metallurgy?

[Westhart]

In D&D 3.5 is there a knowledge (metallurgy) skill, and if not would it be a different knowledge or would it be craft (metalworking)?
Thanks for the help in advance :smallbiggrin:

[Waker]

There is no such Knowledge skill. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? We might be able to make a suggestion for the skill needed.

[Westhart]

I am working on a homebrew that allows the refining of special materials to increase some of its properties, but they have to succeed on a check to succeed, hence the question.

[Waker]

Since it pertains to a material Craft is the skill you need. Armor or weaponsmithing would probably be the best. Maybe one could argue alchemy.

[Westhart]

Since it pertains to a material Craft is the skill you need. Armor or weaponsmithing would probably be the best. Maybe one could argue alchemy.

Well, the problem is they are refining the metal before he can use it n a weapon or armor or mettaline item...

Thus would I say weaponsmithing then armor then metalworking respectively?

[Waker]

Well, the problem is they are refining the metal before he can use it n a weapon or armor or mettaline item...

Thus would I say weaponsmithing then armor then metalworking respectively?

Crafting skills in D&D are kinda...vague. Rather than just have an actual official list for all the various jobs in Profession or tradeskills in Craft, they just kinda shrug their shoulder and mumble a bit. Whether a character has armorsmithing, blacksmithing, Willsmithing or something else, it probabaly shouldn't matter so long as skill and the material worked with match up. Set a DC that varies a bit depending on whether you have ranks in Xsmithing, alchemy or whatever else comes to mind. Maybe grant a bonus such as if the character is a dwarf.

[Westhart]

Crafting skills in D&D are kinda...vague. Rather than just have an actual official list for all the various jobs in Profession or tradeskills in Craft, they just kinda shrug their shoulder and mumble a bit. Whether a character has armorsmithing, blacksmithing, Willsmithing or something else, it probabaly shouldn't matter so long as skill and the material worked with match up. Set a DC that varies a bit depending on whether you have ranks in Xsmithing, alchemy or whatever else comes to mind. Maybe grant a bonus such as if the character is a dwarf.

Yes, thanks for the help, thinking making metal working the base, with a +2 to dc for weaponsmithing/armorsmithing and ~+4 for alchemy

[AOKost]

I would pundit that it should be either slated under Craft (Metalurgy) and/or Profession (Metalurgist), and with every 5 ranks in both you should get a +2 synergy bonus. That's only for the refinement of metals for further use in items.

[Gildedragon]

I'd go for a complex check: A series of Kn Architecture and Engineering checks to develop the material (akin to the checks for developing spells), then a Craft Alchemy check to make the material, lastly a Craft -relevant- to make something out of it

[Fizban]

In DnD terms, mundanely altering a material to make it stronger is almost always alchemy. There are tons of both consumable items and permanent materials that justify themselves by saying their alchemically enhanced.

[Sagetim]

Well, if you're talking about things like refining things to make superior materials that have modifiers to aspects of the items stats (like different hardness, hp, and so on) then craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Blacksmithing), and Craft (Alchemy) would provide different means of getting to the same ends.

Metallurgy would be the most specific skill and thus most appropriate for having success, while Blacksmithing generally also involves refining the materials you are working with as part of the process, and Alchemy is a kind of proto-chemistry.

Personally, I think the rules for making money with craft checks would be disingenuous with regards to metallurgy of this nature. This has to do with the rules not accurately reflecting how much, for example, an ingot of crucible steel, wootz steel, or damascus steel would be worth compared to a regular ingot. Nor would the rules cover how many of those ingots you could produce in a week, because their value would be much higher than the cost of the base materials. A large part of that is going to have to do with how common the knowledge of making that kind of material is, with master smiths who do know how to produce that material keeping that knowledge secret and only maybe teaching some of their best apprentices how to do it perhaps sometimes.

