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Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-19, 06:43 AM
Let's dive into some fun optimization with the evil Paladin Oath option from the DMG! No UA/Homebrew material allowed, SCAG and all other works are free to use in this. The reasoning behind this thread is me restarting a campaign and Oathbreaker has been allowed as one of my options. We start at lvl 8; feats and multiclassing is allowed. I am not looking to build this character as a tank, though he should be able to take a few hits.

''He walks amidst the chaos of the battlefield, paying no heed to the lesser creatures that appear hostile to him. His gaze is set on the biggest threat of the fight, and he will take the most direct route towards that creature. Any lesser lifeforms that happen to come across his path are simply cut down in the process."

How would you all go around building this? Ofcourse this description screems the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style, but as its UA material I am not allowed to pick it. My initial idea was a Half-Orc Oathbreaker 11-12/Sorcerer x. Get the ASI's for potential stat increases (DM is going to roll the array through 4d6 drop lowest, if the total is under 70 the entire array is rerolled) and use PAM/GWM/Sentinel for the open spaces. I'm also playing around with the possibility of incorporating Find Steed in my main get-up, using a Warhorse Skeleton for fluff purposes. (This would give me advantage on any creature smaller than my horse, and the PAM weapon I'd use gives me Reach)

Aside from the ASI's Improved Divine Smite seems like an easy increase in DPR (although I often hear people mention it's not worth sitting through lvl 8-10 as a Paladin just for that), along with the Sorcerer MC for switching out spell slot levels, Haste and Hold Person etc.

I forgot to mention we are also allowed to choose 1 magic item for our character. (Damage-wise things along the line of Frost Brand were allowed, and even a +1 Vorpal Sword)

Help me my fellow brethren, I beseech thee!

Specter
2017-05-19, 07:56 AM
The most important feats to get are Polearm Master and Sentinel. They match perfectly with Oathbreaker abilities. You also want to max STR and CHA, so be sure to pick V.Human or Half-Elf as your race.

First of all, Aura of Hate adds to all your attacks, so you definitely want a bonus action attack no matter what (PAM). You also want a reach weapon to keep your foes at bay (more on that below).

Sentinel is important for the combo with Dreadful Aspect (if you stay at exactly 10 feet from the foe): if your foes are frightened, they can't approach you. At the same time, if they run from you, they take an attack and stay put. So an Oathbreaker can really destroy melee foes who can't extend their reach.

If your foes are magic, stay close to them and make sure to not use your reaction, so they get stopped the same way. And in any case, your huge saves should protect you from their shenanigans.

Minionmancy is also vital for successful oathbreaking: always have at least 2 skeleton buddies with bows to peck your foes at range (while still adding your CHA to damage). You could have more, but they would either have to attack with cover you If you can somehow grab a 13INT, Necromancer is a great 6-level multiclass because of that: CHA+PROF to damage gives your undead the award of Most Annoying Support.

Corran
2017-05-19, 08:02 AM
(Oops. Forgot the no-UA part at some point and talked a bit about favored soul and shadow sorc, though not much).

Let's start.

First of all, let me say this. I love the amount of customization a sorcadin provides, but in the case of oathbreaker, I am very very very tempted to always suggest playing a singleclass build, because this oath (or rather, the lack of one) is just too strong! That said, I am very sold on the idea of an oathbreaker/ favored soul, and I have a few ideas on that build, which I am going to share later. But for now, let me just repeat that singleclass oathbreakers are boss.

Lets start with race and stats. Since you dont know what your stats will be, I cannot suggest which race would be the best.... BUT..... oathbreakers really profit from a superb charisma. Dreadfull aspect alone would be enough IMO to justify prioritizing charisma over your other stats. And on top of that, you have aura of protection, control undead, and some very serious spells (whether you multiclass or not), as well as other things that are affected by charisma. So.... my best suggestion is this: Whether you decide to multiclass in sorcerer or not (but moreso if you dont multiclass), DONT go with a GWM (unless you really really have to? for style...?), DONT go with bumping strength before charisma, and DONT go with a race that does not provide you a charisma bonus (unless you want to play a halforc for rp purposes). Your best bet is either a variant human or a halfelf (I prefer vhuman for the singleclass oathbreaker, halfelf for a sorcadin oathbreaker -assuming no shadow sorc, if shadow sorc then vhuman-, but these distinctions are about minor optimization -still, optimization). I am just expressing an opinion here without making any serious justification, but I am willing to discuss further any of what I have mentioned so far (and anything of what I'll mention later) if you ask specifics about it (cant just analyze everything in a single post).

