Is a Rust Monster pack to cruel

[nickl_2000]

As I've posted on here before for help (and gotten a fair amount). I'm running a monster campaign with low resources and no magical weapons/armor yet. When I say low resource, I mean low. No one has ideal weapons or armor for their character, and there is barely enough to go around. There will be 4 PCs playing of various classes, all of which will be level 4.

So here is the question, should I get very mean and throw in a pack of Rust Monsters in the dungeon delving that they will be doing? Make them worry more about their armor and weapons? Or is this just to cruel to them?


As a side note, they have enjoyed the low resources aspect of the game so far.

[N810]

Only if you also give out new/better gear for all the stuff you are going to destroy.
preferably nearby in the same dungeon.

[rbstr]

I mean, I guess if you want them to be even less effective.
Like, at 27hp each one of those things will probably take at least 2 hits. So each monster is good for a -2. Plus up to another -1 per round per monster, depending on bit vs. rusting attack.

What are the PC classes? If it's a bunch of martial-oriented PCs you're going to take quite a lot of effectiveness away.

Like maybe put one/two as part of an encounter? A medium encounter of Rust Monsters for that party is 5 of them. That's a lot of rust. Like everyone takes at least -2 on weapons.

[Yuki Akuma]

**** Rust Monsters.

Just. God. Every DM who's ever used them in a campaign I was in also turned out to be an awful DM in other ways.

[Eisenheim]

two important questions:

1. Will your players enjoy such an encounter, no matter how it goes? If your players are on board with the game concept, they may be happy with a story about losing already scarce resources.

2. Will the players have a chance to avoid or fight the rust monsters while protecting their gear: range weapons, elevation, stealth, etc.? Encounters that unavoidably harm the players, even if they play flawlessly, are rarely fun.

[Sir cryosin]

As I've posted on here before for help (and gotten a fair amount). I'm running a monster campaign with low resources and no magical weapons/armor yet. When I say low resource, I mean low. No one has ideal weapons or armor for their character, and there is barely enough to go around. There will be 4 PCs playing of various classes, all of which will be level 4.

So here is the question, should I get very mean and throw in a pack of Rust Monsters in the dungeon delving that they will be doing? Make them worry more about their armor and weapons? Or is this just to cruel to them?


As a side note, they have enjoyed the low resources aspect of the game so far.

If I was playing a fighter in this game and im wearing a ring mail and a shield making my AC 16 and you throw a rust monster at us I take a few hits. And now my AC is 14 because my shield is gone. Where the rogue, wizard and druid are sitting with a AC of 16 or higher. That's not fun they can get AC pretty easyer then a fighter.

[MrMcBobb]

If your fighter doesn't strip naked and then grapple the rust monster he's doing it wrong.

[FreddyNoNose]

Only if you also give out new/better gear for all the stuff you are going to destroy.
preferably nearby in the same dungeon.

Long ago at an early GenCon I was talking with some people. One DM talked about writing and the "heroes journey". In the journey the hero would suffer lose only to have gain later (could be knowledge/wisdom and not magic items). But the idea is a good one to use. IMO, if the players aren't having to take magic item savings throws you are missing out on a chance to challenge them.

[Beastrolami]

If they like the low resource aspect of the campaign. Yes, force them to make hard choices/use improvised weaponry. That being said, my last campaign i used the variant encumbrance rules, and because there wasn't a strength based character in the party, they had to buy a pack mule. 2 characters quit when the pack mule was attacked, and killed by a couple monsters in the middle of the night. Their excuse was that they hated having to manage their inventory and just wanted to kill stuff. If your players know the type of game this is, and enjoy it, then challenge them... but if they are just going with the flow, and expect some big pay off, they may get disgruntled and quit when they lose what little they have.

[Bloodcloud]

It's not so cruel if you foreshadow it. Have cadavers with obvious signs of armor and weapon but no metal left (leather straps, gambesons, wooden sword hilt or spear haft, wooden shield with the cricling and nails gone). If your player know of rust monster they'll grow super paranoid, and they'll make sure to be ready for it. Give them a chance to sneak on him, circle around, get to advantageous ground and kill it with thrown weapons or lead it in a trap. Don't use it/them as a straight encounter where blows are traded and equipment degraded, make it a puzzle and play it for the dread. That, they will remember. If they charge ahead, well... they'll learn.

