Lore question: What is the primary source of the Yugoloth's "Heart of Darkness?"

[Ephemeral_Being]

Note: Pretty much all of this is just me explaining my campaign idea. I've only really got the one question in the title. The act of writing helps me to iron out flaws in the plan. That being said, if you've got suggestions I'd LOVE to hear them. The more lore I can fold into my narrative, the better.

What with Asmodeus ascending to god-hood and the Blood War ending in 5e, I thought a great two-part adventure (which I'm going to be running in 3.5, then 5e) would be to safeguard the world from the legions of Hell and the Abyss. Someone must have a plan. Deities were working to continue the Blood War for untold centuries, and if they actually let Asmodeus end it there's GOT to be a solution we haven't heard yet.

Here's the setup. Azuth sees his impending death at the hands of Asmodeus during the Spellplague (as Gods are aware of threats to them or their portfolio), and realizes that once the Spellplague starts it will be vastly more complicated to stop Asmodeus from conquering the Planes. And, as a God of Magic, he's going to be essentially powerless to stop Asmodeus from killing him. So, he has to come up with a solution NOW that can be implemented LATER. We're not allowed to interfere with Azuth's death (because canon), or the ascension of Asmodeus (again, canon), so the only parts that CAN be changed are going to be after the Spellplague. At which point, Azuth will be unable to act. Meaning, he needs champions. Enter the party.

So, I decided that the plan is to convert both Asmodeus and all the demons/devils to Yugoloths (who would then fill the "Crawling City," thereby fulfilling the prophecy in the 3.5 book Manual of the Planes). And, if not, I'm making it the plan for the purposes of this campaign. I'm thinking the Neutrality somehow tames Outsiders. Devils can still make deals and collect souls, but they're unlikely to stage an invasion of the Material Plane. Demons can fight all they like, but they won't have any interest in conquest. It's not like anyone fears Yugoloths the same way they do Demons and Devils. Maybe, it will even weaken Asmodeus enough for Azuth's champions to kill him and extract the Divine Spark, thereby resurrecting Azuth.

If that sounds crazy... it's not as nuts as you might think. There are oblique references to an artifact called the "Heart of Darkness" all over the internet's stock of Yugoloth and Planescape lore, but none of them ever list a primary source. If you (like me) have never heard of it, apparently the Yugoloth's leader (the General of Gehenna) used the HoD to purge Law and Chaos from his people. Thing is, I can't find a reference in any WotC source. I've been digging through book after book, and I'm starting to think there's no mention of it in 3e.

So, to that end, I need a TON more information on what the HoD is, where it is, how to use it... basically, if there's lore I want to see it. I've been working off secondary sources to guess what books they might be referencing, but without a library of 2e books I'm missing a lot of sources. I've seen claims that it's a hundred-foot tall pillar, that it's an artifact which can be worn around the neck, and that it never existed at all. But, lacking any WotC sources, I'm not sure what the truth of it is.

Anyone even know what I'm talking about? 'Cause while I'm good making stuff up, I like to work as much of the existing lore into my stories as I can.

P.S., Has anyone READ these Brimstone Angels novels, by Erin Evans? Are they even canon? She really screwed up my original campaign idea, what with her crappy "random gods you've never heard of un-died and interfered in Faerunian power struggles" storyline. I'm currently just pretending that they don't exist, and forging ahead (mostly because I love this plot).

P.P.S., I plan on using this as a transition to 5e. Basically, the party will be doing the quest to GET the "Heart of Darkness," then go into some sort of stasis, and be woken post-Second Sundering to actually fight Asmodeus. Hence why the lore has to work out. They stop his army with the Heart, then save Azuth.

Post-Second Sundering, they're going to go hunt down the "Staff of Savras," which can be used to extract the Divine Essence of Azuth from Asmodeus, at which point the staff shatters, freeing him (per Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Volo%27s_Guide_to_All_Things_Magical)). They can't go get it BEFORE the Sundering, because it's currently zapping all over the Plane and invisible to gods. BUT, the Spellplague (and, to a lesser extent, the Second Sundering) screwed up the way that all kinds of old magical items work. And, now the Staff can be found (because I say so). It's a decent story, I think, lore-wise. Pretty stoked that it all worked out so well. I ALMOST think this was always the plan, given the sheer number of coincidences I found while writing this up.

[Clistenes]

Uniting all fiends under the Yugoloth banner would be VERY bad for the Multiverse... but maybe the extracted Chaostuff and Lawstuff could become new Outsider species who would start a new War of Chaos/Blood War (which would be bad too, unless they fight it in the Lower Planes only).

