Ding Ding Ding! Xykon vs. Redcloak

[FoE]

First, I apologize if this thread has been done before. I'm new here, so cut me some slack.

I figured I should start this thread now, because this upcoming Hinjo vs. Redcloak battle could go either way. Hell, maybe both ways (they might BOTH get killed).

Anyway, I've wondered for a while: in a throw-down between Xykon and Redcloak, who would win?

For the sake of argument, let's say both are prepared and healthy for the battle. Xykon is a bad-ass high-level lich with an array of magic spells. But Redcloak has been shown as pretty damn tough during the battle of Azure City; plus, as a cleric, he can take down undead pretty easily, even liches.

Thoughts, people?

[Lord_Butters_I]

Redcloak. He has a ton of buffs, much more HP, and a single Heal spell will most likely kill Xykon.

[Krellen]

Well, a bit of SoD spoiler here:
It's already happened, and Xykon wins. Redcloak's his bitch. There's really no fight.

[Scarab83]

If Xykon was anywhere near the kind of evil genious he should be, he would have plans made just in case Redcloak turned mutinous.

[yoshi927]

Well, if you ask me, it all depends on initiative. Sine Xykon apparently has Sudden Maximize, if he could get in a maximized meteor storm in the first round that might be the win. If not, Redcloak might be able to Turn Undead. Redcloak wouldn't win it with just a Heal, because when Xykon became a Lich his HD was increased to d12.

[Gralamin]

If Xykon was anywhere near the kind of evil genious he should be, he would have plans made just in case Redcloak turned mutinous.

Start of Darkness Spoilers:
He does, in two ways.
#1 The Monster in the Darkness will kill Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon.
#2 Redcloak will continue to serve Xykon loyally, because of the terrible choice he made.

As an aside, I wonder whatever happened to that black gem...

With the above in mind, Xykon would win. Xykon is also pretty clearly stronger.

[lokycat]

It's already happened, and Xykon wins. Redcloak's his bitch. There's really no fight.
Redclok is Xykon's bitch out of choice, not because Xykon made him in to his bitch. He is only following orders because of his faith to "the dark one" goblin god. He is using Xykon for his own purpose.

If Xykon was anywhere near the kind of evil genious he should be, he would have plans made just in case Redcloak turned mutinous.
Redcloak is the real evil genius, Xykon is only a mad man with lots of power and no limit on how far he will degrade him self. Xykon "mite" have a back up plan(other then The Monster in the Darkness) in case Redcloak turns on him but I KNOW Redcloak HAS a plan in case Xykon gets out of hand.

My gold in on Readclok.:smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

Redcloak could probably manage it if he had time to prepare, since he's more the planning type (Xykon can plan, but Redcloak seems more suited to it.) In a straight-out fight, though, Xykon would probably win purely from the higher levels.

(Another factor: For the most part, whenever they have minions, they tend to be goblinoids loyal exclusively to Redcloak. Even if Xykon can slaughter them dozens at a time, it seems unlikely that Xykon could beat both Redcloak and a colossal army at once.)

[mockingbyrd7]

It really could go either way. Initiative would have a very large impact on the fight. Assuming there are no bouncy balls or MitD, I might be inclined to say Redcloak. Powerful healing, insanely powerful summons, anti-undead abilities and big time buffs, vs. just raw power. I say Redcloak.

[the_tick_rules]

hmm if both stood toe to toe i'd say xykon, if redcloak is able to like summon a a few beasties ahead of time i'd give him the edge.

[Cute_Riolu]

You're forgetting Redcloak can't turn undead. He can command undead, though.

[mockingbyrd7]

You're forgetting Redcloak can't turn undead. He can command undead, though.

:redcloak: :smallamused:: Command Undead!
:xykon:: Yes master.
:redcloak: :smalleek:: It worked on him??
:xykon:: Yes, master.
:redcloak: :smallamused:: All right, throw a Meteor Swarm at your feet.
:xykon: :smallamused:: Yes master. (throws meteor swarm at Redcloak) Sucker.

[factotum]

It's a total mismatch. From evidence in Start of Darkness it's become obvious that Xykon is at least level 20, and possibly even higher (he casts a LOT of 9th level spells during his fight with Dorukan). Redcloak, on the other hand, only learned to cast 7th level spells (thus making him 13th level) a year or so before the comic started. Unless Redcloak has gained at least 5 or 6 levels over the course of that year, Xykon would crush him like an insect.

As for clerics being good against undead, don't forget that Xykon is a lich and therefore gets a bonus (is it +2 or +4? I forget) to his effective level for Turn and Rebuke effects. Redcloak wouldn't have a hope of using those against him. I seriously doubt a single Heal would kill him, either--he'd get a Will saving throw against it for a start.

