Path of the Beserker fix?

[MasterMercury]

Ok, a lot of ideas float around for a beserker fix. My idea is to make exhaustion matter less to a beserker. This not only helps with combat, but also gives a beserker a potentially greater exploration role, by allowing them to survive in even worse conditions.

Fueled By Rage

Starting at 3rd level, whenever you take a short rest and spend at least 2 hit die, you also lose one level of exhaustion.


There's still a limit to it, in the form of hit die, and the beserker is still in a bad shape until a short rest, but this helps it along a lot I think.
Thoughts?

[Drackolus]

If going this route, I would make the dice expended purely to cure the exhausted status.
However, I sort of feel that it isn't nearly as weak as most people suggest. It's still inferior to totem in terms of general power, but it's a perfectly good path for a 2h barbarian (lousy on a dual-wielder).
My table has tried changing a "frenzy" to add an extra attack on the attack action, but remove the damage resistance and not give a level of exhaustion. Has worked out great so far. We also tried just changing the ba attack to be a seperate limited action, like haste, but only dash and 1 attack. Also seems to have been alright, but I like the first change better. Based loosely off of the frenzied berserker from 3.x.

[djreynolds]

The issue is, one level of exhaustion.... really isn't that bad. You can save your frenzy till end of the day.

Disadvantage on ability checks... not attack rolls or saving throws like 3 levels of exhaustion are.

Now tying its removal to a short rest IMO is great, if frenzy cost was worse.

So what if when you Frenzy, you gain 3 levels of exhaustion.... but it is removed for frenzied barbarians on a short rest.

That means on a normal adventuring day, with 2-3 short rests, you could use it... but you "have to" rest afterwards or until you short rest you have 3 levels of exhaustion.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I think a level of exhaustion is a big deal for some classes but a barbarian is not one of them. The party probably isn't relying on him or her to do any vital skill checks. Then only thing it really effects is initiative and possibly stealth. I think that's a decent cost for those extra attacks

[djreynolds]

I think a level of exhaustion is a big deal for some classes but a barbarian is not one of them. The party probably isn't relying on him or her to do any vital skill checks. Then only thing it really effects is initiative and possibly stealth. I think that's a decent cost for those extra attacks

And its level 6 ability... well its very good

[MasterMercury]

I think a level of exhaustion is a big deal for some classes but a barbarian is not one of them. The party probably isn't relying on him or her to do any vital skill checks. Then only thing it really effects is initiative and possibly stealth. I think that's a decent cost for those extra attacks


And its level 6 ability... well its very good

The thing is though, the only thing that a barbarian is good at out of combat is STR checks, which they now can't do because of exhaustion.

Personally, I like the frenzy, but anytime anyone plays it I like to fiddle with the subclass. And I've always thought that the path of the Beserker should be able to "go Beserk" more than once a day without being tired all of the next day.


Maybe if they all reset on a long rest. I would actually enjoy that, I think. See how close I get to death, sleep and eat, repeat.

[suplee215]

The thing is though, the only thing that a barbarian is good at out of combat is STR checks, which they now can't do because of exhaustion.


if you rage you lose the disadvantage on str checks and can rage without frenzy so not that big an issue.

[Spiritchaser]

Given that PAM can give you your bonus attack, albeit with a lower dice (but still the other bonuses) and more as well, with no penalty, frenzy as is seems like it needs to be better.

No-one at my table decided to play a barbarian, but I'd decided that if anyone does, a hit dice solution was the way to go

Pay up front to go into a frenzy, to start I'd planned to try 1 HD for the first, 2 HD for the second... I hadn't got so far as to figure out progression from there. Out of hit dice? take a level of exhaustion.

I think there are other variations out there as well that have been talked about before.

I don't know what HD cost will end up being right, but this does seem to be the reasonable way forward.

That said, the next campaign I start, I'm going to get rid of the bonk attack on PAM. I'm not sure what I'll replace it with, but an extra attack does not seem correct.

[Lombra]

Did you actually play it? Berserker is fine really. Frenzy has to be used in critical situations, not as if it's your bread and butter, and an extra attack is very valueable for a barbarian, more than for any other class.

[Spiritchaser]

Did you actually play it? Berserker is fine really. Frenzy has to be used in critical situations, not as if it's your bread and butter, and an extra attack is very valueable for a barbarian, more than for any other class.

I've played the dreaded NPC/DMPC barbarian, who, thankfully, the players ended up killing. (I think they still keep his maul on their ship).

I'd argue that a bonus attack is slightly less valuable on a barbarian than on a sorcadin (though obviously with quickened green flame blade, it's easy to get on that sorcadin). The sorcadin usually has lots more to do with their bonus action, but quickened GFB is often the best bang for the buck.

I'd argue that a bladelock running darkness/devils sight instead of hex also gets more out of a bonus action than a barb. If they happen to be a Hexblade then it becomes very clear why that blade is a sword, and must not be a polearm. If that's the cutoff line for no easy bonus attack, the barb isn't there.

I'd argue that some paladins would get more out of a bonus attack than a barb as well...

[Sir cryosin]

Thanking a long rest is not the only thing. That removes exhaustion levels. That third attack is powerful for a barbarian. So I find that it is all right for them to put a little bit of a cost on it. Paladin's don't get to smite for free, monks don't get to furry of blows for free. People are up in arms because it a negative effect and not a resource with out a draw back.