If you really really want to be a GWM (which I advise against, seriously it is not optimal at all), then you have to multiclass in sorcerer, as the oathbreaker paladin base offers you very little to justify GWMing (and GWM competes with much better options for a pure oathbreaker). Sorcerer will at least give you at least some tools to optimize around GWM, but even so, it is far from an optimal choice. If you really want to wield a greatsword (which is still not optimal, for either a singleclass or a multiclass oathbreaker), then at least do NOT take GWM.

Ok, I told about the halforc, and about GWM, and about how you ''should'' pick a race with a cha (and str) bonus, and aim for a maxed charisma even at the expense of a lower strength.

Now, if staying pure oathbreaker, there are two options I can think of.

1) The first one is to take PAM and sentinel as feats, and use 2 ASI's to max charisma to 20. For the rest ASI(s) (if point buy human would be the better choice, but since we dont know your stats halfelf might make a better feat, so depending on the optimal race for your stats, you will be left with either 1 or 2 ASI's), there are many good options (such as boosting str, picking up resilient con, or inspiring leader, etc). (If you are interested in justification on this, ask me and I will analyze my train of thought.)

2) The other way to go about a singleclass oathbreaker (and that occured to me just today(!), so I haven't thought this very throroughly), is to go with shield master (instead of PAM), and other than that same as before (sentinel, 2 cha bumps, etc). (Again, if you are interested in this option, just ask me for further details and I will reply with another post).



If multiclassing into sorcerer, then Gastronomie's guide about sorcadins will be much more informative than anything I have to tell you. Based just on your oath, I would suggest a S&B approach and warcaster. And at least a 6/14 or a 9/11 split, and str based (but again, fair warning, I am very biased as far as these last choices are concerned; oathbreaker 3/ sorc 17 wouldnt be that bad I guess...).

As for what sorcerous origin (assuming the poorly balanced shadow is not an option), I honestly dont know which is the most optimal choice, but my favourite pick for an oathbreaker would be the favored soul (in which case, do not even bother with the 9/11 split)., both draconic and wild magic work well (avoid storm though). Too bad favored soul is off the table.

One thing I would like to add, is that if you go S&B sorcadin oathbreaker, do NOT pick up dueling, and do NOT be anxious about getting aura of hate (even if you plan for a charisma of 20). It's a trap option, from an end-ish build perspective.

Now, I know I said that I was going to present some thoughts about an oathbreaker/ favored soul, but in my excitement I forgot how you said no UA, so I guess I'll end this post here.

Feel more than welcome to ask me for any justification on what I presented as optimal choices, if you can handle another wall of text:smallsmile:


ps: I think that there is some ambiguity in the wording of control undead, as far as if it works based on paladin levels or on character levels, but perhaps it is clear and I dont see it. I think it refers to paladin levels, so multiclassing away from paladin could compromise this specific use of your channel divinity. Clear this up with your DM beforehand (even in case RAW is clear). A well built oathbreaker (even a multiclassed one), can gain a lot out of some undead minions, either for some extra damage layout or for some additional meatshields that will trigger your sentinel reaction (with IDS and aura of hate on), or as pawns that try to grapple your enemies and keep them within the radius of your dreadful aspect so that they never get a save once they are affected. There must be other good tricks for utilizing the stronger undead minions you can get via your control undead, but I haven't looked that much into it.


