The one and true Optimize this Feat #23:Ragewild Fighting from Races of Eberron p.118

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

This week's Feat is Ragewild Fighting from Races of Eberron p.118

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on June 7th, 2017

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq

Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web: Darrin & Morcleon
Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Planes Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503445-Optimize-this-Feat-14-Dual-Plane-Summons-from-Dragon-313) from Dragon Magazine #313: To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat #15: Formation Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505193-Optimize-This-Feat-15-Formation-Expert-from-Complete-Warrior-p-110) from Complete Warrior: Darrin
Optimize this feat #16: Bloodspiked Charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506408-Optimize-this-Feat-16-Bloodspiked-Charger-from-PHB2): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat #17: Betrayal of the Spirit linked from Dragon Magazine #336 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509597-Optimize-This-Feat-17-Betrayal-of-the-spirit-linked-from-dragon-magazine-336): Menzath
Optimize this Feat #18: Truebond from DMG2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510434-Optimize-this-Feat-18-Truebond-from-DMG2&p=21574324): unseenmage
Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511910-Optimize-this-Feat-19-Eldritch-Corruption-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-122#post21592555): Darrin.
Optimize this Feat #20: Imbued Healing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512996-Optimize-this-Feat-20-Imbued-Healing-from-Complete-Champion-p-60&p=21632245) from Complete Champion: Lateral & Troacctid
Optimize this Feat #21: Create Spectral Spawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514470-Optimize-this-Feat-21-Create-Spectral-Spawn-from-Dragons-of-Faerun-Web-Supplement) from Dragons of Faerun Web Enhancement: WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat #22: Pain Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516560-Optimize-this-feat-22-Pain-Mastery-from-Savage-Species) from Savage Species: WhamBamSam and Menzath

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #24: Mastery of the Dead from Player's Guide to Eberron p.
Optimize this feat #25: Cleave
Other feats in the pool: detach from Savage Species, Elder Giant magic, stamp, battleshifter training, Multi-tasking, Tainted Druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a<br /><br />http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a), Spell Mantle (LEoF p.112)

[daremetoidareyo]

Ragewild Fighting (Races of Eberron, p. 118) [Racial, Tactical]

Prerequisite Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Shifter,
Benefit Ragewild Fighting enables the use of three tactical maneuvers (whether you are shifting or not).
Instinctive Strike: Ragewild warriors know that the magic wielded by many of Eberron's powerful creatures can confuse the mind and cloud a warrior's judgment, and so they learn to react to magic forcefully. Whenever you fail a Will save against a spell (excluding spells with "harmless" in their saving throw entry), you can make a single melee attack as an immediate action before the spell takes effect.
Rattle the Weakling: To use this maneuver, you must hit the target creature with a melee attack in the first round, then make a melee attack using Power Attack (taking a penalty of at least -5 on your attack rolls) in the second round. Any creature of your size category or smaller hit by this attack must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or be dazed for 1 round.
Brutal Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe and successfully hit with a melee attack. If this charge attack hits, you can spend an action point to deal extra damage equal to your Strength bonus (1-1/2 times your Strength bonus if you use a two-handed weapon).
Special Battleshifter Training and Ragewild Fighting are inimical to each other, and no character can have both tactical feats. If a character chooses to take one of these feats while already having the other, he gains the benefits of the new feat but forever loses access to the first (and does not gain a new feat to replace it).

Instinctive Strike is probably the juiciest one...

[Thurbane]

This is actually not too horrible a feat.

Al three tactical maneuvers have some potential (particularly the first, and to a slightly lesser degree, the second).

Would the wording of Rattle the Weakling means it only can be used in rounds 1 and 2 of a combat, or could you potentially daze someone every other round (or every round if you keep hitting the same target with a -5 Power Attack)?

[Zancloufer]

I read the second one as if you have hit an enemy while power attacking with at least -5 to hit and have hit the enemy in the previous round they must make a fort save or be dazed for a round. As such it's implied that you can chain daze someone into submission in theory.

There are feats that only work if for you in the first round of combat, Rapid Assault (ToB) and Dire Charge (Epic) off the top of my head. They both specify In the first round of combat. Not round 1 then round 2, first round of combat.

Overall I think the hardest part of this feat will be what melee builds do you make with 6 levels in shifter?

[WhamBamSam]

This is one to which I've given some thought.