[Green Bean]

Exactly. Xykon has an epic level challenge rating. At bare minimum, he's ECL 22. Redcloak is level 13 or 14. He doesn't stand a chance.

:redcloak:- I can cast Heal, you know.
:xykon:- Energy Drain.
:redcloak:- Dang.

[Irenaeus]

Regarding the Heal-thingy:

SoD spoiler:

Xykon states that he has a ring which "specifically shielded me from those positive energy attacks". Wouldn't that make him immune to a Heal-spell?

[mockingbyrd7]

Damn, I NEED to get Start of Darkness...

[Ithekro]

Umm...
Doesn't V have that ring now?

[lokycat]

Umm...
Doesn't V have that ring now?

No mention of "that" ring, it may have gotten destroyed wen Xykon got thrown in to the gate or he mite still have it....But if it did get detroyed in the gate how come V has his ring of Wizardry.:smallannoyed:

I don't think he has "that" ring anymore.

[Chronos]

Most of the equipment that Xykon had in Dorukan's Dungeon got either looted by the Order of the Stick, or destroyed in the explosion. So that's not a factor.

From Start of Darkness, we know of at least two aces Redcloak has up his sleeve:First of all, he can cast Disintegrate (Destruction domain), which is quite devastating against undead. Since it's a domain spell, he can only cast it once per day, but that's likely all he would need.

Second, he's carrying around a friggin' artifact, and we don't know most of its abilities. It's quite possible, for instance, that the Crimson Mantle causes its wearer to automatically make all saving throws, or that it grants considerable spell resistance. And it might, for all we know, also grant some offensive capabilities. Even granted that Xykon is epic or the equivalent, an artifact could still turn the tide against him.

[Kurald Galain]

If Xykon was anywhere near the kind of evil genious he should be, he would have plans made just in case Redcloak turned mutinous.

You mean the kind of genius that prefers watching TV to planning a siege? Oh yeah.

[O.T.R]

what's to stop Redcloak from simply destroying the phylactery (sp?)?

[factotum]

Why did you put that in a spoiler? Anyway, Redcloak COULD destroy Xykon's phylactery, but it would have precisely zero effect on Xykon because his soul isn't currently in it. He would still have to destroy Xykon himself, who would no doubt be somewhat irritated at the destruction of his phylactery!

[O.T.R]

Why did you put that in a spoiler?

Still a bit gunshy about the forum's rules. The last forum I was on didn't have any.

[Kjata]

Not to mention Xykon's phylactery is redcloaks Holy symbol, so destroying it wouldnt be good for him.

[ChopSticks28]

Not to mention that even if Xykon will be destroyed and Redclock will have the chance of destroying his phylactery he won't do it.

[Green Bean]

Most of the equipment that Xykon had in Dorukan's Dungeon got either looted by the Order of the Stick, or destroyed in the explosion. So that's not a factor.

From Start of Darkness, we know of at least two aces Redcloak has up his sleeve:First of all, he can cast Disintegrate (Destruction domain), which is quite devastating against undead. Since it's a domain spell, he can only cast it once per day, but that's likely all he would need.

Second, he's carrying around a friggin' artifact, and we don't know most of its abilities. It's quite possible, for instance, that the Crimson Mantle causes its wearer to automatically make all saving throws, or that it grants considerable spell resistance. And it might, for all we know, also grant some offensive capabilities. Even granted that Xykon is epic or the equivalent, an artifact could still turn the tide against him.

Assuming Xykon is level 19 (since he knows at least two 9th level spells that's the lowest he can be), he'll have, on average, 129hp. Redcloak is most likely level 14 or 15. Since disintegrate does 2d6 per caster level, that means that it'll do, on average 98 damage. Redcloak would have to get pretty lucky to take out Xykon with one spell. Of course, Xykon is free to respond in kind, and all it takes is one Energy Drain spell and he loses anywhere between one and four caster levels. If Xykon has Sudden Maximize, then Redcloak will be limited to level 3 spells.
As for the cloak, automatically passing saves is probably a bit extreme even for an artifact, seeing as the only other way to do that is to become a Greater Deity. Spell resistance, maybe, but when your opponent is epic level, that starts to matter less and less.

[NerfTW]

It's pretty clear in SoD that

Redcloak can't go toe to toe with Xykon. His whole argument with Right Eye was about what would happen if they failed to kill him.