But to answer your question: Craft (Metallurgy) would make the most sense, and should have a lower than normal dc, with Craft (Blacksmithing) having a baseline dc, and Craft (Alchemy) having a baseline dc and a -2 penalty. The amount of time it takes to make the material should probably have a set speed, instead of operating off of the normal rules. And the raw materials cost should probably be wildly different than the 1/3rd base cost value normally associated with crafting in 3.5. Producing materials like this should be important to some degree if you're making custom rules for them, and should provide those who know how to do it with an incentive to do so without sharing the secrets of how they are doing it.

Improved versions of steel, for example, should have improved hit points, improved hardness, and possibly resistance to rusting.

[Gildedragon]

I, personally, would advise against creating a new craft skill... skillpoints are limited enough as is.

Alchemy + Blacksmithing/Weaponsmithing/Armorsmithing (depending on the object being made) is sufficient to cover the idea of working metal by adding strange substances to it.

also complex checks can be more engaging for weird things like superspecial materials.

[Lazymancer]

In D&D 3.5 is there a knowledge (metallurgy) skill, and if not would it be a different knowledge or would it be craft (metalworking)?
Thanks for the help in advance :smallbiggrin:
No. And it shouldn't exist for several reasons.

My advice is to have Craft (Smithing) that would include both refining of metals, as well as crafting/repairing armor and weapons. Overcomplicating things is a FATAL mistake, if you get my drift.

[AOKost]

I'd go for a complex check: A series of Kn Architecture and Engineering checks to develop the material (akin to the checks for developing spells), then a Craft Alchemy check to make the material, lastly a Craft -relevant- to make something out of it

I like the idea of a complex check. Having to make different Knowledge (Engineering) checks to build a furnace to refine the materials could be very valuable.


Well, if you're talking about things like refining things to make superior materials that have modifiers to aspects of the items stats (like different hardness, hp, and so on) then craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Blacksmithing), and Craft (Alchemy) would provide different means of getting to the same ends.

Metallurgy would be the most specific skill and thus most appropriate for having success, while Blacksmithing generally also involves refining the materials you are working with as part of the process, and Alchemy is a kind of proto-chemistry.

Personally, I think the rules for making money with craft checks would be disingenuous with regards to metallurgy of this nature. This has to do with the rules not accurately reflecting how much, for example, an ingot of crucible steel, wootz steel, or damascus steel would be worth compared to a regular ingot. Nor would the rules cover how many of those ingots you could produce in a week, because their value would be much higher than the cost of the base materials. A large part of that is going to have to do with how common the knowledge of making that kind of material is, with master smiths who do know how to produce that material keeping that knowledge secret and only maybe teaching some of their best apprentices how to do it perhaps sometimes.

But to answer your question: Craft (Metallurgy) would make the most sense, and should have a lower than normal dc, with Craft (Blacksmithing) having a baseline dc, and Craft (Alchemy) having a baseline dc and a -2 penalty. The amount of time it takes to make the material should probably have a set speed, instead of operating off of the normal rules. And the raw materials cost should probably be wildly different than the 1/3rd base cost value normally associated with crafting in 3.5. Producing materials like this should be important to some degree if you're making custom rules for them, and should provide those who know how to do it with an incentive to do so without sharing the secrets of how they are doing it.

Improved versions of steel, for example, should have improved hit points, improved hardness, and possibly resistance to rusting.

Using a mundane process akin to Craft: Alchemy, and any "smithing" skills in my opinion should be separated, but I do understand if you'd like to allow players with fewer skill points to be able to 'specialize' their knowledge by combining multiple skills into overarching Craft: Smithing skill that would allow you to refine the materials in one process that give you a material bonus on the actual craft checks while crafting the item, on top of any bonuses that refining the material could have, let alone adding any templates like laminated.

[Westhart]

I'd go for a complex check: A series of Kn Architecture and Engineering checks to develop the material (akin to the checks for developing spells), then a Craft Alchemy check to make the material, lastly a Craft -relevant- to make something out of it
Hmm, that does sound nice.

