Question: whip

[Desteplo]

Aside from dex battlemaster. Is it any good? Even then it's a stretch. Ranged weapons work with maneuvers

-what are some unique options that the whip provides? I came from 3.5 which gave it tons of utility. Finesse reach are it's only qualities now

Ranged melee sneak attack?

-pack tactics doesn't work either

[Falcon X]

I could see it being used optimally by a bladesinger or other magical swordsman.
Take the Spell Sniper feat to be able to use the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide cantrips with it. You will also get eldritch blast that ignores cover and has extra long range.

[Tanarii]

The primary purpose of the whip in 5e seems to be to include stats for the whip. Because players will want to use it even if it's not a superior weapon choice. Kinda like the Trident, or throwing hammer, or morning star / war pick.

I don't find it a little weird that Rogues can't use the whip out of the box, but that's only because like every player worth her salt, I've tried to make an 'Indy' character - Dwarf Sage (Archeology Professor) Rogue. :smallamused:

[ThurlRavenscrof]

The primary purpose of the whip in 5e seems to be to include stats for the whip. Because players will want to use it even if it's not a superior weapon choice. Kinda like the Trident, or throwing hammer, or morning star / war pick.
:

Agree. I like that you're trying but in my opinion, the whip is meant to be a fun weapon not an optimal one

[Desteplo]

Agree. I like that you're trying but in my opinion, the whip is meant to be a fun weapon not an optimal one

You can optimize fun! there's limits and I'm trying to find some

Like thrown weapon specialist uses spears. Taking the UA feat so it's a d8. The feat is more for melee. But it significantly boosts strength based thrown weapon build effectiveness

[JellyPooga]

Rogue might not get it 'out of the box', but with a little multiclassing, that d4 damage dice means very little compared to their Sneak Attack damage. Barbarian (my favourite Rogue MC), adding Rage damage to it, mitigates it even further.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

You can optimize fun! there's limits and I'm trying to find some

Like thrown weapon specialist uses spears. Taking the UA feat so it's a d8. The feat is more for melee. But it significantly boosts strength based thrown weapon build effectiveness

Yeah I definitely feel like there's a way to optimize the whip. But I don't feel like there's a way to optimize a character by using the whip.

When I personally use it, I make it my third weapon when Im a dex based martial character the dueling fighting style. But most of it's useful time is spent grabbing and moving objects in puzzle situations or wrapping around a bar so I can swing around - very little combat time.

[ad_hoc]

Spell Sniper + Booming Blade on a Bladesinger is the main one.

It's not great but it's not terrible either. It is very thematic as the crack of the whip can justify the 'boom' of Booming Blade.

[lunaticfringe]

Skirmisher Kensai Monk? Gotta go reread the updated version.

[Foxhound438]

-it's a one handed reach weapon (the only one) so you can have it and a shield, or otherwise maybe a casting focus, and attack things without being within 5'. This is only better than darts when you have extra attack, so it's a niche use but it's there none the less. Other ranged weapons don't work with shield or focus because of the ammunition property.

-smite at 10' with a shield. the difference of going from d8 to d4 is only like 2 damage, so when you have attacks that get a free d8 anyways and also potentially 2-4 more for cheap, that 2 damage drop becomes irrelevant. The extra 5' won't always be relevant, but it's there for when you need it.

-cleric divine strike at 10'. same argument as with smite.

-stunning strike at 10' (even though it's not a monk weapon).

that's all I can think of.

[TripleD]

I use it as the primary weapon for my DEX based vengeance paladin.

It combos very nice with sentinel. A high AC is nice, but no enemy attack roll at all is even better.

It also works great as a support weapon if you take expertise with athletics. Run around tripping foes, then let your allies hit them with advantage. Having Reach means you don't usually have to worry about disengaging when you do this.

Lastly, it can be very nice if you take Dualist and pair it with a rapier or dagger:
1) Main Action: trip with whip
2) Bonus action: stab for Sneak Attack damage

[Torzen]

The primary purpose of the whip in 5e seems to be to include stats for the whip. Because players will want to use it even if it's not a superior weapon choice. Kinda like the Trident, or throwing hammer, or morning star / war pick.