Further, he IS undeniably Xykon's "bitch". The whole scene at the end was that Red Cloak had no choice about using Xykon to complete the plan, because going back to square one would mean the deaths of his brother and family would have been for nothing.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

It would also be a matter of timing. If Redcloak were to suddenly turn on Xykon after Xykon's battle against Soon, Xykon would end up in the phylactery(sp), which Redcloak could then destroy. Scratch the lich.

Start of Darkness Spoiler (One covered already in this thread, but what the heck)

Redcloak can still be taken out by the MitD, but had Redcloak turned on Xykon immediatly after the battle with Soon, the MitD would not have been there to protect Xykon. It's always a matter of troop positioning.
A stand up fight goes to Xykon, but Redcloak would not get into a stand up fight against Xykon.

It's like the Miko vs. Belkar threads... In a stand up fight, Miko pwns Belkar. But a fight where Belkar got to use his hide amd move silently? Miko "won," but would have "lost" at the same time. That is, if Shojo had not pulled off his dog in time.

[GoC]

Redcloak could probably manage it if he had time to prepare, since he's more the planning type (Xykon can plan, but Redcloak seems more suited to it.) In a straight-out fight, though, Xykon would probably win purely from the higher levels.

(Another factor: For the most part, whenever they have minions, they tend to be goblinoids loyal exclusively to Redcloak. Even if Xykon can slaughter them dozens at a time, it seems unlikely that Xykon could beat both Redcloak and a colossal army at once.)

Epic (or almost epic) spellcasters eat armes for breakfast and if you're including minions include MitD (who'll beat Redcloak easily).

Personal note:I used to think epic wizards were unbeatable. Then I discovered the Exceptional Deflection epic feat. :smallmad:

btw: Recloak is >= lvl 15. Check the Class and Level geekery thread.

[yoshi927]

Actually, Miko would've lost that if Belkar just coup-de-graced after he knocked her out with the lead sheet. :smallbiggrin:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Actually, Miko would've lost that if Belkar just coup-de-graced after he knocked her out with the lead sheet. :smallbiggrin:

Yep! And it's the one and probably ONLY time Belkar even considered a "Fair Fight" as a way of solving a problem.

Still, it was only because his ultimate goal was to make Miko fall.

[Fitzclowningham]

I don't see why Xykon wouldn't use the same strategy he used on Dorukan. Game, set, match.

[FoE]

I forgot to account for the phylactery around Redcloak's neck. I suppose he could just smash it. :smallredface:

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts, folks. I think everybody brought up some good points; I can't say the argument is totally resolved. If there is a consensus, I think it would be that Redcloak probably can't match Xykon in an all-out brawl, but Redcloak would have the edge if he got to strategize beforehand.

[Yeril]

I would say redcloak, he has much more advtantage and intelligence for planning.

since hes the offensor, he can stock up on spells he knows will easily beat xykon, and spells which will easily defend against xykons attacks

or he can do this..

:redcloak: "SIR SIR SIR WAKE UP WAKE UP ITS IMPORTANT!" :smalleek:
:xykon: "What is is redcloak? why are you disturbing me at this time of the morning don't you know I need 8 hours rest to regain todays spells." :smallmad:
:redcloak: "Yes. Yes I do." :smallamused:
:xykon: :smalleek:

[mockingbyrd7]

I would say redcloak, he has much more advtantage and intelligence for planning.

since hes the offensor, he can stock up on spells he knows will easily beat xykon, and spells which will easily defend against xykons attacks

or he can do this..

:redcloak: "SIR SIR SIR WAKE UP WAKE UP ITS IMPORTANT!" :smalleek:
:xykon: "What is is redcloak? why are you disturbing me at this time of the morning don't you know I need 8 hours rest to regain todays spells." :smallmad:
:redcloak: "Yes. Yes I do." :smallamused:
:xykon: :smalleek:

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

I mean, Redcloak summons an elephant or two in the middle of the night, wakes up Xykon before he's charged, and smashes him. Xykon can't do a thing.

[David Argall]

You are still matching an epic level vs a merely high level. Redcloak fights Miko. He loses. The watchers are not surprised. The lich fights Miko and wins in round 1. The lich fights Roy and is merely annoyed enough to get serious against him. Roy manages to stand equal/plus vs Miko.

It all works out the same way. In anything close to a fair fight, it's the lich in a walk. Of course Team Evil does not exactly believe in fair fights, but Redcloak is really going to have to be careful to get enough advantage to overcome that 6+ levels. Just about anything that doesn't near kill in one round and the lich might retreat to recover, and the next day it is goblin toasting.

[factotum]

Xykon can't do a thing, assuming he used all his spell slots the day before. 99% of the time he won't have done that. As for killing him with a fiendish elephant, not a chance--he has well over a hundred hit points and damage reduction out the wazoo.

