OOTS #1071 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[pendell]

New comic is up.

Woo hoo, welcome back!

I see Bandanna is still fuming where she's tied up. I wonder if the crew will release her at some point?

Good call on Elan's part, even if she's running in the wrong direction at least that's one round she's not smashing things.

ETA: And I notice that Andi is still tackling these problems as if they were engineering issues. We'll see how that works.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Roderick_BR]

Good ol' Elan. One 5' adjust step forward, one 5' adjust step backwards.

[Goosefarble]

I always love the characters' random Confusion speech in this comic :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

I sense the inevitable end of Andi's captaincy fast approaching.

[snowblizz]

Ah, our glorious heroine returns with brilliant ideas.

I've missed watching people contort themselves jsutifying her every action.

Forum gonna be interesting again. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Yendor]

Elan clearly hasn't being paying attention for the last ten strips.

[King of Nowhere]

there is the link on twitter, but i don't see a notice of new comic on the main page

[Starknight62040]

Awesome comic!!

[nogall]

nice to be back! great one, too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

there is the link on twitter, but i don't see a notice of new comic on the main page

Agreed: the link on the sidebar still points to #1070, and my bookmark also takes me to #1070

GW

[Kancsar]

beautiful opening panel.

[The Pilgrim]

Updates again! Yay

So, any of our criptographers want to decypher the secret message the Giant laid to us behind the female ice gigant's apparent random words?

[ZMiles]

Looks like Andi is improving as a captain and giving sensible, calm orders, which is nice to see. (Although, is there some reason they can't just stop going forwards? There's no other giants around except the one onboard, and moving doesn't seem to be inhibiting her, so maybe it would make sense to stop and let Roy kill it and then figure out where to go from there, or even get more gas into the blimp envelope. Is there maybe some wind that would blow them into a mountain if they tried to stop making lateral motion?)

Elan is continuing to contribute, which is awesome. I'm really liking how he's becoming a useful and powerful part of the team.

[Dr.Zero]

Agreed: the link on the sidebar still points to #1070

GW

Here on the forum.
On the comic, the sidebar link is correct (Order of the Stick 1071 Never Failed Him Before).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here on the forum.
On the comic, the sidebar link is correct (Order of the Stick 1071 Never Failed Him Before).

Good catch. It is therefore probably related to the brief downtime & database crash of last week that brought down the forums.

GW

[AlurenDarkfire]

Why on Earth is everyone on the ship so quick to side with Andi? Bigger problems, or is she really that will liked by the crew?

[Bluepaw]

More redundant drama-ropes, let's hope...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why on Earth is everyone on the ship so quick to side with Andi? Bigger problems, or is she really that will liked by the crew?

Rebelling against the superior officer in the middle of battle is a terrible idea that only an idiot would think of. The crew aren't idiots. They gain nothing by re-treading Andi's actions.

GW

[HandofShadows]

Random has never been bad? Elan must never had a random to hit/saving throw totally fail? :smallwink:

[Saint Jimmy]

Like Grey_Wolf said, I think it's becuase the rest of the crew is intelligent enough to realize that mutiny in as dangerous of a situation as the one they are in would most likely spell certain death with no one to give orders. Just my opinion though.

[Skull the Troll]

Man I really hope that was a dig at a certain politician.....

[Marlowe]

Nice burn Elan, nice burn.

[Yendor]

She's still holding the wrench.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Read the epic "How the Paladin got his Scar" the other day, and now this! Life is getting way better!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Welcome back! And hey Elan, it wasn't a bad thought. Although Suggestion probably would have been better, but hey this is Elan we're talking about.

[Estelindis]

Elan: ready to insert confusion whenever a coherent plan is proposed.

[archon_huskie]

Welcome back! And hey Elan, it wasn't a bad thought. Although Suggestion probably would have been better, but hey this is Elan we're talking about.

Does Elan even have Suggestion?

[dtilque]

Man I really hope that was a dig at a certain politician.....

The Giant doesn't do current politics in the strip. I imagine that's for the same reason discussions of them are banned in the forum.


Does Elan even have Suggestion?

Hasn't cast it yet. Probably doesn't.

[hagnat]

you get one character getting her priorities straight and behaving like a mature giant, and what you get ? loony eyes and peanut butter!

[137beth]

Maybe Elan could cast Minor Confusion on Andi instead. It couldn't be that much worse, right?

[dtilque]

Just realized a (ahem) minor error. The spell is Lesser Confusion, not Minor Confusion.

[knag]

Just a minor note: Elan's 1st level bard spell should be Lesser Confusion.

edit: ninja'd by dtilque! And I even made the same pun! Arrrg!

[gooddragon1]

So firstly, it looks like Roy knocked some sense into her.

Secondly, that testimony is very important /red queen

[JumboWheat01]

Just realized a (ahem) minor error. The spell is Lesser Confusion, not Minor Confusion.

No wonder it didn't work for him. Arcane Magic is very particular on the exact spell you want.

Poor Elan's going to be entirely strapped for spells soon at this rate. He's blowing through them at a pretty good clip.

[SilverCacaobean]

When will Elan learn to quit when he's ahead? :smallbiggrin:

[PH7]

Trial and error? Andromeda still thinks like an engineer. But the Mechane needs a heroic daredevil captain!

[dtilque]

Just a minor note: Elan's 1st level bard spell should be Lesser Confusion.

edit: ninja'd by dtilque! And I even made the same pun! Arrrg!

Just call me the pun-ninja...


No wonder it didn't work for him. Arcane Magic is very particular on the exact spell you want.

The Frost Giant does have swirly eyes, so something happened.


Poor Elan's going to be entirely strapped for spells soon at this rate. He's blowing through them at a pretty good clip.

Based on how well he counted in OoPCs, it's quite possible, in fact, very likely he miscounted how many failures he had while trying to mend the gas bag. It could easily be only half what he said.

[Grytorm]

You know, the Mechane is seems really fast and maneuverable.

[Jay R]

You know, I like quoting from the Order of the Stick.

But it's going to be hard to find a way to work "Compel discerning peanut butter droplet ladders" into a conversation.

[Leisurely]

I am growing attached to this frost giant (she's more likable than Andi anyway.) What is her name?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm glad we still have our brilliant engineer at the helm. Clearly taking over from Bandana was the right decision. :smallannoyed:

Also, funny to see the Frost Giantess trying to make good tactical decisions and then being "pointed" in the right direction by Elan.

[Nightcanon]

You know, I like quoting from the Order of the Stick.

But it's going to be hard to find a way to work "Compel discerning peanut butter droplet ladders" into a conversation.

It's easy enough if writing a PhD thesis on variable speed corn muffins...

[Chei]

The situation on board the ship has really gotten away from Roy, hasn't it. Seems like he hasn't been in control in a good minute. Now that Elan's two minutes of competence are up, Fearless Leader is really going to need to think of something.

[eugee]

Elan clearly hasn't being paying attention for the last ten strips.

I wouldn't be two hard on him, it's been five months.

[2D8HP]

You know, I like quoting from the Order of the Stick.

But it's going to be hard to find a way to work "Compel discerning peanut butter droplet ladders" into a conversation.


True.

Poetry slam?

But I'm already planning to use:

:elan:

"Who would've predicted that acting completely at random could ever turn out bad?

[factotum]

ETA: And I notice that Andi is still tackling these problems as if they were engineering issues.

And apparently Andi isn't even a very good engineer, given that she just said she fixes things via trial and error...

[MadBear]

Has anyone else noticed the new comic disappeared?

[Rogar Demonblud]

And apparently Andi isn't even a very good engineer, given that she just said she fixes things via trial and error...

The fact she thinks percussive maintenance does something beyond break more things marks her as a bad engineer. Julio needs better hiring practices.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Has anyone else noticed the new comic disappeared?

It hasn't; it's just that the forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22007290&postcount=15)'s sidebar has not properly updated.

GW

[Joerg]

Trial and error? Andromeda still thinks like an engineer.
No she doesn't. It rather proves that her job may be engineer, but she's not an engineer, she's a dilettante.

[Sans.]

Major Image? Mirage Arcana?

[Kish]

No she doesn't. It rather proves that her job may be engineer, but she's not an engineer, she's a dilettante.
I'm inclined to say it suggests the true job Julio selected her for is not "engineer," but "antagonist on an episode where I leave the ship in Bandana's hands at some point."

[Mad Humanist]

I'm inclined to say it suggests the true job Julio selected her for is not "engineer," but "antagonist on an episode where I leave the ship in Bandana's hands at some point."

You know in this comic that's actually really plausible. Of course it will probably turn out that Bandana really needed this as part of her career development.

On the other hand the flashback makes it somewhat unlikely.

[TheNecrocomicon]

First off: thanks very much Mr. Burlew! So glad to see things back on track.

I have to wonder how willing or enthusiastic the crew are in their current "support" for Andi if the helmsman is giving her thinly-veiled sarcasm all over the place. And I have a feeling that the frost giant berserker currently charging in the direction of the bridge is going to mess people and stuff up, probably with no lack of fatal results.