The Frenzy barbarian works himself up. Over exerting himself physically and mentally. Have you seen some do that? They are not themself for a bit. So I find the frenzy barbarian thematically in mechanically fine the way it is.

[Sir cryosin]

I've played the dreaded NPC/DMPC barbarian, who, thankfully, the players ended up killing. (I think they still keep his maul on their ship).

I'd argue that a bonus attack is slightly less valuable on a barbarian than on a sorcadin (though obviously with quickened green flame blade, it's easy to get on that sorcadin). The sorcadin usually has lots more to do with their bonus action, but quickened GFB is often the best bang for the buck.

I'd argue that a bladelock running darkness/devils sight instead of hex also gets more out of a bonus action than a barb. If they happen to be a Hexblade then it becomes very clear why that blade is a sword, and must not be a polearm. If that's the cutoff line for no easy bonus attack, the barb isn't there.

I'd argue that some paladins would get more out of a bonus attack than a barb as well...

Your talking multiclass. Muilticlass is going to be stronger then a standard class. What I would like to see may be two extra attacks instead of just one. But make second one a bit later.

[Lombra]

I've played the dreaded NPC/DMPC barbarian, who, thankfully, the players ended up killing. (I think they still keep his maul on their ship).

I'd argue that a bonus attack is slightly less valuable on a barbarian than on a sorcadin (though obviously with quickened green flame blade, it's easy to get on that sorcadin). The sorcadin usually has lots more to do with their bonus action, but quickened GFB is often the best bang for the buck.

I'd argue that a bladelock running darkness/devils sight instead of hex also gets more out of a bonus action than a barb. If they happen to be a Hexblade then it becomes very clear why that blade is a sword, and must not be a polearm. If that's the cutoff line for no easy bonus attack, the barb isn't there.

I'd argue that some paladins would get more out of a bonus attack than a barb as well...

Well you are looking only at damage. The player of the barbarian isn't a barbarian (in most cases). Frenzy allows you to keep raging if you are deprived of your action, maybe the enemy is too far away so you dash and hit it, maybe you made some skill check with your action (escape a grapple/ web/ manacles) and then you can hit something. Keeping the rage on is a very big part of the barbarian, and sometimes it's hard; not all encounters are made of creatures that recklessly attack the party.

PS: a berserker reliably gets 4 attacks per turn at 14th level, without feat investment. Only a fighter (because the monk does considerably less damage) gets that many at 20th level. How about that?

[Sir cryosin]

Well you are looking only at damage. The player of the barbarian isn't a barbarian (in most cases). Frenzy allows you to keep raging if you are deprived of your action, maybe the enemy is too far away so you dash and hit it, maybe you made some skill check with your action (escape a grapple/ web/ manacles) and then you can hit something. Keeping the rage on is a very big part of the barbarian, and sometimes it's hard; not all encounters are made of creatures that recklessly attack the party.

PS: a berserker reliably gets 4 attacks per turn at 14th level, without feat investment. Only a fighter (because the monk does considerably less damage) gets that many at 20th level. How about that?

Do they get a 4th attack?

[Lombra]

Do they get a 4th attack?

Retaliation is a reliable 4th attack.

[SharkForce]

Retaliation is a reliable 4th attack.

are you suggesting that a fighter can't reliably get a bonus action attack reliably at level 14? because I'm quite confident that they can.

path of the berserker is mostly a decent subclass. it has some quite nice abilities.

frenzy, however, is awful. it is only a tiny improvement over polearm master, which the frenzy barbarian should still have because otherwise they're drastically less powerful in the vast majority of fights they're ever going to be in, and it has a huge cost. small benefit + huge cost means there's a disconnect somewhere. a large benefit with a large cost is fine, a small benefit with a small cost is fine. but a small benefit with a large cost is stupid, it just creates an ability that you should avoid using.

the berserker subclass shouldn't be built around not using it's subclass features, that's just stupid.

now, that said, I can't agree with just removing the drawback of frenzy or making it completely disappear on a short rest either. that basically means you're removing the cost entirely, and changes the ability substantially because now you no longer need to take a feat to keep your damage good in regular fights, you can just frenzy all the time without meaningful cost, which adds a whole lot more to it than it should.

still, I do think that there should be *some* adjustment to the cost. ideally, that adjustment should be simple... I like making it cost an extra use of rage, personally, but I'm not convinced that's the only solution, it's just the one that works for me.

[Kane0]

Why not just cut the middle man? Expend a hit die or two to enter a frenzy instead of getting a level of exhaustion.
Is what my table does, works a charm. Makes the frenzy barbarian more the straight up offense type, as opposed to the Totem tanky/teamwork/mobile type.