Specter ninja'd me again! Agggrrrrhhhh :smalltongue:
To add a silly bit of my own regarding his reasonable(?) advice on a necromancer dip (agree with everything else he said), if you get create undead, and you get some ghouls or ghasts out of it, then it might be worth trying to stick bestow curse on an enemy (disadavnatage on con saves), so that your minions will have a much better chance to paralyze them (and then, free smites). Though that would work much better for a sorcadin favored soul with heighten spell. Not a great tactics (as important enemies will have legendary resistances and they will chew up your ghouls/ghasts before they manage to make any difference, but thought I should share it).

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-19, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the replies!

So far things seem to be heavily favoured for either pure H-Elf Oathbreaker with PAM+Sentinel and H-Elf Oathbreaker/Necromancer. Any thoughts about using a Warhorse Skeleton simultaniously for free attack advantage? (Especially with the PAM+Sentinel setup)

Edit: Ohhh and what about Fallen Aasimar for race choice?

Corran
2017-05-19, 09:01 AM
Edit: Ohhh and what about Fallen Aasimar for race choice?
Dont know much about these guys as I dont have Volo's, but from what I have heard they get a charisma bonus (+2), a strength bonus (+1), and a fear effect 1/day which takes an action to activate? Plus the resistances (radiant and necrotic) the aasimar in the DMG gets?

If that's the case, then with point buy I would probably still prefer the variant human, though I would have to know more about how strong their fear power is to make an informed decision.

The good thing is that you dont have to worry too much about which the optimal race is. When you'll see your stats, the best one out of these 3 (vhuman, halfelf, fallen aasimar) will be the one that will complement your rolled stats best (as each one provides a different set of ability bonuses). Though do plan ahead from now and decide if you are going to pick resilient con or not, as that can affect your stat distribution and race selection. Resilient con is a great feat, but for a pure oathbreaker I am not sure if it makes it into the final build, as there is too much competition.

ps: Dont have any useful advice to give about the warhorse, haven't lookded enough into it.
If the campaign is very friendly to mounted characters, and if you are multiclassing into sorcerer, and if you base a large portion of your combat prowess on the advantage given from mounted combatant, then maybe (and it is just a maybe), it might be worth taking one warlock level for AoA which you can share with your mount? But these are a lot of if's...

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-19, 09:05 AM
Dont know much about these guys as I dont have Volo's, but from what I have heard they get a charisma bonus (+2), a strength bonus (+1), and a fear effect 1/day which takes an action to activate? Plus the resistances (radiant and necrotic) the aasimar in the DMG gets?

If that's the case, then with point buy I would probably still prefer the variant human, though I would have to know more about how strong their fear power is to make an informed decision.

The good thing is that you dont have to worry too much about which the optimal race is. When you'll see your stats, the best one out of these 3 (vhuman, halfelf, fallen aasimar) will be the one that will complement your rolled stats best (as each one provides a different set of ability bonuses). Though do plan ahead from now and decide if you are going to pick resilient con or not, as that can affect your stat distribution and race selection. Resilient con is a great feat, but for a pure oathbreaker I am not sure if it makes it into the final build, as there is too much competition.

In a nutshell, it's a DC 8 + prof + cha saving throw for everything within 10 feet of me. Feared until end of my next turn on a fail. The power itself lasts 1 minute, and while its active I can add my lvl in necrotic damage to an attack once per turn. Aasimars are also immune to disease.

If I'm going the PAM route (which I'm edging towards) I won't be multiclassing.

Corran
2017-05-19, 09:45 AM
In a nutshell, it's a DC 8 + prof + cha saving throw for everything within 10 feet of me. Feared until end of my next turn on a fail. The power itself lasts 1 minute, and while its active I can add my lvl in necrotic damage to an attack once per turn.
Ok, very roughly, assuming you go with the PAM route, using the above fear power means that you give up 16 pure damage for the potential to make everyone (is it party friendly???) within 10 feet of you frigtened for 1 turn, plus getting back a bonus action to utilize in any way you want other than a butt-end attack (the comparison was made at 20th level, but I dont expect a major deviation from this in lower levels. If this is party friendly, you might get some good use out of it (it will play a big part if and how you utilize any undead minions you might have around). But as I said, regarding optimization, your best bet is to pick the race that will complement best your rolled stats.
Thanks for letting me know, I have to buy this book!


