Paladin 2/Valor Bard X - decent build?

[krunchyfrogg]

I know it won't be the nuker a paladin 2/sorcerer would be, but you'd get multiple attacks and some great stuff with magical secrets.

You'd get a lot of skills too.

Has anybody tried this one out? Any input?

[PeteNutButter]

Smites + extra attack + full caster... Hard to go wrong.

Your spell list is generally a bit worse, but you have more slots than a paladin 6/sorc x and more attacks than the paladin 2/sorc x. The big thing missing is the metamagic, but it gets enough to make it a very strong character.

I rated it gold on my MC guide. Top notch.

[krunchyfrogg]

Smites + extra attack + full caster... Hard to go wrong.

Your spell list is generally a bit worse, but you have more slots than a paladin 6/sorc x and more attacks than the paladin 2/sorc x. The big thing missing is the metamagic, but it gets enough to make it a very strong character.

I rated it gold on my MC guide. Top notch.

Thanks. I feel like the sorcerer is more powerful, but the bard is more well rounded. The sorcerer is a bit played out as well.

[Corran]

Mmmm, no I haven't tried this or even thought much about it, but lets see...

(First off, I like much better the thought of a paladin 6+/ lore bard X, who relies on GFB -variant halfelf-, with find steed from paladin 5 and AoA as one of the additional magical secrets, but oh well, back to what you are asking.)

(My idea of optimal paladin multiclassing revolves around being str based and starting as a paladin for the heavy armor, at least for the vast majority of builds that I can think of. So I am assuming this when I discuss things below.)


Ok. Lets see what the valor bard gets.

Bonus proficiencies: Worthless.

Combat inspiration: Not much to say regarding optimization if this is on an ally, but if it's on you, it would profit from a good AC, so you can make the best of this by going S&B. This can make up somehow for not getting access to the shield spell, though if you plan on playing a tank, you need the shield spell. Far from a defining feature that locks you to being S&B though.

Extra attack: Ok, if you somehow grab GFB ((additional) magical secrtets, halfelf variant, magic initiate), this feature almost becomes irrelevant. I say almost, as it has some value when you want to go as much nova as you can go (though this is a good idea only for very edge cases). But you do have it. To make the most of this feature, you need to either plan for GWM or for SM (as the bonus action shove requires from you to take the attack action). I dont like GWM on such a build (as the one you presented in the op), and there is some serious overlap between the bonus action shove from SM and bardic inspiration, but perhaps that last part can be worked around since the potential expertise in athletics and/or if within a heavy melee party, it might be worth complicating a bit more than necessary your action economy (in the case of SM, try to use your bardic inspiration before combat, though if combat has started and you need to use it with your bonus action, you could try to use GFB on that particular round; though if you do get GFB, after some point, you will have trouble justifying using extra attack and SM shove, and you build towards the direction of having two close competing options for the same thing, which is never good in regard to optimization; that's a good reason as to why I prefer lore rather than valor for such a multiclass, as lore allows me to focus on just one direction and optimize better).

Battle magic: This can be good. And once you get it, it adds little to the reasons why you should maybe not have taken shield master. But perhaps only a little. Anyway, I am sure there must be some good combos regarding this. (Upcast) Hold person/monster combined with smite-powered attack is the first easy one that comes to mind.


So, bottom line.....
Maybe...... just a maybe...... aim for shield master (and expertise in athletics)? (The scag cantrips have really shifted the balance of a lot of classes/subclasses, and the valor bard is just one of the victims). GFB might be just too good to pass up by starting as anything else other than variant halfelf?
Aim for hold person/monster in your list of known spells.
Armor of agathys is a good magical secret (but an even better additional magical secret), for someone with high level slots such as you, and who also suffers from reduced melee survivability.
I always like mobile and BB on such types of builds that are not tanky enough, as I dont trust them to stay long in melee, but that's just me (and there is nothing special to a paly/bard about utilizing BB and hit&run to a great extent).

The paladin dip offers little other than smite (which I find seriously overrated). Defense is probably the best fighting style (if you pass up on weapon cantrips and go for extra attack spamming, dueling is better than defense; but extra attack spamming offers little over just using gfb, unless you have a melee party which thus would profit from you using SM). 4-6 extra paladin spells prepared from the paladin's 1st level spell list, can help you picking up more bard spells nd thus could increase your versatility, if only by a tiny little.

