed in, is a greater shutdown than HP. As you'll be in the thick of things anyway, the range won't be as much of a factor.

Not a huge fan of Fly. You already have the best ranged cantrip in the game in EB, so flying enemies don't really bother you as much as other melee builds, and I hate the chance of losing Concentration while also trying to be in melee range (the EK will not be joining you in flight for quite awhile, so you'll be tanking).

Last thing: multiclassing Pally isn't great as you'll need to pump that Str first. I'd avoid multiclassing in general as you want to get Hexblade 14 asap.

[HermanTheWize]

Thanks for all the replies!

Very insightful.

I like the AoA ideas.

I agree with the assessment mirror image is better for tanking than Blinking(if I disappear, how can I tank)

[Ruebin Rybnik]

If you happen to have Devil Sight invocation and want a little control then take Hunger of Hadar. Maybe not great all the time because your party can't see through it, but in a pinch its great.
For example if your group is taking a beating then you could give them some cover while still tanking and killing inside. If you're able to coordinate it they could be waiting just outside the darkness killing anything that escapes.

[RSP]

Thanks for all the replies!

Very insightful.

I like the AoA ideas.

I agree with the assessment mirror image is better for tanking than Blinking(if I disappear, how can I tank)

If tanking, I'd definitely go AoA over Shield. Likewise, Fear over HP for crowd control. Blink and MI are less needed, though MI would be better for a couple levels until AoA picks up more temp HPs.

Thought by "off-tank" you meant EK would be the main Tank, hence the Blink recommendation as it gives mobility as well as protection, sans Concentration.

Keep in mind, if regularly using Hex, that's already 1 slot used up per Short Rest. Granted, it can last multiple combats, but if Tanking, you'll eventually lose Concentration (though Warcaster helps). As you get into 6+ level range, the hits you take are going to start increasing to numbers where you're going against DCs higher than 10 to maintain. AoA helps, but won't last more than 1, maybe 2, hits without some form of damage mitigation.

So if Hex and AoA are up, that's 2 rounds of combat to use all your slots (until 11th).

I think it works much better to avoid getting hit, let the EK tank, Blink and Hex to maximize damage, while eliminating the need to make so many Concentration checks and having Hex last through multiple encounters, and short rests eventually, which frees up your slots for other castings.

But this is just my two cents, obviously ignore and play as you find brings the most fun. I'm just relaying what I went through thinking a bladelock could tank and maintain Hex for 8+ hours, and finding out it doesn't really work that well usually. .

[rbstr]

Devil's sight should not work through Hunger of Hadar. It explicitly excludes all light, including magical light and it inflicts blindness explicitly. That's very different wording than the darkness spell.

A Very Cool Spell IMO.

[Sir cryosin]

How does your DM run encounters? Because that could change the way you can fight. If it one or two battle encounters per Adventureing day a cure bringer would be nice as if your DM use large number of creatures. But if you have a lot of small to medium fightes a S&B style would last longer. Also if your DM use a lot of groups Cruse bringer and burning hex is devastating. But it's a one encounter thing and I hate that. Also how many short rest does your group take in-between encounters? Also remember you can spec your hexblade any way you want and still carry around a sword and shield.

Are you look for advice on picking invocations or just what feats and ASI's to take?.
One feat to look at taking is inspiring leader to get you and party a nice chunk of temp HP.

[Matrix_Walker]

Honestly? Without Cursebringer, you're doing Hexblade wrong.

The ability to move your Curse is the key. Without it, you're wasting your core ability.

I think I'm going to have to disagree. Especially on the stat configuration here.

In a party of 5-8, the chances of landing the killing blow is pretty low, and Curse Bringer can't benefit from Hex Warrior, and leads to them being quite MAD.

The increased crit range and damage rider makes barrages of Eldritch blasts fantastic in against the big bad and it comes back on a short rest.

[RSP]

How does your DM run encounters? Because that could change the way you can fight. If it one or two battle encounters per Adventureing day a cure bringer would be nice as if your DM use large number of creatures. But if you have a lot of small to medium fightes a S&B style would last longer. Also if your DM use a lot of groups Cruse bringer and burning hex is devastating. But it's a one encounter thing and I hate that. Also how many short rest does your group take in-between encounters? Also remember you can spec your hexblade any way you want and still carry around a sword and shield.