[Ephemeral_Being]

Uniting all fiends under the Yugoloth banner would be VERY bad for the Multiverse... but maybe the extracted Chaostuff and Lawstuff could become new Outsider species who would start a new War of Chaos/Blood War (which would be bad too, unless they fight it in the Lower Planes only).

Can you think of another way to stop Asmodeus from just steamrolling everyone? The concept of the Blood War was that it HAD to continue, else the legions of Hell and The Abyss would begin a campaign of conquest. But, now it ends AND they get a full deity as their commander? I would be terrified.

I'm digging through book after book on artifacts and Planescape looking for a way to stop the horde, and not finding anything more promising than the Heart. Even IF you kill Asmodeus, there's still a united army of demons and devils. Something has to be done to them. Maybe if we give them all to someone else to control (this General?), he'll keep them in line. The Yugoloths (from my understanding) work as hired mercenaries for anyone, and can be counted on to hold up their end of the bargain. They aren't Lawful, per-se, but they're on the lawful end of Neutral. So, maybe we make a deal. He gets more soldiers, and agrees to stay out of the Prime.

I admit the plan is... less than perfect. But short of literally going to the new plane of Hell in 5e and killing every demon and devil you can find, there seems to be a lack of good solutions. And, sadly, actual information on the Yugoloths and their ways.

[Telonius]

I'm digging through a few websites. One (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?169458-Planescape-Yugoloths-big-relocation-from-Hades-to-Gehenna-why) I've found:


The material in and especially the timeline of the Lower Planes in Hellbound: The Blood War and material in Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Planes of Conflict and in 3.x bits in Fiendish Codex:I are the most applicable sources...

...

But back to the newly created yugoloths. Eventually during this period the cardinal elements began to spread and merge, mingle, or infect one another. The yugoloths began to become flawed by traces of law or chaos, and so a yugoloth, supposedly the first to achieve Ultroloth status, later known as the General of Gehenna, purged his fellows of Law and Chaos at the instruction of the Baernaloths using an artifact known as the Heart of Darkness. The bits of law and chaos they removed from themselves were forced into the first larvae that had begun to appear on the Waste, and those tainted with law were herded into what would become Baator, and those flawed with chaos were herded into what would become the Abyss.

Hellbound, Faces of Evil, and Planes of Conflict appear to be 2e sources.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I'm digging through a few websites. One (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?169458-Planescape-Yugoloths-big-relocation-from-Hades-to-Gehenna-why) I've found:



Hellbound, Faces of Evil, and Planes of Conflict appear to be 2e sources.

Hellbound is a >200 page book about the Blood War.

k, I'll be back after I finish those, see if I find the answer. I'll post it if I do, in case anyone wants to know.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Hellbound - The Blood War

Information about the Heart

The General created the Heart, described as a "gem" in Faces of Evil
It can be used on a horde, or a single target
Anyone who "champions good" is destroyed upon contact


Information about the Blood War

The war is being fought over "the nature of true evil."
The Yugoloths claim to have started the War
The Baernaloths claim to have deliberately created the Demon/Devil Lords
A God who directly interferes with the Blood War "withers away," method unknown. Proxies are fine.
The Yugoloths work to continue the Blood War
The Yugoloths gave Demons/Devils their ability to teleport via a creature, "Maeldur Et Kavurik." It can be taken away by wiping his memory
Maeldur only speaks an old, dead dialect known only to the Baernaloths


Faces of Evil

Lots of background information on the Yugoloth's society, but it has literally one mention of the Heart. And, knowing my players, they won't even ask about 95% of the material in Faces of Evil.

Planes of Conflict

Many demigods and lesser powers (particularly non-human ones) hang out in Gehenna. Sages theorize that the Yugoloths, while outwardly evil, are doing... something. The General wanders about Gehenna, and is sought out by high-ranking Yugoloths to learn... things. Some survive, some do not. Yugoloths accept memories as currency. No mention of the Heart at all.

Lots of good material for crafting the narrative (particularly for framing why/how Azuth could plan to use the Heart), but I'm still no closer to understanding what the Heart actually IS, and how one uses it. I'm starting to think there isn't a canon answer.

[Telonius]

Yeah, if hours of trolling through Google and digging through 2e sources don't find it, it probably isn't there. I'd say as a last ditch effort, maybe ask Afroakuma; but he hasn't posted in a long time and I think he may have left the forums. (He was generally the expert on Planar matters).

I guess the good news is that you can make it do whatever your plot requires.

[Eldan]

Maeldur et Kavurik, if you want more information, is a Solar who was captured and corrupted by Daru ib Shamiq.

THere is an adventure about Maeldur, Squaring the Circle, which should come with Hellbound. It usually ends with Maeldur being tossed into the styx, which leads to all fiends losing the ability to teleport.

