How do non-wizards "create" new spells?

[Schattenbach]

I've been wondering about it for a while but ... how do non-wizards (particulary when it comes to divine spellcasters and their patrons) "create" new spells? Sure, wizards develope them and all but I don#t remember much about how other classes are (from a setting-based point of view) supposedly being able to do that expect by DM-fiat/it being handwaved and such/etc.?

[The_Jette]

The way I see it, Divine Spellcasters do the same thing that Wizards do, and then ask their deity of choice to provide them with a spell that does whatever they researched. If you think of Divine spells being granted by a Deity as a menu that shows the only spells available, then it's hard to justify. But, if you look at it as the most commonly practiced spells among the class, then it's not as difficult to justify. A Cleric of a Deity asks for Holy Smite and gets it. The same Cleric asks for a custom spell that is similar to mount but lasts for exactly 24 hours, doesn't need to be guided by the rider, and can be slept on without causing fatigue, I say he gets it. It'd probably be a 4th level spell, or higher, but I don't see why the Deity wouldn't provide it. The research part is figuring out how other spell casters do it in order to know exactly the energy that you're asking to have transferred to you by said omnipotent being. But, as a DM I've never had a player ask for a custom made spell. So, it's never really come up before.

[Troven]

The way I see it, Divine Spellcasters do the same thing that Wizards do, and then ask their deity of choice to provide them with a spell that does whatever they researched. If you think of Divine spells being granted by a Deity as a menu that shows the only spells available, then it's hard to justify. But, if you look at it as the most commonly practiced spells among the class, then it's not as difficult to justify. A Cleric of a Deity asks for Holy Smite and gets it. The same Cleric asks for a custom spell that is similar to mount but lasts for exactly 24 hours, doesn't need to be guided by the rider, and can be slept on without causing fatigue, I say he gets it. It'd probably be a 4th level spell, or higher, but I don't see why the Deity wouldn't provide it. The research part is figuring out how other spell casters do it in order to know exactly the energy that you're asking to have transferred to you by said omnipotent being. But, as a DM I've never had a player ask for a custom made spell. So, it's never really come up before.

I always assumed it was like Blessed in Deadlands, you look up legends involving your deity/religion that involve a miracle you want to emulate and asked your deity for the knowledge to perform said miracle.

[Gildedragon]

Archivists learn their spells by finding specific prayers and formulas.
Divine spells still have verbal components. It'd be a matter of them finding out the proper way to entreat their deity, "research" is a meditation upon the reach of their deity.
Seconding research into other miracles.
Clerics don't build new spells; just access spells they didn't know of.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the help thus far.

As far as I can tell, only deities possessing the Arcane Mastery Salient Divine Ability could simply make up new spells (and those are limited to sorcerer/wizard spells only) ... so it still needs considerable DM-fiat/it being handwaved and such/etc. ... arcane spellcasters (due to their often quite customized spell lists) might've a easier time here, I guess, as they could simply experiment (though experimenting and creating new spells is usually a pretty explicit wizard-sthick) and - slowly - teach others (if they're unable to learn spells from scrolls and such) the spells (like, for example, some Wu Jen mentor trying to teach some other Wu Jen or one of its disciple that cool spell the Wu Jen came up with after lots and lots of experiments) ... but for most Divine Spellcasters, I guess it would be up to the patron deity (or whatever force is providing he divine juice for the spells that make up for what the divine spellcaster cannot do himself) to try to twist the divine energy they use to provide spells to grant some newly made spells?

I guess there are also no decent guidelines for non-spell researching classes when it comes to what besides DM-approval (one could usethe pathfinder guidelines here, I guess, but lets put that aside for now as I'm talking more about DnD 3.5 for now) is necessary (laboratory, time investment, other resources, skill checks, etc.) to invent new spells or did I overlook that and the guidelines for wizards and such apply for all classes (which would make it weird that its more or less primarily wizards that are creating all of these new spells) in general?

[Elkad]

...But, as a DM I've never had a player ask for a custom made spell. So, it's never really come up before.


Really? I don't think I've ever played a primary caster past 5th level without researching custom spells. Granted, usually just flavor changes, or a spell with a metamagic pre-included, but I'm always fiddling with something.

The breadth of the 3.5 spell library has lessened it somewhat compared to earlier editions, but I still do it.

Stilled versions of spells, 1 level higher. I'm trading research costs for each spell for not needing the feat. (And in earlier editions without Still Spell, it was the only way.)
Flavor changes (Mount calls a size Large riding dog instead of a horse)
Power changes (Mount calls a Griffon instead of a horse)
Removing caps. Like a 2nd level magic missile, without the 5 missile cap (otherwise identical to the 1st level spell).
Spells that never made the conversion to 3.5 (Oriental Adventures:Deflection is a favorite. Half damage from melee attacks is mighty nice.)

Before Orb spells, I used to research telekinetic spells that would launch items (generally expensive spell component gems) at high velocities, to bypass MR (SR), globe of invulnerability, anti-magic shell, etc.

[Jormengand]

Sorcerers "Gain an understanding of [new spells] through study".

[Florian]

I think it´s best to accept that there´s an infinite amount of spells out there, but someone must actually have the idea that a particular spell exists and develop the formula/prayer for it.

I mean, a deity is able to nearly grant any spell to a cleric, it´s actually the cleric who has to know what to ask for and develop the right prayer, not the other way around.