Frankly, in order for Redcloak to beat Xykon, you have to construct some really bizarre and/or outlandish scenarios that just aren't likely to happen.

[yoshi927]

Even assuming that Redcloak caught Xykon spell-less, he's still going to have enough HP and Damage Reduction to run for :mitd:, so it's a moot point whether he has spells or not, even though it's likely he will.

That is, if Redcloak can make it an unfair fight, so can Xykon in this way.

[mockingbyrd7]

Even assuming that Redcloak caught Xykon spell-less, he's still going to have enough HP and Damage Reduction to run for :mitd:, so it's a moot point whether he has spells or not, even though it's likely he will.

That is, if Redcloak can make it an unfair fight, so can Xykon in this way.

...Huh. Good point. In a straight fight, Xykon would win.

*looks around*

Oh, come on! Is it THAT rare in this world that someone backs down from their initial opinion after met with reason??

[Querzis]

It look like to me some people voted for their favorite character on that one even though it make no sense. Come on, Redcloak is a level 15 cleric in robe, Roy with his sword especially harmfull against undead has more chance against Xykon then him. Redcloak would barely be a minor annoyance for an epic challenge like Xykon. Meteor swarm, Xykon win, the end. Even if Redcloak use his minions, Xykon got a 15 damage reduction and is immune to crit. The 20 000 hobgobelins could hit him for 3 days and he woudnt even feel it. If you want to have some kind of challenge then do Roy vs Redcloak or Durkon vs Redcloak because except epic level like Durokan and Soon, nobody stand a chance against Xykon.

[Secris]

I agree, from everything I've read in the forums and seen in the comics, Xykon comes out hands-down.

I do have a couple questions however. Let's say, Redcloack actually puts together some sort of evil mastermind plan and kills Xykon. The next step is, obviously, to break the phylactery so Xykon can't come back for revenge. My question is, how hard would it be for Redcloack to get a new (un)holy symbol? Is it just something he can pull out of the bag, or would he be seriously be gimping himself?

And, let's just say, similar situtation, Redcloack tries, but fails, to usurp Xykon. Fors ome reason(let's just say he has a new holy symbol), he breaks the phylactery before the fight. Now, Xykon kills Redcloack, ladeda... how hard it is it for Xykin to get a new phylactery? Is it possible at all?

[factotum]

How easy it is for Redcloak to get a new holy symbol would probably depend on how annoyed his god is when he destroys the old one. It's entirely possible that the Dark One actually wants Xykon around, and would therefore be more than a trifle miffed that Redcloak destroyed him.

New phylactery? Not sure about that. The SRD just says that the lich has to make his own phylactery, which costs 120,000gp and 4,800XP. It doesn't specify that he can't make another if the first one is destroyed, so I would assume it's possible to do so.

[Aquillion]

Even assuming that Redcloak caught Xykon spell-less, he's still going to have enough HP and Damage Reduction to run for :mitd:, so it's a moot point whether he has spells or not, even though it's likely he will.

That is, if Redcloak can make it an unfair fight, so can Xykon in this way.Do you really want any strategy that relies on :mitd:, though? Redcloak could send a goblin to play monopoly against him, and have Xykon (re-)dead by the time the game is done.

I don't think Redcloak could ever win a fair fight, but he doesn't have to--as Xykon's right-hand man, he could wait until exactly the right time to strike. (After Xykon has been beaten by some ragtag heroes and is stuck in the Phylactery would be an optimal choice, although I don't know if that counts as a win for Redcloak.)

[Scarab83]

Epic lich vs. High level cleric?

My money will be on Xykon every single time. I think people underestimate his intelligence. He IS the big bad evil guy after all, and he wouldn't have gotten into a position like that without doing something right.

[GoC]

Xykon almost anywhere.
Redcloak if he hires/builds/mind-controls some big monster to surprise attack Xykon then hits him with a disintegrate just as Xykon kills the monster.
Or maybe equip his army with wands of fireballs?

This is like Batman vs. Superman. Batman wins if he executes a sneak attack, preemptive strike with lots of preparation.

[Scarab83]

Xykon almost anywhere.
Redcloak if he hires/builds/mind-controls some big monster to surprise attack Xykon then hits him with a disintegrate just as Xykon kills the monster.
Or maybe equip his army with wands of fireballs?

This is like Batman vs. Superman. Batman wins if he executes a sneak attack, preemptive strike with lots of preparation.

The only way Batman would ever win is if he used Kryptonite. :smallwink:

[yoshi927]

Do you really want any strategy that relies on :mitd:, though? Redcloak could send a goblin to play monopoly against him, and have Xykon (re-)dead by the time the game is done.