I don't know any forum where Shemeska the Marauder is still active, sadly. That would be the big expert on anything Yugoloth.

[Florian]

There´s nothing to find, because it was never more than a pure retcon devise.
Planescape had some major ongoing storylines that should change how the Great Wheel and all that work, but only Vecna/Faction Wars really made it to the end, changing the Demiplane of Shadow to the full Plane of Shadow we had in 3E and onwards.
The whole Modron March/Blood Wars metaplot, and some sidelines in the major boxed modules where never finished and all we see is bits and pieces coming up from time to time.

Heck, 3E Planes and Bloodwar wasn't´t even the Great Wheel anymore and the changes with 4E/5E mesh even less.

[Ephemeral_Being]

I'd say as a last ditch effort, maybe ask Afroakuma; but he hasn't posted in a long time and I think he may have left the forums. (He was generally the expert on Planar matters).

I was HOPING he'd pop up, but it has been a month since he's posted. Which makes me sad. Dude was stupidly brilliant.


THere is an adventure about Maeldur, Squaring the Circle, which should come with Hellbound. It usually ends with Maeldur being tossed into the styx, which leads to all fiends losing the ability to teleport.

Yup, read it. I was really impressed. 2e did all kinds of awesome adventures. I want to run the Vecna modules, but I can't get a party who's willing to learn all the necessary lore (and commit to three years of planewalking).


Heck, 3E Planes and Bloodwar wasn't´t even the Great Wheel anymore and the changes with 4E/5E mesh even less.

Ugh. I know. I tried reading 4e and 5e sources, and got nowhere. I was (and still am) frustrated that they decided to ruin all the in-progress stories. Dunno who approved 4e. Glad 5e is kinda getting back to what DnD was, but it's not there yet. Hence still running 2e/3.5 hybrid lore stories.

[Florian]

Nah, you don´t want to. I was a Planescape junkie during its heyday and let me tell you, the stuff makes for a better read than actual play material. The shorter modules and stuff from the "planes of"-boxes was manageable, but the longer campaign like Vecna and Modron March? Ceased to be fun, even for experienced players.

But truth be told, I´ve stopped following the whole lore. By now, I really prefer the "Great Wheel" as used for Golarion, as they´ve done away with the whole stupid Blood War and have it a true 2-axis battle L vs C and G vs E. So it´s quite fine to have heaven and hell fight back the abyss together at one time, then duke its against against each other another time.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Nah, you don´t want to. I was a Planescape junkie during its heyday and let me tell you, the stuff makes for a better read than actual play material. The shorter modules and stuff from the "planes of"-boxes was manageable, but the longer campaign like Vecna and Modron March? Ceased to be fun, even for experienced players.

That sucks. I wondered if we were just bad at them, or something. The one time I tried, my players revolted and insisted I stop the campaign.

They DO make for fantastic reading material. It's AMAZING what they did with the Planes. I'm really hoping Planescape: Torment has a decent sale soon, 'cause I want to play an actual game in Planescape, even if it's just the one time.

[Gildedragon]

Can you think of another way to stop Asmodeus from just steamrolling everyone? The concept of the Blood War was that it HAD to continue, else the legions of Hell and The Abyss would begin a campaign of conquest. But, now it ends AND they get a full deity as their commander? I would be terrified.

Thought. If Asmo ends up as a god he ends up on the other side of the pact primeval.
His second rises to lord of the Hells and A just gains a domain there, needing souls of worshipers and not able to get the damned. His face as his second forces him off the throne by invoking that law...

This puts the Hells in Civil War mode as there's a change in upper management.
In the PMP imps collect on debts...

The Abyss takes a bit to react but soon enough surges outwards, running amock through Hades (massive attrition, Yugs suffer casualties). Within the Abyss violent churning infighting erupts as everyone is plotting for glory, power, extraplanar domains... and taking over the domains of demon lords that have gone off to "win" the Blood War
The G and N planes probably unite.
Heck the NEs might race to stop CE from taking over.
Some demon lords might be displeased with the turn of events. Grazzt, for example, had something good going on and suddenly things start falling apart.
There's a layer lord that's a Yuggoloth iirc... The White Queen or Mother or some such.
Heck... The kerfuffle awakens or draws back Zargon
Or leads LN and some LE sorts to waken the elder evil to fight back the abyss.

Nobody really wants the Blood War to end.
Though in all honesty it might as well have ended ages ago. All that's left is a bunch of Glory Hounds on both sides refusing to concede, fighting over bits of nothing.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Thought. If Asmo ends up as a god he ends up on the other side of the pact primeval.
His second rises to lord of the Hells and A just gains a domain there, needing souls of worshipers and not able to get the damned. His face as his second forces him off the throne by invoking that law...

