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Mongobear
2017-05-17, 10:22 PM
Last session of our monthly campaign that's been going on for a little over 2 years now had quite a predicament last month, and this weekend we are going to see the fallout/results of it through.

Background Info:

We are a 6 man party

Lvl 12 Human Devotion Paladin with Mage Killer and a buffed Version of Lightbringer from whatever Module it is from. (Same stats, but it ALWAYS deals the bonus Radiant damage, not just against Fiends/Undead)

Lvl 12 Human BM Fighter with Mounted Combatant (Trying to emulate the 1e Cavalier class, which is what he was when this campaign originally started in 1st edition in 2015)

Lvl 12 Goliath Berserker Barbarian with GWM Only notable gear is a +1 Vicious Greataxe and a +2 Longsword

Lvl 11 Drow Shadow Monk with Mobile and a +2 Quarterstaff and Boots of Speed

Lvl 11 Gnome Arcane Trickster Rogue with a "Frostbrand" Light Crossbow and Winged Boots

Lvl 11 Bladesinger 2/Champion 9 High Elf with a +1 Rapier and a few other random utility items.

We are currently leading a small army of about 80 men, dwarves, and elves through a remote countryside to the homeland of the BM Fighter, where his father rules. The kingdom is under siege by Orcs and other random evil humanoids, we are hoping to make it in time, if not before, the final push against the castle walls which according to battle plans we've found, will occur within the next week.

On the evening of the last day we traveled, we made camp, and set up watches as usual. About 3-4 hours into the night, our lookout, the Devotion Paladin noticed a light, likely a campfire a few miles down the valley from us, so he woke up the Drow Monk for his turn to be on watch, told him about the Light, then used Find Steed and rode off to investigate. About 30 minutes passed and he didn't return, so the Drow woke the BM Fighter, who was on next watch, told him what was happening, and activated his Boots of Speed, sprinting off down towards the light to see what was up with the Paladin. Shortly after, and not feeling right about something, the Fighter wakes the rest of us and explains the situation, which we decide as a group to go investigate as well, since both the Monk and Paladin havent returned for close to an hour.

Not that any of us knew this ahead of time, but the light was a campfire lit by a gang of about 12 Goblins. When the Paladin showed up, he rode right into their campsite, announced his presence, dismounted and demanded to know what they were doing here. Only he and the DM know what was actually said beyond this point, but the ending point was that as he turned around to remount, a group of high level Drow revealed themselves and had about a dozen swords and spells aimed at the Paladin's throat. He surrendered without a fight, and was locked up or knocked out, or otherwise turned into a prisoner.

The Drow, several minutes later, sneaks through the tall grass around the camp site, sees the goblins, and signs of a horse having travelled through recently, but no Paladin. As he maneuvers around the clearing a bit, he bumps into something. Only he and the DM know what transpired exactly, but suffice it to say, the Drow ambush party knocked him out with their poison and added one more prisoner to their group.

Those of us remaining at camp get impatient and head towards the light, but we alert a few of the higher ranking soldiers and stuff following us of the situation. As we get closer, one of us has some ability to see much further in the distance, don't remember what exactly, and they note the Goblins and the high grass surrounding their campsite. We decide that the Fighter, acting as an emissary since it's literally his families' land will ride in an try to communicate with the goblins, which has actually worked in the past, he has convinced a few groups to follow him and join our forces. The others in our 4 man group, will sneak up the the edge of the clearing under the grass, and be ready to attack/defend against whatever happens.

During the talks with the goblins, I am notified in secret that I smell something strange in the grass near me. Not having any idea what, and not wanting to risk revealing myself I ignore it. Cue Drow Ambush. The 'strange smell' was a super high level (like 15 levels of BM Fighter on a Drow, "Super Elite Drow House Guard with a Name Tag"). Whom is the source of the smell that was sneaking up on me Invisibly and unloads into my ass with a full Nova round, Action Surge, Super Dice, everything. I was reduced from full HP, about 180 or so, to 60ish from his attacks and the Harm spell.

