PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Tome of Battle Conversion [PEACH]



Llama513
2017-05-19, 03:57 PM
I have play tested the class, and found it to be pretty close to balanced, the only thing is that there is the possibility of massive crit damage, but that is something that can be dealt with by the DM, or if you guys have an idea how to fix it. If you see any other issues feel free to point them out, with suggestions to fix them.

Link to the material (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox)


I am working on a new system to use for the maneuvers the link is here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1-QbJXcW-)

Sindeloke
2017-05-19, 05:49 PM
I only had time to check out the Crusader, but some thoughts:

Divine Blade is pretty weak. I can have a 1d8 sword in that hand, use Extra Attack, and do 2d8+2xStr, with a good chance of doing at least half that even if one attack misses, or I can wager everything on one swing at 2d6+Str+Cha. Even if Charisma is equal to Strength, your normal attack is still coming out ahead. This needs either a rider of some kind to make it worth it, or just to be a free one-hand radiant weapon that you use normally that deals 1d10 base damage. Also, how do I summon it? You mention I can re-summon with a bonus action, but not how I get it in the first place.

Defensive Insight, on the other hand, is probably too strong. You're already a 20 AC class, adding another +3-5 to that every single round without losing any damage whatsoever is going to make a huge chunk of the Monster Manual totally trivial. Also, what are the Blade Guide's hit points? Saving throws? You imply it can be hurt by giving it a respawn, but you don't say how it can be done.

Does the ground behind me recede when I'm in Mountain Fortress Stance, or do I just walk around creating little moraines everywhere I go? Also, we don't have standard actions anymore, dropping it to landslide on people should just be "You can use your action."

This isn't a balance thing but just a consistency/theme thing - you have a really broad mix of recharge times on things. Some are twice per short rest, some are twice per long rest, some are Cha mod per rest, some are three times per long rest (which is basically once per short rest). I would try to make these more consistent, if only so it's easier for a player to keep track.

But my biggest question is, why style maneuvers as spells, usable only a few times per day? The point of ToB was to give martials interesting, powerful things to do every turn that still felt distinctly different from spellcasting, and the different recovery methods were a big part of the flavor of each class. I would expect martial adepts to translate in 5e to purely short-rest classes, with a limited ability to get back maneuvers mid-combat in the same way that most casters can get back a few spells mid-day.

Llama513
2017-05-19, 08:01 PM
I only had time to check out the Crusader, but some thoughts:

Divine Blade is pretty weak. I can have a 1d8 sword in that hand, use Extra Attack, and do 2d8+2xStr, with a good chance of doing at least half that even if one attack misses, or I can wager everything on one swing at 2d6+Str+Cha. Even if Charisma is equal to Strength, your normal attack is still coming out ahead. This needs either a rider of some kind to make it worth it, or just to be a free one-hand radiant weapon that you use normally that deals 1d10 base damage. Also, how do I summon it? You mention I can re-summon with a bonus action, but not how I get it in the first place.

My bad on the wording of Divine Blade, it is supposed to work just like a normal weapon, my bad, to form it is a bonus action, I w


Defensive Insight, on the other hand, is probably too strong. You're already a 20 AC class, adding another +3-5 to that every single round without losing any damage whatsoever is going to make a huge chunk of the Monster Manual totally trivial.

My thought on that being that you only got the bonus against one opponent, and you are not able to use any of your other abilities as they are all bonus actions, but I can change what those are.


Also, what are the Blade Guide's hit points? Saving throws? You imply it can be hurt by giving it a respawn, but you don't say how it can be done.

It says in the description of the blade guide that it has half your hitpoints, its AC is 18 as for its saves, I will specify that it uses your saves


Does the ground behind me recede when I'm in Mountain Fortress Stance, or do I just walk around creating little moraines everywhere I go? Also, we don't have standard actions anymore, dropping it to landslide on people should just be "You can use your action."

The ground recedes after you move forward, I will fix the wording, as well as the action


This isn't a balance thing but just a consistency/theme thing - you have a really broad mix of recharge times on things. Some are twice per short rest, some are twice per long rest, some are Cha mod per rest, some are three times per long rest (which is basically once per short rest). I would try to make these more consistent, if only so it's easier for a player to keep track.

I will take a look at the uses of abilities and fix them to be more standard, thanks for pointing that out


But my biggest question is, why style maneuvers as spells, usable only a few times per day? The point of ToB was to give martials interesting, powerful things to do every turn that still felt distinctly different from spellcasting, and the different recovery methods were a big part of the flavor of each class. I would expect martial adepts to translate in 5e to purely short-rest classes, with a limited ability to get back maneuvers mid-combat in the same way that most casters can get back a few spells mid-day.

The reason that I went to treating maneuvers as spells was for balance purposes, as without lessening there power the classes would be much too powerful, unless you have a way to keep the power level of the maneuvers where they are comparable to spells, while allowing them to be on a short rest recovery. As I worry that would make the classes much too powerful, as they were in 3.5

Sicarius Victis
2017-05-20, 12:31 AM
Just a quick question about the Bloodclaw Master: Why does Rending Claws allow all Tiger Claw weapons and daggers, while the rest of the subclass doesn't allow daggers?