Given how much blundering Andi has been doing, both in her idea of "engineering" and her idea of "command", it's absurd that there are still any readers on the character's side. And yet, I guess, people just like to root for the supposed underdog no matter how much of a self-absorbed, delusional a**hole the character is.

[Doug Lampert]

True.

Poetry slam?

But I'm already planning to use:

:elan:

"Who would've predicted that acting completely at random could ever turn out bad?

Of course it's the Giantess that's acting completely at random, and running away from the deadly fighter and occasionally semi-competent high level bard isn't a bad choice at all for her.

Elan just needs to cast Lesser Confusion on himself or Roy so they're actions are totally random. Or maybe on Andi, someone at least nominally on his side anyway.

[kiapet]

To be fair, I think randomly destroying stuff is still better than purposely doing so. At least in this case she's more likely to move to less important stuff/ be redirected

[Kish]

Lesser Confusion only lasts for one round. If she spends that round running toward the more important parts of the ship, it'll be exactly as bad as if she'd chosen to run toward the more important parts of the ship.

[Amarsir]

I notice that the sidebar for the main site links to 1071, but the sidebar from the forums links to 1070. Did the recent downtime unsynch those?

[TheNecrocomicon]

Lesser Confusion only lasts for one round. If she spends that round running toward the more important parts of the ship, it'll be exactly as bad as if she'd chosen to run toward the more important parts of the ship.

She was deliberately chopping off the ropes holding the balloon to the body/hull of the ship. If those go, the ship crashes. I suppose the bridge deck, the big, heavy engine components, and the aft structural towers stand a chance of not being completely broken to pieces by the berserker's axe, whereas the ropes are much softer targets.

Meanwhile, if it comes down to repairs or even stopgap measures, Roy has been able to hold down ropes on the ship with no problem before (must be that Belt of Giant Strength).

And besides, Mr. Burlew doesn't follow the rules of D&D precisely. Maybe he made up "Minor Confusion" as a new spell (kind of like others he has done in the past) so that it would serve the purpose he needs it to serve.

[drazen]

The frost giantess appears to be running directly towards Andi, since Roy and Elan appear to have been fighting at the bow of the ship, rather than the stern: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html

Presumably, the confused giant will smash into things, freeing Bandana and KO'ing Andi, and then they'll deal with it from there.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Presumably, the confused giant will smash into things, freeing Bandana and KO'ing Andi, and then they'll deal with it from there.

Considering how absolutely miserable the battle has been going for the Order so far, my guess is the frost giant will end up killing them both and probably some of the bridge crew, leaving nobody in command, then shake off the Confusion and go back to wrecking the rest of the ship, forcing Roy and Elan to kill her or at least toss her overboard.

[Havelocke]

If they are turning around that will help solve several problems

1) Recover Roy's sword
2) Recover the rest of the team
3) Recover the direction of the plot...get to the Dwarven lands!

[Kish]

I don't think the direction of the plot will recover until Andi is no longer in a position to give orders.

[SmartAlec]

Ooh boy.

I know I wouldn't want to be on a plane whose captain's approach to piloting is "Ah, it's just trial and error!". :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ooh boy.

I know I wouldn't want to be on a plane whose captain's approach to piloting is "Ah, it's just trial and error!". :smalleek:

To be fair, I'd also not want to be in an airship whose chief engineer's approach to fixing problems is "Ah, it's just trial and error!".

GW

[Keltest]

To be fair, I'd also not want to be in an airship whose chief engineer's approach to fixing problems is "Ah, it's just trial and error!".

GW

To be fair, trial and error is how most things are learned. Unless they are able to go so far above the pass that they can actually get a birds eye view on the whole thing (which they cant), its pretty much they only way they have to explore it. The problems are coming about because she is ignoring the consequences of the "error" part.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan: ready to insert confusion whenever a coherent plan is proposed. Since about strip number 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html)?

Elan's 1st level bard spell should be Lesser ConfusionMore ElanBrand(TM) Confusion, a custom made spell for narrative effect. Bardness.

Trial and error? Andromeda still thinks like an engineer. But the Mechane needs a heroic daredevil captain! Agreed. Message for Elan: it is time to stand up and be counted. *For those about to Bard, we salute you!*


Compel discerning peanut butter droplet laddersAs a lifelong peanut butter addict, I heartily endorse this confusion and confuse it with endorphins.

What is her name?
BlueBabeBrawler? Not a bad WWE stage name, if the "defeat adventurers" gig goes all sour.

"Who would've predicted that acting completely at random could ever turn out bad? I think that's supposed to be Who would've predicted that acting completely at random could ever turn out bard?

Elan, the walking, talking Wand of Wonder.

And apparently Andi isn't even a very good engineer, given that she just said she fixes things via trial and error... Amen.

[Elkad]

The fact she thinks percussive maintenance does something beyond break more things marks her as a bad engineer. Julio needs better hiring practices.

Percussive maintenance works in lots of cases. Sure, it's a short-term solution, but it IS a solution.
Fuel pumps on Ford trucks and Starters on basically every GM vehicle are 2 of the more blatant examples.

[2xMachina]

Whelp, I hope they don't get lost.

They need to draw a map. A few more backtracks... they'd likely forget it was starboard or port that round.

[KorvinStarmast]

Percussive maintenance works in lots of cases. Sure, it's a short-term solution, but it IS a solution.
Fuel pumps on Ford trucks and Starters on basically every GM vehicle are 2 of the more blatant examples. Heh, the exception to your last example would be my two Saturn sedans: no probs with the starters. As to Fords and pumps, yeah.

[Kantaki]

To be fair, trial and error is how most things are learned. Unless they are able to go so far above the pass that they can actually get a birds eye view on the whole thing (which they cant), its pretty much they only way they have to explore it. The problems are coming about because she is ignoring the consequences of the "error" part.

To be fair, Forget it, I don't like Andromeda and this just makes it worse.
Trial and error navigation- aka crashing the Mechane into stuff until you find a path with no stuff in the way -wouldn't be necessary had our so called „engineer” playing „captain” not choosen to leave the mapped out course to test how soft those big rocks around the ship are.

That she thinks „trial and error” is a viable approach to the repair of vital machinery only makes it worse.
So far she could have claimed to be a good engineer, but not suited for command.
Now it appear a minor miracle that she hasn't blown the Mechane out of the sky. On a quiet, peaceful day with no problems at all.
Currently my working assumption is that the ship kept running on a combination of the will of the story and her subordinates stealthily- if not openly -ignoring her.

[Jay R]

3) Recover the direction of the plot...get to the Dwarven lands!

I have been singularly poor at recognizing the direction of the plot in this strip over the years, and judging by this forum, so has everybody else.

They'll find the plot. I offer no assurance it will be in the dwarven lands where we think it belongs.

[luxgladius]

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

[Clistenes]

Woo hoo, welcome back!

I see Bandanna is still fuming where she's tied up. I wonder if the crew will release her at some point?

Good call on Elan's part, even if she's running in the wrong direction at least that's one round she's not smashing things.

ETA: And I notice that Andi is still tackling these problems as if they were engineering issues. We'll see how that works.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Elan was unlucky, but Minor Confusion was an excellent choice. Confusion spells are deliciously overpowered, and even more in 5th edition...

Let see how well does Andi handle a charging giantess... :smalltongue:


I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

She saw what she wanted to see. She has no idea of how to get out of there, so she's improvising and hoping everything goes well.

Back then she needed to find an easy way out of there, so she deluded herself into thinking she had found one.

[Kantaki]

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

I don't it's a illusion or something like that.
They are flying through a mountainous, snowy area.
In a place like that it can be hard to tell what kind of terrain is ahead of you under the best circumstances. Mountains look like plains, plains look like lakes...
Even someone who knows what they are doing and is familiar with the area can make mistakes.
Andi is neither. She was simply mistaken. That the area isn't mapped out doesn't help either.
Hence why Bandana wanted to stay on the main pass.

[Clistenes]

The fact she thinks percussive maintenance does something beyond break more things marks her as a bad engineer. Julio needs better hiring practices.

Julio probably makes potential recruits pose with the rest of the crew and hires them if they look cool enough. He probably liked Andi's scarf or something...

Didn't the gnomes say the Mechane's engine was a big kludge? Andi probably just moves pieces around at random until the engine starts working again... and it kinda works because you know, magical plot-powered vehicle.

[Chei]

This strip is actually the first time we've been able to see the bottom of the ship since the second crash.

It was not trailing smoke before. I wonder if the crew will see that and realize that the engines are probably in need of serious repair.
If only there was like, a chief engineer keeping tabs on the damage.

But in seriousness, this is a conflict between Andi's previous duties and her current duties. For all people are taking her incredibly inane dialogue as proof she's an incompetent engineer (which, yeah, probably), she is likely still urgently needed below deck.

[factotum]

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

She thought she could see a clear way out of the mountains. She was wrong. This is not a surprise, since Andi has been dead wrong about everything she's done in the last 10 strips or so.

