How to merge souls (or, How to create the Silver Flame)

[Clistenes]

Do you have any idea what kind of spell, ritual, psionic power or similar shenanigans could be used to merge/fuse several souls into one, in order to create a Silver Flame style entity?

I'm thinking of something like this: The God of Justice/Light/Protection...etc., is dead for good. His worshippers think the Universe is screwed without him, so they try to create a replacement: They fuse the souls of 10,000 deceased Paladins, 10,000 Clerics and 1,000 Couatls with 10,000 Lantern Archons, 1,000 Hound Archons, 1,000 Justice Archons, 100 Trumpet Achons and 100 Astral Devas, and stuff the gelstat inside the Saint Half-Celestial Gold Great Wyrm Paladin 20 cohort/proxy of the late god.

Regardless of it being a good idea or not... how could you do that?

Psionic Fusion has a short duration. Maybe Miracle could be used to make it permanent? Or use Astral Seed cheese?

I guess you could make the Celestials, Ghost/Spirit/Sacred Watcher Paladins and Clerics use all Channeling and a version of Malevolence to merge with the same creature.

Or you could use Polymorph Any Object to change all those into Phoenixes, Simurghs, Lammassus, Shedus, Kirins and Unicorns, and use Duhlarking Animerge, that old Forgotten Realms spell that merged two Magical Beasts into one.

Or some mix of all those: Like you use Fusion to merge four creatures into two creatures, PaO those two gestalt creatures into two Phoenixes, and then cast Duhlarkin Animerge to permanently fuse those two Phoenixes into a single entity...

Or you could just research a 9th level spell that merges two willing souls.

Or you could use Miracle to slowly merge the souls two at a time...

So, how would you do it?

[Waker]

That really doesn't sound like the kind of thing that you'd cast a spell for. Its definitely a story device, big old ritual with a lot of praying and self-sacrifice.

[Clistenes]

That really doesn't sound like the kind of thing that you'd cast a spell for. Its definitely a story device, big old ritual with a lot of praying and self-sacrifice.

But, if you wanted to use existing rules, how would you do it?

[Gildedragon]

Epic spell
Transform, Contact, possibly Life?

[mabriss lethe]

Yeah, I think the only rules that even come close to working would be Epic Spellcasting. Beyond that, you're going to have to simply hand wave it as a plot device.

[Clistenes]

Mmmm... I hoped there was some ritual written somewhere...

[Jowgen]

There is little material on how to "work" souls. Capturing souls in the first place is largely the domain of things like Thinaun (CW), Demiliches, a couple of items/effects from BoVD and the obvious spells. Beyond that...

While providing 0 details on creation, Dungeonscape does have stats for dungeon walls made out of souls.

Binders' Soul Binding class feature, by fluff, results in two souls occupying one body. Similar situations can arise from Fiendish Possessions or Channeling Celestials.

The text of the Balor's Sword of Soul Stealing (A&E) makes reference to Balors knowing rituals that allow them to use captured souls for "for various vile purposes".

However, none of this vague fluff stuff has anything to do with "fusing" souls for any given purpose.

In terms of creating deities in this context, the closest thing I happen to know is that the Lich Queen's Beloved adventure in Dungeon 100 centeres on said Queen using "thousands" of Wish spells to siphon the divine spark of a dead God to try and ascend herself. Spit-balling totally rule-void fluff, I suppose you could use the BoVD souls as power concept to fuel something similar?

[MHCD]

There is little material on how to "work" souls. Capturing souls in the first place is largely the domain of things like Thinaun (CW), Demiliches, a couple of items/effects from BoVD and the obvious spells. Beyond that...

While providing 0 details on creation, Dungeonscape does have stats for dungeon walls made out of souls.

Binders' Soul Binding class feature, by fluff, results in two souls occupying one body. Similar situations can arise from Fiendish Possessions or Channeling Celestials.

The text of the Balor's Sword of Soul Stealing (A&E) makes reference to Balors knowing rituals that allow them to use captured souls for "for various vile purposes".

However, none of this vague fluff stuff has anything to do with "fusing" souls for any given purpose.

In terms of creating deities in this context, the closest thing I happen to know is that the Lich Queen's Beloved adventure in Dungeon 100 centeres on said Queen using "thousands" of Wish spells to siphon the divine spark of a dead God to try and ascend herself. Spit-balling totally rule-void fluff, I suppose you could use the BoVD souls as power concept to fuel something similar?

C'mon, Jowgen, isn't there some way to do this by RAW using voidstones and a talisman of the disc?

[Prime32]

Figure out some way to turn everyone into animals or vermin, temporarily reduce their Int scores to 2 or lower, then have someone with the Dark Speech feat combine them into a hivemind?