BM Fighter
Literally every Drow
Me
Rogue
Bladesinger

From across the Clearing, a similarly buffed Drow Priestess throws a Harm spell at me, luckily I save against, but it still hurts. 6 Drow Mages pop out of Invisibility above the Rogue and launch a mixture of Lightning Bolts and Scorching Rays at him, but he luckily gets missed a lot and only takes like 20-30 damage or so. The Bladesinger gets ambushed by a pair of "Dark Bladesingers" who are basically a better built version of him, one of which is the Drow that murdered his father from his backstory, and he gets knocked out from their knockout poison in the surprise round.

Another priestess a few regular Elite House Guards, and a few random derp Drow attack the BM Fighter, but he had Alert so luckily not a lot of them hit him since he wasn't surprised. Also, he dropped a Darkness globe on himself, from some random item he found, but somehow a bunch of the Drow have "Goggles of Devil's Sight" but he still had a pretty high AC and managed to only take a small bit of damage. I wasn't surprised, because of Feral Instinct, but I was prone in the grass and the Super Elite Name Tag guy really put a hurting on me, on top of the Harm spell. My turn, I used a magical item the DM made which let's me Paralyze one creature a day in fear until the end of my next turn as an Action, which I use on Name Tag, then dive across the battlefield into the Darkness.

Round 2, BM Fighter charges the closest Priestess of Lolth and puts a hurting on her, then Action Surges and does it again. Most of the Drow turn their attention to him, but between high AC, Indomitable, and a few random resistance granting items, he barely gets scratched. The Rogue flies away really fast and hides in the grass over the hill. The Bladesinger bleeds a bit. Name Tag Drow wobbles a bit and pees a little. Suddenly from around the back of the camp, a dozen more Drow Soldiers appear from the grass, and draw weapons, looking to enter the fight. We would find out in the weeks since that these are the result of two Major Image spells, but our characters don't know that yet.

And this is where we ended the night as it got really late.

In the weeks since, almost everyone of the players has raised some sort of argument about this fight being WAY over-tuned, even for a Deadly fight. If I calculated the CRs of the custom enemies correctly, this fight is worth approximately 37000 XP, our Deadly Threshold is something like 19000 xp.

The two 'prisoners' have basically said they're done with the current game since they died, but one is being let to reroll one of our army members if we manage to survive the nights events. The DM blames us for 1) splitting the party and 2) not taking any of the NPCs in the army along, which we had no reason to. Splitting up isnt a fault of the entire group, just the first two people. He has said "You will be fine, Im sure a bunch of the NPCs will be along shortly to save you. And besides, there is help about to join the fight." Which basically means this fight was intentionally over-tuned and he scripted a Deus Ex Machina to occur.

The Fighter and I basically give zero ****s, and fully intend to fight to the death, the rogue we don't know, and the unconcious/captured people won't be there, because of work. So it is 3 of us, one of which really hurt, the other running away, and the 3rd injured but still pretty good to survive these guys. Hopefully, on my turn, I will obliterate the Name Tag Drow, GWM + Brutal Crit vs a Paralyzed target is something like 9d12+78 damage if I hit all 3 attacks, unless he has an extra 100 random NPC hp, that should kill him. If so, I can dive back into the Darkness, chug a few Supreme Healing pots and come back out roughly in fighting form. Also, ignore Frenzy Exhaustion, our DM houseruled that away because everyone at the table thought it was horrible, so I can re-enter Frenzy after healing up easily.

Are we screwed? Is there any tactic or method that we can utilize to survive this, or should we just do oour best and let ourselves be Deus Ex'd?

Kane0
2017-05-17, 10:54 PM
Y'know, seems like you're doing pretty good as is. If anything the higher op you get the more likely it is the DM will pull this kind of thing to 'keep up' (goggles of Devil sight? Dunno what loot is like in your game but then again you are level 12).
How experienced is the DM? Everyone makes mistakes, plus trying to fathom what a party of PCs will do is only one step short of divining a winning lottery number.

The important thing is to be constructive. Note the red flags and have a chat with your DM, give him some pointers if you can instead of just having a go at how badly everything went. What exactly went wrong varies from table to table (and system to system), but nothing will improve without good communication.