[Sermil]

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

The rift that was supposed to be controlled by Serini's Gate broke free decades ago and has completely swallowed the Dwarven lands. Andi is seeing the other world through it, like Laurin did with the ocean. Turns out Andi just saving the entire crew by turning around; a few inches more and they would have been close enough for the Snarl to reach them. It would have instantly killed every person on the ship.

[Lord Torath]

Percussive maintenance works in lots of cases. Sure, it's a short-term solution, but it IS a solution.
Fuel pumps on Ford trucks and Starters on basically every GM vehicle are 2 of the more blatant examples.My wife's truck had this problem every time* she turned left. She had to jump out and smack the fuel pump with a hammer before continuing her turn.

* "every time"? That's what she told me, but I suspect it was more of "way more often than I wanted".


Heh, the exception to your last example would be my two Saturn sedans: no probs with the starters. As to Fords and pumps, yeah.Weren't Saturns made by Toyota?

[Rogar Demonblud]

What is her name?

We started calling her Frostie a while back. As good a name as anything else until Rich says something.


I have been singularly poor at recognizing the direction of the plot in this strip over the years, and judging by this forum, so has everybody else.

They'll find the plot. I offer no assurance it will be in the dwarven lands where we think it belongs.

Well, if they're going to stop the vampires, they have to go to the Dwarven Lands.

[TeCoolMage]

If this arc ends with Andi and Bandana hugging or something rather than Andi being kicked out of the Mechane, I'm going to be so mad :smallfurious:

[Kish]

I think the chances of that are negligible. That Andi is, for the moment, focused on renewing her efforts to wreck the Mechane rather than taunting the prisoner does not change the fact that she continues to show no actual positive qualities.

[ratfox]

Well, at least there's a chance they'll find the sword... V and Haley must be wondering where they are.

[ti'esar]

"Take us back to where we almost crashed."

"Which time?"

This exchange stole the show for me.

[Clistenes]

If this arc ends with Andi and Bandana hugging or something rather than Andi being kicked out of the Mechane, I'm going to be so mad :smallfurious:

My bet: When Julio comes back, he asks the crew "how many of you are rogues?" (most of the crew raised their hand); and then Julio asks "among the rogues, who has higher Intelligence?" and guy raises his hand again... "Do you have a Wisdom penalty?" "No, captain".

Then Julio says: "Fine. You are the new chief engineer. Next time you rise in level, you will put all you skill ranks in Profession: Engineer". And then he takes that crewman to a short adventure to make him gain enough xp to gain a level...

By the way, I suspect the reason Andi is bad both at her job and at perceiving reality is that she has a huge Wisdom penalty. Like, she has Wisdom 6 or something similar, so even if she, as a level 1 Expert has maximized her ranks in Profession: Engineer, she still has to subtract -2 to her Profession checks.

[ChillerInstinct]

I love that look of dawning realization on Andi's face. Sure, she's still in the deep end of De Nile and it probably will take a bit for the other shoe to drop, but there's a definite crack in her facade there. A sliver of self-awareness of just how badly she's blown it.

Hope you like latrine duty, Andi...

[Jay R]

Well, if they're going to stop the vampires, they have to go to the Dwarven Lands.

Right.

And if they want to get back on the quest, they need to escape from this Miko character who's taking them to Azure City.
And if they want to face Xykon a second time, they need to leave Azure city quickly and head for the desert.
And if they want to meet the Linear Guild again, they need to leave the Empire of Blood and get back to their quest.
And if they want to pick up the plot, they need to go to Kraagor's Tomb, and not stop at an extraneous godsmoot.

I repeat, I have been singularly poor at recognizing the direction of the plot in this strip over the years, and judging by this forum, so has everybody else.

[Basement Cat]

Andi looks nervous. Not so easy being in command, is it traitor?

Welcome back, Giant. I think the site is lurching from activity overload on the part of OotS fans getting their comic fix. :smallsmile:

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

To be fair, working around Scoundrel and Elan probably means percussive maintenance is a viable engineering strategy. Doesn't extend to flying by the seat of your pants, though.

[8BitNinja]

Welcome back Mr. Burlew. Thanks for the new comic

[Ruck]

I sense the inevitable end of Andi's captaincy fast approaching.

Heh, now I'm wondering if Andi dies because a confused frost giant lops off her head.

[Renegade Paladin]

The sidebar link to the comic on the forum page still goes to 1070. The one from the front page displays correctly and goes to the right one, though.

[Darth Paul]

I notice that Andi is still tackling these problems as if they were engineering issues. We'll see how that works.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, if this is how Andi tackles engineering issues, she's also a rotten engineer. "Trial and error" is NOT how you fix a machine, in my experience. That approach implies that you just replace every part at random until you get around to the one that's actually broken. Maybe I'm wrong here, but don't actual engineers know enough about their machines to have a pretty good idea what's wrong before they start working on them?

[Jay R]

Heh, now I'm wondering if Andi dies because a confused frost giant lops off her head.

I doubt it. That would end the subplot without resolving it, and that's not Rich's style.

[Ariko]

I doubt it. That would end the subplot without resolving it, and that's not Rich's style.


It's an ice thought, though. :smallwink:

[JoeyTheNeko]

lol after a not very enjoyable day, the last couple of panels of this comic greatly cheered me up.

[Ruck]

I doubt it. That would end the subplot without resolving it, and that's not Rich's style.

While my preferred resolution is that Bandana and the rest of the crew hold her responsible for mutiny, Andi getting killed because she's at the captain's helm when the frost giant goes over there would still be "as a result of [her] own choices."

[Mandor]

Well, if this is how Andi tackles engineering issues, she's also a rotten engineer. "Trial and error" is NOT how you fix a machine, in my experience. That approach implies that you just replace every part at random until you get around to the one that's actually broken. Maybe I'm wrong here, but don't actual engineers know enough about their machines to have a pretty good idea what's wrong before they start working on them?Ideally, yes. And if not, and time permits, you learn about the machine and read the specs before you screw with it. But in theory, you could have an emergency situation where you need to make a decision with incomplete information and no means to get more information in time. (ex: A Tsunami just wiped out all power to your nuclear reactor cooling machinery at Fukashima, or Hurricane Katrina just exceeded all designed expectations of your levee system and you need to get what pumps you can get working online and prevent the few that are online from suffering failure from water being where it should not be.)

Though, you could just as easily argue that if you find yourself in such a situation, whoever did the original design, already failed miserably as an engineer.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Ah, our glorious heroine returns with brilliant ideas.

I've missed watching people contort themselves jsutifying her every action.

Forum gonna be interesting again. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I may have missed it, or this might be a joke post, but I haven't actually seen anybody defending her actions in a long while.

[gooddragon1]

Heh, now I'm wondering if Andi dies because a confused frost giant lops off her head.

Her career going caput?

[facw]

Weren't Saturns made by Toyota?

Saturns were made by GM.

Scions were made by Toyota.

[danielxcutter]

I feel like I must be missing something obvious. What is Andi talking about in the second panel of the comic? What could she have sworn she saw? She said she thought she could see plains in an earlier strip. Did she just not, or is there some kind of illusion or something going on?

Calling it now: Dragon. A reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaally big f***ing white dragon. Far from the only possible answer, or even the most likely, but not impossible. Because why would the number of people trying to kill them stay the same when it could increase? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html)
Yes, I know that link was a bad example - that's actually the joke. ouo

[yellowrocket]

Calling it now: Dragon. A reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaally big f***ing white dragon. Far from the only possible answer, or even the most likely, but not impossible. Because why would the number of people trying to kill them stay the same when it could increase? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html)
Yes, I know that link was a bad example - that's actually the joke. ouo

I just reread that comic today. This would be the perfect moment to introduce another threat.

[Unoriginal]

To be fair, trial and error is how most things are learned. Unless they are able to go so far above the pass that they can actually get a birds eye view on the whole thing (which they cant), its pretty much they only way they have to explore it. The problems are coming about because she is ignoring the consequences of the "error" part.

Trial and error might be a learning method that works, but I sure hope an engineer doesn't need to learn how to fix the ship while it needs to be fixed right now

I mean, sure, "try stuff and see what works" can be useful, but not in an urgent combat situation.

[warmachine]

Better to stop the giant damaging the ship then attack her in an important area of the ship than her damaging the ship then attack her in an unimportant area of the ship. Randomness is dangerous but it's better than damage happening now.

[M.A.D]

It's good that the ship is turning back, towards where it had just left Haley and Co.

[randomhalfling]

Does anyone else wonder what that smoke means? Or is it because the bizarre orders of the "engineer" are considered aerobatics, and they turned on the smoke to make the figures more visible?

And I feel it is about time for an epic animal sidekick moment.
--rh

[Blatt]

Looks like Andi is improving as a captain and giving sensible, calm orders, which is nice to see. (Although, is there some reason they can't just stop going forwards? There's no other giants around except the one onboard, and moving doesn't seem to be inhibiting her, so maybe it would make sense to stop and let Roy kill it and then figure out where to go from there, or even get more gas into the blimp envelope. Is there maybe some wind that would blow them into a mountain if they tried to stop making lateral motion?)