If I'm going the PAM route (which I'm edging towards) I won't be multiclassing.
PAM applies much better to a pure paladin rather than a multiclassed one (with sorcerer I mean) imo.
If you go with the PAM route, have in mind two things that revolve around utilizing undead minions (a couple of armored zombies use to grapple enemies to keep them inside the radius of dreadful aspect is a good plan.

1) Reach plays really well with dreadful aspect, but there are a lot of pros to staying within 5 feet of your enemies, even when they are feared and you have reach (this assumes at least a couple of zombie-tanks). Sentinel allows you an OA against an enemy that is within 5 feet that targets an ally of yours, so with aira of hate and IDS eventually you will want to profit from these OA's, and thus you will might want to stay on the front, not utilizing your reach. This will spare some pain for your zombies too (and your allies, more importantly), which is a good thing. You can always fall back t reach if you want to be cautious with your hp, or when your zombies and your allies are not up front with you. And that's very unfair to the enemies if they are affected by your dreadful aspect, but oathbreakers dont have to play fair:smallwink:. Just keep in mind that there can be cases when you will want to be next to the enemies.

2) Secondly, discuss with your DM how ordering your undead minions (seriously, dont underestimate them, feared enemies have disadvantage on skill checks and tus zombies can grapple them more easily, and grappling frightened enemies prevents them from exiting your dreadful aura's radius, hence no additional saves; plus zombies are cheap, and when you equip them decently, durable enough) will work. It takes a bonus action to give them a specific or a general (which they will follow until carried out) command, which means that according to your DM this might or might not present an opportunity cost for your butt-end attack from PAM. You can always try to give commands to your undead before combat, but that again falls under your DM's discretion as to how much your minions can make out of these commands (skeletons are ''smarter'', zombies -which are key- are big dummies).

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-19, 02:09 PM
Update! The rolled stats are 18,15,14,10,10,8 (in any order). Health totals to 59 before CON mod additions.

Specter
2017-05-19, 03:40 PM
Update! The rolled stats are 18,15,14,10,10,8 (in any order). Health totals to 59 before CON mod additions.

Without the CON mods, a generic Paladin would have 52HP at level 8. (10+(6x7)). Are you applying some houserule?

But anyway, any race that boosts both CHA and STR will work. Go crazy. Remember, PAM and Sentinel!

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-19, 03:42 PM
Without the CON mods, a generic Paladin would have 52HP at level 8. (10+(6x7)). Are you applying some houserule?

But anyway, any race that boosts both CHA and STR will work. Go crazy. Remember, PAM and Sentinel!

No auto-average rolls. Rolled 2 10's, 2 8's 2 4's, 1 5. Totalling to 49 + the auto-10 at lvl 1.

Corran
2017-05-20, 01:50 AM
Update! The rolled stats are 18,15,14,10,10,8 (in any order). Health totals to 59 before CON mod additions.
Ok, since starting at level 8, and with these rolled stats, I say stay away from the variant human (halfelf is strictly better in your case).

That leaves you two optimal choices: halfelf or fallen aasimar.
Now, I am not sure which one is best (though I suspect you want to play the aasimar), so I will provide you an opinion for both (taking into account that you are leaning to PAM).

Halfelf (@8th level)
STR 16, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 20
Feats: PAM, sentinel
Planned ASI progression: Resilient con, Inspiring leader, +2 STR (in any order you find best).

Aasimar, fallen (@8th level)
STR 16, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 20
Feats: PAM, sentinel
Planned ASI progression: Inspiring leader, +2 STR, +2 STR/CON (in any order you find best).