[The_Jette]

But, if you wanted to use existing rules, how would you do it?

Just for confirmation, you do realize that what you're asking about is a way of creating a God, right? If there was a ritual written into a book somewhere that could potentially be used to fuse souls together in order to create an amalgam God of light/benevolence/good/etc then some optimizer out there would have figured out a way to include that in Pun Pun's build, already, by enslaving an outer plane of positive energy and forcing all the souls to fuse with him one by one until he was literally a god. The creation of a deity is 100% plot, and 0% mechanical.

Good luck, though. I'm really interested in how this turns out.

[FreddyNoNose]

But, if you wanted to use existing rules, how would you do it?

This is more of a detail of the setting you are playing in. If your universe allows such a thing then there is a process which allows this to happen. It is up to you as the DM.

[Jowgen]

C'mon, Jowgen, isn't there some way to do this by RAW using voidstones and a talisman of the disc?

Well, if you performed some large scale redemption on a gigantic airship grown out of rare magical plants... :smallconfused:

[Gildedragon]

Just for confirmation, you do realize that what you're asking about is a way of creating a God, right? If there was a ritual written into a book somewhere that could potentially be used to fuse souls together in order to create an amalgam God of light/benevolence/good/etc then some optimizer out there would have figured out a way to include that in Pun Pun's build, already, by enslaving an outer plane of positive energy and forcing all the souls to fuse with him one by one until he was literally a god. The creation of a deity is 100% plot, and 0% mechanical.

Good luck, though. I'm really interested in how this turns out.

Ice Assassin?
The Silver Ice Flame!

[noob]

Get a body part of the god which was killed then cast ice assassin.
Now you have a god and he can just use alter reality to create the new abomination you wanted to create.
Oh wait was not the plan to build the new abomination just for replacing the old god?
Never-mind now you god one copy of the god of good and one unholy holy abomination under your control and you will be the master of the universe in no time.

[Clistenes]

Just for confirmation, you do realize that what you're asking about is a way of creating a God, right? If there was a ritual written into a book somewhere that could potentially be used to fuse souls together in order to create an amalgam God of light/benevolence/good/etc then some optimizer out there would have figured out a way to include that in Pun Pun's build, already, by enslaving an outer plane of positive energy and forcing all the souls to fuse with him one by one until he was literally a god. The creation of a deity is 100% plot, and 0% mechanical.

Good luck, though. I'm really interested in how this turns out.

Oh, I'm sure this would blow up spectacularly if actually done...

I'm more interested in the group trying to do it... but they need a somewhat realistic plan rather than being mere delusional nutsos.

[icefractal]

Fusion could combine them, but it wouldn't create a god - the only things cumulatively added are hit points and power points, all the rest are gestalt-style, so fusing 10,000 lantern archons just gives you a lantern archon with a lot of HP.

I think you're not only in homebrew territory mechanically, but also fluff-wise; I can't think of any existing sources that describe doing something like this.

If you're going with "followers determine divine rank" (it varies by setting), then you could:
1) Have the Gold Wyrm proxy take that Epic dragon PrC that gives DvR 0.
2) Get everybody to start worshipping said dragon, giving it more DvR.

But that sounds less interesting than forging a god out of thousands of souls.

[noob]

Oh, I'm sure this would blow up spectacularly if actually done...

I'm more interested in the group trying to do it... but they need a somewhat realistic plan rather than being mere delusional nutsos.

How about grouping up all those people and hoping it works the same way undead grouped up gain extra turn resistance?
Unless gods gets power better than T1 guys(which needs to nerf all the high end level 0 to 9 spells(seriously at all the levels there is op spells)) you are still going to have better interest in having 50 level 20 T1 casters rather than one god.

[Clistenes]

Fusion could combine them, but it wouldn't create a god - the only things cumulatively added are hit points and power points, all the rest are gestalt-style, so fusing 10,000 lantern archons just gives you a lantern archon with a lot of HP.

I think you're not only in homebrew territory mechanically, but also fluff-wise; I can't think of any existing sources that describe doing something like this.

Mmmm... If it were me, I would rule that its ray attack would deal 10,000d6 damage, and that you would have to roll a DC 12 Will save against each of the 10,000 Auras of Menace, effectively meaning that you got no save. But yes, that homebrew...

[Hamste]

Mmmm... If it were me, I would rule that its ray attack would deal 10,000d6 damage, and that you would have to roll a DC 12 Will save against each of the 10,000 Auras of Menace, effectively meaning that you got no save. But yes, that homebrew...

Not totally true, there is a few ways to not fail save on a 1 if I remember correctly so 10 000 saves may not be the same as getting none at all.

