Do I Make Saving Throws in Secret (As DM)

[Koningkrush]

Should I ask players to make saving throws, or should I do it for them in secret? I use Roll20, so there wouldn't be a way of them knowing.
Another way of asking this question; do players who are unaware of a saving throw effect automatically fail the save?

For example, Player A walks straight past an invisible ray trap of ultimate doom which requires a Dexterity save to prevent annihilation.

Do I . . .

1. Ask him to make a save, immediately alerting him that something's up.
2. Do the save in secret without telling him.
1a. Success means they'll probably metagame whether they mean to or not, because there will be a new sense of fear/caution whereas there wasn't before. Failure means that they at least feel they had more control over their fate.
2b. Success means absolutely nothing. They are unaware of what happened as is their character. Failure means I suddenly tell him that his character is dead. He feels cheated/confused and has no idea what just happened.

Should I instead use passive saving throws for traps? I don't see the rules ever mention this, but it's a compromise I suppose.

[MustacheManny]

I think you should let them do their own rolls. From a players perspective, even if they fail the roll they feel like they at least had a chance. If you just tell them that they failed and have just taken x amount of damage it can feel unfair because even though you rolled for them it feels arbitrary. Add some flavor to it, "as your walking down the cramped corridor you feel the slight tingle of ambient electricity and smell ozone, roll a Rex save" then it's either " you successfully dodge the ray blast by doing a running flip off the wall" or "you try to dodge out of the way of the incoming blast but are just moments too slow to avoid it." Heck, you can even let them describe to you how they dodged the thing and save you some effort.

[90sMusic]

If the group has been together for a while and there is mutual trust between the DM and the players, either should be fine because the players should be able to trust the DM not to screw them and the DM should be able to trust the players not to cheat.

If it's a new group, i'd tell them to make a roll.
If you aren't sure about a decision, always err on the side of the players having more fun because you should always remember D&D is a game and it is meant to be fun and enjoyed.

If they metagame: Worst case scenario is it's slightly annoying to you, but clever players would've been looking for traps anyway and as a DM you really don't want them all to die horrible deaths so it's fine. Just try to dissuade that kind of behavior by having them learn to differentiate between player knowledge and character knowledge.

If you roll in secret: Worst case scenario is someone gets killed/injured/trapped and they felt like they had no choice and no chance to avoid it. It felt completely forced on them because even if it was up to the dice, they weren't the one that rolled it and they never actually saw the die results.

One thing you could also do is don't tell them to roll for anything in particular (like a dex save), instead just tell them to roll a d20. As an experienced DM, you should be able to easily know which classes have proficiencies in what saves, you should have a good idea of their character stats (especially ones used commonly like dex, strength, and wisdom) and you know what level they are and thus their proficiency bonus. If you pull this little trick often enough and do it for all manner of innocuous things or sometimes you can do it for no reason at all, they'll become used to it and won't always immediately suspect something is going wrong when you prompt them to roll.

[pwykersotz]

The answer definitely depends on your table's playstyle, there's no right or wrong answer. However, I like to ask players to roll. I also like to give them the DC before they roll.

The reasons are fairly straightforward. First, my players are playing the game to play a game. If I take the die rolls away from them, it begins feeling more like a book than a game, and while there are times when that can be fun, it's not the general state that we prefer.

Second, that fear and trepidation you mentioned is generally a good thing. If a character is making a Dexterity save, presumably it is because they are actively noticing and dodging something. Obviously saves are abstracted things so this might not be true all the time, but my general rule is that when a character is actively doing something the player should be informed as to what it is.

Knowing the saving throw is the next level to the second point. I feel a player deserves to know how close something was. If he rolls a 24 and the DC was 12, it's a much different feeling than if the DC was 22. It actively creates immersion in the circumstance and the drama that ensues.

That all said, you put an interesting spin on it that puts this into a corner case. You specify a circumstance where everything is concealed. I personally would not do this. I call these zap traps (I picked up the phrase from some article, I have no idea if it's common use or not). Zap traps are generally uninteresting because they create the game state you describe. A player has no defense other than a die roll. You can't investigate a zap trap, you can't predict it, it's just randomly punishing for the sake of being randomly punishing.

Now if what I just said isn't applicable, if the party has fair warning that there's something dangerous ahead, if they can investigate and test the trap of ultimate doom and have the potential to circumvent it, then yes, a secret roll might be called for when one of them flubs up. However at that point, I would question the need of the roll to begin with. The general conceit of a Dexterity save is that the player is dodging something they can perceive. You can alter that, of course. But if the player truly can't perceive this threat of death, then it's like falling in lava. They just die. You describe as their body dissolves into a red mist as they walk past the line, confident they have tricked the death ray, and dying before they realize they were wrong.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

do players who are unaware of a saving throw effect automatically fail the save?

No, that would be a pretty dumb rule. Reflex saves in particular are there to protect them from things the character didn't even see coming. It's an automatic reflex, hence the name, when something happens.