[Lombra]

are you suggesting that a fighter can't reliably get a bonus action attack reliably at level 14? because I'm quite confident that they can.

path of the berserker is mostly a decent subclass. it has some quite nice abilities.

frenzy, however, is awful. it is only a tiny improvement over polearm master, which the frenzy barbarian should still have because otherwise they're drastically less powerful in the vast majority of fights they're ever going to be in, and it has a huge cost. small benefit + huge cost means there's a disconnect somewhere. a large benefit with a large cost is fine, a small benefit with a small cost is fine. but a small benefit with a large cost is stupid, it just creates an ability that you should avoid using.

the berserker subclass shouldn't be built around not using it's subclass features, that's just stupid.

now, that said, I can't agree with just removing the drawback of frenzy or making it completely disappear on a short rest either. that basically means you're removing the cost entirely, and changes the ability substantially because now you no longer need to take a feat to keep your damage good in regular fights, you can just frenzy all the time without meaningful cost, which adds a whole lot more to it than it should.

still, I do think that there should be *some* adjustment to the cost. ideally, that adjustment should be simple... I like making it cost an extra use of rage, personally, but I'm not convinced that's the only solution, it's just the one that works for me.

As a matter of fact, sourcebooks only, a featless fighter is gonna have a hard time getting a good BA attack two weapon fighting. The berserker's gonna get it when he needs it with his great-weapon.

The benefits of frenzy are huge as I said earlier, white rooms are poor tools to criticize class features.

PAM is by no means necessary to any martial class, and not having it absolutely doesn't make you less effective. Seriously everybody uses PAM to criticize frenzy, PAM distributes damage uniformly during the adventuring day while frenzy spikes when things get tight, and has much more versatility.

Exhaustion isn't even that big of a deal, you are still a war machine up to the 3rd level.

[SharkForce]

As a matter of fact, sourcebooks only, a featless fighter is gonna have a hard time getting a good BA attack two weapon fighting. The berserker's gonna get it when he needs it with his great-weapon.

The benefits of frenzy are huge as I said earlier, white rooms are poor tools to criticize class features.

PAM is by no means necessary to any martial class, and not having it absolutely doesn't make you less effective. Seriously everybody uses PAM to criticize frenzy, PAM distributes damage uniformly during the adventuring day while frenzy spikes when things get tight, and has much more versatility.

Exhaustion isn't even that big of a deal, you are still a war machine up to the 3rd level.

"it's good if you don't allow all of the things that are better" isn't a very compelling argument.

the benefits of frenzy are not huge compared to other sources of bonus action attacks (which is all frenzy gives you). PAM gives you about 6 less average damage per round, modified by your chance to hit (so usually more like 4 damage per round).

PAM isn't stricly necessary... but not having having it does make you less effective. a lot less effective. doing damage is pretty much your purpose as a fighter or barbarian. it's your raison d'etre. sure, you can use skills... as good as any other random schmuck, anyways. if you're not there to deal damage, you probably picked the wrong class, because that's the only area where your class makes you really stand out.

everybody uses PAM to criticize frenzy because it does 95% of what frenzy does for a much lower cost. or, in other words, everyone uses that comparison because it is a valid comparison. and as noted above, that "spike" you're talking about is pretty danged tiny. i mean, it's definitely higher damage, but it isn't nearly as big as you're making it out to be. it does give more versatility, if you're not attacking in the first place... but again, that's what you do as a barbarian. i don't care if it makes your damage better when you're not attacking. if you want to be better when not attacking, then barbarian is the wrong class for you.

exhaustion is always a big deal. the first level takes away the one thing other than hitting things with large and usually pointy objects that you might be noticeably good at (strength checks) and makes you worse at everything else (including going first) that you're capable of with the exception of hitting things with large and usually pointy objects. it wipes away instantly nearly every non-combat feature you have, some of the combat ones, and hits every single thing you might conceivably try to do outside of combat (unboosted by class features, but at least you can try) that has any chance of failure. the second level makes it harder for you to reach important targets, harder to run away if necessary (which can kill you just as surely as the 7th level of exhaustion), harder for you to even get into combat at all, take longer getting anywhere (unless you're constantly dashing, in which case, you'll probably build up *another* exhaustion level at some point)... mobility is always important. doubly so for a melee character, where it decides whether you get to participate meaningfully at all, and positioning is king.

heck, i don't even know how you can keep a straight face while arguing that disadvantage on all ability checks is trivial in the same breath that you're trying to tell me the versatility of frenzy allowing you to make an attack even when you don't declare an attack action is valuable. what exactly were you planning on doing that's so high value but doesn't call for an ability check, out of curiosity? because unless it's something i could have a hired unskilled labourer do, odds are good it involves an ability check.

[suplee215]

This also depends on how many feats you can get on your character without making it suffer. You are talking 2 feats with PAM and GWM which will take you to lvl 4 or 8 to get (at the cost of stats) whereas the berseker gets it's BA attack so much quicker. Personally, I think the perfect fix for the berseker class is to use the Battle Rager from Swordcoast (lifting the dwarf exclusiveness) but rule that spiked armor is a heavy weapon. GWM allows you to effective throw weightier weapons around and your body is probably the heaviest weapon on the the battle field.

[SharkForce]

This also depends on how many feats you can get on your character without making it suffer. You are talking 2 feats with PAM and GWM which will take you to lvl 4 or 8 to get (at the cost of stats) whereas the berseker gets it's BA attack so much quicker. Personally, I think the perfect fix for the berseker class is to use the Battle Rager from Swordcoast (lifting the dwarf exclusiveness) but rule that spiked armor is a heavy weapon. GWM allows you to effective throw weightier weapons around and your body is probably the heaviest weapon on the the battle field.