Instinctive Strike is, as you note, pretty cool. Your caster allies can help you trigger it if enemies don't, so you can in effect add Snake's Swiftness as a rider to their Mass Charm Person or whatever. One thing that I've noticed is that Slippery Mind lets you potentially fail a save against the same spell twice, and so get Instinctive Strike two rounds in a row. You could also use things like Snap Kick and Improved Trip/Knockdown to try to add a few more attacks in before succumbing to the spell effect, whatever it is.

The classic, if overhyped, Mage Slayer build, using the Mage Slayer feat line, and Witch Slayer would welcome Instinctive Strike as an extra chance to stab hopefully squishy wizards. Witch Slayer even gives you Slippery Mind for the above trick.

I think Rattle the Weakling also has potential. Not for a standard BSF type, as anything that you get to pound on for two consecutive rounds should be dead rather than just dazed. That means we're looking for ways to spread our attacks around a bit. Paimon's Dance of Death, the Desert Tempest Maneuver, Bloodstorm Blade, and the Whirling Blade spell are favorites of mine in this regard.

Paimon Binder is reasonable even with the racial Cha penalty. It even gives you Slippery Mind for the above Instinctive Strike combo. Binder 9/Knight of the Sacred Seal (Paimon) 5 should work reasonably well. You'll have a lot of Dex, so you'll probably want to mix in some reach AoO stuff as well.

A Swordsage isn't the worst thing to be and plays reasonably well with Shifter stat mods. Even better, it means that Bloodclaw Master fits into the build nicely, and you can actually get enough uses of racial Shifting to do something with it. Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Swordsage 4/Bloodclaw Master 5/Swordsage +1 with Longtooth Elite and one other Shifter Feat has Shifting 4/day, Desert Tempest, and a Bite that deals a point of Con damage with each hit to use with maneuvers, so that's pretty cool.

Bloodstorm Blade lets us get Boomerang Daze shenanigans in on the dazing fun as well. I'd guess that Thunderous Throw does not allow you to make a ranged attack with Instinctive Strike, but some DMs might rule otherwise.

Whirling Blade is awkward for a Shifter, since they have Cha and Int penalties. If you take a flaw to get Human Heritage and Able Learner at 1st level, you can get it as a Wis based spell via Chameleon (off the Divine Bard list), but being so Wis focused makes it so you don't get Instinctive Strike unless you're willingly failing saves against your allies' spells. But since Ragewild Fighting works when not shifting, a Racial Emulation Changeling Wizard Gish could use it just fine (though they'll admittedly also likely have a decent Will save).

[Vaz]

Be a Shifter Gish with the Craft Contingent Feat, and craft a ton of nested Craft Contingent spells; of dominate person and have it targeted on yourself. You fail it, and you can control your own actions, and then instantly dismiss it. No risk off-turn attacks.

[flappeercraft]

The third ability could be used for an ubercharger

[eggynack]

Instinctive Strike is, as you note, pretty cool. Your caster allies can help you trigger it if enemies don't, so you can in effect add Snake's Swiftness as a rider to their Mass Charm Person or whatever.
This is so close to being real interesting to me. Not because of other casters, but because of you as a caster. The feat doesn't seem to specify that the caster needs to be not you, after all. So, imagine a classic melee build with a one level dip into cleric. You pounce over to stab your opponent repeatedly, as one would expect, and then, whabam, you cast vision of punishment on yourself as a swift action, fail your will save on purpose because that's a thing, fail to nauseate yourself because the duration is non-existent at that caster level, and hit your opponent in the face an extra time at your best iterative. Which is sweet. Only problem is that this feat is an immediate and the spell is a swift, meaning the action addition trickery doesn't really work. It actually sounded like a real build too. Not like cleric dips aren't a thing, and you even get the spell spontaneous style, so you can do other junk with the slots.

Still, the overall plan of hitting yourself with spells sounds interesting. Maybe with an item or something? Might be one of those cool but implausible things. Gotta say, I was having these beautiful visions of a barbarian with basically three best hits every round, starting really early on too. Perhaps this is my vision of punishment. Either way, if an ally is going to toss spells at you for the extra attacks, getting some protection from the nauseate condition and having them fling visions at you isn't the worst way to go. The sacrifice cost isn't a non-issue, but the idea of adding attacks that cheaply is cool. Everyone that prepares spells can cast it too.

Edit:
Be a Shifter Gish with the Craft Contingent Feat, and craft a ton of nested Craft Contingent spells; of dominate person and have it targeted on yourself. You fail it, and you can control your own actions, and then instantly dismiss it. No risk off-turn attacks.
Combining your nested craft contingent thing with my low caster level vision of punishment thing might be the cheapest and best way to pull the overall trick off. You Can't get more than one attack a round, because of the action cost, but an attack at any time is pretty cool at this price.