Mongobear
2017-05-17, 11:22 PM
Y'know, seems like you're doing pretty good as is. If anything the higher op you get the more likely it is the DM will pull this kind of thing to 'keep up' (goggles of Devil sight? Dunno what loot is like in your game but then again you are level 12).

We are at a point that a few good or bad rolls for either side could totally change the outcome from TPK to "omg, I can't believe we won." I don't like my Barbarians' chances since he doesnt resist any of the magical damage from the casters, but he should be ok against the Melee and Archer guys. This is the first time I have ever been below 100 HP since getting to the hp range im at now, let alone having been brought down to ~60 hp in one round.

And the random "Gotchya!!" stuff like Goggles of Devil's Sight, and random custom magic items that melt when their owner dies is getting old. We haven't gotten any real loot other than a single item here and there for Quest reasons since level 7 or 8, which was a similarly stacked fight against us, although it was 4 sided, with everyone killing everyone. And when we raise this point, the DM counters that "we have more items than characters of your level would start with."

Yeah, but those characters haven't been adventuring and saving the world for 2 years irl.

Honestly, the loot is kind of a mixed bag. A few of us have a ton of items, and a few still have what they started with when they joined the game at like level 8ish? Some of use with a ton of loot dont have anything above Rare, and a few have an item they've carried over from the 1e to 5e transition that is Very Rare.


How experienced is the DM? Everyone makes mistakes, plus trying to fathom what a party of PCs will do is only one step short of divining a winning lottery number.

I joined the group around 5th level, after they transitioned to 5e from 1st, but afaik, the DM is pretty experienced. This is his first 5e game, but he ran 1e for 3 or 4 years previously.

I don't fault any mistakes if they are something like a mathematical error, or reading something wrong, but scripting Deus Ex Machina, and just throwing a double Deadly fight at us even if we went in at full strength or with NPC back-up seems pretty horrible.


The important thing is to be constructive. Note the red flags and have a chat with your DM, give him some pointers if you can instead of just having a go at how badly everything went. What exactly went wrong varies from table to table (and system to system), but nothing will improve without good communication.

We've tried to be constructive. We asked how the custom Drow were statted out, did he calculate CR appropriately, are you sure you did the Encounter math right, how did none of us get any check what-so-ever to notice any of the Invisible/Hidden Drow until it was too late, and pretty much got a "Yes, it's fine, don't worry about it, I couldn't possibly have messed the math up." response.

And then they would disappear for 2-3 weeks and ignore all questions raised since then. I don't doubt everything is calculated correctly, but just the series of events as it played out at the table, followed by the lack of empathy and dismissive responses about our concerns aren't helping the groups peace of mind.

I dunno, maybe I just needed to vent/rant a bit and get over this whole thing. It just feels really horrible having put 2 years of effort into a relatively decent campaign and seemingly have it all rendered pointless because our DM had a bad day at work and decided to murder us on a whim. Also, this is easily gonna level anyone who survives if we win, if it is ~37000 pre-split, and we only split it 4 ways since the other two never got to fight, that's almost 10k each, and we've been 12/11 for awhile, most of us are already eyeballing that next level.

BB944
2017-05-17, 11:41 PM
The rouge could try to find the Paladin ... maybe the drow?

ThurlRavenscrof
2017-05-18, 12:26 AM
I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing you! But I do want to say that I don't think your DM had any way of knowing you would face his encounter only 1 or 4 at a time. He's in an awkward situation where if he makes encounters balanced for your party, you can bring your army and it's not fun for anyone. As a DM, I would never in a million years assume that my players would approach an ominous light in the woods at night one at a time - especially at level 12. I would assume everyone would discuss the problem, do some recon via sneaking or spells, realize the danger, call in the army, form a plan, and execute it to at least a degree of success. (And if you all had communicated and done some recon, you would have certainly realized you need the army). I think if the party had done so, it could have been an interesting and fun fight. (And with action economy, it would have been hard for you to lose)
I'm not justifying holding out on magic items or any other gotcha moments - I'm only saying that people make unexpected choices in D&D and the DM can't be faulted for that

Hrdven
2017-05-18, 07:47 AM
Hrdven thinks paladin was brave but careless going into enemy camp alone. Hrdevn thinks you should be angry at paladin, not Fate.

