"Safe" Frenzied Berserker Build

[TheSethGrey]

So, I've always been interested in entering this PRC as soon as possible without a high risk of murdering everyone I know and love, and while this may be old news I think I found a way to enter at 8th level while being mostly"safe" to the party and I'd like your thoughts on it.

Stat Array
STR 15 (+2)
DEX 10 (+0)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 8 (-1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 14 (2)
Race: Human

Level 1 Barbarian
-1st Level Feat- Destructive Rage
-Human Feat- Intimidating Rage
Level 2 Fighter
-Fighter Bonus Feat- Power Attack
Level 3 Fighter
-Fighter Bonus Feat- Cleave
-3rd Level Feat- Iron Will
Level 4 Marshal
-Minor Aura- Force of Will
-Ability Score Increase- +1 Strength
Level 5 Marshal
-Major Aura- Motivate Attack
Level 6 Marshal
-6th Level Feat- Cumbrous Will
-Minor Aura- Watchful Eye
Level 7 Marshal
Level 8 Frenzied Berserker
-Ability Score Increase- +1 Strength

Items assuming a 27,000gp budget:
Cloak of Resistance +2 (9,000gp)

From this build at level 8 our Will Save looks like this:

+4 (Base) +2 (Wisdom) +2 (Iron Will) +6 (Cumbrous Will) +2 (Force of Will) +2 (Cloak of Resistance) = +18 to our Will Save, meaning I will only fail the DC 20 to end my Frenzy on a 1, so sure there is a 5% chance of one round of attacking my friends, but what are the odds of me rolling a 1 twice?

Obviously there's some wholes in this build in regards to other items I can buy, but I wanted to keep things mostly relevant to boosting that Will save as high as possible to get into the PRC as fast as possible which is why I went with Marshal for it's Will Save bonuses even though it's a 3/4th BAB progression. Going 1 Barbarian/5 Fighter would require me to make up the +3 Will I would be losing, and I found that to be too many hoops to jump through with too few feats.

Again, what are your thoughts or criticisms on this build? I know Frenzied Berserker gets some flak for going a bit murder hobo on the party, and I wanted to mitigate that risk as much as possible.

[ahenobarbi]

+4 (Base) +2 (Wisdom) +2 (Iron Will) +6 (Cumbrous Will) +2 (Force of Will) +2 (Cloak of Resistance) = +18 to our Will Save, meaning I will only fail the DC 20 to end my Frenzy on a 1, so sure there is a 5% chance of one round of attacking my friends, but what are the odds of me rolling a 1 twice?

Obviously there's some wholes in this build in regards to other items I can buy, but I wanted to keep things mostly relevant to boosting that Will save as high as possible to get into the PRC as fast as possible which is why I went with Marshal for it's Will Save bonuses even though it's a 3/4th BAB progression. Going 1 Barbarian/5 Fighter would require me to make up the +3 Will I would be losing, and I found that to be too many hoops to jump through with too few feats.

Again, what are your thoughts or criticisms on this build? I know Frenzied Berserker gets some flak for going a bit murder hobo on the party, and I wanted to mitigate that risk as much as possible.


Chances of rolling 1 twice in a row are 1 in 400. But that can change greatly if your character get debuffed (dispell magic, Wis damage, ...). Also since that one round you're attacking your allies (1 chance in 20) is after the combat when everyone might be lower on HP and thus easier to kill. Also there are too many ways to disable characters in frenzy (grease stops you because you can't make balance checks).

[TheSethGrey]

Chances of rolling 1 twice in a row are 1 in 400. But that can change greatly if your character get debuffed (dispell magic, Wis damage, ...). Also since that one round you're attacking your allies (1 chance in 20) is after the combat when everyone might be lower on HP and thus easier to kill. Also there are too many ways to disable characters in frenzy (grease stops you because you can't make balance checks).

First, thanks for the feedback, I do appreciate the opinions of others with more experience then I.

Second, I'm aware of the grease shenanigans, which sorta is mitigated by the ability to drop out of frenzy to make the check. Wis or Cha Damage can hurt my save, though a lot of my bonuses come from feats, and the second I start taking Wis or Cha damage I would be trying to drop Frenzy every round giving me more chances to stop Frenzy before I run out of enemies. The Wis/Cha Damage becomes less of a factor as I level up and can get more Cha/Wis items or more feats to pump my Will higher.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, my goal was to hit that +18 with this build, and I still have the cash to get that bonus higher with more items at this level if needed.

[Inevitability]

A Collar of Perpetual Attendance might work. Whenever you are about to attack any ally, have the servant spread some marbles around your feet to immobilize you. After battle, make it clean them up. Because unseen servants aren't creatures, you don't have to attack them (and if your DM rules you do, that's only better).

It's only 2000 GP, and can be found online here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).

[Waker]

Why not use one of your Fighter bonus feats to get the Resolute ACF (CCha)? As an immediate action, you reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your Will save. The penalty and bonus both last a round, so at best you make your save and snap out of it. At worst, you have an attack penalty, so you might not kill your friends as hard.