[Inevitability]

Fang Bonetalker

LG Longtooth Shifter Cloistered Cleric of Wee Jas 3/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ruathar 1/Death Delver 1/Eye of Horus-Re 3

Starting ability scores (32-point buy):
STR: 11
DEX: 12
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 14
CHA: 15

All increases go into charisma.

Fang's flaws are Vulnerable and Shaky.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cloistered Cleric 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration +4, Heal +4, Hide +2, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (Religion) +4, Spot +2
Alertness, Heretic of the Faith, Extra Turning
Domains (Magic, Pride, and Sun), Spellcasting, Turn Undead


2nd
Cloistered Cleric 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Craft (Basketweaving) +4, Concentration +5, Heal +5
-
-


3rd
Cloistered Cleric 3
+1
+3
+1
+3
Concentration +6, Heal +6, Hide +3, Knowledge (Religion) +6
Extra Turning
-


4th
Fighter 1
+2
+5
+1
+3
Intimidate +4
Power AttackB
-


5th
Crusader 1
+3
+7
+1
+3
Hide +4, Knowledge (religion) +8
-
Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5, Maneuvers, Stances


6th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
+4
+7
+1
+5
Concentration +9
Longtooth Elite
-


7th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2
+5
+7
+1
+6
Craft (cooking) +4
-
Divine Recovery


8th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
+6
+8
+2
+6
Craft (woodcarving) +4
-
-


9th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4
+7
+8
+2
+7
Craft (blacksmithing) +4
Ragewild Fighting
-


10th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5
+8
+8
+2
+7
Craft (spoons) +4
-
Armored Stealth


11th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
+9
+9
+3
+8
Knowledge (Local (Mulhorand)) +2
-
-


12th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7
+10
+9
+3
+8
Spot +4
Extra Spell (Bone Talisman)
Divine Impetus


13th
Eye of Horus-Re 1
+10
+9
+3
+10
Craft (war) +1
-
Greater Turning, Radiance


14th
Death Delver 1
+10
+11
+3
+12
Spot +6
-
Deathsense, Spellcasting, Rebuke Undead


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8
+11
+11
+3
+13
Craft (mines) +4
Extra Turning
-


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 9
+12
+12
+4
+13
Martial Lore +4
-
-


17th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
+13
+12
+4
+14
Spot +8
-
-


18th
Eye of Horus-Re 2
+14
+12
+4
+15
Spot +10
Extra Turning
Everlight


19th
Eye of Horus-Re 3
+15
+13
+5
+15
Spot +12
-
Touch of the Sun


20th
Ruathar 1
+15
+13
+7
+17
Spot +14
-
Word of Friendship, Gift of the Elves



The only items needed by this build are Wands of Incite. Some Unguent of Timelessness would also be nice, but isn't required, and the same goes for any wisdom- or charisma-boosting items.

Fang's early life was similar to most adventurers: after surviving an event that killed most or all of his family, he was adopted by one or more people that taught him a set of highly specific yet effective skills. In his particular case, the event was a horde of undead wiping out his home village, and his adopters a group of undead-slaying followers of Wee Jas, who they called the Night Sun.

Fang roamed the lands as warrior-priest, righting wrongs and sending undead back to their graves, until his travels returned him to his ancestral forest one day. He dug up one bone of each dead shifter, fashioned them into simple trinkets, and carried them with him on his journeys.

Over time, the shifter mastered a technique no other could replicate: by invoking his dead kin's spirits, he could attack with inhuman speed and frenzy, completely annihilating opponents within seconds.

Also, he learned about Horus-Re from some dude who got to Greyhawk from Faerun somehow later in life, almost died, and also did something cool for elves.

There we go, build justified.

Because yes, there is a point to this build. I present the Ancestral Whirlwind: a ridiculous piece of action economy abuse that allows for several dozen attacks as what's essentially a free action.

To employ the Whirlwind, Fang must be next to one or more enemies. If necessary, he can run 120 ft. as a full-round action: this build doesn't need those.

Fang then casts Incite using a wand as a swift action, centering the area on himself and voluntarily failing the saving throw. He expends a turn undead attempt to gain a swift action, which is used for the free attack Instinctive Strike now grants. If it hits, the target takes some damage as well as a point of constitution damage.