I don't think ascending to godhood breaks the Pact. The goal of the pact was to allow Asmodeus to control Hell without being a God, but I find it VERY hard to believe he'd do something to break the pact (as he'd then lose control of Hell, which is his source of power - he'd have no worshipers, and therefore no power without Hell).



Nobody really wants the Blood War to end.
Though in all honesty it might as well have ended ages ago. All that's left is a bunch of Glory Hounds on both sides refusing to concede, fighting over bits of nothing.

Well, the Blood War actually has a purpose (according to some Yugoloths). The GOAL is to create the truest, strongest incarnation of evil. It's similar to what the Shadows were doing in Babylon 5 (which, if you haven't seen it, go watch it. The show gave this forum its name), building strength through conflict. My theory (which is... not fully substantiated) is that the General of Gehenna purged Law and Chaos from his people, deliberately created both sides, and is waiting for one to win. At which point he'll convert all the Yugoloths to whatever alignment wins, take over the army, and march on the Upper Plains. Asmodeus being a god would screw up his plan, though.

Sadly, the General is pretty poorly defined. Other than knowing that he wanders around Gehenna, created the Heart of Darkness, and rarely talks to his people, there isn't anything else written about him. I'm working on writing him into a sort of Machiavellian leader. You ever heard of the Staff of Savras? It's an artifact that gives incredible powers of divination, but is currently lost (thought to be teleporting randomly across the Planes). Apparently, Gehenna is home to a number of demipowers (of which Savras is one). I'm thinking we pair the two. The General is known to be wandering about Gehenna, for reasons unknown. We have him constantly searching for the Staff, and using it to get visions of the future.

Still working on what to DO with that concept; that's as far as I've gotten. Just, don't assume the Blood War is pointless. Someone was keeping it going.

[Gildedragon]

I don't think ascending to godhood breaks the Pact. The goal of the pact was to allow Asmodeus to control Hell without being a God, but I find it VERY hard to believe he'd do something to break the pact (as he'd then lose control of Hell, which is his source of power - he'd have no worshipers, and therefore no power without Hell).
Pact is between Devils and the Gods of Law
If Asmo becomes a god he ceases to be a Devil.
It might be a lateral move powerwise... But it is a fulfilling of his own ambitions: ie not pure raw power but honors and glories. Being a god for him isn't so much about being strong, but being recognized.


Well, the Blood War actually has a purpose (according to some Yugoloths). The GOAL is to create the truest, strongest incarnation of evil.
The rub there is the "according to some"
Yugoloths are bound to be as deceitful and self serving as any lower plane native.
There's also strong hints that the blood war is just the last bastion of the primeval conflict between Law and Chaos.
Yugoloths' theory might as well be a way to make themselves feel more important than their neighbors.
Or maybe they're right.

Note that I didn't say it was purposeless. For Devils it is a way to test their mettle, train their troops, and advance in the hierarchy. For Demons it is a means to thin the herd, to channel their minions' destructive urges.
Both sides (all three sides actually) benefit from the war.
But for those not directly involved (which might well be the bulk of all three planes) the war is irrelevant: an effective stalemate. Meanwhile fiendish lords scheme with each other regardless of L N or C.
Heck the other planes might also invest in the Blood War being perpetual. Keeps things stable.

But a power vacuum in either domain would cause things to wobble.
Thus why I suggest an Elder Evil to appear.

The leader the devils would look at us having too much fun being a god to care for his pathetic onetime servants. His disloyal lessers that were just waiting to stab him in the back.

[Todd Stewart]

Maeldur et Kavurik, if you want more information, is a Solar who was captured and corrupted by Daru ib Shamiq.

THere is an adventure about Maeldur, Squaring the Circle, which should come with Hellbound. It usually ends with Maeldur being tossed into the styx, which leads to all fiends losing the ability to teleport.

I don't know any forum where Shemeska the Marauder is still active, sadly. That would be the big expert on anything Yugoloth.

Oh I'm still around. I mostly post on the Paizo forums since 99% of my freelancing is for Pathfinder, but I'm still updating my Planescape storyhour on Enworld.

Regarding the Maeldur, I wrote a story regarding Daru ib Shamiq (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cptf0K5Dh6dY3BgPi-g5myYlAO8H0168OnQamKrh03A/edit?usp=sharing) that assumes a more malevolent and active role by him through the events before, during, and after 'Squaring the Circle'. I've since posted all of the baernaloth stories I wrote back in the day on google docs (and just wrote a new one in the past year featuring The Architect (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?483594-Shemeska-s-Baernaloth-Cycle-Lazarius-Ibn-Shartalan-The-Architect-1st-of-The-Demented) which I posted on Enworld).