Elan is continuing to contribute, which is awesome. I'm really liking how he's becoming a useful and powerful part of the team.

I said this, like, strips ago. Just stop already instead of dodging mountains. There's no threat from above or below now they are off the pass. Deal with the giantess; maybe even land, then repair and send for the rest of the party.

[Riftwolf]

Does anyone else wonder what that smoke means? Or is it because the bizarre orders of the "engineer" are considered aerobatics, and they turned on the smoke to make the figures more visible?

And I feel it is about time for an epic animal sidekick moment.
--rh

I think the black smoke coming from beneath the ship suggests that last crash was more than a scuff mark. Maybe the engines are damaged, possibly a bit on fire.

Who's checking those things right now?

[pendell]

Well, if this is how Andi tackles engineering issues, she's also a rotten engineer. "Trial and error" is NOT how you fix a machine, in my experience. That approach implies that you just replace every part at random until you get around to the one that's actually broken. Maybe I'm wrong here, but don't actual engineers know enough about their machines to have a pretty good idea what's wrong before they start working on them?

When you're debugging software, the answer is "no". It can sometimes take many experiments and tests to isolate the problem, which can then be corrected.

I've seen the same thing in the auto shop; While a mechanic may have a reasonably good idea what the issue is, a lot of times it's still a good idea to check the onboard diagnostics before opening 'er up. And in a few cases the symptoms could result from a number of different problems, and it will require some experiments to narrow it down before a proper diagnosis can be made.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

I think the black smoke coming from beneath the ship suggests that last crash was more than a scuff mark. Maybe the engines are damaged, possibly a bit on fire.

Who's checking those things right now?

The engineer I guesOH RIGHT

[Kish]

I doubt it. That would end the subplot without resolving it, and that's not Rich's style.
I think your idea of what the subplot is is different from mine.

Andi is an antagonist, probably a single-arc antagonist. "Her head gets lopped off as she draws breath to continue to declaim how she's right about everything" would be as much of a resolution to the subplot involving her as most antagonists get.

(I don't think that'll happen because Lesser Confusion only lasts one round, but I won't be at all surprised if something causes her to die abruptly any strip now.)

[khadgar567]

you know andy trying to dodge the giantess and giving orders might be to much for her since she dont have daring engineer on her class sheet she might crit fail the important roll( probably acrobatics so the can hit the propellers which some how fix the engine problem) and conveniently exit stage right her from plot
daring engineer basicly daring outlaw for her

[xroads]

You know you're in trouble when compelling your opponent to act chaotically is only a minor net improvement for your team.

Well done & welcome back Rich.

[Rinazina]

I saw some forumites perceiving this turnaround as an opportunity of Roy to get the sword back.

Really? It's kinda the opposite for me. Do trial and error like an errand, when the ship is losing quote on a completely white unmarked terrain, it is the way to loose it for good until something special does not arise (for example: Locate object? nah, too lame. Eugene help? wouldn't be cool? or awake the Returning property?)

I guess this is just the setup of something other, but this can't be the way to fly gently near the sword and recover it :)

Edit: typos and details

[Dr.Zero]

I saw some forumites perceiving this turnaround as an opportunity of Roy to get the sword back.

Really? It's kinda the opposite for me. Do trial and error like an errand, when the ship is losing quote on a completely white unmarked terrain, it is the way to loose it for good until something special does not arise (for example: Locate object? nah, too lame. Eugene help? wouldn't be cool? or awake the Returning property?)

I guess this is just the setup of something other, but this can't be the way to fly gently near the sword and recover it :)

Edit: typos and details

They shouldn't be losing quote anymore, courtesy of the last, working, mending.
I agree that this seems the set for something else instead of managing to retrieve Roy's sword , though.

On the other hand I never correctly foresee the plot twists, so... :smallbiggrin:

Re-edit: thinking twice about it, I suppose that if this was a RL airship they would continue to lose quote as long as they don't compensate dropping something heavy, to compensate for the lost gas.

Tri-edit: substitute "quote" with "height". Thanks to GW for informing me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

quote

You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Context suggest you mean height? Buoyancy? Lift?

GW

[Dr.Zero]

You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Context suggest you mean height? Buoyancy? Lift?

GW

Yes, a false friend. Sigh! :smallredface:

[Psyren]

Well, the good news is that if they turn back, they might find Roy's sword, and possibly even the rest of the Order who are trying to catch up with them.

The bad news is that if that crazy giantess reaches the controls, we may very well end up with a dead Bandana and a downed ship.

Either way, well - I think the Dwarven kingdom is screwed.

[Riftwolf]

The engineer I guesOH RIGHT

Guess for future strips: something happens that makes Andi order full speed ahead again... Only to find the ship can't. Turns out engines don't work on the HP system and the mountain beat the break DC.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Guess for future strips: something happens that makes Andi order full speed ahead again... Only to find the ship can't. Turns out engines don't work on the HP system and the mountain beat the break DC.

More likely: they barely made it pass the last peak. Since then, more air has escaped & several Schroedinger ropes have been cut. I don't think the ship can make it back past the same peak, which means they are trapped in a valley, with a still quite large army of giants in probable pursuit behind them.

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

When you're debugging software, the answer is "no". It can sometimes take many experiments and tests to isolate the problem, which can then be corrected.

I've seen the same thing in the auto shop; While a mechanic may have a reasonably good idea what the issue is, a lot of times it's still a good idea to check the onboard diagnostics before opening 'er up. And in a few cases the symptoms could result from a number of different problems, and it will require some experiments to narrow it down before a proper diagnosis can be made.


None of which is "trial and error". The mechanic or programmer has a good idea of where to find the problem--for instance, if the car is belching blue smoke from the exhaust, there's very little point in checking out the electrical system. "Trial and error" implies that you're so clueless about what the problem might be that you can only fix it by changing random things and seeing if the situation gets worse or better. That works well over the course of millions of years when you're talking evolution, it isn't so hot when you have a problem to solve and you're on the clock.

[Keltest]

None of which is "trial and error". The mechanic or programmer has a good idea of where to find the problem--for instance, if the car is belching blue smoke from the exhaust, there's very little point in checking out the electrical system. "Trial and error" implies that you're so clueless about what the problem might be that you can only fix it by changing random things and seeing if the situation gets worse or better. That works well over the course of millions of years when you're talking evolution, it isn't so hot when you have a problem to solve and you're on the clock.

Trial and error is not synonymous with making random changes. Intelligent and systemic examination of the most likely causes is still trial and error if you don't actually know for sure what the cause is already (most likely through somebody else's trial and error).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Trial and error is not synonymous with making random changes. Intelligent and systemic examination of the most likely causes is still trial and error if you don't actually know for sure what the cause is already (most likely through somebody else's trial and error).

Trial and error is also not synonymous with divide and conquer. An engineer should start with a rough idea of where the problem is, and by carefully controlled trials, isolate the problem so they can perform a punctual fix. That process is not called trial and error - at least not in my specialty.

"Trying to find your way out of a mountain range by randomly picking the route" is a lot closer to trial and error than to any systematic engineering method, although admittedly it is close to the only guaranteed way out of a maze (as long as she sticks to only ever making left/right turns, which we don't know if she will). However, we call that approach "brute force" and in general it is also a terrible algorithm to fix things, taking large amounts of time and being a last resort solution.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

I said this, like, strips ago. Just stop already instead of dodging mountains. There's no threat from above or below now they are off the pass. Deal with the giantess; maybe even land, then repair and send for the rest of the party.

As we learned from the storm at the beginning of this book, STOP equals CRASH. And that was before a significant amount of lift was lost. Plus, the ground is where the frost giants (and allied ogres, winter wolves, etc) are. It wouldn't take them long to find you, especially if they use the white dragons to scout.

[Jay R]

I think your idea of what the subplot is is different from mine.

Very much so. I think we're exploring the meaning of mutiny, loyalty, leadership, and envy.


Andi is an antagonist, probably a single-arc antagonist. "Her head gets lopped off as she draws breath to continue to declaim how she's right about everything" would be as much of a resolution to the subplot involving her as most antagonists get.

(I don't think that'll happen because Lesser Confusion only lasts one round, but I won't be at all surprised if something causes her to die abruptly any strip now.)

And then the issues of mutiny, loyalty, leadership, and envy disappear without a resolution.

[arimareiji]

Fwiw, count me among the "Why are some people so d--- good at finding the worst possible time to start teenage melodrama?" contingent. (For better and worse, a reread seems to show Andi's sulk has been brewing for some time.)


Her career going caput?

I believe that qualifies as capital punishment.


(I don't think that'll happen because Lesser Confusion only lasts one round, but I won't be at all surprised if something causes her to die abruptly any strip now.)