I guess this is to what I sum up the wisdom of the decision of going valor instead of lore (let me repeat myself for emphasis):
Extra attack spamming offers little over just using gfb, unless you have a melee party which thus would profit from you using SM.



As for which spells to pick (from the bard list and from magical secrets), well, this is a huge discussion and my post has run long already (plus I feel more comfortable to leave suggestions regarding spells to posters with more experience with such a multiclass).

[Biggstick]

it just takes a while for the built to really come online. You're pretty much a melee support PC until character level 8 and have your extra attack.

Once you get there though, or if you simply start at a higher level, you'll have a good time.

[PeteNutButter]

Mmmm, no I haven't tried this or even thought much about it, but lets see...

(First off, I like much better the thought of a paladin 6+/ lore bard X, who relies on GFB -variant halfelf-, with find steed from paladin 5 and AoA as one of the additional magical secrets, but oh well, back to what you are asking.)

(My idea of optimal paladin multiclassing revolves around being str based and starting as a paladin for the heavy armor, at least for the vast majority of builds that I can think of. So I am assuming this when I discuss things below.)


Ok. Lets see what the valor bard gets.

Bonus proficiencies: Worthless.

Combat inspiration: Not much to say regarding optimization if this is on an ally, but if it's on you, it would profit from a good AC, so you can make the best of this by going S&B. This can make up somehow for not getting access to the shield spell, though if you plan on playing a tank, you need the shield spell. Far from a defining feature that locks you to being S&B though.

Extra attack: Ok, if you somehow grab GFB ((additional) magical secrtets, halfelf variant, magic initiate), this feature almost becomes irrelevant. I say almost, as it has some value when you want to go as much nova as you can go (though this is a good idea only for very edge cases). But you do have it. To make the most of this feature, you need to either plan for GWM or for SM (as the bonus action shove requires from you to take the attack action). I dont like GWM on such a build (as the one you presented in the op), and there is some serious overlap between the bonus action shove from SM and bardic inspiration, but perhaps that last part can be worked around since the potential expertise in athletics and/or if within a heavy melee party, it might be worth complicating a bit more than necessary your action economy (in the case of SM, try to use your bardic inspiration before combat, though if combat has started and you need to use it with your bonus action, you could try to use GFB on that particular round; though if you do get GFB, after some point, you will have trouble justifying using extra attack and SM shove, and you build towards the direction of having two close competing options for the same thing, which is never good in regard to optimization; that's a good reason as to why I prefer lore rather than valor for such a multiclass, as lore allows me to focus on just one direction and optimize better).

Battle magic: This can be good. And once you get it, it adds little to the reasons why you should maybe not have taken shield master. But perhaps only a little. Anyway, I am sure there must be some good combos regarding this. (Upcast) Hold person/monster combined with smite-powered attack is the first easy one that comes to mind.


So, bottom line.....
Maybe...... just a maybe...... aim for shield master (and expertise in athletics)? (The scag cantrips have really shifted the balance of a lot of classes/subclasses, and the valor bard is just one of the victims). GFB might be just too good to pass up by starting as anything else other than variant halfelf?
Aim for hold person/monster in your list of known spells.
Armor of agathys is a good magical secret (but an even better additional magical secret), for someone with high level slots such as you, and who also suffers from reduced melee survivability.
I always like mobile and BB on such types of builds that are not tanky enough, as I dont trust them to stay long in melee, but that's just me (and there is nothing special to a paly/bard about utilizing BB and hit&run to a great extent).

The paladin dip offers little other than smite (which I find seriously overrated). Defense is probably the best fighting style (if you pass up on weapon cantrips and go for extra attack spamming, dueling is better than defense; but extra attack spamming offers little over just using gfb, unless you have a melee party which thus would profit from you using SM). 4-6 extra paladin spells prepared from the paladin's 1st level spell list, can help you picking up more bard spells nd thus could increase your versatility, if only by a tiny little.

I guess this is to what I sum up the wisdom of the decision of going valor instead of lore (let me repeat myself for emphasis):
Extra attack spamming offers little over just using gfb, unless you have a melee party which thus would profit from you using SM.