[Breashios]

I think you will be fine. As a player I generally take whatever the situation is as the situation, but you might want to think about how the fighter types that rely on metal armor and weapons might react to being dropped down in effectiveness compared to others. If you are confident it will work out, go ahead. If not, just think of other fun challenges to replace this. Good luck.

[nickl_2000]

I mean, I guess if you want them to be even less effective.
Like, at 27hp each one of those things will probably take at least 2 hits. So each monster is good for a -2. Plus up to another -1 per round per monster, depending on bit vs. rusting attack.

What are the PC classes? If it's a bunch of martial-oriented PCs you're going to take quite a lot of effectiveness away.

Like maybe put one/two as part of an encounter? A medium encounter of Rust Monsters for that party is 5 of them. That's a lot of rust. Like everyone takes at least -2 on weapons.
The group consists of a MTG Vampire (homebrewed to be Vampire Kin) Paladin (he rolled God like stats, so he can be either Dex or Str), a Kenku Wizard, a BugBear Barbarian, and a Goblin Ranger.



**** Rust Monsters.

Just. God. Every DM who's ever used them in a campaign I was in also turned out to be an awful DM in other ways.
I make no argument that I'm not an awful DM, as I'm a stand in DM when the regular DM isn't prepared or someone is sick. I'm doing my best though, it's why I'm asking.



two important questions:

1. Will your players enjoy such an encounter, no matter how it goes? If your players are on board with the game concept, they may be happy with a story about losing already scarce resources.

2. Will the players have a chance to avoid or fight the rust monsters while protecting their gear: range weapons, elevation, stealth, etc.? Encounters that unavoidably harm the players, even if they play flawlessly, are rarely fun.

1) I think they would enjoy the possibility of losing weapons. It fits into the style of the campaign that they are playing.
2) Yes, my current thought is that it would be an offshoot area where they can see what they are getting into (even without metagaming). They look into a cave section and see a bunch of rusted out armor and weapons as well as 2 gleaming weapons sitting in a corner. They see the 3-4 monsters in the room and could try sneaking in, range them, or use single use flask items (I believe they will have 2 alchemists fires and a few flask of oil as well). In this case it would be a risk/reward thing, they see something that is clearly special in those 2 weapons but risk losing what they currently have.




If I was playing a fighter in this game and im wearing a ring mail and a shield making my AC 16 and you throw a rust monster at us I take a few hits. And now my AC is 14 because my shield is gone. Where the rogue, wizard and druid are sitting with a AC of 16 or higher. That's not fun they can get AC pretty easyer then a fighter.
Agreed, currently the PCs have on leather armor, a chain shirt, robes, and chain mail, as well as shields. They have several spare sets of chain shirts in their home base, and 4-5 shields as well.
Weapons are all metal if not ranged.

I do have it planned in the dungeon to find axes and a set of Mithril Scale Mail. Among other things they can loot from bodies (basic weapons)

[NecessaryWeevil]

2. Will the players have a chance to avoid or fight the rust monsters while protecting their gear: range weapons, elevation, stealth, etc.? Encounters that unavoidably harm the players, even if they play flawlessly, are rarely fun.

This. Give them a chance to be clever. We encountered a pack of rust monsters in a treasure room; my dex-based barbarian (Who wore only a loincloth) was relieved of his scimitars and sent into the room to search for any non-metallic treasure among the indifferent rust monsters. We felt pretty smart.

[Lombra]

You should give the characters hints on what they'll find in the dungeon, through detailed descriptions (rust on the floor, metal items partially destroyed) adding details as they get close to the monsters and maybe journals of previous explorers. In a low resources setting the important thing is the preparation before the battle, so that everyone can use their gear in the most efficient way. Give them alternatives to find improvised weapons to use against the monsters (or maybe a way to avoid them?) and don't put too many of them, in your setting medium encounters are already pretty hard.

[JellyPooga]

**** Rust Monsters.

Just. God. Every DM who's ever used them in a campaign I was in also turned out to be an awful DM in other ways.

This attitude cost our party Fighter his family greatsword once. His prejudice against Rust Monsters meant that instead of following my plan to placate the beast, avoiding a conflict and the possibility of losing valuable equipment, he went ahead and attacked the thing uneccesarily (and it was uneccesary; we'd actually bypassed the encounter when he decided to go back and fight it). I didn't resist the temptation to rub it in his face when his priceless family heirloom was turned into a pile of red dust.