Falling overboard after shouting down someone trying to warn her of Frostja's rush would be more darkly-amusing, but decapitation doesn't seem unlikely. As we've seen, Andi is eager to get a head - but looks more likely to lose it.

[Jay R]

Well, if this is how Andi tackles engineering issues, she's also a rotten engineer. "Trial and error" is NOT how you fix a machine, in my experience. That approach implies that you just replace every part at random until you get around to the one that's actually broken. Maybe I'm wrong here, but don't actual engineers know enough about their machines to have a pretty good idea what's wrong before they start working on them?

It occurs to me that trial and error probably works fine- if you're the engineer on a ship that always arrives in the nick of time.

[Doug Lampert]

Trial and error is not synonymous with making random changes. Intelligent and systemic examination of the most likely causes is still trial and error if you don't actually know for sure what the cause is already (most likely through somebody else's trial and error).
Yep, I just dumped a bunch of debug prints in the code, changed the input slightly, and recompiled. Now I'm running to see what happens.
Drat, it worked. I'll need to change the inputs again to regenerate the error.

But now I know that the last change in inputs fixes it, which is something I didn't know before.

What do you call this if not trial and error? I am literally trying different things and seeing if there is an error message and if so what else the debug prints might tell me.

Yes, there's 30 or so years of experience and a Ph.D. in deciding WHERE to make the changes and put the prints and in interpreting what they mean, but it's still trial and error. Calling it anything else is silly.


Trial and error is also not synonymous with divide and conquer. An engineer should start with a rough idea of where the problem is, and by carefully controlled trials, isolate the problem so they can perform a punctual fix. That process is not called trial and error - at least not in my specialty.

"Trying to find your way out of a mountain range by randomly picking the route" is a lot closer to trial and error than to any systematic engineering method, although admittedly it is close to the only guaranteed way out of a maze (as long as she sticks to only ever making left/right turns, which we don't know if she will). However, we call that approach "brute force" and in general it is also a terrible algorithm to fix things, taking large amounts of time and being a last resort solution.

Grey Wolf


Definition of trial and error: a finding out of the best way to reach a desired result or a correct solution by trying out one or more ways or means and by noting and eliminating errors or causes of failure; also : the trying of one thing or another until something succeeds

Are you sure about your definition? Because the one above matches my usage and Keltest's fine. I can be the best engineer in the world, and if I'm trying things and eliminating possible causes of failure based on the outcome of those tests I am doing EXACTLY what is defined above. Nothing requires that the tests be random or uninformed.

[Kish]

The problem with a "trial and error" approach here is that it's on an airship in flight and in a running battle with frost giants. If Andi finds out through trial and error that the airship actually can't fit around the other side of the mountain, "Drat" will not meet the case.

[Keltest]

The problem with a "trial and error" approach here is that it's on an airship in flight and in a running battle with frost giants. If Andi finds out through trial and error that the airship actually can't fit around the other side of the mountain, "Drat" will not meet the case.

Which is certainly an argument against exploring new territory while under attack and on a time sensitive mission, but not an argument against trial and error as a problem solving method.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which is certainly an argument against exploring new territory while under attack and on a time sensitive mission, but not an argument against trial and error as a problem solving method.

Oh, sure, given infinite time, money & engineers, you could use trial and error to solve all issues. But this is a flying vehicle. Even when I have had to resort to trail and error because no better method could be applied, I didn't do it in the live process. Trial-and-erroring a, say, production program is a recipe for causing more problems than you already have, which is why development & testing environments exist. Which in a vehicle usually involve a dry-dock.

So, I repeat: I would not get on a vehicle I suspected was fixed by trial-and-error, especially not one that is liable to sustain damage in transit.

Grey Wolf

[Anarion]

Well, it's good that they're turning the ship around. Although honestly, seeing the Mechane take the wrong path is incredibly worrying when it's Julio Scoundrel's ship.

[Keltest]

Oh, sure, given infinite time, money & engineers, you could use trial and error to solve all issues. But this is a flying vehicle. Even when I have had to resort to trail and error because no better method could be applied, I didn't do it in the live process. Trial-and-erroring a, say, production program is a recipe for causing more problems than you already have, which is why development & testing environments exist. Which in a vehicle usually involve a dry-dock.

So, I repeat: I would not get on a vehicle I suspected was fixed by trial-and-error, especially not one that is liable to sustain damage in transit.

Grey Wolf

So youre saying that performing diagnostics and then attempting solutions based on the results of those diagnostics in decreasing probability of success is a bad way to go about fixing things?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So youre saying that performing diagnostics and then attempting solutions based on the results of those diagnostics in decreasing probability of success is a bad way to go about fixing things?

No, I'm saying that trial and error is much, much more broad a concept than what you are describing. As per the definition quoted earlier: "the trying of one thing or another until something succeeds" does not imply, or necessitate, diagnosis. It is more likely to make things worse than to fix them, because all things being equal, a change to a mostly functioning process is more likely to make it less effective than more.

ETA: it's like saying "percussive maintenance works... as long as you know precisely what hammer to use and which spot to hit, and never miss". Sure, but that is a sub-sub-subset of all methods of approaching a problem that can be described as "percussive maintenance". Equally, while I could agree that very careful diagnosis, followed by a controlled environment testing and identification and isolation of errors can be described as "trial and error", so can "just remove and replace parts of the engine until the engine stops smoking".

ETA2: and I'll add that, given that in the comic it is being compared to trying all the valleys in an uncharted mountain range to look for an exit, I think it is quite clear that Andi meant it more in my general "just try stuff randomly and blindly until it works" than you "carefully isolate the problem" sense.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

No, I'm saying that trial and error is much, much more broad a concept than what you are describing. As per the definition quoted earlier: "the trying of one thing or another until something succeeds" does not imply, or necessitate, diagnosis. It is more likely to make things worse than to fix them, because all things being equal, a change to a mostly functioning process is more likely to make it less effective than more.

GW

Yes, "trial and error" does technically include "randomly pulling levers and pushing buttons and seeing what happens." No, that is not the entirety of a trial and error approach and that such a thing technically falls under the umbrella term does not mean every other approach under the term is automatically bad.

I do think its pretty telling though that you immediately conclude that Andi meant that she randomly pushes buttons and pulls levers when she performs maintenance though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, "trial and error" does technically include "randomly pulling levers and pushing buttons and seeing what happens." No, that is not the entirety of a trial and error approach and that such a thing technically falls under the umbrella term does not mean every other approach under the term is automatically bad.

I do think its pretty telling though that you immediately conclude that Andi meant that she randomly pushes buttons and pulls levers when she performs maintenance though.

As I edited above: she is suggesting finding an exit from the mountain range by randomly trying every valley they come across, so I think I am in quite solid ground when I say that her definition of trial and error is closer to what I'm using than to yours.

GW

[Keltest]

As I edited above: she is suggesting finding an exit from the mountain range by randomly trying every valley they come across, so I think I am in quite solid ground when I say that her definition of trial and error is closer to what I'm using than to yours.

GW

Except she isn't just randomly picking directions, she is methodically exploring the valley. As someone noted above, that is pretty much the only guaranteed way to navigate a maze who's layout you don't know, so long as you take steps to avoid going the same way multiple times.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except she isn't just randomly picking directions, she is methodically exploring the valley. As someone noted above, that is pretty much the only guaranteed way to navigate a maze who's layout you don't know, so long as you take steps to avoid going the same way multiple times.

No, she is randomly picking directions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html). And that "someone" was me, and I was quite clear we'd need to see her be methodical about the search, which so far she has not been.

It is also a really poor way of escaping a maze in which enemies are behind you, especially if you do know the two ways out, and you decided to NOT go in either direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html).

ETA: also, the right hand rule does not work when there is a possibility of loops in the maze, which suffice to say it is not impossible in a mountain range.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

No, she is randomly picking directions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html). And that "someone" was me, and I was quite clear we'd need to see her be methodical about the search, which so far she has not been.

It is also a really poor way of escaping a maze in which enemies are behind you, especially if you do know the two ways out, and you decided to NOT go in either direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html).

ETA: also, the right hand rule does not work when there is a possibility of loops in the maze, which suffice to say it is not impossible in a mountain range.

Grey Wolf

Theres only been once fork so far. It is completely arbitrary which way they pick first. And she flat out said how she intends to explore this valley.

I get it, you don't like the character. But theres no need to make up bad things that she's done to justify that dislike, theres plenty of poor onscreen decisions without deciding that she is apparently incapable of any sort of problem solving at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Theres only been once fork so far. It is completely arbitrary which way they pick first. And she flat out said how she intends to explore this valley.

I get it, you don't like the character. But theres no need to make up bad things that she's done to justify that dislike, theres plenty of poor onscreen decisions without deciding that she is apparently incapable of any sort of problem solving at all.

So you have decided to handwave away all my arguments based on what you think I feel about the character, and your assumptions of how said feelings influence my reading of the comic.

OK, we are clearly done here.