*shrug* as i said, you want both of those feats whether you're a berserker or not. if the berserker doesn't take them, the party will be down more resources in the fights where the berserker is doing substantially less damage.

[Kaelen]

I played a beserker barbarian all the way to lol 20. I didn't use a polearm I used a greatsword and In my opinion the biggest thing about the bonus action attack is that it doesn't mess well with the gwm bonus action attack and polearm master has the same drawback there. I would have liked if the frenzy attack worked like just a free attack (similar to like the one hunter ability). Keep the exhaustion and make the attack just happen and you'd still get a bonus action so if you crit or kill it's not wasted and polearm master is now not as good as a class feature.

[suplee215]

*shrug* as i said, you want both of those feats whether you're a berserker or not. if the berserker doesn't take them, the party will be down more resources in the fights where the berserker is doing substantially less damage.

Will it be a major difference? Unless you are fighting fights that require it in every battle I don't see why you would need it. Plus, in either case you will be taking 2 attacks in the first turn for rage. Most fights last what, 3-5 rounds? The Barbarian is designed with only 2 attacks and get plenty of things without. But then maybe I just like living in a world where not every melee str character uses a polearm as that will be truly optimized for the majority of classes. You can survive the game without a perfect character, especially when requiring a feat at lvl 4 and 8 can really show down other things. Also depends on how high you plan on the game going I guess.

[SharkForce]

Will it be a major difference? Unless you are fighting fights that require it in every battle I don't see why you would need it. Plus, in either case you will be taking 2 attacks in the first turn for rage. Most fights last what, 3-5 rounds? The Barbarian is designed with only 2 attacks and get plenty of things without. But then maybe I just like living in a world where not every melee str character uses a polearm as that will be truly optimized for the majority of classes. You can survive the game without a perfect character, especially when requiring a feat at lvl 4 and 8 can really show down other things. Also depends on how high you plan on the game going I guess.

yes, it will be a major difference. it's not a 50% damage boost, but you are probably looking at somewhere close to 30-40% damage increase.

now, 5e is balanced to have quite a bit of wiggle room... deadly fights are seldom all that deadly, and i've heard of plenty of quadruple-deadly fights (never been in one myself) if the group plays it well.

but it really is a very large increase in damage. if D&D were a competitive sport, those kinds of numbers would probably need massive nerfs, or else would pretty near instantly become the accepted meta.

(i can certainly agree that i'd like to see more variety in terms of optimized combat builds for weapon users than just sharpshooter/crossbow expert ranged and polearm master/great weapon master melee, but i'd rather see that done by interesting feats for other playstyles.

[TheBirba]

Path of the Berserker is fine.

The problem is with the Path of the Totem Warrior, that bear option at level 3 is just too good to pass on.

[SharkForce]

Path of the Berserker is fine.

The problem is with the Path of the Totem Warrior, that bear option at level 3 is just too good to pass on.

and yet, people manage to pass on it, and it is in fact quite dependant on what you want to do. people pick totem warrior because the alternative is berserker, and half of the abilities berserker gives are terrible while totem gives you enough options that you can almost always get something that is both useful and fits what you want. and yes, they do sometimes choose things other than bear. if bear totem was truly so ludicrously good that it can't be ignored, you'd see 3 level barbarian dips all over the place to pick it up, but you don't. i've seen far more people interested in 3 level *champion* dips than bear totem dips, and champion isn't exactly an awe-inspiring 3-level dip.

path of the berserker is not fine. it shouldn't be half good and half terrible, it should all be useful stuff. if frenzy didn't have a ridiculous drawback and the level 10 intimidate ability was actually in any way synergistic with being a barbarian, then it would be fine.

[Jerrykhor]

I have an easy fix: Allow all exhaustion stacks to be removed on a long rest.

[mephnick]

Path of the Berserker is fine.

The problem is with the Path of the Totem Warrior, that bear option at level 3 is just too good to pass on.

Nah, just extremely overhyped in theorycrafting. I'd argue wolf and eagle are almost always more useful for a barbarian for 80% of the game from what I've seen in play. Bear really starts to shine at high levels if your game is actually going to get there though.

[mephnick]

I waver on the exhaustion price. I think it's too high. I agree with Sharkforce that an extra use of rage is a simple answer. It follows the design of the more powerful wildshape cost for moon druids. I'm not really sure why they went out of left field it. The fear effect should have been a taunt effect instead, like a tribal version of compel duel.

[gameogre]

We just flat out removed Frenzy's exhaustion.

We figured getting to only take 50% damage from dang near everything was about on par with a single bonus action after the first round.

We played with it like that for four months now and don't plan on going back. Berserker barbarians are still not picked as much as totems but at least now if you want to go total offense you have a good option for barbarian.

We noticed btw that the higher the barbarian got the less that extra action was usefull. there were just too many other things that used that bonus action to award a extra attack.

[mephnick]

We just flat out removed Frenzy's exhaustion.

We figured getting to only take 50% damage from dang near everything was about on par with a single bonus action after the first round.