As for which spells to pick (from the bard list and from magical secrets), well, this is a huge discussion and my post has run long already (plus I feel more comfortable to leave suggestions regarding spells to posters with more experience with such a multiclass).

Extra attack is really really good when combined with the need to nova, which is the point of paladin. When something needs to die, it needs to die now.

Combine it with Hold Person/Monster and you are in business. You lack the ability to quicken those spells, but you can still ready a hold person to some point after the target has taken their turn, but still before your turn. That way if they fail their save you get a chance at hitting them for that automatic crit, before they can make another save.

I agree though that paladin 6/lore bard x is stronger in the long run, but the valor bard comes online earlier and hits harder earlier. At level 6 you'll be smiting with 3rd level slots when needed. For either build though its hard not to justify taking 1-4 levels of sorcerer at some point.

[Specter]

The bard is not worse for a pally mc than a sorcerer, he's just more focused on support. The smiting and the casting stay the same, and you get the amazing Bardic Inspiration to boot. And come level 12, you can still pick the best paladin spells like Aura of Vitality and Circle of Power.

[djreynolds]

Paladin 6 is too much to pass up, that bonus to saves is huge.

[agnos]

Having played this build until 12 (where I started into Sorcerer), it's solid. It's a huge power spike at 7, 8, and 9 where you get Hypnotic Pattern, Short Rest inspiration, Extra Attack, etc. It's noticeably weak at 3-6. My personal recommendation is to start bard for the first 7 and then switch to Paladin. Your saves are slightly worse (Dex only prevents damage, Wisdom prevents not acting), you lose heavy armor, and you're slightly less tanky. Overall though, it's a much less painful build as you have only 1 bad level (the first level you take Pally) instead of being behind until you hit 8 or 9. A nice benefit of going Bard to 6-7 is that you can get your feat at 4 for Resilient Con (which overall is stronger than War Caster). You slightly miss the extra other benefits of bumping Cha (more inspiration, higher DCs, better skills) but the +4-5 on Con saves you'll get from it in the mid levels is worth it. The second detriment of this build is that it's significantly worse if you can't get your hands on a Belt of Giant Strength or Gauntlets of Ogre Power since you don't really have the chance to bump both Str and Cha.

[Citan]

I know it won't be the nuker a paladin 2/sorcerer would be, but you'd get multiple attacks and some great stuff with magical secrets.

You'd get a lot of skills too.

Has anybody tried this one out? Any input?
Too much input to give.
Just know that this is a great one. Contrarily to what you believe, this one can be better than Sorcerer. It just plays very differently, its main strength comes from the fact that you get Bardic Inspiration and choice of great spells through Magic Secrets. great spells to get: Haste, Counterspell, any Conjure spell, Simulacrum.

If you are looking for detailed input, I suggest you read the Bard related guides with the mindset of "mine will be a melee one because better armor and smite ability", but apart from that it is basically a Valor Bard. ;)

Just start Paladin for proficiencies if you are going STR-based warrior (heavy armor), otherwise Bard (advantage on skills).
Then stick Bard up until you get Extra Attack, then consider dipping.
Reason for that is that while you may like the idea of having smite very early, if you go Paladin first for two levels you will be frustrated by the lack of fuel for both smiting and spells.
Being Bard first gives you the time to get the hang of it (notably what spells and how to use them), then when you actually get smite you have enough slots to split it between casting and smiting as needed.
At least that's my personal view. :)

[Gtdead]

I had a pally 11/lore bard 9 in mind, but I never got to expand on it. The point was that bard would compliment the pally with extra spellslots and not miss on the high level spells because of magic secrets.

The truth is that I don't like how the bard abilities synergize with pally, and the build's point is lvl 17, but perhaps there is something to the multiclass that I haven't considered yet, at least compared to sorc or lock.

[Klorox]

Paladin 6 is too much to pass up, that bonus to saves is huge.

As a huge fan of the paladin/sorcerer, I have to say I'm on the fence with this one.

Only 2 levels of paladin are great if all you want is better armor and the ability to smite. You're just a tiny bit behind a mono-classed sorcerer. If you can get GFB or BB, I don't think missing out on extra attack is a big deal.

Those saving throw bonuses are amazing though. They really are.