Not satisfied with one attack, Fang uses Divine Impetus twice more. The first action is used on another Incite, the second on another Instinctive Strike.

Say, how often can Fang do this, anyway?

A charisma modifier of +5 give him 8 basic turn attempts. The four times he took Extra Turning increase this to 24.
Also, he has 8 basic greater turning attempts, increased to 16 by two Extra Turnings.
Similarly to the greater turnings, he has 16 uses of rebuke undead per day.

This is good for a total of 56 turning attempts.

However, Fang can also cast Bone Talisman to get one turning attempt per casting. By using all non-domain slots of 2nd-level and above to cast it, another 25 turning attempts can be obtained. This number increases if creative use of Unguent of Timelessness lets Fang stockpile a few days' worth of talismans, and becomes nearly infinite if some quintessence can be purchased.

For now, let's stick to the presumed 25 attempts, for a total of 81 turning attempts. Each attack requires two turning attempts to execute, except the first, which requires only one. Therefore, Fang can make 41 bite attacks while expending only a single swift action.

Note that each attack also deals a point of constitution damage, and let's just say there's very little in the book that has more than 41 constitution. Anything immune to it is still eating 41 attacks, and in such a situation Fang might as well be using a heavily enchanted manufactured weapon.

TL;DRAbuse Instinctive Strike and Divine Impetus, deal crazy damage.

[Dimers]

Surely there's a spell that lets you roll a Will save every round ... ?

If you have immunity to a damage type or a condition, do you still roll saves against that at all?

[Zancloufer]

Stuff like Freedom of Movement doesn't actually make you immune to stuff like grapples and Hold Person, you just are not impeded by them. Unfortunately Hold Person requires a Full round action to attempt a reroll on the save.

Mind Blank on the other hand makes you outright immune to the effects so yeah. I would personally rule that if you are immune to something you don't need to roll a saving throw as you have no chance of failure.

EDIT: Some quick searching revealed that both a 3rd Ed Dragon Magazine and PFSRD explicitly state that you do not roll saving throws for effects that you are immune to AND they also gain immunity to any secondary rider effects if they are immune to the main carrier effect.

Nothing 3.5, but both 3.0 and PF say no so. Oddly enough this only applies to saving throws. If you are immune to critical hits PFSRD still states that you can take extra rider effects trigger by crits even though you are immune to them (0-o)

[WhamBamSam]

Divine Impetus is a standard action by strict RAW, which is going to cause problems.


This is so close to being real interesting to me. Not because of other casters, but because of you as a caster. The feat doesn't seem to specify that the caster needs to be not you, after all. So, imagine a classic melee build with a one level dip into cleric. You pounce over to stab your opponent repeatedly, as one would expect, and then, whabam, you cast vision of punishment on yourself as a swift action, fail your will save on purpose because that's a thing, fail to nauseate yourself because the duration is non-existent at that caster level, and hit your opponent in the face an extra time at your best iterative. Which is sweet. Only problem is that this feat is an immediate and the spell is a swift, meaning the action addition trickery doesn't really work. It actually sounded like a real build too. Not like cleric dips aren't a thing, and you even get the spell spontaneous style, so you can do other junk with the slots.

Still, the overall plan of hitting yourself with spells sounds interesting. Maybe with an item or something? Might be one of those cool but implausible things. Gotta say, I was having these beautiful visions of a barbarian with basically three best hits every round, starting really early on too. Perhaps this is my vision of punishment. Either way, if an ally is going to toss spells at you for the extra attacks, getting some protection from the nauseate condition and having them fling visions at you isn't the worst way to go. The sacrifice cost isn't a non-issue, but the idea of adding attacks that cheaply is cool. Everyone that prepares spells can cast it too.

Edit:
Combining your nested craft contingent thing with my low caster level vision of punishment thing might be the cheapest and best way to pull the overall trick off. You Can't get more than one attack a round, because of the action cost, but an attack at any time is pretty cool at this price.I thought you might be able to get a familiar to cast it on you, but that'll at least require a wand and some UMD investment, as I can't find a Will save touch spell for it to hold.

Is there a way besides Delay Spell to make the spell take effect after your turn instead of during it? Then your Immediate action would be eating the following turn's swift instead and we wouldn't have these issues. Linked Power on a Mantled PsyWar to tie something that has a will save to one of your buffs so you get a free attack on the following round.

You can always cast a spell at a lower CL if you want to, so your allies can just drop their Vision of Punishment to CL 1 or 2 even if you're not immune to nausea.