And while I'm at it, why do the Tiger Claw maneuvers add lightning damage? The two aren't even related.

Llama513
2017-05-20, 12:41 AM
Just a quick question about the Bloodclaw Master: Why does Rending Claws allow all Tiger Claw weapons and daggers, while the rest of the subclass doesn't allow daggers?

And while I'm at it, why do the Tiger Claw maneuvers add lightning damage? The two aren't even related.

The first question is most because i forgot to add daggers, as fir the lighning, it is a raw natural energy which is what tiger claw draws upon, and if I am remevering correctly the original ToB had tiger claw as lightning, I could be wrong abput that though

Sicarius Victis
2017-05-20, 12:56 AM
No, the original didn't have lightning damage. Lightning damage would have been magical, while Tiger Claw was entirely "mundane". Any extra damage it would do would be of the same type that the weapon does.

Same goes for the Sparking Steel cantrip, which wasn't even in the original version.

Llama513
2017-05-20, 01:07 AM
No, the original didn't have lightning damage. Lightning damage would have been magical, while Tiger Claw was entirely "mundane". Any extra damage it would do would be of the same type that the weapon does.

Same goes for the Sparking Steel cantrip, which wasn't even in the original version.

Fair enough, sparking steel, i justify however by looking at lightning throw, it is simply applying an insane amount of speed and precision to ionize the air and create a spark, as for tiger claw, I can change it to just ignoring resistance to bludgeoningc piercing or slashing, or ecplain it with ki being channeled into the attacks and manifesting as raw natural energy, thus lightning, and the reason I added sparking steel is that iron hwart needed another cantrip and I felt it wo yooild fit nicely

Sicarius Victis
2017-05-20, 01:18 AM
Ki is still more "magical" than the Tiger Claw discipline, what's wrong with just making it the same type as the weapon? And while we're at it, how does Lightning Throw justify it?

And honestly, Steely Strike would work as a cantrip. It's literally a weaker version of Reckless Attack, I'm not sure if anyone would bother using a spell slot on it.

Llama513
2017-05-20, 01:24 AM
Ki is still more "magical" than the Tiger Claw discipline, what's wrong with just making it the same type as the weapon? And while we're at it, how does Lightning Throw justify it?

And honestly, Steely Strike would work as a cantrip. It's literally a weaker version of Reckless Attack, I'm not sure if anyone would bother using a spell slot on it.

The ToB mentions that the martial adepts draw on ki to use thier abilities, so they are ki users like monks.

As for your second point, that is fair and I will take a look at that in the morning, I am keeping steely strike as it is based around insane speed and precision creating electricity, just as the iron heart manuever l8ghtning throw, sparking strike is simply the beginnings of the precision and speed.

Sicarius Victis
2017-05-20, 01:41 AM
The ToB mentions that the martial adepts draw on ki to use thier abilities, so they are ki users like monks.

Even in the original ToB, that was just referred to as a rumour. Adding to that, a 3.5 Monk's Ki-related abilities were Supernatural, while ToB manuevers were always Extraordinary unless explicitly called out as Supernatural. Even then, the Supernatural maneuvers are closer to spells fluff-wise than anything else.


As for your second point, that is fair and I will take a look at that in the morning, I am keeping steely strike as it is based around insane speed and precision creating electricity, just as the iron heart manuever l8ghtning throw, sparking strike is simply the beginnings of the precision and speed.

Honestly, with that "speed and precision", it's closer to Diamond Mind than anything else.

Llama513
2017-05-20, 01:47 AM
Even in the original ToB, that was just referred to as a rumour. Adding to that, a 3.5 Monk's Ki-related abilities were Supernatural, while ToB manuevers were always Extraordinary unless explicitly called out as Supernatural. Even then, the Supernatural maneuvers are closer to spells fluff-wise than anything else.



Even with the "speed and precision" idea, it doesn't fit. To ionize air, not only would you need molecular levels of precision, you'd also need a molecularly thin weapon, even assuming that it would work. Besides, that "speed and precision" is closer to Diamond Mind than anything else.

Fair to both, however, i have a lot of manuevers that already just ignore resistance which is why I'm hesitant to completely drop the element with out having something, and iron heart is the only discipline tbat in tbe original had manuecers that created sparks, via their strikes, thus my thought of having sparking steel, that and i think it is a really cool concept to have a strike that creates a spark to another targst

Sicarius Victis
2017-05-20, 01:57 AM
Fair to both, however, i have a lot of manuevers that already just ignore resistance which is why I'm hesitant to completely drop the element with out having something, and iron heart is the only discipline tbat in tbe original had manuecers that created sparks, via their strikes, thus my thought of having sparking steel, that and i think it is a really cool concept to have a strike that creates a spark to another targst

No, Iron Heart never had any maneuvers that created sparks. The closest to that were the Desert Wind maneuvers. And just ignoring resistance isn't that bad. Remember that these are martials, not mages. Except with Desert Wind and one or two other maneuvers, all of the original ones did the same damage type as the weapon. Except for Shadow Hand's Shadow Noose, which seemed to do untyped damage.