Hard to pinpoint the most optimal path (and even though human loses some steam due to having a 18, which should be used in charisma, it is still not a bad pick).

ps: I think fallen aasimar plays a little better towards utilizing undead minion ''shenaighans'' (not really shenanighans), since it offers another fear effect (to use when dreadful aspect is not available, for a short while), and since it allows you to get inspiring leader faster (possibly before the str bumps). Though I am not sure how this strategy will hold up in the higher levels (perhaps the halfelf is better suited to higher level play, moreso since it allows you to get resilient con).

ps2: Dont forget about wrathful smite, it will play well with both your reach and possibly your capstone (despite the bonus action overlap).

djreynolds
2017-05-20, 02:13 AM
I'm looking to have an NPC Oath Breaker, any thoughts?

I need a good villain, perhaps redeemable.

Corran
2017-05-20, 02:29 AM
I'm looking to have an NPC Oath Breaker, any thoughts?

I need a good villain, perhaps redeemable.
For mechanics, Specter and I both gave some good advice (I dare to think) in this thread. Also, any of the paladin guides will add to any advice given here.

Fluff wise, I do have some ideas which revolve around an ancients paladin turning oathbreaker, and I can PM you (in order not to bog down this thread with needless conversation) some stuff later today or tomorrow, as I need to get my hands on my campaign notes first.

djreynolds
2017-05-20, 02:50 AM
For mechanics, Specter and I both gave some good advice (I dare to think) in this thread. Also, any of the paladin guides will add to any advice given here.

Fluff wise, I do have some ideas which revolve around an ancients paladin turning oathbreaker, and I can PM you (in order not to bog down this thread with needless conversation) some stuff later today or tomorrow, as I need to get my hands on my campaign notes first.

That's awesome

I'm running Tomb of Horrors and previous party's paladin was left there, sort of along the lines of Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail to await new heroes to face the lich, while the other party members managed to escape. But it was a "long" time ago and the paladin has swayed from OoA to oath breaker.

And the party needs to redeem the oath breaker to defeat the lich

Citan
2017-05-20, 05:09 AM
Let's dive into some fun optimization with the evil Paladin Oath option from the DMG! No UA/Homebrew material allowed, SCAG and all other works are free to use in this. The reasoning behind this thread is me restarting a campaign and Oathbreaker has been allowed as one of my options. We start at lvl 8; feats and multiclassing is allowed. I am not looking to build this character as a tank, though he should be able to take a few hits.

''He walks amidst the chaos of the battlefield, paying no heed to the lesser creatures that appear hostile to him. His gaze is set on the biggest threat of the fight, and he will take the most direct route towards that creature. Any lesser lifeforms that happen to come across his path are simply cut down in the process."

How would you all go around building this? Ofcourse this description screems the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style, but as its UA material I am not allowed to pick it. My initial idea was a Half-Orc Oathbreaker 11-12/Sorcerer x. Get the ASI's for potential stat increases (DM is going to roll the array through 4d6 drop lowest, if the total is under 70 the entire array is rerolled) and use PAM/GWM/Sentinel for the open spaces. I'm also playing around with the possibility of incorporating Find Steed in my main get-up, using a Warhorse Skeleton for fluff purposes. (This would give me advantage on any creature smaller than my horse, and the PAM weapon I'd use gives me Reach)

Aside from the ASI's Improved Divine Smite seems like an easy increase in DPR (although I often hear people mention it's not worth sitting through lvl 8-10 as a Paladin just for that), along with the Sorcerer MC for switching out spell slot levels, Haste and Hold Person etc.

I forgot to mention we are also allowed to choose 1 magic item for our character. (Damage-wise things along the line of Frost Brand were allowed, and even a +1 Vorpal Sword)

Help me my fellow brethren, I beseech thee!
Hi!

Well, I will have VERY different advice to you compared to the previous ones. XD

1. Do you wish to multiclass into Sorcerer?
If so, you should indeed pick up Charisma first.
If not, two options...
a) If your DM agrees to it, choose the lesser variety of Belt of Giant Strenght to go with a starting 10. You don't care since you won't multiclass, and with this you already start with top STR to go with GWM (see below).
b) If you cannot, then start with at least 16 in STR, and aim to get 18 in STR by level 8. Same with Charisma (so basically start with 16 in CHA and STR, bump STR at level 4, bump CHA at level 8).