[TheSethGrey]

Why not use one of your Fighter bonus feats to get the Resolute ACF (CCha)? As an immediate action, you reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your Will save. The penalty and bonus both last a round, so at best you make your save and snap out of it. At worst, you have an attack penalty, so you might not kill your friends as hard.

While this scales better with level that'd be only a +3 bonus by the time I enter the PRC at 7th level via fighter (Assuming Barbarian 1 / Fighter 5) While the marshal gives me a +6 (Minor Aura, and Base Will Save)

[Waker]

While this scales better with level that'd be only a +3 bonus by the time I enter the PRC at 7th level via fighter (Assuming Barbarian 1 / Fighter 5) While the marshal gives me a +6 (Minor Aura, and Base Will Save)

No, I'm not saying get rid of Marshal. It does it's job quite well. I was suggesting that you either drop a feat, like Cumbrous Will or replace more levels of Marshal with Fighter.

[TheSethGrey]

No, I'm not saying get rid of Marshal. It does it's job quite well. I was suggesting that you either drop a feat, like Cumbrous Will or replace more levels of Marshal with Fighter.

If I dropped Cumbrous Will or Marshal I would lose tons of my bonus to Will, I can't imagine entering the PRC without at least a +18 to Will otherwise I'd be a huge liability to the party, and I'm getting what you're putting out there about Resolute Fighter, but going that route requires me delaying entering the PRC since I won't have meaty Will bonuses anymore. I might not be seeing or understanding properly what you're suggesting though, and I apologize for that.

[daremetoidareyo]

Why not just take righteous wrath from BOED?

[TheSethGrey]

Why not just take righteous wrath from BOED?

Didn't that book never get updated to 3.5 from 3.0? Plus, if memory serves me well it specifies the Rage ability, which RAW wouldn't work on Frenzy.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho you did take the wrong route to the destination.

"IRON HEARTH SURGE" says NO!

IHS solves (almost) everything your Frenzied Berserker could be annoyed in his life and much easier to get. Not to mention that the martial maneuver classes have much more combat power than the silly attempt of pushing your Will save on a prc that is designed to be the pure glasscannon (= you invest in more dmg, nothing else).

And IHS doesn't stop at canceling your "rage", refresh the maneuver and get rid off the aftereffect too.

Really, why bother with Will save (unless you are in a "all enemies are evil mind affecting casters" campaign). You wanna take Frenzied Berserker cause you love to deal and take dmg^^. So any more complex investment is just nuts. IHS is just a single maneuver, easy to get, even a magic item with it (1 use / encounter) would solve 95% of all possible scenarios.


DM: You have birthday, you reached a new age category and are subject to aging pena..
PC: IRON HEART SURGE says NO!

[DEMON]

If I dropped Cumbrous Will or Marshal I would lose tons of my bonus to Will, I can't imagine entering the PRC without at least a +18 to Will otherwise I'd be a huge liability to the party, and I'm getting what you're putting out there about Resolute Fighter, but going that route requires me delaying entering the PRC since I won't have meaty Will bonuses anymore. I might not be seeing or understanding properly what you're suggesting though, and I apologize for that.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, Marshal 3 and 4 is not doing anything for your will save, while Fighter 4, that takes Resolute, would do wonders.

Also, are those stats rolled, or bought? Because Endurance -> Steadfast Determination route would let you focus on CON over WIS, which you'd probably want to do with a build like this.

And while this does not apply to your build, since you're not a Half-Orc, but Channeled Rage could give you a huge bonus to Will save (requires spending a daily use of rage).

[The Viscount]

Didn't that book never get updated to 3.5 from 3.0? Plus, if memory serves me well it specifies the Rage ability, which RAW wouldn't work on Frenzy.

BoED is actually 3.5, though predates CW so couldn't have addressed Frenzy if it wanted to. You might ask your DM to consider it nonetheless in the spirit of the feat.

Alternatively, you can solve it with other things like the right weapon choice. FB makes you attack enemies, but it doesn't make you do so efficiently. You can still choose to do something like use unarmed strikes dealing nonlethal damage.

If this doesn't seem cricket to you, there is one other option: use an intelligent weapon. It will cost some money, and may not provide huge benefits otherwise, but it's a simple one time investment of money. An intelligent weapon counts as a creature, and if you don't have any other weapons you are forced to attack it with unarmed strikes, and as a construct it is immune to nonlethal damage. It will always be the closest creature to you, so your allies are safe.

[TheSethGrey]

Unless I'm missing something obvious, Marshal 3 and 4 is not doing anything for your will save, while Fighter 4, that takes Resolute, would do wonders.

Also, are those stats rolled, or bought? Because Endurance -> Steadfast Determination route would let you focus on CON over WIS, which you'd probably want to do with a build like this.