Run properly, Rust Monsters aren't just a tool in the "awful GM handbook". They're a creature that inspires both fear and creativity. As a player, you don't have to fight every monster; use a little subtlety, misdirection, stealth, sacrifice, distraction...Rust Monsters are simple enough creatures that even a Barbarian should be able to outwit one. As a GM, it's important to remember that Rust Monsters are just creatures looking for their next meal (most of the time) and give your players the opportunity to evade encounters with them or let them stack the odds in their favour somehow by some means, just like any other unaligned beast.

"And suddenly Rust Monsters attack! Roll Initiative" is a good way to have dice thrown at you by your players; don't do this.

A whole pack of Rust Monsters? Sure, go for it. Just make sure you play it right.

[nickl_2000]

Here is how I have it phrased currently. Keep in mind that they have seen no magic weapons at all up until now. It's a side room that is not at all required. I'm thinking a risk/reward situation, not something required



As you approach this room you see leather bindings and sword hilts littering the floor. When you look into the room you see a menagerie of rusty weapons thoughout the room. They are damaged to the point of being completely worthless. However, there is a small dagger and a large axe leaning against the wall, both of which are in impeccable condition.

[Lombra]

Here is how I have it phrased currently. Keep in mind that they have seen no magic weapons at all up until now. It's a side room that is not at all required. I'm thinking a risk/reward situation, not something required



As you approach this room you see leather bindings and sword hilts littering the floor. When you look into the room you see a menagerie of rusty weapons thoughout the room. They are damaged to the point of being completely worthless. However, there is a small dagger and a large axe leaning against the wall, both of which are in impeccable condition.

That's a nice description, have they ever faced rust monsters? The way you worded it should trigger the players'attention and cause at least one of the characters to worry about it, if I were playing some intelligemt character I would ask for a nature/arcana check to understand what's going on. Are rust monsters intelligent enaugh to use shiny weapons as baits for a trap tho? (Unless there's more to it that I'm not aware of)

[RickAllison]

That's a nice description, have they ever faced rust monsters? The way you worded it should trigger the players'attention and cause at least one of the characters to worry about it, if I were playing some intelligemt character I would ask for a nature/arcana check to understand what's going on. Are rust monsters intelligent enaugh to use shiny weapons as baits for a trap tho? (Unless there's more to it that I'm not aware of)

I didn't think they were using the magic weapons as bait. Rather, it seemed like they were inhabiting an area that had had lots of food and they never bothered with the Magic weapons because they couldn't eat them.

[Lombra]

I didn't think they were using the magic weapons as bait. Rather, it seemed like they were inhabiting an area that had had lots of food and they never bothered with the Magic weapons because they couldn't eat them.

Didn't think of magic weapons given the low-resources setting, that's a clever way to hint that they are in fact not mundane!

[nickl_2000]

That's a nice description, have they ever faced rust monsters? The way you worded it should trigger the players'attention and cause at least one of the characters to worry about it, if I were playing some intelligemt character I would ask for a nature/arcana check to understand what's going on. Are rust monsters intelligent enaugh to use shiny weapons as baits for a trap tho? (Unless there's more to it that I'm not aware of)

They have not faced rust monsters before. That being said, they are seasoned D&D players, so they should have a pretty good idea what is going on there. The check on knowing what that meant would be so low in my mind as a DM that there isn't need to make a DC since there will be PC with Proficiency in nature and arcana there.

And Rick is completely correct. This is a 4th level character and these will be the first magical weapons they see. The monster would just leave them be since they can't do anything to them.

The weapons are useful enough to give boosts where the PCs will have weak points, but not really harm the campaign. The dagger has a command word that when spoken will immediately spring into their hand. So, it gives the TWF Ranger the ability to draw two weapons in a round. The Greataxe allows a single use per long rest of a bonus 1d6 necrotic damage that gives the same amount to the PC for temp HP (there isn't a lot of healing ability around).


My goal was to put them into a situation where they have to make a hard choice. It is worth risking my other stuff that I may not be able to replace to get these items that are something special.

[Bloodcloud]

This sounds like great encounter design. Do it!

[Elderand]

Given that magic items aren't strictly necessery in 5th edition and that you only need a little gold to get the best possible mundane equipment, losing your stuff to rust monsters isn't all that big a deal in the long run. The problem is what come immediately after the rust monsters.