[JAL_1138]

Paladin 2/Valor Bard X is my go-to for a melee VB. The heavy armor, couple of useful Paladin spells, a smidge of free healing per day (useful at low levels, not so much at higher levels), and especially the Smites make a great addition to Valor Bards, and to me significantly increase their versatility in terms of party role as it allows them to pinch-hit as a solid-enough frontliner if the situation calls for it. It's still a fullcaster, and works well if you play it as a Paladin until level 6 or so, and as a (non-stealthy) Bard with better armor and a good melee nova option in a pinch after you start getting 3rd-level spells. I've played a few in League and they've been working out pretty well. I've been building mine with Polearm Master + another feat or two that combo well with PAM for the most part, like PAM+GWM, PAM+Sentinel, and PAM+Warcaster+Spell Sniper+Booming Blade as a Magical Secret, but I'm thinking of going for a Shield Master+Warcaster or Warcaster+Resilient: Con build if I do another one.


I had a pally 11/lore bard 9 in mind, but I never got to expand on it. The point was that bard would compliment the pally with extra spellslots and not miss on the high level spells because of magic secrets.

The truth is that I don't like how the bard abilities synergize with pally, and the build's point is lvl 17, but perhaps there is something to the multiclass that I haven't considered yet, at least compared to sorc or lock.

The wording for Magical Secrets is a little odd, and may mean you's miss out on the high level spells through Secrets even going that route, as the level of spell you can learn through it could be read such that it keys off your Bard level ("must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table") even if you have higher-level slots through multiclassing and could thus technically cast them.


Synergies:

As a Sorcadin fan you already know what Paladins bring, so no need to go over that here. Heavy armor, Smites, Auras with enough Paladin levels, couple levels of Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity depending on Paladin levels.

VB gets Extra Attack, so you don't need to give up full casting to hit 2-3 times per round, or spend Sorcery Points to Twin Booming Blade.

Valor Bards get a nifty ability at 14 that lets them make a bonus-action weapon attack after casting a Bard spell or cantrip, so if you're a VB and take for instance Booming Blade as a Magical Secret, you can Booming Blade, Smite on the weapon attack that's part of it, then follow up with another weapon attack and a Smite as a bonus action.

Combat Inspiration can be pre-cast and can add to AC or damage. The damage is often the worst use of it, but adding it to AC against a single attack as a poor-man's Shield spell is good. Unlike Cutting Words, it can't be used by the bard themselves, though, only by party members.

Lore Bards get Cutting Words, which combos phenomenally well with grappling or Shield Master knockdowns. Additional Magical Secrets lets you learn (at least) 3rd-level spells like Circle of Power (a great addition to Paladin auras), Spirit Guardians (persistent AoE damage is good for a melee gish), Counterspell (between that and Paladin auras, spellcasters will have a hard time—Jack of All Trades applies to the check for Counterspell, too), Elemental Weapon (great for a melee gish), Aura of Vitality (best heal in the game out of combat), and other nifty selections. Cutting Words is also good for a gish to avoid one hit.

Expertise makes for good skill boosts, especially if playing a "face" character, and if applied to Athletics on a Str build, pretty much means you win grapple or Shield Master checks. Pair with a Lore Bard's cutting words from Lore and it's ridiculous. Lore Bard's level 14 feature, Peerless Skill, is also a potent use of an Inspiration die to help succeed a skill check.

Lore Bards get extra skill proficiencies, which is useful.

Countercharm is rarely useful, due to the Action cost, but can occasionally be handy. If coupled with six levels in Paladin for the Aura, party members won't be Charmed for long.

Song of Rest is a decent-ish healing boost to short rests, often sparing a party member at least one Hit Die.

The Bard spell list's big advantage over the Sorcerer spell list is in healing—including Greater Restoration and Raise Dead—and being able to pick up some extra Paladin spells like Elemental Weapon (or with more Bard levels, up to the highest-level Paladin spells before a pure Paladin gets them). Sorcadin deals far more damage and actually has better buffing ability, but the Palabard can remove status effects the Sorcadin can't and raise the dead. Bards also get more Spells Known, so they can afford to pick up some great utility spells the Sorcadin doesn't really have any room for.

EDIT: 11/9 is probably too much Paladin for a Palabard. At that point you may as well stick with Paladin, I think, but that's just me. Switching to Sorcerer at that point would also have some good synergies since Improved Divine Smite would stack with Twinned Booming Blade. Paladin 2/Valor 18, Paladin 6/Lore 14, or Ancients Pally 7/ Lore 13 are better breakpoints for Bard synergies.