I don't find it a little weird that Rogues can't use the whip out of the box, but that's only because like every player worth her salt, I've tried to make an 'Indy' character - Dwarf Sage (Archeology Professor) Rogue. :smallamused:

I had a Rogue that found a whip in a dungeon and he picked it up. And it worked for him on two parts 1) It helped with sneak attack, grab an enemy's hand, neck,(etc.) giving the tank in the party a attack of opportunity 2) had a free running experience in Baldurs Gate and made for a fun chase where my Rogue was the one chasing.

It did good for a distraction with fighting monsters (at times because some monsters have a higher intelligence and just posses them off)

[Potato_Priest]

If your rogue is somehow proficient (perhaps through a fighter level in which you also picked up duelist) it can be quite good and it actually synergizes well with one of the game's other most unused feats: charger.

Everyone knows that rogues only get 1 attack per round, so they don't actually have to sacrifice much to get the charger's +5 damage.

The whip has a 10 foot reach, meaning that you can attack and retreat with it, no opportunity attacks involved.

A rogue with charger can take the dash action, run 10 feet towards an enemy, whip them for sneak attack + whip +dex + charger 5, and then run off again and wait until the next turn.

[Naanomi]

As a primary weapon: dex paladin, rogue that got Proficiency somehow, maybe a valor Bard

As a backup melee option for a primary ranged character or caster: death Cleric, beast-master ranger

There are some UA options that might make use of it as well (Kensai most obviously)

[Saeviomage]

If you have a regular reach weapon, you can only take an OA when someone moves from 10 feet to 15 feet from you.

If you have a whip and another weapon, you can take an OA when someone moves from 5 to 10 feet OR when someone moves from 10 to 15 feet from you.

[Tanarii]

If you have a regular reach weapon, you can only take an OA when someone moves from 10 feet to 15 feet from you.

If you have a whip and another weapon, you can take an OA when someone moves from 5 to 10 feet OR when someone moves from 10 to 15 feet from you.
You'd have to take Dual Wielder though, since Whips aren't light.

OTOH Rapier / Whip dual wielder feat Ranger sounds like a good justification for actually taking Dual Wielder with a Dex character to me. (I can't stand the idea of dual rapiers, personal pet peeve.)

[JackPhoenix]

If you have a regular reach weapon, you can only take an OA when someone moves from 10 feet to 15 feet from you.

If you have a whip and another weapon, you can take an OA when someone moves from 5 to 10 feet OR when someone moves from 10 to 15 feet from you.

That's not how it works. You don't have two different "reaches". If you use reach weapon, you get OA when someone moves away from 10' of you. Movement inside your reach doesn't provoke OA, no matter what you hold in the other hand.

[Foxhound438]

That's not how it works. You don't have two different "reaches". If you use reach weapon, you get OA when someone moves away from 10' of you. Movement inside your reach doesn't provoke OA, no matter what you hold in the other hand.

^this. Not saying I wouldn't allow it anyways since dual wielders already get the shortest end of the stick you can have, but for more strict followers of the rules it's kind of expected that they would rule against.

[Me1000]

Spell Sniper + Booming Blade on a Bladesinger is the main one.

It's not great but it's not terrible either. It is very thematic as the crack of the whip can justify the 'boom' of Booming Blade.

Interesting perception but reasonable

[Tanarii]

That's not how it works. You don't have two different "reaches". If you use reach weapon, you get OA when someone moves away from 10' of you. Movement inside your reach doesn't provoke OA, no matter what you hold in the other hand.

So you'd allow someone using a normal whip and some powerful magic longsword, who has the dual Wielder feat, to make an attack with their long sword when the enemy moved out of their 10ft reach?

[Maxilian]

So you'd allow someone using a normal whip and some powerful magic longsword, who has the dual Wielder feat, to make an attack with their long sword when the enemy moved out of their 10ft reach?

No, cause its out of the reach of that weapon, but not out of your reach, so would have to use the Whip, unless you throw it.... (can you make a range attack with a melee weapon as part of your OA?)

[JackPhoenix]

So you'd allow someone using a normal whip and some powerful magic longsword, who has the dual Wielder feat, to make an attack with their long sword when the enemy moved out of their 10ft reach?

RAW? No. If you want to make OA with the sword instead of the whip, put the whip away.

I would allow the character to have 2 different "reaches", but I understand it's an houserule, not part of RAW.