Monks always best professionals at escaping when captured. Sure your companion will escape and free up paladin.

solidork
2017-05-18, 10:02 AM
Your monk should be immune to the drow poison because of the level 10 monk ability Purity of Body. It's obviously too late, but going forward keep in mind that even if you know exactly where someone is, you still can't target them with most spells unless you can actually see them. Hiding behind a curtain is a 100% effective counter to Disintegrate, and it's possible that the tall grass could have protected you from the Harm spells.

The paladin going in alone was reckless, but the monk going in alone is totally reasonable. In the wilderness at night, a cautious level 11 shadow monk should be virtually impossible to detect/catch.

I was going to say that if you manage to survive, those goggles are going to be amazing (you have multiple sources of Darkness), but a later comment implied that you won't get to keep them. You guys seem to be assuming that getting captured by these drow essentially means death, but does it?

Mongobear
2017-05-18, 10:11 AM
You guys seem to be assuming that getting captured by these drow essentially means death, but does it?

Maybe not immediate death, but it totally ruins 2+ years of adventuring and our goal to save the kingdom we're travelling to. Our 80ish strong army really isn't much to turn the tide of the battle, there are hundreds of Orcs by the reports we've found, so if we all disappear, they can still make it, but it won't mean as much.

mephnick
2017-05-18, 10:25 AM
Is he designing encounters for the party or the world? If I decide a Drow troop is a certain number of enemies I don't cut the numbers because the players choose to engage it. I play it out, even if that means a TPK.

And don't ask how he statted out his enemies, that's really bad player ettiquette.

Mongobear
2017-05-18, 11:15 AM
Is he designing encounters for the party or the world? If I decide a Drow troop is a certain number of enemies I don't cut the numbers because the players choose to engage it. I play it out, even if that means a TPK.

A bit of both. But a strong tilt towards "the world". There have been numerous time that we have encountered fights way beyond our means, but engaged anyways, not knowing that we were outmatched and had something save us at the critical moment.

It got common enough that ourplayers started taking bets on guessing what the Deus Ex would be each session, and often we would get close if not exact matches.

I have no problem running into a Deadly encounter now and then, it's part of the game; but I'd be willing to bet atleast 50% of all fights we've had were atleast Deadly, if not more.


And don't ask how he statted out his enemies, that's really bad player ettiquette.

He has a common issue of not calculating CR right for custom monsters. And we didnt bring it up mid game, usually the next day or some time between sessions. It may be bad etiquette, but so is 'ripping off' the group because you're too lazy to follow the CR tables.

Drakefall
2017-05-18, 12:23 PM
Just roll with it?

The paladin wandered out all alone and obvious so the resultant ambushing of the rest of you isn't unreasonable. You did have a large fighting force at your back, so presumably it wasn't the easiest thing for him to try to make an appropriate enemy squadron to interact with that. You presumably weren't meant to 4 v all of them, but it seems like a logical enough progression in the circumstances. Could the DM have given you more opportunities to be aware of the drow? Maybe? Could he have handled the resultant interactions better? Maybe? But cut him some slack. If there's malice on his part then it'll become readily apparent and you can call me a dumbie head and quit the game, but if he's being bona fide then the game should smooth over and you can all get back to your fun. The "someone's totes coming to save you" implication does raise a bit of concern, but you may as well see it out.

With regards to the captured party members. I'm sure they haven't been spirited miles away into the underdark, and that there could be opportunities for them to escape (esp. the monk), or for the rest of you lot to rescue them at a later stage? Right?

From a pragmatic stand point the BM Fighter's life seems the most important being that he's the leader of your forces, and a fairly politically important guy with the potential to help save a bunch of lives or somesuch, and all. Maybe cover his retreat with a heroic last stand that will allow him time to muster a force to save the survivors and forge forward towards his daddy's kingdom to Save the Day? Wouldn't be the worst way to die.