2. Do you wish to wield a greatsword?
If yes, then pick up GWM, max STR first, use Bless on you if required to help counterbalance the to-hit malus, pick also Sentinel to help provoke OAs.
If no, pick Sword and Shield, Protection Style to help friends or your own undead, keep STR at 18 max so you can instead max CHA and still take Sentinel and Shield Master.

Note about Undead: yes, that is a very good option for a Paladin, but it's not THAT good up to the point of putting skeletons as the priority for building (unless you were multiclassing into Necromancer Wizard, but that is another thing entirely and not fitting your stat roll).
Let's not forget that...
- Aura of Hate only applies to melee weapon attacks.
- Skeletons have only 13 HP average, meaning when you get them (lvl 9), they will be already susceptible of dying under a single attack from any enemy. So don't count on them contributing for a long time, unless you invest resources in protecting them (Bless! Also Protection fighting style and your Frightening Channel Divinity).
- Skeletons have only +4 to hit and deal average 5 damage on melee or ranged attack. Meaning against AC16, they have less than 45% chance to hit without external help. Against 1C18, 35% chance. Against AC 20, 25% chance.
- Skeletons have only +2 on DEX saves and CON saves , meaning a single Shatter or Burning Hands could be enough to destroy them on a failed save. A single Fireball (or upcast previous one) will blow them up whatever happens.
- Skeletons are sensible to WIS saves, and very to CHA saves. Meaning at higher level, some caster foe could have fun disabling them all with a single spell (strangely enough, they can be frightened or charmed) or worse, turning them all against you, forcing you to either sustain the attacks or destroy them yourself.
Of course, you have your Aura of Protection that can help much, but the short aura radius (10 feet) means you and your troops have to stick very close to each other, making AOE attacks more worth to try as an effect. Only at level 18 will you get the required 30 feet range, at which time the creatures unleashing abilities usually do so with such a high DC that your skeletons will fail anyways.

So, usually, you will have between 3 and 5 undead with you until you reach lvl 13, considering you spend all resources you can to maintain control or create additional, taking into account the ones you are bound to lose in fights. At higher level, considering you spend all resources on this -which is a waste of Paladin potential- and are lucky, you could have a good dozen of those at any given time, but at that campaign level they will be usually useless because too frail and inefficient compared to the enemies you will face (high AC, high HP, many AOE abilities)...

In short, it's a very good damage boost for some levels but will quickly fall behind in terms of cost/ROI ratio.
Note that this is an opinion based on "solo character". Depending on the party and player's willingness to go with this, your skeletons army could be made much more viable (buffing them, debuffing enemies, shaping the battlefield to channel foes in a specific direction or forbid them to reach your skeletons etc). ;)

So either you want to "be a necromancer" and then you must build everything around, in which case you'd better multiclass Necromancer Wizard (at least up to 6, the higher the better) and accept being on the defensive: put your highest rolls in INT and CHA, keep STR at required, ask for a magic item that gives high Constitution, and just stroll around in heavy armor and shield to protect your troops and use some cantrips otherwise. Inspiring Leader is an obvious choice even if limited to 6 creatures. Also Shield Master to shove dangerous enemies to the ground and possibly Sentinel to help make enemies stick to you.

Or you want to be a fearsome Paladin first and should focus on that, confer above.

And considering your fluff quotation, I don't think you envision your character as a zombie-army leader but as a powerful, frightul warrior that has the ability to cut anyone into pieces, so there is that too.

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-20, 09:03 AM
It seems like everyone is pretty much in agreeance that GWM is a trap option for a PAM Oathbreaker?

Specter
2017-05-20, 10:07 AM
It seems like everyone is pretty much in agreeance that GWM is a trap option for a PAM Oathbreaker?

Not a trap, it's good. I just believe there's better stuff out there.