[RickAllison]

Given that magic items aren't strictly necessery in 5th edition and that you only need a little gold to get the best possible mundane equipment, losing your stuff to rust monsters isn't all that big a deal in the long run. The problem is what come immediately after the rust monsters.

The exception being armor. The fighter who just bought his new and shiny full plate would be right to run away screaming, as 1500 gp is not a small amount.

[nickl_2000]

The exception being armor. The fighter who just bought his new and shiny full plate would be right to run away screaming, as 1500 gp is not a small amount.

Which is part of the fun of them. The fighter running away screaming while the warlock and wizard say "run away little wuss, ive got this"

[Ninja-Radish]

A Rust Monster pack would be both cruel and hilarious in equal measure.

[djreynolds]

Well it is a DC11 to evade the rust monster's antennae. Not as easy as one would think, but doable.

But any fighter worth his salt, comes prepared. He has a spear or staff perhaps, and yes that wizard can get off his butt and get to work.

Team work and tactics.

[Kane0]

Dungeoncrawling eh?

A mated pair of Rust Monsters (same stats but one has more HP than the other) have made a nest in a quiet corner of the dungeon. It's pretty out of the way, the party would have to poke around away from the main sections of the dungeon to come across it. One ventures out to forage for 'food' every few days, otherwise they keep watch over their freshly hatched but slow growing brood and defending it aggressively from anything that comes too close.
The PCs will only stumble across them if they are actively searching, probably coming across some scattered litter that the rust monsters can't eat. If they are both perceptive and quick they can back off before the rust monsters attack, plus after a fight there is the question of what to do with the hatchlings.

[Hrugner]

You've set two magic items in the room so I think they'd take the gamble. There's a host of rusted weapons in the room which indicates a host of failed adventurers falling here. You may want to consider placing a stash nearby of metalic objects past adventurers have stashed in order to avoid losing them to the rust monsters prior to their falling in battle. You don't want to make the risk non-existent, but mitigate the possibility of them losing absolutely everything in the fight. Something like a bear bag with some mid quality armor and weapons in it hanging from a peg above the room being used as bait for the rust monsters.

[Potato_Priest]

If your fighter doesn't strip naked and then grapple the rust monster he's doing it wrong.

I wish I could do that, but armor takes so long to take off that you can never do it when you need to.

So unless you suggest that the fighter go around naked all the time, it's an impractical strategy.

[Tetrasodium]

It depends heavily on the group. a moon druid & some monks could fearlessly stomp all over a pack of rust monsters while everyone else does stuff at range

[NascragMan]

I think it could be fun if they knew there were rust monsters in a dungeon beforehand. They'd have to prepare and might consider leaving weapons and armor behind

[Calibus]

It's completely fine, as long as you're able to supply them with replacement gear. I don't see an issue, players just have to be more creative then go brute force.

[Sigreid]

Not cruel unless they are forced into a fight. If there is some way for them to realize what is coming, or start running, or prepare for a no metal fight it's fine. If they ignore all the clues and just go for it? Sure, break their things.

[CursedRhubarb]

If you make sure to have some sticks of various sizes available before they encounter them then the martials can go at 'em with choice of club, quarterstaff, or greatclub without worry of damaging their precious metal blades. Casters will just sling spells as usual and laugh as the martials panic about a few bugs.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm on board with saying that you should drop hints to indicate the presence of such beasties before they encounter them. I am a big fan of the Three Clue Rule (If something is plot important, put in three or more clues to put them on the right track), so put in multiple hints of their presence. I'm not personally a fan of the idea of not doing something just because a bunch of idiots did it and therefore no one else can.

1) The magical weaponry is a good idea, and very tempting bait. Perhaps one of the rust monsters has built a nest out of shiny, magical, objects.

2) Do...Do rust monsters poo? I mean, that's how I'd normally put in a hint about a creature, since it tends to grab attention and makes sense. I just don't know if it's feasible. If that is not viable, some foot prints for the ranger to find will do nicely.

3) Hints of oddly rusted metal. Perhaps the rust monsters were chased from a meal by other creatures, so only partially ate the metal. Or they don't like the taste of copper, so they might taste certain alloys before deciding to get better food elsewhere.

4) If there ever were intelligent monsters in the area, they might have marked the range of the rust creatures. The group could stumble upon their warning signs.