At least your large, and varied, fighting force available to you guys provides a perfect way to introduce new or temporary (for them captured folks to play whilst they wait to attempt to escape or be rescued) characters.

Re: magic items. 5e's pretty frugal with those things. You actually sound as though you're quite well kitted out magic junk wise for your level, though I can see how there could be some expectation dissonance coming from other editions of D&D.

TL;DR: Assume good faith on the part of the DM for now, and do your best. Maybe focus on keeping figher boy alive? I believe in you!

Ruebin Rybnik
2017-05-18, 01:51 PM
I agree with the fact that as a DM you try to plan for what players will do, but then things go sideways with PC actions. Like the Paladin and Monk investigating strange lights in the night alone. Early game is not to bad, but with lvl 10+ it start to become really difficult to account for everything that could happen.
Plus your campaign sounds interesting and the fact that he has stuck with it for 2 years says he is invest in it just as much as the players. I'm sure this is ( or will be) something that effects the fight when you get back to it.

PS As a leader of an army wouldn't the fighter have some way to signal the troops that there was trouble. Also i doubt a force of any decent size would have only one person on watch. I hope you get back and see a turn for the best. Heck maybe in the scufle the monk or paladin will break free, release the other and join the fray.

Unoriginal
2017-05-18, 03:05 PM
Maybe not immediate death, but it totally ruins 2+ years of adventuring and our goal to save the kingdom we're travelling to. Our 80ish strong army really isn't much to turn the tide of the battle, there are hundreds of Orcs by the reports we've found, so if we all disappear, they can still make it, but it won't mean as much.

Can't your 80+ army free you from the Drow after seeing you're missing?

KorvinStarmast
2017-05-18, 03:13 PM
Your monk should be immune to the drow poison because of the level 10 monk ability Purity of Body. Yeah. DM may have a good reason for that, though.

You guys seem to be assuming that getting captured by these drow essentially means death, but does it? Drow prefer to inflict fate worse than death on people, when they have the luxury of time. :smalleek:

Mongobear
2017-05-18, 03:19 PM
Can't your 80+ army free you from the Drow after seeing you're missing?

The "mysterious light" we saw was a few miles down the valley. It's certainly possible that they could come down and help eventually, but it would take several minutes for them to get there, so if the Drow decide we need to die, the Army will have no say in it.

And any of the important NPC types that we alerted would be a few minutes behind as well, since we got fully equipped to head out before letting them know, so unless they went off without armor, theyre atleast 5 minutes behind us.

Kane0
2017-05-18, 04:53 PM
What bothers me is that the DM is building your enemies like PCs. Thats fine for important NPCs but not everyone is supposed to have class levels like 3.X
Also the Deus Exing and the Rocket Tag and the magic item dissonance and dismissive attitude. But mostly the encounter buliding.
Maybe its just an old-school mentality thing, my father sometimes does similar stuff and often comes across as harsh at the table due to a TSR gaming origin rather than a WOTC one.

Chaosmancer
2017-05-18, 09:43 PM
Here's something i find odd.

You go to investigate a light near your army. You find a goblin camp.

Then Drow ambush you all. 3 seperate times.

If this is a trap, that leads to a few different questions (like how did they know you were there and that you have enough party members that three different magical ambushes would be necessary), but... Where are the Drow staying? Was there no potential to notice their camp? They aren't going to be staying with the goblins (who seem to be completely unimportant to this situation) so, are their tents far away? Are they smaller than the grass? How did they know you all were coming and find you all to set up this ambush.

It just seems very out of the blue to me

Mongobear
2017-05-18, 09:49 PM
Here's something i find odd.

You go to investigate a light near your army. You find a goblin camp.

Then Drow ambush you all. 3 seperate times.

If this is a trap, that leads to a few different questions (like how did they know you were there and that you have enough party members that three different magical ambushes would be necessary), but... Where are the Drow staying? Was there no potential to notice their camp? They aren't going to be staying with the goblins (who seem to be completely unimportant to this situation) so, are their tents far away? Are they smaller than the grass? How did they know you all were coming and find you all to set up this ambush.

It just seems very out of the blue to me

You almost quoted verbatim one of the points we raised about the whole situation.