Citan
2017-05-20, 10:12 AM
It seems like everyone is pretty much in agreeance that GWM is a trap option for a PAM Oathbreaker?
Well, obviously not everyone (beyond the fact that only 2 really expressed opinions here). Also note that I suggested GWM with Sentinel, not PAM. But let's discuss this while we are at it. :)

The problem, usually not significant, of getting GWM and Polearm Master is that you get some overlap in the features they provide.
More specifically, on the bonus action.
GWM provides a "full-blown" weapon attack but only if you killed an enemy with a melee weapon during the same turn. Which in all fairness has a good chance to happen if you can apply the extra damage and still hit, but should still always be considered somewhat unreliable. The next problem becoming "how to ensure a good chance to hit"?

Polearm Master provides a constant bonus action but limits the weapon damage die to 1d4, which is a loss of a few damage points. The next problem being, in a S&B setup, "will the DM allow the bonus action while wielding a shield?" (it's RAW but many feel this is cheesy).

Now, in the context of any Paladin, the problem is significantly higher because Paladin generally need at least 4 ASI on the 5 just to max STR and CHA, so only one for feats left. For GWM specifically, only Vengeance and Devotion have built-in features to totally offset the -5 malus to hit.

In the context of Oathbreaker Paladin specifically, the +CHA damage to attacks means you generally want to make sure...
1) To get as many weapon attacks as possible
2) Every weapon attack hits as often as possible, even if lesser damage, rather than making a few big ones that hit harder but miss often.

"Then, why would I want GWM?"
First, because with my suggestion you can start with STR>20 (in fact, if Frost Blade is allowed, since it's a very rare weapon you could safely ask for the Belt of Giant Strength that gives either 23 (Frost) or 25 (Fire).
So the intrisical problem of Paladin and ASI becomes a thing of the past, and from the get go you get extremely good damage overall.
Second, because Oathbreaker doesn't get that many good exclusive spells, so you can safely stick with using Concentration on Bless (which can also affect your few undeads), further helping you offset the to-hit malus of GWM.
Third, because GWM affects every weapon attack, so also ones that other could provide you (if Battlemaster or caster with Haste in the party) and more importantly reaction attacks. So it can work well with Sentinel. And it also works with the bonus action attack provided by Polearm Master.
Finally, because you have no obligation to use it on every attack. You will quickly learn in which instance (against which creatures) the additional risk/damage feature can be enabled.

Also, if you have some people in party who can provide advantage (from spells or shove/grapple) it makes the +10 damage a reliable option.

So, provided DM accepts the Belt, you can stay single-class and get the best of every world: start Variant Human if you want a feat immediately, otherwise Half-Elf (recommended): 18,15,14,10,10,8
10 STR, 14 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 18+2CHA (put the last +1 wherever you want).
With the item, you actually start with >20 STR and 20 CHA. Obviously it creates a weakness to your character because he depends on a magical item, so you may not want this (I personally like this kind of things because it gives interesting options to DM, but YMMV).

You can take as many feats as you want, I'd suggest the following order: GWM, Polearm Master then Sentinel (or reverse as you wish), and whatever left (Inspiring Leader, Mobile, Ritual Caster, Mage Slayer, Spell Sniper, Resilient:Constitution are all great choices).

Anyways, with Bless active, you should have at "starting level 8" at least a +3 (proficiency) + 6 (worst case STR from Belt) + 2 (average from Bless, rounded down) = 11.
Meaning you will crush without even thinking about it enemies with AC lesser than 13 (1d10+6+5), you will have very good chance to hit enemies with even AC 18, and you could easily afford to stack GWM bonus damage onto it when you have advantage because the chances to hit will still be very high. :)

Willywilliamrtx
2017-05-20, 10:29 AM
Well, obviously not everyone (beyond the fact that only 2 really expressed opinions here). Also note that I suggested GWM with Sentinel, not PAM. But let's discuss this while we are at it. :)

The problem, usually not significant, of getting GWM and Polearm Master is that you get some overlap in the features they provide.
More specifically, on the bonus action.
GWM provides a "full-blown" weapon attack but only if you killed an enemy with a melee weapon during the same turn. Which in all fairness has a good chance to happen if you can apply the extra damage and still hit, but should still always be considered somewhat unreliable. The next problem becoming "how to ensure a good chance to hit"?