It's really just 50% on elemental damage since every Barb gets resistence to physical damage which everyone seems to forget when rating bear as ULTRA GOLD in guides. So it's not as lopsided as it seems, but totems are still better. Frenzy needs the cost lessened and Intimidating presence needs to be extremely buffed (bonus action, key off strength) or changed completely to put the classes on par.

[MadBear]

why not just move the frenzy back a step. The first frenzy in an adventuring day is free, then exhaustion kicks in after that.

That means you can do it twice in a typical dungeon and still remove all bad conditions at the end of the day with a long rest. Or do it 3 times in a day with the last one being during a Boss fight, and your still mostly good to go.

Or

You spend 1/2 your hit dice to remove all frenzy exhaustion's from your character on a short rest. Makes it so you're going to heal less then other members, but you can frenzy more often.

Or

Keep frenzy the same, but make it so it doesn't take up a bonus action, you just get a straight up 2nd attack. This would likely be a bit too powerful, but at least the downside is worth the cost.

[Laserlight]

There are two problems with RAW. One is that, as written, you're probably only going to use it once, maybe twice per day. I could go with "costs a HD" or "costs an extra Rage" or "when finished with Frenzy, make a CON save at DC15 to avoid a level of Exhaustion".

But the other is that the extra attack costs a bonus action. If you get extra attacks from bonus actions elsewhere--such as dual wielding--then your L3 "defining class feature" is worthless. Is "You get a free extra attack" took strong? I want a berserker to have the option of Sword & Axe.

[GlenSmash!]

Path of the Berserker is fine.

The problem is with the Path of the Totem Warrior, that bear option at level 3 is just too good to pass on.

Wolf is as good as Bear with only one other melee player in the party, with more it's even better. Giving advantage to a rogue or Paladin is just gravy. Bear does pick up more speed at higher levels, when Dragons and Spellcasting enemies are more common.

[GlenSmash!]

the problem with Berserker is not necessarily the mechanic itself as much as the design decision. No other subclass has such a steep drawback for using it's level 3 ability.

I flat out don't like that, even if the subclass may be fine as it is.

[SharkForce]

There are two problems with RAW. One is that, as written, you're probably only going to use it once, maybe twice per day. I could go with "costs a HD" or "costs an extra Rage" or "when finished with Frenzy, make a CON save at DC15 to avoid a level of Exhaustion".

But the other is that the extra attack costs a bonus action. If you get extra attacks from bonus actions elsewhere--such as dual wielding--then your L3 "defining class feature" is worthless. Is "You get a free extra attack" took strong? I want a berserker to have the option of Sword & Axe.

your second problem imo has more to do with TWF being badly designed than frenzy in particular.

my personal solution is to just treat a pair of 1d6 weapons as if they were a single 2d6 weapon (basically just add the weapon dice together), and pretend the bonus action attack doesn't exist... but I also know a lot of people didn't like that solution when I posted it before because they feel like TWF should be based around getting more attacks.

which is a shame, because it does a pretty good job of fixing many of the mechanical problems with TWF, imo.

[Laserlight]

your second problem imo has more to do with TWF being badly designed than frenzy in particular.

my personal solution is to just treat a pair of 1d6 weapons as if they were a single 2d6 weapon (basically just add the weapon dice together), and pretend the bonus action attack doesn't exist... but I also know a lot of people didn't like that solution when I posted it before because they feel like TWF should be based around getting more attacks.

which is a shame, because it does a pretty good job of fixing many of the mechanical problems with TWF, imo.

Except for the "not making two attacks" part, which is important if you're a swashbuckler, or using Mobile, etc. Not saying RAW TWF doesn't need fixing.

In any event, it's as if the idea of a TWF berserker never occurred to them.

[Tanarii]

why not just move the frenzy back a step. The first frenzy in an adventuring day is free, then exhaustion kicks in after that. Ive considered just making it 1/day, no exhaustion. Or giving players the choice. I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. Probably because before PAM was introduced in play test, it was considered overpowered. (Of course, IMO no sane non-AL DM will allow PAM to be selected.)

Of course, it's a non issue for me. In a no-feats single class campaign, very few players select Barbarians for their PC's class. Much more common for henchmen, mainly because I get to choose what's available (which is primarily Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues and Rangers).

[N810]

I have an easy fix: Allow all exhaustion stacks to be removed on a long rest.

This was my DM's solution, and I have to say it works pretty well.

Although the OP suggestion would work as too.


- lvl 17 Beserker

[Bloodcloud]

I like an increasing saving throw, like the Relentless rage save. Start at DC 10 to avoid exhaustion, DC raises by 5 each additionnal uses, reset on long rest. I'd add gain 1 level of exhaustion per 5 you fail the check. The first one is easy, eventually certain, but soon it's quite risky. I like how that preserves the risk of frenzy if pushed, but mitigates it in a well paced case.

Also, I think the intimidating presence DC should be an intimidation check, it should give expertise in intimidate, and also trigger on crt. You'd get out of combat utility and combat trigger (and the idea of your crit scaring the receiving enemy/a nearby enemy sounds just fun).

[Laurefindel]

I've seen the suggestion of frenzy having a cost in Hit Dice a few times around these boards.