Surely there's a spell that lets you roll a Will save every round ... ?Most combats don't last that long, so Slippery Mind letting you roll the save two rounds in a row should be sufficient. There are spells that grant a new will save every round, but they all seem to be overly high level and too debilitating to use on yourself effectively.

[Doctor Awkward]

Dimension Hop is a touch spell that teleports the affected target 5 feet per two caster levels, and allows a will save to negate.

A Duskblade Shifter could charge an opponent to take advantage of Brutal Charge, and then Quickcast that spell on themselves, gaining a free attack before they leave.

Then in the next round they could charge again, triggering another Brutal Charge and Rattle the Weak simultaneously.

[Inevitability]

Divine Impetus is a standard action by strict RAW, which is going to cause problems.

That's a 'monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes' level of RAWness, though. I admit you are technically right, but it's glaringly obvious how the ability was supposed to be used.

[WhamBamSam]

Dimension Hop is a touch spell that teleports the affected target 5 feet per two caster levels, and allows a will save to negate.

A Duskblade Shifter could charge an opponent to take advantage of Brutal Charge, and then Quickcast that spell on themselves, gaining a free attack before they leave.

Then in the next round they could charge again, triggering another Brutal Charge and Rattle the Weak simultaneously.That has the same problem as eggynack's Vision of Punishment idea. Spending your swift on Dimension Hop means you can't take the immediate action required for Instinctive Strike until after your turn.

You could stab yourself on a late iterative of a Full Attack Channel and get a will save that way.


That's a 'monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes' level of RAWness, though. I admit you are technically right, but it's glaringly obvious how the ability was supposed to be used.On the other hand, free action Divine Impetus is clearly borked, and I don't think any DM will actually allow it to work that way (especially since it doesn't by RAW). The ability is largely useless as a standard action and completely broken as a free action, and in practice is likely to be somewhere in between (1/round free action seems a popular houserule).

[daremetoidareyo]

On the other hand, free action Divine Impetus is clearly borked, and I don't think any DM will actually allow it to work that way (especially since it doesn't by RAW). The ability is largely useless as a standard action and completely broken as a free action, and in practice is likely to be somewhere in between (1/round free action seems a popular houserule).

That's the houserule I would go with. And if we were doing action points again, action points could get you spares.

Blood Magus dip with a dagger that procs will saves?


OOOh I found it:
Live my nightmare spelltouched feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) + truestrike + way to be immune to phantasmal killer fort save death

[Doctor Awkward]

That has the same problem as eggynack's Vision of Punishment idea. Spending your swift on Dimension Hop means you can't take the immediate action required for Instinctive Strike until after your turn.

Immediate actions take your next turn's swift action, not your current one.

First round: Charge -> Quickcast spell (swift) -> Swing weapon (immediate) -> teleport 40ish feet away.

Next round: (No swift action) Charge (for both other maneuvers simultaneously).

[WhamBamSam]

Blood Magus dip with a dagger that procs will saves?

OOOh I found it:
Live my nightmare spelltouched feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) + truestrike + way to be immune to phantasmal killer fort save deathStrikes me as a bit sketchy, but it could resolve our action economy issues, since we can cast Kauper's Quickblast as a free action.

Becoming immune to just the fort save death but not the spell as a whole is tricky, and this seems like a lot of work for what ultimately boils down to a weaker version of Quickened True Strike.

A psionic character (likely an Ardent or PsyWar) with the Magic Mantle could possibly use Linked Power to tie something that requires a Will save to one of their buffs, and so get an extra attack on the following turn. That's admittedly weaker than just linking to Synchronicity unless you actually gain something out of failing the save though.

EDIT:
Immediate actions take your next turn's swift action, not your current one.

First round: Charge -> Quickcast spell (swift) -> Swing weapon (immediate) -> teleport 40ish feet away.

Next round: (No swift action) Charge (for both other maneuvers simultaneously).
Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.Emphasis mine. It needs to be after your turn for it to eat the next turn's swift action.

[Inevitability]

OOOh I found it:
Live my nightmare spelltouched feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm) + truestrike + way to be immune to phantasmal killer fort save death

Well, that's easy. Just up your fortitude save until it's +13 (adjust upwards if your charisma modifier is positive) and take Steadfast Determination.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, that's easy. Just up your fortitude save until it's +13 (adjust upwards if your charisma modifier is positive) and take Steadfast Determination.

or steal your RKV build and throw insane defiance in there too.

---

Question: how many immediate actions can you perform during someone else's turn?