Are you look for advice on picking invocations or just what feats and ASI's to take?.
One feat to look at taking is inspiring leader to get you and party a nice chunk of temp HP.

Good advice regarding DM encounter styles, but I think you mean Chilling Hex for groups (Burning Hex only damages the target of the Curse). Though again, using Cursebringer means Str is main stat so that bonus action damage to enemies w/in 5' goes from 4 or 5 for sword and boards using Chr as main stat, to probably 2 for those with Cursebringer.

[jaappleton]

I think I'm going to have to disagree. Especially on the stat configuration here.

In a party of 5-8, the chances of landing the killing blow is pretty low, and Curse Bringer can't benefit from Hex Warrior, and leads to them being quite MAD.

The increased crit range and damage rider makes barrages of Eldritch blasts fantastic in against the big bad and it comes back on a short rest.

Fair.

I ran my Hexblades in a party of 2. So I got plenty of kills. I just find the "Without Cursebinger, your Curse is one and done" to be incredibly limiting.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

Devil's sight should not work through Hunger of Hadar. It explicitly excludes all light, including magical light and it inflicts blindness explicitly. That's very different wording than the darkness spell.

A Very Cool Spell IMO.

Ah yes i reread HoH and you're right, It doesn't create magical darkness, more like a pocket where sight doesn't exist. Well Darkness is still good then, but i really like Hunger of Hadar. Oh well.

[Khrysaes]

Fair.

I ran my Hexblades in a party of 2. So I got plenty of kills. I just find the "Without Cursebinger, your Curse is one and done" to be incredibly limiting.

Well at level 14 it becomes at will, so I guess you could use cursebringer until then, and swap it out afterwards. Although that gets put off as you multiclass. Perhaps the hexblade hex should have an invocation to make it function more like the spell hex or hunter's mark, without the need for cursebringer or killing blow. Since 1: you don't get Cha to attack or damage with cursebringer(without blade pact), and 2: getting the killing blow is difficult.

Asking the DM if they will allow an invocation that does
" If the target cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points, you can immediately change the target of the curse to a different creature. This change doesn’t extend the curse’s duration."

Since UA is already being used, having this invocation, which is a bit more flexible, but a bit weaker than Cursebringer, should be okay.

Maybe even ask to tag it on to Relentless hex, because it does make your hex relentless what with it not ending. Also allows you to tank better by getting up in the enemies face.

[RSP]

Devil's sight should not work through Hunger of Hadar. It explicitly excludes all light, including magical light and it inflicts blindness explicitly. That's very different wording than the darkness spell.

A Very Cool Spell IMO.

Not sure about this. Excluding light doesn't matter to darkvision or Devils Sight. The spell specifically only causes blindness to those within its "void:"

"No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded."

Since it doesn't create Darkness (per the spell), it doesn't, RAW, effect darkvision or Devils Sight for those outside the AoE.

[Sir cryosin]

Good advice regarding DM encounter styles, but I think you mean Chilling Hex for groups (Burning Hex only damages the target of the Curse). Though again, using Cursebringer means Str is main stat so that bonus action damage to enemies w/in 5' goes from 4 or 5 for sword and boards using Chr as main stat, to probably 2 for those with Cursebringer.

Yes it chilling hex thank you. Also I don't like throwing in magic items because not everyone gets to use them but gauntlets of ogre are a uncommon item and cheap to craft or buy.

[rbstr]

Not sure about this. Excluding light doesn't matter to darkvision or Devils Sight. The spell specifically only causes blindness to those within its "void:"

"No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded."

Since it doesn't create Darkness (per the spell), it doesn't, RAW, effect darkvision or Devils Sight for those outside the AoE.

I was definitely thinking from the perspective of being inside (which I woudl say blinds you regardless of devil's sight or darkvision). From the outside I suppose you're correct about devil's sight, at least. Darkvision, though, would probably count the interior as dim light.

[Matrix_Walker]

Fair.