I liked that because the barbarian has little to offer outside combat other than skills. Give it one exhaustion level and it can't even do that :(

Paying off frenzy in hit dice has the same 'battle fatigue' connotation, contributes to the attrition game but is not as immediately crippling as an exhaustion level. As a bonus, you don't have to be shy about enforcing CON save vs exhaustion because there is a Berserker in the group.

[SharkForce]

I've seen the suggestion of frenzy having a cost in Hit Dice a few times around these boards.

I liked that because the barbarian has little to offer outside combat other than skills. Give it one exhaustion level and it can't even do that :(

Paying off frenzy in hit dice has the same 'battle fatigue' connotation, contributes to the attrition game but is not as immediately crippling as an exhaustion level. As a bonus, you don't have to be shy about enforcing CON save vs exhaustion because there is a Berserker in the group.

yeah, that reminds me of the other stupid thing about berserker.

if you're playing a game where resources are scarce, or where for any reason exhaustion might start to build up (say, for example, forced marches), it basically makes berserker a suicide option. that really doesn't work for me. i mean, that isn't going to be the default for every game by any means, but there's a decent chance it'll come up (mostly at lower levels) for any game at least a few times.

[Bloodcloud]

I've seen the suggestion of frenzy having a cost in Hit Dice a few times around these boards.

I liked that because the barbarian has little to offer outside combat other than skills. Give it one exhaustion level and it can't even do that :(

Paying off frenzy in hit dice has the same 'battle fatigue' connotation, contributes to the attrition game but is not as immediately crippling as an exhaustion level. As a bonus, you don't have to be shy about enforcing CON save vs exhaustion because there is a Berserker in the group.

Only problem with that is that HD build up fast. Soon the cost is negligible and the barb is frenzying all the time. And you lose the risk reward aspect of it. Which might be your intent, but the math would need to be checked then.

[SharkForce]

Only problem with that is that HD build up fast. Soon the cost is negligible and the barb is frenzying all the time. And you lose the risk reward aspect of it. Which might be your intent, but the math would need to be checked then.

just scale the HD cost. 1 for the first time per day, 2 for the second, etc.

[MadBear]

Only problem with that is that HD build up fast. Soon the cost is negligible and the barb is frenzying all the time. And you lose the risk reward aspect of it. Which might be your intent, but the math would need to be checked then.

in that case, what if the number of HD was tied to level. Something like 1/3 level rounded up. That way it stays consistent regardless of level.

[N810]

... YEA, that way he never gets good... at doing the thing that he does. :smallconfused:

[MadBear]

... YEA, that way he never gets good... at doing the thing that he does. :smallconfused:

It's not that they'd never get good, they'd just always pay a cost that's less bad then exhaustion to frenzy.

[N810]

So you don't think he will need to expend more frenzies as the reaches higher levels ?

[Laurefindel]

Only problem with that is that HD build up fast. Soon the cost is negligible and the barb is frenzying all the time. And you lose the risk reward aspect of it. Which might be your intent, but the math would need to be checked then.

Yes, it does mean the berserker is frenzy-ing all the time. Or close to.

Let's say a frenzy rage costs 2HD. That the berserker 'repays' its daily frenzy in one long rest at 4th level. At 8th level he repays two frenzies with a long rest, etc.

I don't know how DPR weights in compared to the amount of hps regained in a short rest however. Is there such an established correlation?

[Bloodcloud]

So you don't think he will need to expend more frenzies as the reaches higher levels ?

I think WOTC has done a decent enough job at balancing damage output this edition and i'm wary of "fixing it" without making some claculations. Plenty of class ability are 1/long rest, which is more or less what frenzy is right now. Implementing a 1hd per frenzy fix upset that balance in ways I have not calculated. I doubt it would be very bad, but I'm wary, is all.

I like reusing the con save that goes up by 5 per use personnaly, as the threat of a level of exhaustion exists, it allows the barb to push his luck, keeps his HP intact, and scale fairly well per level (Con save 10 is evetually a sure thing, 15 is eventually damn easy, but con 20 is never assured, and con 25 is downright hazardous even at level 20.) It repurposes an existing mechanic rather than create a new one, which is my preferred route for fixes.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think frenzy's fine. Berserkers might not be as universally good as Totemarians due to the exhaustion limitation, but they're better than Battleragers and I'd argue superior to even most UA subclasses. 'Good enough' is acceptable, they don't need to be the best to be fun. When you decide you're fine being tired for the rest of the day, everything else is going to end up hilariously dead.

That said, I'd prefer to play one in a party with a bard/cleric/druid that I can convince to cast Greater Restoration once in a while, or in a campaign where I can feasibly buy potions of vitality. In the case of the latter I feel a Berserker might even be superior to a Totemarian. Frenzy and chug coffee all day.

[MadBear]

So you don't think he will need to expend more frenzies as the reaches higher levels ?

There area few important points here.

If you're following the recommended fight schedule, no you won't need to fight more then at any other level.

The current barbarian doesn't get to ignore exhaustion, so this keeps that aspect of it being something you always must take into account.

Unlike exhaustion, healing HP damage is far easier to the point of absurdatity at higher levels. (just buy a ton of health potions to carry with you).

[N810]

... unless you DM has banned health potions like mine has ...