GW

[Jasdoif]

More likely: they barely made it pass the last peak. Since then, more air has escaped & several Schroedinger ropes have been cut. I don't think the ship can make it back past the same peak, which means they are trapped in a valley, with a still quite large army of giants in probable pursuit behind them.The part that's confusing is that Andi told Mateo to go head back to the fork, not the ridge....but they went over the ridge after the fork. Are they going to try going over the ridge again (despite being unable to gain more altitude than they had the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1067.html)), or does Mateo have a navigational frame of reference to allow bypassing the ridge?

[SaintRidley]

The part that's confusing is that Andi told Mateo to go head back to the fork, not the ridge....but they went over the ridge after the fork. Are they going to try going over the ridge again (despite being unable to gain more altitude than they had the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1067.html)), or does Mateo have a navigational frame of reference to allow bypassing the ridge?

Or is Andi so out of her element and incompetent that she doesn't even understand that what she's asking for is literally impossible?

[Killer Angel]

Well, the good news is that if they turn back, they might find Roy's sword, and possibly even the rest of the Order who are trying to catch up with them.


Yep, I believe we all are hoping they will turn back to the place where the sword has fallen! :smallsmile:

[Dr.Zero]

They shouldn't be losing quote anymore, courtesy of the last, working, mending.
I agree that this seems the set for something else instead of managing to retrieve Roy's sword , though.

On the other hand I never correctly foresee the plot twists, so... :smallbiggrin:

Re-edit: thinking twice about it, I suppose that if this was a RL airship they would continue to lose quote as long as they don't compensate dropping something heavy, to compensate for the lost gas.

Tri-edit: substitute "quote" with "height". Thanks to GW for informing me.


The part that's confusing is that Andi told Mateo to go head back to the fork, not the ridge....but they went over the ridge after the fork. Are they going to try going over the ridge again (despite being unable to gain more altitude than they had the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1067.html)), or does Mateo have a navigational frame of reference to allow bypassing the ridge?

Now, follow me: if they did drop something really heavy, maybe they managed to gain quo... height.
Roy is known to be so strong that he can tightly and firmly, and with no apparent effort, keep a rope during a storm which cannot be tied, and which two normal persons have a hard time to deal with using all their strengths combined.
Yet, Roy must use his greatsword with two hands.
Therefore his greatsword must be terribly heavy.
So, dropping it, maybe the airship gained enough height that, even taking account of the lost gas, they can pass the ridge.

(Of course it is a joke: more likely the conundrum will be solved next page, when we will learn that moving half speed they can maneuver better and pass it in a slightly lower point or that they dropped some sandbags.... or the bodies of their dead comrades. It seems really unlikely that Mateo didn't point out the problem, if a problem exist, when he had no problem to protest about the height of the ridge the first time).

[Unoriginal]

Theres only been once fork so far. It is completely arbitrary which way they pick first. And she flat out said how she intends to explore this valley.

I get it, you don't like the character. But theres no need to make up bad things that she's done to justify that dislike, theres plenty of poor onscreen decisions without deciding that she is apparently incapable of any sort of problem solving at all.

Actually, she only said "well, this road didn't work, let's go take the other one".

Trial and error can work in certain circumstances, and we know that Andi is capable of some problem-solving, but doing trial and error was never her intention in the first place, she just picked directions and either expected them to be good on first try based on her belief anything is better than what Bandana proposes or just did a random choice at the last second and then pat herself on the back for being awesome, without regards for the actual results aside from "I didn't kill everyone with my decision."

What Andi is doing is like trying sword fighting for the first time in a duel to the death thinking she'll win, then call it trial and error when she get wounded.

[8BitNinja]

Completely unrelated to what everyone else is talking about: Are the dark blue markings tattoos or are they born with them?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Completely unrelated to what everyone else is talking about: Are the dark blue markings tattoos or are they born with them?

I'd say they are woad war paint.

GW

[Peelee]

I was going to say tattoos, but from the glimpse of the Frost Giant not in battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html), I'm gonna go with Grey Wolf on this .

[Keltest]

I was going to say tattoos, but from the glimpse of the Frost Giant not in battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html), I'm gonna go with Grey Wolf on this .

Most of the giant clerics lack visible tattoos/paints (with the exception of the one seemingly in charge) so they could be tattoos indicating status or role in society. I'm a little skeptical that they could get any sort of plant based dye or paint in the climate theyre in, though admittedly, they could be traveling through the mountains in wintertime.

[danielxcutter]

Most of the giant clerics lack visible tattoos/paints (with the exception of the one seemingly in charge) so they could be tattoos indicating status or role in society. I'm a little skeptical that they could get any sort of plant based dye or paint in the climate theyre in, though admittedly, they could be traveling through the mountains in wintertime.

There are probably *some* plants, which may also be the reason the paint is reserved for the warriors. Also, not all paints are plant-based. Many blues are extracted from rocks.

[rockdeworld]

Would a good answer to Elan's question be "1 in 4 people"?

[Shining Wrath]

The giantess is not thinking very rationally, although she believes that she is. She's not going to get very far attacking the ship with Roy whaling on her. Also, Elan can cast Minor Confusion again. This will not end well for the Furkini Menace, I'm afraid. It is interesting, though, that her instructions are "Destroy the ship", not "kill them all". Delay is good enough.

"I could have sworn I saw" counts as foreshadowing if ever a shadow has been cast before a cast of characters. Dragon? Roc? Return of Julio, just in the nick of time?

Andi's ability to rationalize that her decisions are good ones is remarkable.

[Shining Wrath]

And apparently Andi isn't even a very good engineer, given that she just said she fixes things via trial and error...


No she doesn't. It rather proves that her job may be engineer, but she's not an engineer, she's a dilettante.


I'm inclined to say it suggests the true job Julio selected her for is not "engineer," but "antagonist on an episode where I leave the ship in Bandana's hands at some point."

To quote the great Stan Kelly-Bootle in The Devil's DP Dictionary

I heurist
You trial and err
He/she flounders


If you are fixing something on a spacecraft in orbit you don't just randomly command the hardware or upload new data and see if it works. That's a good way to lose a spacecraft. Making reasoned choices about the probably source of the error using a fishbone analysis of the possible causes of the observed error signature and eliminating them one by one before issuing any commands is the way to go. I think repairing a flying ship in flight is fairly similar to fixing a flying spacecraft.

Back in the day the best problems were the ones that went away when you put in print statements to help diagnose them, because those usually meant you were overwriting your own code somewhere.

[danielxcutter]

The giantess is not thinking very rationally, although she believes that she is. She's not going to get very far attacking the ship with Roy whaling on her. Also, Elan can cast Minor Confusion again. This will not end well for the Furkini Menace, I'm afraid. It is interesting, though, that her instructions are "Destroy the ship", not "kill them all". Delay is good enough.

"I could have sworn I saw" counts as foreshadowing if ever a shadow has been cast before a cast of characters. Dragon? Roc? Return of Julio, just in the nick of time?

Andi's ability to rationalize that her decisions are good ones is remarkable.

Not going to lie, if this forum had a like button I'd click the one for this post juuust for the words "Furkini Menace". Pretty sure that's the first time since the birth of the universe that someone's said those words.

[factotum]

Back in the day the best problems were the ones that went away when you put in print statements to help diagnose them, because those usually meant you were overwriting your own code somewhere.

Or the compiler you were using had a bug which only manifested with a particular arrangement of code...I recall once trying to work out why some code I'd written ran really slow, and hit on the idea of getting the C compiler to output the intermediate assembler is was generating. When it spat out about 2k of assembly code from 5 lines of C I knew I'd hit a bug somewhere, and just refactoring the code to use a not equal operation rather than an equal one made it work fine.

[Jasdoif]

Or the compiler you were using had a bug which only manifested with a particular arrangement of code...I recall once trying to work out why some code I'd written ran really slow, and hit on the idea of getting the C compiler to output the intermediate assembler is was generating. When it spat out about 2k of assembly code from 5 lines of C I knew I'd hit a bug somewhere, and just refactoring the code to use a not equal operation rather than an equal one made it work fine.My "favorite" is a project where the behind-the-scenes multithreading code inconsistently broke when compiled in debug mode, so there were issues while debugging that never occurred in the production code (which complicated figuring out what the production code was smoking).

[ella ventic]

I read "I could've sworn I saw..." as a reference back to #1067, when Andi made the choice on which way to go around the mountain. Her reason for the path she chose was that she thought she saw plains in the distance.

Which is not to say it can't also be foreshadowing! What would make her see that and then have it turn out to be wrong? I mean, it could just be her own ego, making her sure that she has a solution that doesn't actually exist, but it could also be illusion, or...?

[Yendor]

"I could have sworn I saw" counts as foreshadowing if ever a shadow has been cast before a cast of characters. Dragon? Roc? Return of Julio, just in the nick of time?

Andi's ability to rationalize that her decisions are good ones is remarkable.

I'm pretty sure it just means whatever she thought she saw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1067.html) isn't really there.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah it's just further proof that her thought processes are basically delusions and wishful thinking.