[agnos]

EDIT: 11/9 is probably too much Paladin for a Palabard. At that point you may as well stick with Paladin, I think, but that's just me. Switching to Sorcerer at that point would also have some good synergies since Improved Divine Smite would stack with Twinned Booming Blade. Paladin 2/Valor 18, Paladin 6/Lore 14, or Ancients Pally 7/ Lore 13 are better breakpoints for Bard synergies.
I'd add Pally 6-7/Bard 10-11/Sorc 3-4. It gives the various benefits of Sorceror Metamagic and Shield, gives you 1-2 Magical Secrets, Extra Attack, and 5th-6th level spells. You're pretty much a gish, but have a wide range of control. It's not that the Magical Secrets at 14 is weak (weaker than at every other level comparatively) but that getting to burn low level spells for quickening Circle of Power or other strong buffs before attacking is huge. IIRC you can even twin haste. I prefer Subtle spell but if your DM is lenient on free hands then it's less necessary. The real downside is the few available feats.

[solidork]

It doesn't count for much, but I recently played a Glamour Bard 8/Ancients Paladin 3 in a one shot and was the MVP. Literally everyone was a spell caster (3 people knew Major Image, 4 people knew Dimension Door) and we wound up fighting powerful demons with magic resistance. Channel Divinity+Smites carried the day.

[JAL_1138]

I'd add Pally 6-7/Bard 10-11/Sorc 3-4. It gives the various benefits of Sorceror Metamagic and Shield, gives you 1-2 Magical Secrets, Extra Attack, and 5th-6th level spells. You're pretty much a gish, but have a wide range of control. It's not that the Magical Secrets at 14 is weak (weaker than at every other level comparatively) but that getting to burn low level spells for quickening Circle of Power or other strong buffs before attacking is huge. IIRC you can even twin haste. I prefer Subtle spell but if your DM is lenient on free hands then it's less necessary. The real downside is the few available feats.

That would also net you a lot of extra cantrips, for a ranged option better than just chucking javelins (which a Palabard sorely lacks unless they take a feat for it or spend a Magical Secret). Definitely has some benefits, even aside from metamagic.

The big issue I see with going that route is ASIs--Paladin 6 gets one, Bard 4 and 8 get one, but Sorc 3 gets none, and Sorc 4 would have you get your 4th ASI/feat at 20 instead of 18. Not a problem if you rolled great stats, could be a little painful if you're using point-buy. Not just the lack of feats, but the delay as well.

[Corran]

Ok, I had what I think is a cool idea, and since it relates with this thread I thought I should mention it here and hopefully get some feedback on it.

How about, a paladin 3 (oathbreaker)/ bard (valor) 17?

Dreadful aspect is fantastic, and even more fantastic for gishes with a small martial dip, since:
1) Such builds are more likely to prioritize charisma over strength due to high level spellcasting, so dreadful aspect will have a better chance to stick.
2) Dreadful aspect makes up for the potential reduced melee survivability due to the small martial dip (seriously, it is a fantastic power).

So, the plan is simple. Take shield master. With expertise from the bard, and with the enemies affected by dreadful aspect having disadvantage on their skill (athletcis/ acrobatics) checks, you will have a very good chance to shove targets prone. That means advantage for you and for any other melee allies, but also, it means that the enemies affected by dreadful aspect, will have a very difficult time getting out of the dreadful aspect radius (of 30 feet) to even attempt a save.

Extra points if you are using a spell like spirit guardians or sth.

Well, the bad news is that it requires 2 feats to come online (warcaster and shield master), and that translates to at least 7 character levels (oathbreaker 3/ bard 4) assuming being a variant human..... so it will be some time before you manage to max charisma (at character level 15, oathbreaker3/bard12, at that again assuming variant human).

Hmmmm, now that I think of it it might be easier to pull off with a singleclass oathbreaker.

Yeah, I started typing before I thought this through.... (I was excited, sue me! :smalltongue:)
Still, any opinions on it? Mostly meaning, any additional weak points I didnt take into account?
(going back to the drawing board to see how this plays out for a single class oathbreaker.... - no expertise in athletics, but no need to pick up warcaster... hmmmm....)