I don't think Redcloak could ever win a fair fight, but he doesn't have to--as Xykon's right-hand man, he could wait until exactly the right time to strike. (After Xykon has been beaten by some ragtag heroes and is stuck in the Phylactery would be an optimal choice, although I don't know if that counts as a win for Redcloak.)Well, even if MiTD is somewhat childish, he'd drop whatever he was doing to help Xykon. At least, that's the way it seems to me. :smallbiggrin: And, while Redcloak's planning, there's a definite possibility that he'll be back for revenge too.

[PyroPwnageWizie]

In a one on one battle, with no Mitd, full hp, spells for this battle prepared of ahead of time for this exact reason, I would say it would depend on what lvl thay each are, and in the players hand book which I read, an evil cleric cant cast heal spells, so that keeps redcloak from doing that ,but he does have higher hp and buffs, but he isn't wearing armor by the looks of it, so I would have to say Xykon

[PyroPwnageWizie]

Also I believe Redcloak trying to rebuke Xykon wouldn't work because Xykon probably has a killer will save and higher lvls.

[Ithekro]

Can't a cleric of a high enough level cast a spell of the reverse of his normal spell set (cure light wound becomes inflict light wound)? Wouldn't that would for an evil cleric as well?

[Aquillion]

This is like Batman vs. Superman. Batman wins if he executes a sneak attack, preemptive strike with lots of preparation.But every time it actually happens, Batman wins, because Batman (being Batman) would only attack under those circumstances anyway, while Superman, being Superman, isn't going to lay some elaborate trap in return and usually won't see it coming.

Xykon isn't Superman, though. He could have all kinds of contingency plans (or a Contengency, if you prefer) that Redcloak doesn't know about.

Of course, given that we've seen Xykon soundly defeated twice and no back-up plans have come into play, that might not be the case... but it might also be that he has them designed specifically against Redcloak, since, well, he's evil, Redcloak's evil, that's how it works.

[Nu]

Xykon may not be all that smart, but he's epic-level and probably loaded to the gills with magical items. If Redcloak was near Xykon's level of power, Redcloak wouldn't have lost to Miko. In a straight throw-down, Xykon, no question. Redcloak could possibly engineer a trap for Xykon, but even then I'm not sure if he could overcome Xykon's raw power, unless it was a REALLY good trap.

[yoshi927]

The only plan I can think of that would have any chance of success is releasing the Snarl on Xykon and getting the hell away, but that way Redcloak is screwed too, if not then, eventually.

Also, Xykon might have a contingency plan. He's capricious, not stupid.

[Querzis]

Xykon as exactly one spell to do and he win. Meteor swarm. Finished. Even if Redcloak make his save and even if Xykon has pretty bad roll, its very unlikely he'll survive as long as Xykon target him (he didnt target Roy but the dragon by the way). Any magical trap Redcloak can think of or create wont work on Xykon saves, any summon of Redcloak would be barely a minor annoyance for Xykon and his damage reduction. Xykon win, take a nap, play monopoly, torture some hobgolins, ask a cleric to rez Redcloak and kill him again just for fun. It wont even be a fight but another random killing for Xykon. Redcloak is not even really stronger then Roy or Miko!

[lokycat]

I don't understand were you all get that :xykon: is an evil mastermind(or anything close), you people are giving him WAY to mush credit, I believe the only plan he has is :mitd: and maybe a contingency spell. (according to the rules you can only have one on your self so Id think it be set up against an enemy or an adventuring party, not :redcloak:) He has no other plans because he dos not plan(not to far anyhow), he is driven by impulse and his own amusement. I Thought he was THE BIG BAD to until I read Start of Darkness, gnaw I know that he is just being used and fooled.

(bettor not say anything els)If you have not read Start of Darkness you don't have a clue.

The Batman:redcloak: Vs Superman:xykon: is a perfect analogy. Lets say both know were each other are and they both know they are going after each other. No sneaking and no surprise attack.
Batman:redcloak: still wins because he is smarter, more cunning and has planed and run this fight throw hid head over a 1,000,000,000+
Superman:xykon: may be close to opnipitant but that makes him over confidant, relaxed and in no way prepared to face Readclok...errr I mean Batman.:smallbiggrin:

My gold is still on Redcloak.:smallamused:

[Lord_Butters_I]

Negitive energy protection and no energy drains, various shielding spells and minimal fire/lightning damage, summon monster X and instant ally, Heal and Xykon is dead or almost dead depending on how well his d12 rolls landed, too many anti-undead attack spells to count (searing light, sunbeam, cure critical wounds, heal, etc) or if all else fails antimagic field and beat the crap out of him. He's a venerable human sorcerer, his physical stats must be pathetic.