Same with wizard. You´ve actually got to know that "radiation" is a thing, before working on a "Radiation Blast" spell.

Again same with spells known caster. If you´ve got the knowledge locked inside you, you still must be able to trigger it somehow.

[Gullintanni]

For my Clerics, I've always fluffed spell preparation as Deity's granting their Clerics access to a pool of divine energy that responds to and is shaped by is shaped by the Clerics' prayers; with the outcome being that the desires expressed by those prayers manifest as prepared spells. Until a Cleric finishes their prayers, that pool remains unshaped. Accordingly, if a Cleric were to express unique desires, atypical to the doctrine of the faith, then they might shape, from that pool of divine energy, an entirely new spell.

[unseenmage]

Since researching custom spells are just a skill check, I once built a cadre of skill boosted sentient flying monkey effigies specifically modified with cheesed out Spellcraft just to research spells for me.

[icefractal]

As Jormengand mentioned, Sorcerers can learn spells off other lists and/or custom spells by "gaining some understanding of them through study". How long this takes and whether it costs anything is unspecified.

IMO, this is a pretty poor fit for the flavor that Sorcerers otherwise have. They don't 'study' their magic, generally, and since they're not learning their spells from any existing source, it's not clear why becoming able to cast Iceball would be any less likely than becoming able to cast Fireball.

Therefore, IMC, Sorcerers can pick custom spells as known spells, subject to the same GM agreement as a Wizard inventing new spells would have to get, but not requiring any extra cost.


Clerics are strange. Clerics are a somewhat poor fit between mechanics and flavor in 3.x. In various ways, but particularly in the matter of spell preparation - if a Cleric is receiving spells directly from their deity every morning, then you need an explanation why priests who are doing something important to the deity don't get a couple dozen Miracle spells that day.

And while you can make various such explanations, a lot of them have inconsistencies with existing rules and settings. Really the 4E flavor (a divine caster is granted a spark of power by their deity, which then develops independently of said deity) works better with the mechanics.

But sticking with the standard flavor, I would think that either:
A) Clerics can't have custom spells, it's either not possible or forbidden for deities to grant them.
B) Clerics can have custom spells just by asking, at least if it's toward serving the deity's goals.

[Clistenes]

They research spells the same way Wizards do.

The difference is, Clerics don't need to do it. They don't have to study and understand their spells, their god miraculously give that knowledge to them.

But if they want something knew, they can research and create it... but their patron deity learns it too, and he/she can grant it to other Clerics for free.

That's how I think that huge collection of clerical spells were created. Clerics researched them, and gods kept them, and they grant those spells to future generations of Clerics.



B) Clerics can have custom spells just by asking, at least if it's toward serving the deity's goals.

That is what Miracle is. When Clerics reach level 17, they become VIPs and get the phone number of their deity, and can ask for those custom spells.

Before that, you aren't important enough to merit your deity's personal attention, and you have to do with the standard package.

Now, if you are under level 17, and you are doing something REALLY important for your deity, I think they may find they awake with a couple Miracles memorized, as a gift from their patron.

[Flickerdart]

Clerics don't need to research anything at all. They just pray until their gods get a bunch of solars to do research for them.

[DrMotives]

Since researching custom spells are just a skill check, I once built a cadre of skill boosted sentient flying monkey effigies specifically modified with cheesed out Spellcraft just to research spells for me.

Please tell me you had them equipped with masterwork typewriters for that +2 boost to the check.

[unseenmage]

Please tell me you had them equipped with masterwork typewriters for that +2 boost to the check.

No, but I probably would have were the game set in Lantan instead of Aglarond. :smallsmile:

[Morphic tide]

Personally, I'd have it depend on the class.

Sorcerers could simply decide they want a custom spell known and get it, subject to DM approval and conditions like having specific Metamagic feats or preexisting Spells Known, or have it be an XP and ability score draining procedure that lets them make the new spell and add it to Spells Known. The same process would work identically for getting existing spells added to your Spells Known list, giving an expensive way to permanently add spells to the list of what that particular Sorcerer can cast. And Wizards have to research the spell from scratch to get it on the Wizard spell list, because it would be on the Sorcerer list only at that point, even if the Sorcerer makes scrolls of it.

Druids could create spells by means of studying creatures with such abilities. Fey, Plant and Magical Beast SLAs/spellcasting would be the "seeds" for what Druids can make, but it rarely turns out the same. The process itself could require spending XP and locating the creature to create new spells from. As an example, taking an Aranea corpse and duplicating Sorcerer illusion spells would be possible, but you'd more likely get Fey themed spells that act as illusory buffs and debuffs by messing with the opponent's mind through fake stimulus. Such as buffing Charisma with a Glamour. Or mind-effecting poisons and webs, because Aranea are Sorcerer-Spiders with an Illusion focus.

Clerics... All I can think of is "shove Outsiders into the Wizard process." Like, needing to Gate in a Solar to work out 7-9th level spells with Wizard-like research, only you have to have a Solar/similarly-high-HD Outsider with inbuilt casting to do this with. So you have to prep Gate and successfully talk a low-Epic encounter into helping you make cool new spells for all Clerics. Perhaps limiting the "theme" of the spells available for creation by the nature of the summoned Outsider and the Cleric's Domain access. Maybe require them to have certain feats relating to the nature of the spell being made, like various non-DMM Divine feats. Just... make sure they need serious effort.

Not sure about Bard, Paladin or Ranger.

[Psyren]

Kinda like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html)