Polearm Master provides a constant bonus action but limits the weapon damage die to 1d4, which is a loss of a few damage points. The next problem being, in a S&B setup, "will the DM allow the bonus action while wielding a shield?" (it's RAW but many feel this is cheesy).

Now, in the context of any Paladin, the problem is significantly higher because Paladin generally need at least 4 ASI on the 5 just to max STR and CHA, so only one for feats left. For GWM specifically, only Vengeance and Devotion have built-in features to totally offset the -5 malus to hit.

In the context of Oathbreaker Paladin specifically, the +CHA damage to attacks means you generally want to make sure...
1) To get as many weapon attacks as possible
2) Every weapon attack hits as often as possible, even if lesser damage, rather than making a few big ones that hit harder but miss often.

"Then, why would I want GWM?"
First, because with my suggestion you can start with STR>20 (in fact, if Frost Blade is allowed, since it's a very rare weapon you could safely ask for the Belt of Giant Strength that gives either 23 (Frost) or 25 (Fire).
So the intrisical problem of Paladin and ASI becomes a thing of the past, and from the get go you get extremely good damage overall.
Second, because Oathbreaker doesn't get that many good exclusive spells, so you can safely stick with using Concentration on Bless (which can also affect your few undeads), further helping you offset the to-hit malus of GWM.
Third, because GWM affects every weapon attack, so also ones that other could provide you (if Battlemaster or caster with Haste in the party) and more importantly reaction attacks. So it can work well with Sentinel. And it also works with the bonus action attack provided by Polearm Master.
Finally, because you have no obligation to use it on every attack. You will quickly learn in which instance (against which creatures) the additional risk/damage feature can be enabled.

Also, if you have some people in party who can provide advantage (from spells or shove/grapple) it makes the +10 damage a reliable option.

So, provided DM accepts the Belt, you can stay single-class and get the best of every world: start Variant Human if you want a feat immediately, otherwise Half-Elf (recommended): 18,15,14,10,10,8
10 STR, 14 DEX, 15+1 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 18+2CHA (put the last +1 wherever you want).
With the item, you actually start with >20 STR and 20 CHA. Obviously it creates a weakness to your character because he depends on a magical item, so you may not want this (I personally like this kind of things because it gives interesting options to DM, but YMMV).

You can take as many feats as you want, I'd suggest the following order: GWM, Polearm Master then Sentinel (or reverse as you wish), and whatever left (Inspiring Leader, Mobile, Ritual Caster, Mage Slayer, Spell Sniper, Resilient:Constitution are all great choices).

Anyways, with Bless active, you should have at "starting level 8" at least a +3 (proficiency) + 6 (worst case STR from Belt) + 2 (average from Bless, rounded down) = 11.
Meaning you will crush without even thinking about it enemies with AC lesser than 13 (1d10+6+5), you will have very good chance to hit enemies with even AC 18, and you could easily afford to stack GWM bonus damage onto it when you have advantage because the chances to hit will still be very high. :)

Sadly what we're allowed isn't as simple as ''very rare or lower'' (as then we'd just have a stacked party with Flame Tongue weapons). Giant's Strenght Belts aren't allowed as an option *cries in giant*

Corran
2017-05-20, 10:33 AM
It seems like everyone is pretty much in agreeance that GWM is a trap option for a PAM Oathbreaker?
I think I used the word trap, but yes, it is a hyperbole. GWM is a very strong feat. I just think that there are better options, as Specter said.

@Citan: About the undead army thing, I tend to agree with you, that it wont be the center piece of an oathbreaker build (especially at high levels). The best thing is to have one strong undead minion via your control undead feature. But I am writing this part because I want to point something out. And that is that grappler zombies can help you keep enemies within the radius of dreadful aspect, which I think is a very important thing. So I can see having a few of them around be useful even in the higher levels (plus, they might earn you some OA's via sentinel -which is why I dont see protection fighting style as that useful, since it competes with sentinel for your reaction, and since zombies have some built in survivability -especially armored ones, and perhaps wih some temp hp from inspiring leader-, and even if they die, they are not hard to get back).