I ran my Hexblades in a party of 2. So I got plenty of kills. I just find the "Without Cursebinger, your Curse is one and done" to be incredibly limiting.

Given the OP's configuration, I'd say a Curse Bringer with no STR adjustment would be even more limiting.

I think your experience is probably an outlier by a fair margin.

[HermanTheWize]

What invocations do you guys think are the best to go for.

So far:

Agonizing Blast
Devil's Sight
For level 5 Thirsting blade seems the way to go



After those, what do you guys think?

[Matrix_Walker]

What invocations do you guys think are the best to go for.

So far:

Agonizing Blast
Devil's Sight
For level 5 Thirsting blade seems the way to go



After those, what do you guys think?

I'd go Relentless Hex. Then you can bamf to the big bad and wail on him without using a spell slot (and misty step away to use EB if you get in trouble).

The extra attack isn't that great when you compare to the extra die you'll get from level 5 booming blade. so you can do 1d8+4 slash twice or 1d8+4 slash+1d8 thunder+2d8 thunder if they move...

Since SCAG, Extra attack is kind of lackluster.

[HermanTheWize]

I'd go Relentless Hex. Then you can bamf to the big bad and wail on him without using a spell slot (and misty step away to use EB if you get in trouble).

The extra attack isn't that great when you compare to the extra die you'll get from level 5 booming blade. so you can do 1d8+4 slash twice or 1d8+4 slash+1d8 thunder+2d8 thunder if they move...

Since SCAG, Extra attack is kind of lackluster.


After recovering a "evil" blade and resisting all it's attempts to mind control my character, I now wield Death Branding

The DM didn't think Id try...lol, showed him how crazy my character can be!(Surely not stupid right?)

I was told at level 5 it would do d4 extra necrotic damage on hit.(And most likely increase later, if my character doesn't die).

Also, after a huge loss in the game my character vowed to gain more power no matter the cost to himself so he could protect his friends.

So he ended up sacrificing a few big bads and a few thiefs that he had slain to the sword and in return I was told there would be a power boost, but also some real downsides.

Original my character was going to become a paladin...but his mentor was murdered in front of his face and he couldn't do anything...so this went way different than planned. The mentor was actually supposed to help him become a Paladin eventually...but that's how she goes.




What I'm getting at is I think extra attacks might be more useful in my case.



So using he it looks like this:

Thirsting Blade(w/ hex):

d8 + 4 + d6 + d4

+

d8 + 4 + d6 + d4

= 2d8 + 8 +2d6 + 2d4


Booming Blade(w/ hex):

2d8 + 4 + d6 + (2d8 if they move)

[RSP]

I'd go Relentless Hex. Then you can bamf to the big bad and wail on him without using a spell slot (and misty step away to use EB if you get in trouble).

The extra attack isn't that great when you compare to the extra die you'll get from level 5 booming blade. so you can do 1d8+4 slash twice or 1d8+4 slash+1d8 thunder+2d8 thunder if they move...

Since SCAG, Extra attack is kind of lackluster.

Keep in mind Relentless Hex uses a Bonus Action, which is already in use with the Curse and Hex (and switching these to new targets).

If planning on using Hex or the Hexblade's Curse, I'd limit what else you use that depends on a BA as well.

[RSP]

The extra attack isn't that great when you compare to the extra die you'll get from level 5 booming blade. so you can do 1d8+4 slash twice or 1d8+4 slash+1d8 thunder+2d8 thunder if they move...

Since SCAG, Extra attack is kind of lackluster.


After recovering a "evil" blade and resisting all it's attempts to mind control my character, I now wield Death Branding

Booming Blade doesn't compare to extra attack very well, in my opinion.

Particularly with a Bladelock, you're getting too many add ons per hit to want to consolidate everything under Booming Blade. Just adding your Ability mod, which on a Hexblade should be maxed asap, is already matching or better than the added d8 (~4.5). Plus the d8 on weapon damage should beat how often creatures are actually moving and taking the extra damage from moving.

Once you factor in that Hexblade's Curse (+prof in dam) and Hex (+d6 in dam) both add per hit, you really want to have the added attack.

Not to mention BB is all or nothing: miss and you've wasted your turn. Extra attack gives you a second shot.