[unseenmage]

Oh! Oh!

Thinaun Steel is a special material
Special materials are explicitly not magic items and can be Animate Objects-ed.

Sooooo, get yourself a LOT of thinaun steel objects, each containing a soul, Animate Objects/Minor Servitor every one, then use Fusion to combine them.

Alternatively, use Programmed Amnesia or similar to effectively download a lot of minds into one mind then combine all the souls as detailed above with the combined mind.

Gives one a starting place at least.


Edit: According to Power of Faerun it just takes a couple of Diplomacy checks and a sermon or two to convert someone to your religion.

Jack that roll up and use the Epic Level Handbook's explicitly non-epic Fanatic npc disposition to get all the above minds/souls believing in the same about-to-exist-deity for good measure.

[icefractal]

Or along similar lines:
1) Trap all the souls you want to combine in Thinaun objects.
2) Merge the objects into one golem-like body (Fabricate might be all you need?)
3) Make the body into a Thinaun golem.
4) Fusion the golem with the dragon.
5) Make that permanent, either with Astral Seed cheese or just say it's something Miracle can do as a "greater effect".

So technically, all that would get you is a dragon with a ton of souls inside it, but still stat-wise the same. However, at that point you could reasonably say the huge number of souls has some kind of effect, either inherently or once some other steps are done to 'activate' them.

[unseenmage]

PAO could even turn the amalgamated soul construct into a "silver flame" I'd bet.

[Clistenes]

Figure out some way to turn everyone into animals or vermin, temporarily reduce their Int scores to 2 or lower, then have someone with the Dark Speech feat combine them into a hivemind?

How would that work? And afterwards, would the gestalt hivemind creature have a decent INT score? Or at least, could it be controled?

If you could create a Celestial Hivemind you could make it use Channeling to empower a host...

EDIT: Mmmm... I have read about the Dark Speech feat already... It could work, you could order the Hive Mind to use Channeling...

There is the problem of the lack of permanent control, and the Vile thing...

EDIT II: Maybe you don't need to control the Celestial Hivemind... maybe it can be your god... a Celestial being with INT 500, CHA 500 and 483 Sorcerer caster levels sounds godlike to me...

You would still need to find a non-evil way to create it...

[Prime32]

If the hivemind counts as a single creature (the rules are vague), then

Turn everyone into Fine animals/vermin
Temporarily lower their Int scores to 2 or lower.
Find a good-aligned creature with the evil subtype (such as a redeemed fiend); have it use Dark Speech to create a hivemind.
Cast flesh to stone on the hivemind.
Cast stone shape to combine the statues together into a Medium object.
Cast polymorph any object to turn the merged statues into a petrified version of your god.
Cast stone to flesh.

[Clistenes]

If the hivemind counts as a single creature (the rules are vague), then

Turn everyone into Fine animals/vermin
Temporarily lower their Int scores to 2 or lower.
Find a good-aligned creature with the evil subtype (such as a redeemed fiend); have it use Dark Speech to create a hivemind.
Cast flesh to stone on the hivemind.
Cast stone shape to combine the statues together into a Medium object.
Cast polymorph any object to turn the merged statues into a petrified version of your god.
Cast stone to flesh.


Taking into account that Dark Speech works by provoking feelings of hate, fear...etc., on the targets, I think that would be a very bad idea...

But the hivemind thing would be ideal, if you could find a non-evil way to create a hivemind of Lantern Archons...

[Madara]

Taking into account that Dark Speech works by provoking feelings of hate, fear...etc., on the targets, I think that would be a very bad idea...

But the hivemind thing would be ideal, if you could find a non-evil way to create a hivemind of Lantern Archons...

I mean, at this point if you're willing to accept the RAW and just refluff.....it's better than accepting the fluff and making up RAW?

[Gildedragon]

Taking into account that Dark Speech works by provoking feelings of hate, fear...etc., on the targets, I think that would be a very bad idea...

But the hivemind thing would be ideal, if you could find a non-evil way to create a hivemind of Lantern Archons...

OR redeeming the hive mind
OR Helmet of Opposite Alignment

Note PAOing the hive mind into a corpse rat swarm or ephemeral swarm; then hauntshifting into a Pilar of Fire?
Or is there a way to make undead count as their original type?
Or make undead into deathless?

[Jowgen]

But the hivemind thing would be ideal, if you could find a non-evil way to create a hivemind of Lantern Archons...

One could apply the Axiomatic creature template for Linked Minds (Ex), which is close. First you'd have to get rid of their Outsider type, then somehow get one of them a Familiar as well as a means to repeatedly cast Planar Familiar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) on the others.