And while this does not apply to your build, since you're not a Half-Orc, but Channeled Rage could give you a huge bonus to Will save (requires spending a daily use of rage).

Marshal 3 is a +3 and Marshal 4 is a +4, though I can see the value of only taking two levels of Marshal enough to get the Aura bonus to my Will save and then dip back into fighter for that last bonus feat which can be traded in for Resolute a net gain in terms of bonus to Will.

As for the stats, it was a 28pt buy, and I had considered Steadfast Determination, but Ironwill --> Cumbrous Will seemed better since I get a +8 in total. Of course I could be wrong, as I was about taking more levels of Marshal than fighter.



If this doesn't seem cricket to you, there is one other option: use an intelligent weapon. It will cost some money, and may not provide huge benefits otherwise, but it's a simple one time investment of money. An intelligent weapon counts as a creature, and if you don't have any other weapons you are forced to attack it with unarmed strikes, and as a construct it is immune to nonlethal damage. It will always be the closest creature to you, so your allies are safe.

That... Is incredibly clever, I deeply appreciate clever things.

[daremetoidareyo]

Did any one mention the old fashioned "end of combat rolling marbles at the barbarian trick"?

[Waker]

Regardless of the specifics of your build, I just like the mental image accompanying the character concept (that is Barbarian/Marshal). Just character who's incoherent screaming, swearing and grunting inspire greater strength of will in his allies.
"I'd follow that slobbering ragebeast to the ends of the earth."

[DEMON]

Marshal 3 is a +3 and Marshal 4 is a +4, though I can see the value of only taking two levels of Marshal enough to get the Aura bonus to my Will save and then dip back into fighter for that last bonus feat which can be traded in for Resolute a net gain in terms of bonus to Will.

If we're talking about base saves, Marshal 2 is +3 and Marshal 4 is +4, so you only get a +1 for those 2 levels. And since Fighter 3 is +1, your base save would be exactly the same if you go Fighter 4 / Marshal 2 or Marshal 4 / Fighter 2.


Did any one mention the old fashioned "end of combat rolling marbles at the barbarian trick"?

ctrl+f and "marbles" and enter and... yes :smallconfused:

[golem1972]

Bestow Curse? Be afflicted by vertigo whenever attacking an ally, requires a balance check to attack an ally.

Something along those lines?

Last time I played a FB, we were gestalt and I dropped in a few levels of Thayan Knight, and one of the other players played a Red Wizard.

[FEARtheFOOFY]

You could always have your caster in the party use Summon Monster X to summon as many low level creatures for you to beat on until you pass your will save to end frenzy, or get a magic item to do the same.

[Braininthejar2]

I'd probably try making some custom calming item that doesn't let you frenzy until you're ready - like how the collar worked for Jet Li in Unleashed.

[MHCD]

IHS solves (almost) everything your Frenzied Berserker could be annoyed in his life and much easier to get. Not to mention that the martial maneuver classes have much more combat power than the silly attempt of pushing your Will save on a prc that is designed to be the pure glasscannon (= you invest in more dmg, nothing else).

And IHS doesn't stop at canceling your "rage", refresh the maneuver and get rid off the aftereffect too.

Really, why bother with Will save (unless you are in a "all enemies are evil mind affecting casters" campaign). You wanna take Frenzied Berserker cause you love to deal and take dmg^^. So any more complex investment is just nuts. IHS is just a single maneuver, easy to get, even a magic item with it (1 use / encounter) would solve 95% of all possible scenarios.


If ToB is allowed, this is an excellent idea. One or more levels in Warblade will only help your build, especially when replacing levels in Marshal or Fighter taken for the sole purpose of shoring up your will save. Alternatively, some or all of the Warblade levels can be replaced or supplemented with the Martial Study feat and/or a Novice Iron Heart Vest (3000 gold) which would let you use Iron Heart Surge 1/encounter.

If you still want to approach the problem from the will save side (which does have the benefit of shoring up your greatest weakness anyway, in addition to not leaving you screwed if you used IHS for something else and don't have it ready when frenzy ends), I would still replace at least two of the Marshal levels. After Force of Will, Marshal doesn't really give you anything over Cleric (Pride domain for those pesky 1's on your saves, plus another domain and turn undead to fuel devotion/divine feats), Monk (bonus feats! especially if a Chaos Martial Monk is on the table), Swordsage (maneuvers! and other goodies, including AC if you're going with light armor), Paladin (now double-dipping cha to will saves, as well as keeping up BAB - and Paladin of Freedom fits in well with a Barbarian/Marshal), or other base classes or PrCs that offer good will save progressions and better class features than Marshal.

In any case, Iron Will is also available via the Otyugh Hole Location, worth 3000 gold, so there's another potential feat slot opened up for you.

Also, The Viscount's idea of wielding an intelligent weapon is indeed very clever.

[Deox]

Are you going into FB for the Power Attack returns? If so, simply burn your Frenzies at the beginning of the day, away from the party.

Unless you want to use your frenzies in combat?