Hiding rolls can be a great way to not give too much away, to hide DC's and especially in online play to speed things up, whether you use it or would rather let the players roll everything for their character is up to you and your players.

But, completely hidden rolls only make sense if one or more of the outcomes of the throw would leave their character unaware of what happened. If a monster is trying to control them through some sort of ability, they defend with a will save and succeeding leaves them unaware they were even attacked you can roll in secret, if the will save represents a conscious effort, a mental struggle against a hostile force, hiding the roll and not notifying the player of the outcome makes no sense. Because there character should now this happened. Reflex saves in particular tend to be things a character notices. A hole opens in the floor below them, they try to jump out of the way and succeed, just managing to clamp on to the edge of the hole. They pull themselves up, and suddenly they don't remember what happened and just let the next party member stumble into the same hole. That doesn't work that way. The same for the ray trap. The fact that they get a reflex save means they noticed something, if not the trap moving or the rays firing maybe they felt pain just as the ray started piercing their skin. And then they made a big dive towards "anywhere but here". If there's no way to notice you're going to die you don't get a reflex save, you just die.

[Tanarii]

IMO, YMMV, etc etc.

If the PC doesn't know he's making a save, then he shouldn't be making the save. They are reflexive defenses, but not completely unconscious ones. Especially the physical saves. Just making them tells the PC something is up.

[Sigreid]

In my experience, players are happier if they get to roll for their character. That doesn't mean you have to tell them why they rolled or if they pass or fail.

[Demonslayer666]

As both a player and a DM, I am strongly in favor of letting the players roll their saves. I would not like it if the DM made my saves for me. If I fail a con save when I have a +6 to it, it better be my fault (my roll). And as DM, I would not want it to be my fault if the player failed.

I also like to give (and have) the DC for the save and the source forcing the save in case any bonuses, resistances, or immunities apply. It just saves time.

Some DMs like to "build suspense" by withholding information until they get your save. Doesn't accomplish anything but make it confusing when you have to retcon stuff.

[RSP]

Players like to roll and I'd let them with the caveat that if Players start reacting to meta game info, then I'd change how it works and roll in secret.

[Biggstick]

Physical saves should definitely be made by the Player (Str, Dex, and Con). The mental saves are up to you as the DM, but I would still err on the side of Players making their own saving throws for mental stats as well.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: I mostly open roll now, as a GM. The players like to see the enemy attack rolls, and enemy saves, and tests the enemy makes. It makes it feel better when the enemy saves against your spell, or when you get vaporized by a Twin-Linked Godhammer-Pattern Lascannon, if you see the rolls that resulted in it.

Rolling behind the screen allows you to ignore the roll and have what you want happen. Everyone knows this, and assumes so, and they [and I] neither want to live because I decided to do one less damage than the number of wounds they have remaining, or die because I decided to vaporize them, or have their spell fail because I have a special NPC I don't want dominated.

What I'd do in this case is first, call for a perception test. If anyone passes it, I'd give them an idea that the trap exists, such as them noticing a slit in the floor for the trigger, or a faint glow, or a gap in the wall, or finely carved runes, or something. If nobody notices it, or they chose to ignore the sign, then the triggering character rolls reflex.

[Tanarii]

Rolling behind the screen allows you to ignore the roll and have what you want happen. Everyone knows this, and assumes so, and they [and I] neither want to live because I decided to do one less damage than the number of wounds they have remaining, or die because I decided to vaporize them, or have their spell fail because I have a special NPC I don't want dominated.
I don't play with DMs that use a screen any more.

I mean, I haven't played at all for over a year, only DMd. But in 5e in particular, there's no reason for a DM to roll in secret. The only reason to use one is if the DM want's to fudge, and I won't play with DMs that cheat.

[Laserlight]

Occasionally I'll tell the player to make a d20 roll but not tell him what the roll was for. Sometimes it's just to make them uncertain, no other effect.

Pretty much the only time I roll on behalf of the players is for their Insight.

Assuming I were silly enough to put a Save or Die trap in their way, I would certainly let them Save against it. One of the Barbarian abilities, Danger Sense, reads "At 2nd level, you gain an uncanny sense of when things nearby aren’t as they should be, giving you an edge when you dodge away from danger. You have advantage on Dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see, such as traps and spells." Since you only get Advantage vs effects you can see, that implies that you would make a normal save against effects you can't see. I don't have a problem with that--these are heroes, not ordinary turnip farmers.

And I'd tell the player to make the roll--he might want to use some ability that I don't recall he had.

[NinaWu]

Maybe mix it up a little; make some for them and let them roll others. Perhaps you could get them to pre roll them for you so you can use them at specific times in the adventure and they're not aware of it.

[lperkins2]

Don't make checks for the players, that's just bad. They might want to use inspiration, luck, or similar on the role. There also might be other things that come into play (reactions, features you forget about). Save your players' goodwill for things that matter.