Xykon limits himself in his options because he's rediculously overconfident. He will not plan ahead, he just trusts to raw force. And all of his raw force can be reduced or negated by planing and buff spells.

Frankly, Planiar Ally, Summon Monster X, buff spells including Negitive Energy Protection, and a couple of heals and Xykon is doomed. Xykon has invested most if not all of his spells into raw force, and he's undead. Both very bad when fighting a cleric, the kings of buffing and slaughtering undead. If xykon had a better spell selection he would stand a chance, but as he is xykon would get creamed. As soon as his energy drain was negated and his meteor swarm reduced in strength xykon would have no way of stopping redcloak. Summons would keep him busy, and like I said a single heal spell would either kill or severely injure him. He couldn't survive two.

[Green Bean]

Yeah, buff spells and summons would certainly help. And it's a good thing that Xykon has no access to the Dispel Magic tree and no obscenely high caster level check. :smallamused:

To paraphrase the lich himself,

:xykon:- There is a level of power against which tactics cannot prevail.

[Scarab83]

He's an epic level lich, people, not some run of the mill skeleton or zombie.

[Nu]

Negitive energy protection and no energy drains, various shielding spells and minimal fire/lightning damage, summon monster X and instant ally, Heal and Xykon is dead or almost dead depending on how well his d12 rolls landed, too many anti-undead attack spells to count (searing light, sunbeam, cure critical wounds, heal, etc) or if all else fails antimagic field and beat the crap out of him. He's a venerable human sorcerer, his physical stats must be pathetic.

Xykon limits himself in his options because he's rediculously overconfident. He will not plan ahead, he just trusts to raw force. And all of his raw force can be reduced or negated by planing and buff spells.

Frankly, Planiar Ally, Summon Monster X, buff spells including Negitive Energy Protection, and a couple of heals and Xykon is doomed. Xykon has invested most if not all of his spells into raw force, and he's undead. Both very bad when fighting a cleric, the kings of buffing and slaughtering undead. If xykon had a better spell selection he would stand a chance, but as he is xykon would get creamed. As soon as his energy drain was negated and his meteor swarm reduced in strength xykon would have no way of stopping redcloak. Summons would keep him busy, and like I said a single heal spell would either kill or severely injure him. He couldn't survive two.

I think you severely underestimate Xykon's durability. He withstood the attacks of the Ghost of Soon and dozens of ghost-paladins(presumably with Smite Evil) for an extended period, long enough to defeat a number of them using very ineffective spells. Redcloak, on the other hand, went down much quicker when faced with only a handful of the ghosts and one or two strikes from Soon. A quick flight spell from Xykon would render Redcloak's touch spells useless(and Redcloak may have a difficult time dispelling them as I'm pretty sure Xykon is a much higher level than Redcloak).

As for brute force fight within an antimagic shell? Redcloak is seemingly unarmed and Xykon has lots of damage reduction, and as far as I can see a Lich's touch attack still functions in an antimagic shell(though Paralyzing Touch does not), so that heavy armor Redcloak is wearing isn't gonna do him a lot of good. Xykon would easily win in an antimagic shell.

I'm also assuming Redcloak is around level 20ish(slightly below) and Xykon is over or around level 30. I'd say Xykon has at least 6-7 levels on Redcloak and probably even more.

[Scarab83]

I think some people figured out that Xykon was around 19-20 while Redcloak was around 14-15. Lord knows how they came to that conclusion, though.

[factotum]

I'm also assuming Redcloak is around level 20ish(slightly below) and Xykon is over or around level 30. I'd say Xykon has at least 6-7 levels on Redcloak and probably even more.

Those are massive over-estimates, I would say. We know from SoD that Redcloak was level 13 a year or two ago--it seems unlikely he would have gained 7 levels in such a short time. As for Xykon, evidence in SoD (the number of 9th level spells he uses against Dorukan) indicates that he's at least level 20. Even before SoD came out, the best guesses for their respective levels said Redcloak was 15-16 and Xykon was 18+, so the clues in SoD just reinforce the pre-existing guesstimates.

Your main point--Xykon being much higher level than Redcloak--is definitely not in dispute, though.

[factotum]

Negitive energy protection and no energy drains, various shielding spells and minimal fire/lightning damage, summon monster X and instant ally, Heal and Xykon is dead or almost dead depending on how well his d12 rolls landed, too many anti-undead attack spells to count (searing light, sunbeam, cure critical wounds, heal, etc) or if all else fails antimagic field and beat the crap out of him. He's a venerable human sorcerer, his physical stats must be pathetic.