[MadBear]

... unless you DM has banned health potions like mine has ...

sure.... but it's hardly fair to criticize a theoretical homebrew rule "fix" because of a different personal homebrew rule. That'd be like saying frenzy is bad because your DM doubles the exhaustion track in your games.

[N810]

Likewise it's also unlikely that every DM will make potions plentiful.
or that every town will have a potion shop.

[Tanarii]

Likewise it's also unlikely that every DM will make potions plentiful.More advanced healing potions are fairly common on the magic item tables, but yeah, nothing says a DM will use that or scatter treasure like candy.

That said ...

or that every town will have a potion shop.
Potion of Healing is in the PHB for 50 GP. It's certainly reasonable to assume that's available in many locations, barring special circumstances in-game or a custom DM world, since it's normal PHB gear. And (if they have downtime) players with Herbalism Kit proficiency can craft one every 5 days of downtime and 25gp.

Which means a Tier 2 adventurer can easily afford 10 Potions of Healing per adventuring day if they want to spend huge chunks of cash on healing, in a standard sized treasure hoard campaign. An extra 70 Hit Points (average) per adventuring day is nothing to sneeze at.

[Cybren]

"it's good if you don't allow all of the things that are better" isn't a very compelling argument

Not every option is meant for every table or even every player. Frenzy is an exceedingly powerful option in a fearless game, and even with feats, frenzy gives a bonus action attack with no other requirements... At all. Something so many frenzy "fixes" seem to forget, which actually gives the berserker a lot of flexibility in how they use their action.

[Tanarii]

Not every option is meant for every table or even every player. Frenzy is an exceedingly powerful option in a fearless game,I still find the majority of players prefer Totem PCs. Otoh I'm also a single class campaign. The majority of players prefer not to play Barbarians at all, they're significantly underrepresented as a PC class. I'm cool with that, because I make them rather over-represented as an available henchman class. So Frenzy still sees table time.

Even so, I've vaguely thought I should switch it to 1/day, as I said up thread. But I try to keep house rules for regularly used basic rules (combat & class features) to a minimum, as I have far to many players to start messing around with fiddly stuff.


Something so many frenzy "fixes" seem to forget, which actually gives the berserker a lot of flexibility in how they use their action.
I agree this is regularly underrated. For example, PAM requires the Attack Action. A frenzy Barbarian can do anything, including Dash or Dodge, and get their attack in. Which incidentally means they can maintain the Rage / Frenzy.

Which isn't to say I think that makes it comparable to PAM. Pole arm mastery is a massively overpowered Feat, which no sane DM should allow even in a game with feats.

[SharkForce]

Not every option is meant for every table or even every player. Frenzy is an exceedingly powerful option in a fearless game, and even with feats, frenzy gives a bonus action attack with no other requirements... At all. Something so many frenzy "fixes" seem to forget, which actually gives the berserker a lot of flexibility in how they use their action.

i'm aware of that benefit of frenzy. it's nice. it sure as hell isn't so valuable that it's worth paying so much more than every other source of bonus action attacks. and it still isn't a powerful option in a featless game, because a featless game is basically a code-word for "we're nerfing non-casters". the fact that a berserker in a game with no feats gets to reach the levels of a bog-standard melee character (and even slightly above) in a game with feats on occasion certainly makes frenzy better, but if you have to nerf every other similar character concept in the game for berserker to even be competitive, and even then only arguably so (again, exhaustion, even the first level, ranges from a hefty cost all the way up to being basically suicidal depending on the situation).


I agree this is regularly underrated. For example, PAM requires the Attack Action. A frenzy Barbarian can do anything, including Dash or Dodge, and get their attack in. Which incidentally means they can maintain the Rage / Frenzy.

Which isn't to say I think that makes it comparable to PAM. Pole arm mastery is a massively overpowered Feat, which no sane DM should allow even in a game with feats.

you can also maintain rage by taking damage. which shouldn't be *that* hard.

and again, you're a barbarian... if you're not taking the attack action consistently, you probably should have picked a different class.

[Laurefindel]

and again, you're a barbarian... if you're not taking the attack action consistently, you probably should have picked a different class.

It does allow the move + dash + attack as a bonus action, which is nice once in a while, allowing to cherry-pick your opponent a bit better. Unfortunately, you can't do that on your first round to close-in with the enemy since you used your BA enter rage in the first place, so it's still situational. Nice for getting the enemy casters though.

[Cybren]

i'm aware of that benefit of frenzy. it's nice. it sure as hell isn't so valuable that it's worth paying so much more than every other source of bonus action attacks. and it still isn't a powerful option in a featless game, because a featless game is basically a code-word for "we're nerfing non-casters".


The lack of an eyeroll emoticon makes my response harder but I'll try: this is a dumb point that is both objectively wrong and untestable, which I guess is an achievement.




and again, you're a barbarian... if you're not taking the attack action consistently, you probably should have picked a different class.


maybe the problem isn't with the frenzy mechanic but with your opinion of barbarians

[SharkForce]

It does allow the move + dash + attack as a bonus action, which is nice once in a while, allowing to cherry-pick your opponent a bit better. Unfortunately, you can't do that on your first round to close-in with the enemy since you used your BA enter rage in the first place, so it's still situational. Nice for getting the enemy casters though.

if dash + attack was all that valuable, there are certain feats that wouldn't be complete and utter garbage, but are.