OR redeeming the hive mind

Okay, idea for a protocol to be used in a sufficiently secure Redeemery:

Repeatedly cast Create Lantern Archon to produce lots of Lantern Archons
Have each of them use a minor Schema of Aspect of the Wolf to make them count as animals
Drink an Exlir of Dark Speech and meld them all into a Hive-mind (making sure that only 1 of them is able to act). If need be, use lots of Reduce Animal spells to pack them closely enough together.
Take the free Lantern and subject it to extensive redemption and/or religious conversion methods
For giggels, cast Planar Familiar on one of the Lanterns for Anxiomatic, so now you are a Linked Mind with the Hive Mind

Does this get us close enough to where we want to be here?

[Gildedragon]

One could apply the Axiomatic creature template for Linked Minds (Ex), which is close. First you'd have to get rid of their Outsider type, then somehow get one of them a Familiar as well as a means to repeatedly cast Planar Familiar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) on the others.



Okay, idea for a protocol to be used in a sufficiently secure Redeemery:

Repeatedly cast Create Lantern Archon to produce lots of Lantern Archons
Have each of them use a minor Schema of Aspect of the Wolf to make them count as animals
Drink an Exlir of Dark Speech and meld them all into a Hive-mind (making sure that only 1 of them is able to act). If need be, use lots of Reduce Animal spells to pack them closely enough together.
Take the free Lantern and subject it to extensive redemption and/or religious conversion methods
For giggels, cast Planar Familiar on one of the Lanterns for Anxiomatic, so now you are a Linked Mind with the Hive Mind

Does this get us close enough to where we want to be here?

Aspect of the Wolf works great on ghosts. Link the ghosts into a hivemind, haunt shift them, and you got a sort of undestructible godbeing.
If they're deathless at the start even better.
It ought result in something quite akin to the silver flame

[Jowgen]

Aspect of the Wolf works great on ghosts. Link the ghosts into a hivemind, haunt shift them, and you got a sort of undestructible godbeing.

I purely like the Lantern Archon approach because they also are straight up souls you can make yourself, a "big mass of radiance" has a nice godly feel to it, and the idea of merging Celestials with the Dark Speech adds a nice Good-Evil-fusion vibe.

Now the ideal thing would be if you could temporarily make them count as undead for haunt-shifting...

[MHCD]

Well, if you performed some large scale redemption on a gigantic airship grown out of rare magical plants... :smallconfused:

Well when you figure out what you're trying to do, just remember to take 10.


I purely like the Lantern Archon approach because they also are straight up souls you can make yourself, a "big mass of radiance" has a nice godly feel to it, and the idea of merging Celestials with the Dark Speech adds a nice Good-Evil-fusion vibe.

Now the ideal thing would be if you could temporarily make them count as undead for haunt-shifting...

One could research a "Mass Lesser Undead Transformation" spell, based on Lesser Holy/Infernal Transformation from SpC.

[Clistenes]

Mmmm... what about this?:

Create or recruit the Lantern Archons. Indoctrinate them.

Research a spell, "Aspect of the Bee", that gives you the Vermin type, shrinks you to Fine size, gives you bee wings, reduces you Int to 1 and allows you create a Swarm. Make sure this spell can be made Permanent when you research it.

Create an item that allows to cast Brain Spider at will.

Create an item that allows to cast Dominate Monster at will.

Create a 40 HD Sacred Guardian Prismatic Golem, making sure it can be easily permanently possessed and controlled by a powerful Good Outsider, psionic Fusion style...

Grab a group or 50 Lantern Archons, have each of them cast several times the spell Brain Spider, so each of them can always read the mind of the other 49, and make it permanent.

Make each of them cast Dominate Monster on each of the others. Cast Dominate Monster on each of them yourself too.

Cast "Aspect of the Bee" on them. Maybe that will be enough to kickstart the change into a Hivemind. If not, have them try several activites in concert. Maybe use a Miracle to push the change.

When you have create nine Hiveminds that way, have them cast Brain Spider on the other eight Hiveminds, and make it permanent, have them cast Dominate Monster on each other, and try to induce the merging of the Hiveminds, using a Miracle is necessary.

When you have created nine second level Hiveminds (450 members each), repeat to create a third level Hivemind (4050 members each).

Repeat to create a fourth level Hivemind that includes all Lantern Archons.

Once you have created the super-powerful Hivemind, offer it the 40 HD Sacred Guardian Prismatic Golem as its body.

You will need a ton of xp for this. The devoted believers will be the target of Microcosm, Elation, Good Hope and Distilled Joy on a daily basis to get Ambrosia from them. It will be hard, but they will surely accept the sacrifice for the Greater Good!