Physical stats don't matter a damn when you have 15 damage reduction, and Redcloak isn't a melee fighter anyway--he fought Miko with spells while she tried to carve him up with her katana. When used offensively Heal has a Will save, and Xykon, being Undead, is going to have a good one of those. In addition, because Xykon is much higher level than Redcloak, Redcloak may well be struggling to make his saving throws on some of those spells. He could win if he was incredibly lucky and Xykon kept rolling 1s, but on average he loses, no contest.

[Green Bean]

I'm also assuming Redcloak is around level 20ish(slightly below) and Xykon is over or around level 30. I'd say Xykon has at least 6-7 levels on Redcloak and probably even more.

Your estimates are a little high. A level 30 character wouldn't just be able to wreck Azure City. He'd be able to kill everyone in it, raise them as undead, reduce the buildings to sand and then summon a harem of succubi for the heck of it. And that would be one spell. Xykon is estimated to be between a level 19 and 20 sorcerer with a lich template (+4 level adjustment), and Redcloak is apparently level 15.

[Nu]

Er, right, I may be shooting a bit high in the levels for those two there, but I hold firm to the belief that Xykon is quite a bit higher level than Redcloak. Five or six levels at least. The way Roy was hardly putting a dent in Xykon despite having a sword that was almost certainly able to bypass Xykon's DR and making many attacks made me think epic level, but I guess I could be shooting a bit high.

[Green Bean]

Er, right, I may be shooting a bit high in the levels for those two there, but I hold firm to the belief that Xykon is quite a bit higher level than Redcloak. Five or six levels at least. The way Roy was hardly putting a dent in Xykon despite having a sword that was almost certainly able to bypass Xykon's DR and making many attacks made me think epic level, but I guess I could be shooting a bit high.

The difference is four or five levels; that's a pretty big gap. Also, the sword may or may not have overcome Xykon's DR as a lich's DR can only be overcome by a magical bludgeoning weapon, which Roy's sword isn't. On the other hand, the blade is said to be particularly harmful to the undead, so it may have properties capable of overcoming it.

[GoC]

The Batman:redcloak: Vs Superman:xykon: is a perfect analogy. Lets say both know were each other are and they both know they are going after each other. No sneaking and no surprise attack.
Batman:redcloak: still wins because he is smarter, more cunning and has planed and run this fight throw hid head over a 1,000,000,000+
Superman:xykon: may be close to opnipitant but that makes him over confidant, relaxed and in no way prepared to face Readclok...errr I mean Batman.:smallbiggrin:

My gold is still on Redcloak.:smallamused:

You're kidding, right?:smallconfused:
Even the most devote Batman fans admit that in that situation Superman is less than a millisecond away from killing Batman!
If Superman is anywhere within 1000 miles he will just use his laser eyes (they rival cyclops'!) on Batman's position, lifts up a nearby mountain and throws it on whatever remains, don his lead armo and finaly blast a hole in the mountain fly down it and give whatever remains a single punch. This takes about one second.

[lokycat]

Is Batman dude, You know he has some "diamond coted mirror" or some "super sonic sound amplifier" to take superman down. Superman like Xykon is all Raw power and completely unprepared.

Batman like Redcloak has run this challenge throw his head over a million times so there for is completely prepared and ready for the challenge at any time.

AS for Lvs, he is a accomplished cleric of about 16-18Lv by his own right and Xykon mite not be your "run of a mill" undead but he is still undead and Redcloak is a cleric. (not to mention THE read cloak witch we still don't know what it dos, it mite give him heir Lv spells, feats or amplify his spells, were talking about an artifact. SoD explains it a bit but dos not do in depth on the Red Cloak)

Xykon mite be 20Lv(doubt he is any heir then 20) but were talking about Xykon hear, he is nothing but a meteor swarm and lightning bolt and his a sorcerer so he mite be able to cast Hi Lv spells but he has no access to true power like Wish, Time stop, power word kill, ext. because he dos not think like that. He thinks "bash it until it brakes".

My gold is still on Redcloak:smallwink:

[leo_neil316]

Isn't readcloak more like 14/16?

And I gotta say, if any adhd type sorcerer lich picking spells totaly based on how cool they sound kinda guy was gonna have 'Power word kill' or 'Time stop' it'd be xykon. I allways reckoned he'd be lvl 21 myself. I mean you can see him doing something like this can't you?