[Sermil]

My "favorite" is a project where the behind-the-scenes multithreading code inconsistently broke when compiled in debug mode, so there were issues while debugging that never occurred in the production code (which complicated figuring out what the production code was smoking).

My 'favorite' was a piece of multithreading code that broke only on single-core machines. Of course, all the developers had multicore machines so they could compile faster...

[Cazero]

Playful natural lighting can make wonderful optical illusions. Mighty glaciers thousands of feet tall could look like flat frozen plains until you're closer.
Wishful thinking only make it worse.

[Quibblicious]

You know, I like quoting from the Order of the Stick.

But it's going to be hard to find a way to work "Compel discerning peanut butter droplet ladders" into a conversation.

I managed to work variable speed corn muffins into conversation; don't sell yourself short.

Q

[Clistenes]

The part that's confusing is that Andi told Mateo to go head back to the fork, not the ridge....but they went over the ridge after the fork. Are they going to try going over the ridge again (despite being unable to gain more altitude than they had the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1067.html)), or does Mateo have a navigational frame of reference to allow bypassing the ridge?

I think they will just either get stranded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive_(1993_film)) due to being unable to gain enough altitude, or they will crash while trying...

[KorvinStarmast]

Weren't Saturns made by Toyota? GM, in Spring Hill, TN.

Or is Andi so out of her element and incompetent that she doesn't even understand that what she's asking for is literally impossible? That's an Andi thing. Just don't argue with her, because she's right ... uh, because. :smalltongue:

... the words "Furkini Menace". Pretty sure that's the first time since the birth of the universe that someone's said those words. Hmm, perhaps it is the name of an edgy all female punk band from the Yukon. It is a great neologism, and ought to be the subject of a t shirt or something.

[8BitNinja]

Not going to lie, if this forum had a like button I'd click the one for this post juuust for the words "Furkini Menace". Pretty sure that's the first time since the birth of the universe that someone's said those words.

Probably because Furkini is a crazy idea. By crazy I mean crazy counterproductive.

You are wearing clothes with fur on it, probably for keeping warm. But you are cutting out the majority of the torso area, thereby keeping the wearer from warmth, but on a hot day, it still feels warm. Therefore making it useless.

[Shining Wrath]

Probably because Furkini is a crazy idea. By crazy I mean crazy counterproductive.

You are wearing clothes with fur on it, probably for keeping warm. But you are cutting out the majority of the torso area, thereby keeping the wearer from warmth, but on a hot day, it still feels warm. Therefore making it useless.

Or, stylish and edgy for a Frost Giantess teetering on the edge of rebellion against the patriarchy! Not that I'd expect a Paladin to understand that.

[pendell]

Meanwhile, I don't think Andi has many more tries she can do in any event; they just cleared that last mountain and they have less magic gas now than they did then. I suspect they won't be able to go back.

Which means the Mechane is stuck in a valley or crater and isn't going anywhere until they can effect repairs, if then, since even if the ship is fully repaired they still need more magic gas.

Here's hoping they have the OOTS equivalent of Road Service. But I suspect this means the party is going to have to journey on without the airship for now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I doubt the Order will be continuing without the Mechane. Both because this would not, by any stretch, be "arriving in the nick of time" and because...while I won't be at all surprised if Andi exits the story (and probably the world of the living) any strip now, I don't think Bandana's role in the story is finished, or will be as anticlimactic as "guess our leaving you to deal with a busted airship is how your stint as captain ends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) after all" when it is.

[Quibblicious]

It's an ice thought, though. :smallwink:

That was cold hearted.

Q

[Monday]

That was cold hearted.

Q
Just couldn't let that one slide, could you?

If you're not careful we'll find ourselves in a frozen pundra again...

[TheNecrocomicon]

Just couldn't let that one slide, could you?

If you're not careful we'll find ourselves in a frozen pundra again...


I get the feeling that things are going to snowball very quickly ...

[danielxcutter]

I get the feeling that things are going to snowball very quickly ...

Ooooh, that gave me the chills....

[Sermil]

Ooooh, that gave me the chills....

The blizzard of puns might derail the thread!

[Knaight]

Well, if this is how Andi tackles engineering issues, she's also a rotten engineer. "Trial and error" is NOT how you fix a machine, in my experience. That approach implies that you just replace every part at random until you get around to the one that's actually broken. Maybe I'm wrong here, but don't actual engineers know enough about their machines to have a pretty good idea what's wrong before they start working on them?
Symptoms have an annoying tendency to have several possible causes, and that makes fixing machines frequently involve multiple checks.


As I edited above: she is suggesting finding an exit from the mountain range by randomly trying every valley they come across, so I think I am in quite solid ground when I say that her definition of trial and error is closer to what I'm using than to yours.

GW
This assumes one definition of trial and error, and that's a really dubious assumption. Every indication we've seen so far indicates that she's good as a ship engineer, starting with how she managed to jury rig the engines to work after the ship took severe damage in a thunderstorm quite possibly caused by a god. That doesn't mean that she can apply anywhere near that level of finesse when applying broad engineering principles to something she knows basically nothing about, and she knows basically nothing about navigation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This assumes one definition of trial and error, and that's a really dubious assumption.
No, it assumes that Rich has one definition in mind when he has her use the words, regardless of how many others there are. And the implication is that her "blindly try things until one works" navigation (rather than at the very least consult a navigation chart) matches her engineering approach.


Every indication we've seen so far indicates that she's good as a ship engineer, starting with how she managed to jury rig the engines to work after the ship took severe damage in a thunderstorm quite possibly caused by a god
The jury rigging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) had to be carefully undone, or risked exploding the ship. That is not an indication of great engineering. It is also not an indication of bad engineering - we simply don't know how dangerous the engine was before she jury-rigged it. Therefore, we don't know that she is as good as you claim: the evidence is mixed at best.

GW

[JumboWheat01]

The blizzard of puns might derail the thread!

I'm actually amazed we've managed to stay this level of on track for a comic thread. Kinda cool, really.

[Keltest]

The jury rigging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) had to be carefully undone, or risked exploding the ship. That is not an indication of great engineering. It is also not an indication of bad engineering - we simply don't know how dangerous the engine was before she jury-rigged it. Therefore, we don't know that she is as good as you claim: the evidence is mixed at best.

GW

The gnomes were obviously lying in order to inflate the price that they got from the Order. Diplomancy joke or not, you cant just talk somebody into speeding up a process that physically needs to be done at a certain pace.

[Unbodied]

The giantess is not thinking very rationally, although she believes that she is. She's not going to get very far attacking the ship with Roy whaling on her. Also, Elan can cast Minor Confusion again. This will not end well for the Furkini Menace, I'm afraid. It is interesting, though, that her instructions are "Destroy the ship", not "kill them all". Delay is good enough.Actually she's going to get very far destroying the ship while Roy is whaling on her. For one thing he's been reduced to a seemingly nonmagical one handed sword that deals way less damage than the Greenhilt legacy sword and that many of his feats don't work on. So its going to take a lot of time for him to take her down with just that considering how much time he needed to put down a weaker giant while using a more powerful weapon. Considering the size difference its unlikely that he can do much to grapple her either.

Meanwhile on her end it will take a lot of time to take down the high level Fighter who has tons of HP but it only takes a couple of rounds to cut all the Ropes on one side of the ship which will effectively mission kill it if not destroy it outright if the other half of the ropes can't support the ship on their own. Not to mention practically all the crew will fall off the ship to their deaths while she can handle the fall and start massacring any surviving crew just to be sure.

The only problem is Elan with his spells but since she didn't know he could do that she couldn't account for it in her plans and even then its still a better plan to focus on the ropes than to try to beat two high level Adventurers before their buddies can reinforce them. And even if he doesn't run out of Spell Slots soon Lesser Confusion is no real solution. It has a decent chance of making her attack either Elan or one of the crewmembers, a decent chance of actually stopping her for one round, a small chance of making her run away which will send her towards the crew whom she can then slaughter and a small chance of having her act normally and keep wrecking the ****. The chance of actually stopping her is comparatively small while the odds of her doing something that's bad news for the Order is pretty much every other option.



The gnomes were obviously lying in order to inflate the price that they got from the Order. Diplomancy joke or not, you cant just talk somebody into speeding up a process that physically needs to be done at a certain pace.You can if the slow pace was "maximum safety" while the sped up pace is "good enough" levels of safety. Also even if they were lying about how long it would take them to fix the jury rigging it doesn't mean that they were lying about the jury rigging being shoddy work that could explode if not fixed properly. Heck they could just be underselling their own skill to jack up the prices more while a normal crew of engineers would be completely stumped by the mess Andi made of the engines.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The gnomes were obviously lying in order to inflate the price that they got from the Order. Diplomancy joke or not, you cant just talk somebody into speeding up a process that physically needs to be done at a certain pace.

