3.5 Monster Advancement Questions

[Tyrant]

I have a few questions about advancing monsters. Specifically (as this one fits my questions), the Ulitharid. The psionic variant in Lords of Madness mentions that is has powers as if it were a 13th level Psion (Telepathy). If I were to give it levels in psion would it start at 14 and go on up or would it start at one and have two pools of points/powers? If it were the former option, would that mean that for the purposes of Prestige Classes that it is in effect a 13th level Psion?

Likewise, the non-psion has abilities as a 12th level Sorcerer. If I were to give it Sorcerer levels would it start at start at 13 or start at 1?

Any idea if either the Power or Spell Resistance is meant to scale with Hit Dice like the normal Illithid?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edit to add: I don't have my book right in front of me so my mention of specific levels might be off a little. That shouldn't matter for the answer I am seeking.

[Doctor Awkward]

I have a few questions about advancing monsters. Specifically (as this one fits my questions), the Ulitharid. The psionic variant in Lords of Madness mentions that is has powers as if it were a 13th level Psion (Telepathy). If I were to give it levels in psion would it start at 14 and go on up or would it start at one and have two pools of points/powers? If it were the former option, would that mean that for the purposes of Prestige Classes that it is in effect a 13th level Psion?

1. Yes. It advances by character class, and with the psychic option it has the innate manifesting as a 13th level psion. Giving it a level in Psion would make it 14.

2. Yes. It has the manifesting ability as a psion of 13th level. It qualifies for any feats or prestige classes that would apply.


Likewise, the non-psion has abilities as a 12th level Sorcerer. If I were to give it Sorcerer levels would it start at start at 13 or start at 1?

No, the normal non-psion Ulitharid has a list of specific spell-like abilities that can be used a number of times per day indicated, not innate casting as a sorcerer. The caster level, for purposes that require it (like dispelling them) is 12, the same as its hit dice, which is pretty standard for SLA's.

Though for a similar example, see a nymph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm), which has innate spellcasting equal to a 7th level druid.


Any idea if either the Power or Spell Resistance is meant to scale with Hit Dice like the normal Illithid?



Eh, there's probably no reason why it shouldn't.

[Thurbane]

Caveat on the PrC: if it's a PrC that increases powers by "+1 level of existing manifesting class" or similar, you must have at least one level of an actual class to advance. You can't advance innate manifesting with a PrC. So if you want to take advantage of this type of PrC, take 1 level of Psion first, then into the PrC.

[AlanBruce]

Caveat on the PrC: if it's a PrC that increases powers by "+1 level of existing manifesting class" or similar, you must have at least one level of an actual class to advance. You can't advance innate manifesting with a PrC. So if you want to take advantage of this type of PrC, take 1 level of Psion first, then into the PrC.

Not too familiar on Manifesting races and how they interact with PrC or classes that advance powers, but if look at the Rakshasa, we get this:


Spells: A rakshasa character casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If the character takes additional levels of sorcerer, these levels stack with the rakshasa’s base spellcasting ability for spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level. A rakshasa character likewise uses the sum of its racial spellcasting levels and class levels to determine the abilities of its familiar.


Actually, rereading this entry, yes. The Rakshasa would need one level of sorcerer specifically to enter a PrC. Had overseen that little clause. It most likely applies to other races with spellcasting like nymphs or manifester powers like an Ulitharid.

[Thurbane]

Actually, rereading this entry, yes. The Rakshasa would need one level of sorcerer specifically to enter a PrC. Had overseen that little clause. It most likely applies to other races with spellcasting like nymphs or manifester powers like an Ulitharid.

I know: I was kind of peeved when I read that clause; I had to re-design a couple of NPCs. I could DM fiat it through, but I like to keep my NPCs RAW where possible.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't get it. It says that taking actual Sorcerer levels stacks with its innate Sorcerer spellcasting, but where does it say that you can't advance its innate spellcasting with a prestige class?

Is it because of how the various prestige class spellcasting advancement class features are worded? I'm 99.999% certain that those paragraphs weren't written with spellcasting monsters in mind and are just assuming that all spellcasting naturally comes from taking levels in the appropriate classes. If you think of a monster's racial Hit Dice as it's "monster class" (as the rules sometimes refer to them), then you should be able to count "Rakshasa" as a spellcasting class all on its own.

[Thurbane]

I don't get it. It says that taking actual Sorcerer levels stacks with its innate Sorcerer spellcasting, but where does it say that you can't advance its innate spellcasting with a prestige class?

Is it because of how the various prestige class spellcasting advancement class features are worded? I'm 99.999% certain that those paragraphs weren't written with spellcasting monsters in mind and are just assuming that all spellcasting naturally comes from taking levels in the appropriate classes. If you think of a monster's racial Hit Dice as it's "monster class" (as the rules sometimes refer to them), then you should be able to count "Rakshasa" as a spellcasting class all on its own.

...and there we have a RAW vs. RAI debate, right there.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well alrighty, then.....

[Tyrant]

I was going to mention the Rakshasa as it's entry spells out how it works as opposed to the Sorcerer-like ability of the Ulitharid.

Thanks for the help with my questions.

I have a follow up question though. Using the Ulitharid as an example, does it just give up the other benefits of the 13 levels of innate manifesting ability (bonus feats, etc) since it would in essence start advancing as a level 14 Psion?

[Zancloufer]

...and there we have a RAW vs. RAI debate, right there.

Even so it is really shaky RAW. Most racial spell casting says it counts as X class and any advances to said spell casting from other classes explicitly stack. Rakasha says it casts as if it is a level 7 Sorcerer and advances in Sorcerer spell casting stack with it's own innate abilities. It is also worth noting that it calls racial HD "Monster Class". So we have a "Class" (Outsider) which because of our racial trait provide sorcerer spell casting (level 7, same as HD).

I'm pretty sure you could argue by RAW that some Arcane PrCs don't increase caster level or grant spells know (IIRC Elderitch Knight doesn't explicitly mention granting spells known and Archmage doesn't mention increasing caster level). By stupid RAW those classes wouldn't properly advance spellcasting.

EDIT:


I have a follow up question though. Using the Ulitharid as an example, does it just give up the other benefits of the 13 levels of innate manifesting ability (bonus feats, etc) since it would in essence start advancing as a level 14 Psion?

It would have the manifesting of a 14th level Psion, but if you only took 1 level of Psion you would be effectively 1st level for class features other than manifesting.

[Thurbane]

I don't think the RAW is all that shaky myself.


A rakshasa casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer.

Doing something "as a" character class of a certain level is not the same as having the class. The language in most caster-advancing PrCs is fairly specific that it advances a class.

As for RAI, yes, I personally think those kind of PrCs should advance innate casting. I'm definitely not arguing against that.

A DM is free to apply his own reading of RAW and RAI as they see fit, really.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Thurbane is correct.

It's about as silly as the steps when taking 1st level preventing certain certain feats.

[Tyrant]

Thanks again to everyone for the help.