The lack of an eyeroll emoticon makes my response harder but I'll try: this is a dumb point that is both objectively wrong and untestable, which I guess is an achievement.



maybe the problem isn't with the frenzy mechanic but with your opinion of barbarians

are you suggesting that including feats isn't a massive boost for weapon users in a way that simply isn't remotely true for casters? there is no feat or combination of feats that just takes what you do as a spellcaster and makes you substantially better at it. i can certainly agree to dislike how the existence of feats for only a handful of options leads to a heavy emphasis on those options to the exclusion of others, but simply put, if there are no feats in the game then warriors are considerably worse at attacking things, and attacking things is really what warriors are good at. i mean, they're no worse at skills than anyone else... but also no better. if you want someone who is good with skills, you don't bring a fighter, you bring a rogue or a bard. if you want someone who provides tremendous out of combat utility and strong battlefield control, you bring a wizard or a druid, not a barbarian.

and not only do feats provide power, they also provide much of the versatility and utility available to weapon users.

if you would like to make the case for barbarians being particularly good at things *other* than being melee attackers, feel free to present your argument. and again, i don't mean "they're not worse than anyone else", i mean good, as in their class features provide increased ability to do something that is not available to any other character type.

[Tanarii]

I need an eyeroll emoticon too. :smallamused:


are you suggesting that including feats isn't a massive boost for weapon users in a way that simply isn't remotely true for casters?It is. Which demonstrates you've got it back to front. Taking away feats doesn't nerf 'martials'. Adding 3 specifically broken feats boost 'martials' that use them until they are broken: Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master.

[Cybren]

I need an eyeroll emoticon too. :smallamused:

It is. Which demonstrates you've got it back to front. Taking away feats doesn't nerf 'martials'. Adding 3 specifically broken feats boost 'martials' that use them until they are broken: Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master.

It's not as if you can't play a "martial" with actual 0 of those feats and still contribute to the game alongside people that have them. Honestly, what people call 'broken' in this edition baffles me.

[SharkForce]

I need an eyeroll emoticon too. :smallamused:

It is. Which demonstrates you've got it back to front. Taking away feats doesn't nerf 'martials'. Adding 3 specifically broken feats boost 'martials' that use them until they are broken: Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, and Polearm Master.

martials are not overpowered with those feats. at higher levels, those feats are helping keep up with magic users. they should probably have been more broadly applicable class features rather than feats, but since that's what we're stuck with, well, that's what we're stuck with.


It's not as if you can't play a "martial" with actual 0 of those feats and still contribute to the game alongside people that have them. Honestly, what people call 'broken' in this edition baffles me.

you can play a badly optimized character, sure. 5e has wiggle room for effectiveness, especially if you're following encounter balancing guides (minus the few creatures that have completely borked CR). and at higher levels, if it weren't for the fact that this is a game, i'd be pretty annoyed if the person i was depending on to help keep me alive in tough situations was making those kinds of horrible decisions. i mean, i'll put up with it, because ultimately, this is a game and we're here to have fun. but i'm not crazy enough to think that means you're contributing equally to everyone else, or that your character wouldn't be far more effective if you had optimized it better.

i would like to see more feats make it into the game so that there was a bigger variety of effective builds. but if you're trying to tell me that your TWF fighter is just as useful as a sharpshooter or GWM/PM fighter, and that your contribution is just as significant, then either the guy with the glaive is derping it up something fierce in the actual battles, or you're full of carp but since it's a game i'll put up with it anyways.

[Theodoxus]

Would it be overpowering to change Frenzy to read as:

Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. IF you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain the Action Surge feature each round, as the second level Fighter ability. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion, and can not Frenzy again until the exhaustion is removed through magic or rest.

Getting up to 10 Action Surges a day (more, with Greater Restoration/Potions of Vitality) seems an adequate trade off for exhaustion.

Definitely open to critique, but it keeps the same basic flavor of using a bonus action that's not tied to anything, while making it natively stronger than horde breaker (the similar ability that makes exhaustion looks so harsh) while limiting it to effectively 1/day until 9th level, and even then, requiring a team effort to remove the exhaustion... though a Barbarian 10/druid 10 build would be pretty fun :smallwink:

Anyway, thoughts?

[SharkForce]

making the ability broken when it's used does not fix the problem that the ability is broken after it is used.

i would support frenzy giving a different benefit (bonus action attacks can be gained too many other ways), but not powering it up to completely ridiculous levels. and it would still be a problem afterwards because it would still give you a level of exhaustion. a broken ability with a broken cost is just double broken. that isn't an improvement.

[Mongobear]

My groups' fix to Frenzy had nothing to do with Barbarian at all.

Lesser Restoration - You may remove 1 level of Exhaustion as one of the conditions healed with this spell.

Greater Restoration Heal and Mass Heal - Also removes levels of Exhaustion(on each target effected) equal to your spellcasting stat modifier.

EDIT - iirc, we also allowed Lay on Hands and any other abilities that function similarly to the Restoration spells removes Exhaustion as well. Lay on Hands specifically had exhaustion added as a healable condition for 10 points of the pool.

[Daphne]

I would just make frenzy an once/long rest feature and make it an extra attack that doesn't cost a bonus action.