No. You can assign the job to more people, put other projects on hold, pay overtime, bring in workers that were supposed to have a day off, etc. There are many ways of speeding up repair processes that do not require to be "obviously lying". Specially since Andi was present at the meeting: she would have called them liars if that was the case, given she is not afraid to insult them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) for other reasons. So either they are not lying, or Andi is not a good engineer to catch them at it.

GW

[Keltest]

No. You can assign the job to more people, put other projects on hold, pay overtime, bring gnomes in their day off, etc. There are many ways of speeding up repair processes that do not require to be "obviously lying". Specially since Andi was present at the meeting: she would have called them liars if that was the case, given she is not afraid to insult them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) for other reasons. So either they are not lying, or Andi is not a good engineer to catch them at it.

GW

Given that those methods would increase the cost rather than decreasing it, we can safely say that none of those methods were employed at Haley's request. Furthermore, the estimates given were allegedly those for a rush job, so it isn't like Bandana didn't think of it.

[8BitNinja]

Or, stylish and edgy for a Frost Giantess teetering on the edge of rebellion against the patriarchy! Not that I'd expect a Paladin to understand that.

Forget that! The enemies don't care how good you look, and their weapons don't either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given that those methods would increase the cost rather than decreasing it, we can safely say that none of those methods were employed.

Untrue. The cost could have increased: what Haley did was sell them publicity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html). Their business gets advertisement, which they don't have to pay for because it is discounted from the total bill. If she talked them into believing the publicity was worth 500.000, that would more than cover the increased speed in any non-lying methods you care to cook up. Otherwise known as the "I am Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite shop" discount.

GW

[The Eye]

Forget that! The enemies don't care how good you look, and their weapons don't either.

She's a frost giant, she doesn't get cold.

[dtilque]

Which means the Mechane is stuck in a valley or crater and isn't going anywhere until they can effect repairs, if then, since even if the ship is fully repaired they still need more magic gas.

One of the crew members is apparently a cleric of Adad the Thunderer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html). I imagine one of his jobs is to conjure in more magic gas when they need it. Not sure what spell that would be.

[Wryte]

I'm inclined to say it suggests the true job Julio selected her for is not "engineer," but "antagonist on an episode where I leave the ship in Bandana's hands at some point."

Honestly, I'm like 15% expecting this arc to end by abruptly smash cutting to the Mechane arriving in Firmament with the whole crew including Bandana congratulating Andi on getting them such a massive speed boost while Andi sheepishly admits she didn't know if she could pull off the disgruntled mutineer bit after only ever having been Bandana's understudy all the times they did it before with Julio.

[Peelee]

Honestly, I'm like 15% expecting this arc to end by abruptly smash cutting to the Mechane arriving in Firmament with the whole crew including Bandana congratulating Andi on getting them such a massive speed boost while Andi sheepishly admits she didn't know if she could pull off the disgruntled mutineer bit after only ever having been Bandana's understudy all the times they did it before with Julio.

That's.... quite the expectation.

[factotum]

That's.... quite the expectation.

Presumably Andi will take off her mask and be revealed as Redcloak's niece at the same time. :smallsmile:

[TheNecrocomicon]

I'm actually amazed we've managed to stay this level of on track for a comic thread. Kinda cool, really.

I see what you did there. I agree, though ... we all need to chill out.

[Shining Wrath]

If we pun too much the thread will be frozen by the admins.

Given that Roy has demonstrated the ability to knock Furkini out with a single punch - quite possibly the Stunning Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist) feat - I'd say that he's also pretty likely to be able to cut her down with a mundane sword.

A bog-standard Frost Giant has 133 HP. Let's give Furkini 266 as an elite warrior. Her AC is likely to be 21 or even less (no chain shirt shown).
A scimitar does 1d6 damage, with a critical hit on 18, 19, 20. At level 15, Roy gets 3 attacks per turn, and with his belt of Giant Strength (STR=26?) his attack bonuses are going to be ~[23, 18, 13].
Attack #1: 95% probable hit, 14.25% probable critical, ~12 HP / round.
Attack #2: 90% probable hit, 13.5% probable critical, ~11 HP / round.
Attack #3: 65% probable hit, 9.75% probable critical, ~8 HP / round.

Total: 31 HP/round. She's dead in 8 rounds if Elan does nothing useful, if she has 2x standard HP, and if she's completely unwounded at this point. More likely she's dead in 5 rounds.

Can she wreck the ship in 5 rounds? Doubtful.

[Quibblicious]

Not going to lie, if this forum had a like button I'd click the one for this post juuust for the words "Furkini Menace". Pretty sure that's the first time since the birth of the universe that someone's said those words.

Just think if that'd been the basis for Star Wars Episode I: The Furkini Menace.

Would've been a better movie...

Q

[Quibblicious]

Probably because Furkini is a crazy idea. By crazy I mean crazy counterproductive.

You are wearing clothes with fur on it, probably for keeping warm. But you are cutting out the majority of the torso area, thereby keeping the wearer from warmth, but on a hot day, it still feels warm. Therefore making it useless.

In warm weather they just need a smaller furkini.

Then it's those that are attracted to the gender and/or species of the furkini wearer who get a little warmer...


Q

[Quibblicious]

The blizzard of puns might derail the thread!

An avalanche of puns... a punalanche!

Q

[Sermil]

Can she wreck the ship in 5 rounds? Doubtful.

That would be plenty. Look at the closeup of the ship in Panel 2 of Comic 1057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html). There are maybe 6 pairs of ropes holding the ship proper to the balloon. She's already proven she can cut at least one pair of ropes per round.

Now, it's true that the 6 pairs is probably just the # on this side of the Mechane; the artwork doesn't show the other 6 on the other side. But Elan has already cut one pair. In 5 rounds, she should have no problem (well, before Elan showed up) cutting the remaining 5 on one side, leaving the deck tilted at a 90 degree angle and dumping all these fool humans on to the ground below. In particular, dumping the people steering on the ground below, leaving the ship to smash into the side of the nearest mountain.

So I think her plan was perfectly reasonable. She could have wrecked the Mechane before Roy killed her -- even assuming she doesn't have any extra tricks up her non-existent sleeve. (Are you sure she doesn't have a healing potion or two tucked away in hammerspace?) At least until Elan showed up, but she had no way of knowing he'd suddenly become competent in a fight.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can she wreck the ship in 5 rounds? Doubtful. She doesn't need to.
Can she damage it enough in 5 rounds? Yes. She's already severed some lines, on a previous round she tore the gas bag (not Roy) with her axe doing serious damage to the ship's airworthiness. In five rounds she can:
Get to the Aft deck.
Execute one Cleave to cut in twain any pirates idiots trying to stop her (as previously done) and then
Three Rounds to
chop off the ship's wheel at its base
Chop up the engine control console
Smash one of the propellers

Wrecked enough in five rounds to render it un-airworthy. (Above and beyond the damage various rocks and Andi's ham fisted helm commands have already inflicted)

[8BitNinja]

An avalanche of puns... a punalanche!

Q

You need to chill out, or Arnold Schwarzenegger might show up with his cool puns.

[Riftwolf]

You need to chill out, or Arnold Schwarzenegger might show up with his cool puns.

I might stick around if that's gonna happen.

[Quibblicious]

You need to chill out, or Arnold Schwarzenegger might show up with his cool puns.

Way to ice the mood. Nice cold shoulder there.

<Schwarzenegger>
It's not a TU-MAH!
</Schwarzenegger>

Q

[The MunchKING]

Not going to lie, if this forum had a like button I'd click the one for this post juuust for the words "Furkini Menace". Pretty sure that's the first time since the birth of the universe that someone's said those words.

Really?? It sounds like some classic old-movie schlock the MST3K crew would be forced to deal with to me.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You haven't watched a lot of Raquel Welch movies, have you? Very potent argument for furkinis.

[Peelee]

You haven't watched a lot of Raquel Welch movies, have you? Very potent argument for furkinis.

I get that reference. Thanks, Shawshank Redemption!

[Rogar Demonblud]

You could also watch the original, if you have nothing else to do. Not saying it's good, but Raquel Welch in a furkini.

[F.Harr]

Who would have thought acting randomly might turn out bad?

Well, anyone who votes regularly for one.

But on the plus side, they're going towards the very powerful artifact sword that's tied to Roy rather than away from it which they were.

[Dr.Zero]

So I was wrong about the plot (not a big news :smallbiggrin:) and they didn't gain any height dropping stuff.

Instead either both Andi and Mateo -the official helsman- could not remember the exact sequence of the obstacles they met or both Andi and Mateo -the official helsman- didn't notice that they lost lift.
Uhm...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Mateo noticed and tried to object. Andi was her usual self and ignored him.

[Dr.Zero]

Mateo noticed and tried to object. Andi was her usual self and ignored him.

Not in strip 1072 obviously. I mean "here" in strip 1071, when he asks where they should go, instead of saying: "We cannot go neither to the first nor to the second because to reach the first we need to pass the second, which was close to make us crash the last time. And since then, we lost a lot more height."

Instead, if he asked that question, clearly his mental map was wrong somewhere. Which is funny, being him the official helmsman.