Point is, while adding magic-related damage types to the magic-related disciplines is good, it's generally unnecessary and not very fitting for the more mundane ones.

Llama513
2017-05-20, 01:04 PM
No, Iron Heart never had any maneuvers that created sparks. The closest to that were the Desert Wind maneuvers. And just ignoring resistance isn't that bad. Remember that these are martials, not mages. Except with Desert Wind and one or two other maneuvers, all of the original ones did the same damage type as the weapon. Except for Shadow Hand's Shadow Noose, which seemed to do untyped damage.

Point is, while adding magic-related damage types to the magic-related disciplines is good, it's generally unnecessary and not very fitting for the more mundane ones.

Looking back at it, I realize that I misinterpreted Lightning Throw, but I think that having a bit of elemental damage adds something to Iron Heart, and with that in mind I am going to keep sparking steel, and as for your suggestion of changing Steely Strike to a Cantrip, I can see that as it is it should be a cantrip, and I am making that change, however the only 1st level manuever from Iron heart that is left to work with is Steel Wind, which wasn't that great, as it simply let you hit two opponents with one strike, which you can do with extra attack, my thought is to have it be that strike all enemies within five feet of the opponent you strike with this maneuver, as it is a wide arcing swing, or you strike all opponents in a half-circle with a 5 foot radius in front of you, I think the second wording works better, and captures the essence of what Steel Wind was better.


As for Tiger Claw, I can change it back to weapon damage, but I would prefer to have elemental damage come from some other source, since that makes it so 5 of the disciplines are just weapon damage, which I can do, but I like the idea of having something a bit more flashy, I could give Lightning to Diamond Mind, as they are based around mind numbing speed and precision, and that could be used to explain the lightning from there blade, maybe.

Llama513
2017-05-27, 01:23 PM
I will be changing Tiger Claw to just weapon damage, and will be leaving diamond mind as weapon damage, I'm not sure if I am going to remove sparking steel or not, as it does give a basic start fir a higher mamuever in Iron heart, but that maneuver could be reworked to not use lightning.

I have not had a chance to look at the uses per rest for class abilities, but that should be looked at and tweaked, when I get time to change the maneuvers, hopefully that will bring the classes to where they are more consistent with 5e, and make it so the maneuvers are closer to what they were in ToBA.

I took a look at the battle master, and with the power oof the maneuvers I don't think that starting, at 4 is a good idea, my thought is to give them a number of maneuvers per short rest that starts at 2, and goes up at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th the level for the maneuvers that are short rest will max out at 5th level, the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th will be one a long rest because of the power behind their manuevers, I cpuld also just go with the warlock system, but with the fact that almost all of their manuevers are melee I think giving them a few more will work out fine

Llama513
2017-05-28, 06:18 PM
Sorry about the triple post, but for this post it needs to be a separate post.

I have changed the Tiger Claw to be weapon damage, and changed the maneuvers to use the warlock system for their maneuvers.

Llama513
2017-06-01, 10:09 PM
I am working on a new system for maneuvers, that may lead to changes in health, and other things, the link to the developing system is in the OP

Bump. I added the other maneuvers in, I will be adding the details on how to read the maneuvers in a bit, but I think it is a good start, I haven't gone through and really decided what should be short and long rest quite yet, I have a basic system that I was using that I think gives a good basis but I am sure that there will be maneuvers that will be changed to either short or long rest.


Expect the new system to be implemented fairly soon, and with it possible changes to health.

Bump. I have put in the new system for maneuvers, there may still be a few details that need ironing out, that will come with playtesting, but I believe that the classes should still be playable

Llama513
2017-06-28, 04:34 PM
I have been thinking about it and realized that with the system where it is right now, at high levels it may be too powerful, as there isn't a limit on the number of long rest manuevers (which are the stronger maneuvers) that you can prepare, however I am not sure since I haven't gotten to play test it, and the trade off for having the stronger maneuvers is that you can't use as many as a full caster, or some one that chose to prep short rest maneuvers, but I'm not sure if that is a big enough trade off with where they sit right now.

One thought that I had was to make it so you can only prepare a number of long rest maneuvers equal to 1/3 of the total number of maneuvers you can prepare, but at the same time I don't want to limit the choice of players or set a limit by level requirement: works, since it allows you to prepare all long rest if you wish, but you won't be able to have prepared a full set of the extremely powerful maneuvers (level requirement 15 and up).

Another option was to remove the long rest maneuvers, but that takes out a lot of cool maneuvers and material

The other option is to make the long rest maneuvers into a separate feature of sorts that allows you access to a limited number that recharge on long rest, call them something like Legacy Techniques and explain the limit on the number and the strain with the fact that in order to use them you have to tap into the very essence of the sublime path, which puts a large amount of strain on the body and mind, I personally prefer this option most since it gives a flavorful and believable explanation for what is happening

The last option that comes to my mind is to lower the damage of the long rest maneuvers

I went a head and introduced the Legacy Techniques into the system, I hope I worded it correctly, it should say that your Legacy Techniques share a pool of number of uses per long rest, like maneuvers per short rest