[Vaz]

You can only make one Immediate action until after the end of your next turn, IIRC.

[Inevitability]

You can only make one Immediate action until after the end of your next turn, IIRC.

Not if you get a large and exhaustible supply of swift actions somewhere.

[Vaz]

Actually no.


You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn

The immediate action is different, and even if you have NI Swift Actions. Immediate Actions are different, but take up your Swift Action. You can use Swift Actions when Flat Footed, but you cannot use an Immediate Action while flat footed. They are two different things.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure if either of these will work...

Chelicera from MM3:

"Mimicry (Ex): A chelicera can repeat any noise it hears as a free action. This ability works much like ghost sound (Will DC 17 disbelief), except that the sound is always centered on the chelicera itself."

So... Shifter Druid 5/MoMF 7. Can you spam Mimicry on yourself to trigger Instinctive Strike? If so, then infinite melee attacks by mumbling to yourself.


This one would be much tougher to pull off. Alkilith from Fiend Folio:

"Command Ooze (Sp): An alkilith can control the actions of any ooze within 60 feet as a free action. The ooze is allowed a Will save (DC 17) to resist."

It's an actual SLA rather than an (Ex) mimicking a spell, so it should trigger Instinctive Strike... but getting into an alkilith form with SLAs active would be pretty darned tricky, and then somehow keeping that while changing your creature type to ooze... urk. That'd be some pretty fancy rules-wankery.

[Inevitability]

I'm not sure if either of these will work...

Chelicera from MM3:

"Mimicry (Ex): A chelicera can repeat any noise it hears as a free action. This ability works much like ghost sound (Will DC 17 disbelief), except that the sound is always centered on the chelicera itself."

So... Shifter Druid 5/MoMF 7. Can you spam Mimicry on yourself to trigger Instinctive Strike? If so, then infinite melee attacks by mumbling to yourself.


This one would be much tougher to pull off. Alkilith from Fiend Folio:

"Command Ooze (Sp): An alkilith can control the actions of any ooze within 60 feet as a free action. The ooze is allowed a Will save (DC 17) to resist."

It's an actual SLA rather than an (Ex) mimicking a spell, so it should trigger Instinctive Strike... but getting into an alkilith form with SLAs active would be pretty darned tricky, and then somehow keeping that while changing your creature type to ooze... urk. That'd be some pretty fancy rules-wankery.

No infinite attacks, though. Using an immediate action on your own turn still eats up your swift action, so unless you somehow get more of those you'd be stuck with one extra attack. Nice, but probably not worth spending 7 levels on.

[Darrin]

No infinite attacks, though. Using an immediate action on your own turn still eats up your swift action, so unless you somehow get more of those you'd be stuck with one extra attack. Nice, but probably not worth spending 7 levels on.


Those are both free actions. They also aren't identified as quickened, either, so the limit per round is however many times the DM will allow it to work.

Aha! It helps if I actually read the text of Instinctive Strike! Yes, the melee attack is an immediate action, so no, not infinite.

[Doctor Awkward]

Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

EDIT:Emphasis mine. It needs to be after your turn for it to eat the next turn's swift action.

Huh... weird.

What a terrible rule. I shall now actively ignore that line in my games, rather than be unknowingly ignorant of it.

[Vaz]

Huh... weird.

What a terrible rule. I shall now actively ignore that line in my games, rather than be unknowingly ignorant of it.

It counts as your swift action, but it's still not a swift action. That you may have more than one swift action is regardless of the fact that you cannot use another immediate action if you have already used one.

An immediate action doesn't become a swift action on your turn, it just takes the place of it instead.

[daremetoidareyo]

Spellteef 2/duskblade 3/other x
Assuming we could find a will save spell, can we get some iteration of arcane channel/steal spell effect/instinctive strike to work? Maybe even channel/ hit an ally that is flanked with a buff and a nonlethal weapon (beneficial weapon?), steal the effect and instinctive strike an enemy with a different lethal weapon?

[Vaz]

You have to fail the save. Stealing the spell effect just gives you the effect, doesn't it?

[Zombulian]

You have to fail the save. Stealing the spell effect just gives you the effect, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, yes. Though the spell is limited to a spell that could be cast on you by another caster, there's no save or casting involved, you just steal the active effect.
I was hoping the Spellthief Absorb Spell ability could be useful here because it adds another check against the spell, but you have to make the save in the first place, and the second check is based on class level and isn't technically a save :/

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm extending the deadline on this till Thursday: feel free to keep pushing ideas