:xykon: Oooh yeah, I went up a level!
:dead thing: .......................
:xykon: Hey, that means I'm epic now. Sweet!
:deadthing: ........................
:xykon: New spells huh? Lets see, allready got that sweet sounding 'meteor swarm, whats next on the list?
:deadthing: ........................
:xykon:Power word kill huh *reads* wait, so all I have to do is say 'Die' to kill people. I'll have some of that.
:deadthing: ........................

[David Argall]

Redcloak has yet to cast a 9th level spell = max level of 16. But he has cast several 8th levels, which makes 15 the minimum. 16 is the more likely guess.

The lich freely casts 9th level spells = minimum of 17th, and likely much higher.

When the lich talks to Roy, presumed 13th, he estimates himself as 7-8+ levels high, which equals 20-21, or more. Some of the more detailed estimates I have seen around here argue for 22-24.

[lokycat]

:xykon: Oooh yeah, I went up a level!
:dead thing: .......................
:xykon: Hey, that means I'm epic now. Sweet!
:deadthing: ........................
:xykon: New spells huh? Lets see, already got that sweet sounding 'meteor swarm, whats next on the list?
:deadthing: ........................
:xykon:Power word kill huh *reads* wait, so all I have to do is say 'Die' to kill people. I'll have some of that.
:deadthing: ........................


LOL...ok ok, I see him having Power word Kill.:smalltongue:
It all depends on his restrictive school of magic...he is a necromantic sorcerer so he had to get rid of 2 schools of magic.

I really don't thing Redcloak is anything less then 16Lv.:smallconfused:
I have seen the thread about the character Lv but is all speculations sins Rick refuses to give any Lvs to his characters, for good reason.:smallsmile:

Ether way I still think Redclok would win but I have a feeling well eventuly see it wen..

SoD spoiler
Xykon refuses to sacrifice him self for the goblin god. I have a feeling Redcloak already has a plan in place.

[Traker]

redcloke mite but i dout it:belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar: :belkar:

[Dausuul]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

I mean, Redcloak summons an elephant or two in the middle of the night, wakes up Xykon before he's charged, and smashes him. Xykon can't do a thing.

Except not sleep. Because Xykon doesn't have to.

[yoshi927]

Except not sleep. Because Xykon doesn't have to.:smalleek:

You just won the thread.


And two cookies. :smallbiggrin:

By the way, I don't care how smart Batman is. There is, as Xykon says, a level of power that no tactics can overcome. Well, he might be able to get kryptonite or something, but that's his only chance, whereas there's nothing like that that can be done about Xykon. Rebuking, possibly, but Xykon almost certainly has from six to eight HD more than Redcloak. As for the artifact, I haven't read SoD, but unless the Red Mantle is something like "automatically makes all saves" or "Cast spells as a level 30 cleric", I'm not seeing it altering the outcome significantly.

[Green Bean]

LOL...ok ok, I see him having Power word Kill.:smalltongue:
It all depends on his restrictive school of magic...he is a necromantic sorcerer so he had to get rid of 2 schools of magic.


Actually, sorcerers cannot specialize. They can cast from all schools.

And I have to disagree with the metaphor of Batman. For one, Redcloak has not demonstrated nearly the level of tactical savvy that Batman does. Yes, the Titanium elementals were creative, but his tactics boiled down to 'smash the walls, and overrun the city'. So, a more appropriate metaphor, seeing as both are spellcasters, would be Superman versus a slightly smarter but much weaker Superman.

[lokycat]

Actually, sorcerers cannot specialize. They can cast from all schools.
You are right and I am wrong.:smalltongue:
I read the rule book and is true, only wiz can specialize.


And I have to disagree with the metaphor of Batman. For one, Redcloak has not demonstrated nearly the level of tactical savvy that Batman does.
ok ok, Redcloak is not as savvy as Batman but compared with the tactical planing that Xykon dos it mite be like superman V.s. Batman.:smalltongue:
Redcloak is a planer and tactician, Xykon is a power house.
Xykon mite be smart but your talking about a powerful Evil mad man NOT an evil genius.

[Green Bean]

ok ok, Redcloak is not as savvy as Batman but compared with the tactical planing that Xykon dos it mite be like superman V.s. Batman.:smalltongue:
Redcloak is a planer and tactician, Xykon is a power house.
Xykon mite be smart but your talking about a powerful Evil mad man NOT an evil genius.

Xykon does show a fair bit of intelligence. For instance, in SoD

Redcloak's brother plots to kill Xykon with a magic dagger, but it turns out he knew, and used the attempt to test Redcloak's loyalty. It was very Machiavellian.

And I have to disagree with the 'madman' label. Xykon simply wants to rule the world. He's ruthless, self-centred, and powerful, but not mad.