In DnD terms, mundanely altering a material to make it stronger is almost always alchemy. There are tons of both consumable items and permanent materials that justify themselves by saying their alchemically enhanced.
true, although it is not necessarily alchemical in nature...hmm

Well, if you're talking about things like refining things to make superior materials that have modifiers to aspects of the items stats (like different hardness, hp, and so on) then craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Blacksmithing), and Craft (Alchemy) would provide different means of getting to the same ends.

Metallurgy would be the most specific skill and thus most appropriate for having success, while Blacksmithing generally also involves refining the materials you are working with as part of the process, and Alchemy is a kind of proto-chemistry.

Personally, I think the rules for making money with craft checks would be disingenuous with regards to metallurgy of this nature. This has to do with the rules not accurately reflecting how much, for example, an ingot of crucible steel, wootz steel, or damascus steel would be worth compared to a regular ingot. Nor would the rules cover how many of those ingots you could produce in a week, because their value would be much higher than the cost of the base materials. A large part of that is going to have to do with how common the knowledge of making that kind of material is, with master smiths who do know how to produce that material keeping that knowledge secret and only maybe teaching some of their best apprentices how to do it perhaps sometimes.

But to answer your question: Craft (Metallurgy) would make the most sense, and should have a lower than normal dc, with Craft (Blacksmithing) having a baseline dc, and Craft (Alchemy) having a baseline dc and a -2 penalty. The amount of time it takes to make the material should probably have a set speed, instead of operating off of the normal rules. And the raw materials cost should probably be wildly different than the 1/3rd base cost value normally associated with crafting in 3.5. Producing materials like this should be important to some degree if you're making custom rules for them, and should provide those who know how to do it with an incentive to do so without sharing the secrets of how they are doing it.

Improved versions of steel, for example, should have improved hit points, improved hardness, and possibly resistance to rusting.
Hmm, yes I need to write up some improvised steel and mundane metals... as it is it only benefits special ones... will do tonight

I, personally, would advise against creating a new craft skill... skillpoints are limited enough as is.

Alchemy + Blacksmithing/Weaponsmithing/Armorsmithing (depending on the object being made) is sufficient to cover the idea of working metal by adding strange substances to it.

also complex checks can be more engaging for weird things like superspecial materials.
I do agree with rare skill points and often give extra to players... I do like the complex checks...

No. And it shouldn't exist for several reasons.

My advice is to have Craft (Smithing) that would include both refining of metals, as well as crafting/repairing armor and weapons. Overcomplicating things is a FATAL mistake, if you get my drift.
Fair enough

I like the idea of a complex check. Having to make different Knowledge (Engineering) checks to build a furnace to refine the materials could be very valuable.

Using a mundane process akin to Craft: Alchemy, and any "smithing" skills in my opinion should be separated, but I do understand if you'd like to allow players with fewer skill points to be able to 'specialize' their knowledge by combining multiple skills into overarching Craft: Smithing skill that would allow you to refine the materials in one process that give you a material bonus on the actual craft checks while crafting the item, on top of any bonuses that refining the material could have, let alone adding any templates like laminated.
Hmm have a lot to think about, and now you guys are making me do it before Thursday :smalltongue:

Probably be the last thing I finish up...

.... I have to edit the monk too still ROFL

[Westhart]

Moved it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525278-Metal-refinements-(variant-rule)&p=22023165#post22023165)because it was becoming more homebrew stuff now

[Deophaun]

Well, the problem is they are refining the metal before he can use it n a weapon or armor or mettaline item...
Does not matter.

A big part of metallurgy is tempering. That's something that will happen entirely during the forging process. Mess that up, and instead of a sword that will spring back on a hit, you'll get one that will warp or shatter.

Furthermore, constant hammering is used to spread out material and remove impurities. What you burn to fuel the forge also releases or removes compounds from the metal. This is much more complicated stuff than simply adding a percentage of chromium or vanadium to an iron ingot to prevent rust.

Metallurgy is intrinsically related to the forging process. You cannot do one without the other.