[Tanarii]

RAW? No. If you want to make OA with the sword instead of the whip, put the whip away.
Wait, your argument is that if a character wields whip and a non-reach weapon, they can only make an Oa with the whip? Gonna have to ask for citations on that one.

[Jacquerel]

Wait, your argument is that if a character wields whip and a non-reach weapon, they can only make an Oa with the whip? Gonna have to ask for citations on that one.

Your reach is your maximum attack range.
If you are wielding a whip, your maximum attack range is 10 feet.
An Opportunity Attack is provoked when someone leaves your reach.
If someone leaves your reach and is 10 feet away, you can't hit them with your sword, because it only has 5 feet of reach.

There are a few monsters in the manual who have melee attacks with different ranges and they don't get to do opportunity attacks on players who move from 5 to 10 feet.

[Maxilian]

Wait, your argument is that if a character wields whip and a non-reach weapon, they can only make an Oa with the whip? Gonna have to ask for citations on that one.

They, in theory, could attack with the weapon per se, but by RAW, you only make an OA when they leave your reach (and that reach is 10) and that's out of your sword reach (so not an elegible weapon for the OA). -If you increase your weapon attack somehow (Some Mystic lvl? or UA Ranger that make you a giant plant?)

[mrumsey]

Your reach is your maximum attack range.
If you are wielding a whip, your maximum attack range is 10 feet.
An Opportunity Attack is provoked when someone leaves your reach.
If someone leaves your reach and is 10 feet away, you can't hit them with your sword, because it only has 5 feet of reach.

There are a few monsters in the manual who have melee attacks with different ranges and they don't get to do opportunity attacks on players who move from 5 to 10 feet.

Can you attack with a whip at 5 feet? If you can/could not, would that change things? <-- Honest Questions

[Maxilian]

Can you attack with a whip at 5 feet? If you can/could not, would that change things? <-- Honest Questions

Yes you can attack with a Whip at 5 feet, but that wouldn't change anything, unless 5 becomes your maximun reach (somehow -Like leaving your whip-).

The detail comes on how OA works (it only activates when the enemy leave your maximun melee range (in thanks to your Whip, is 10 feet)

[mrumsey]

Yes you can attack with a Whip at 5 feet, but that wouldn't change anything, unless 5 becomes your maximun reach (somehow -Like leaving your whip-).

The detail comes on how OA works (it only activates when the enemy leave your maximun melee range (in thanks to your Whip, is 10 feet)

Does this mean that with a strict reading of reach and various combat rules, that shenanigans can occur? Grappling folk at 10 feet while holding a whip, or pushing them with your massive floppy strip of leather?

I am away from book and try not to hold writers to the restrictions of being as crazy as all of their end users at the same time, but this could be a fun little break from normal.

[Findulidas]

Grappling folk at 10 feet while holding a whip, or pushing them with your massive floppy strip of leather?

Im pretty sure that such a strict reading of the rules would face objections.

I also think that OA werent written considering someone dualwielding 10 reach and also a 5 reach weapon at the same time. Much like the game can turn a bit bananas once your NPC becomes large due to oversized weapons and other rules. At these points you probably have to make stuff up as a DM.

[Jacquerel]

You know I'm going over the PHB again and I think actually a lot of us have this wrong.


Reach. This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it.

Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have melee attacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.
To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature.
The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.

Reading this again, I think I've been doing reach all wrong.
The way that this actually reads it sounds like your weapon does not actually matter at all when determining opportunity attacks, and you always have a five foot reach.
Therefore you can opportunity attack a target moving out of your 5 foot reach when you are wielding a whip, but not one that moves out of a 10 foot range (because your reach is only 10 feet when you are attacking, and you are not currently attacking).

This is more important for people who use the Polearm Master feat, which grants you an opportunity attack when creatures enter your reach.
I had ruled this as "when they come within 10 feet" but it sounds like actually it should be "when they come within 5 feet". You can attack a creature that is 10 feet away, but not opportunity attack a creature that is 10 feet away.

You also can't grapple people 10 feet away because it says that Grappling is an "Special Melee Attack", but not a "Weapon Attack", so you are not attacking with your whip and hence do not use its reach property.


TL;DR: Unless it is contradicted in errata, the RAW is that you only get reach from weapons when you are attacking with them.
This means that your reach for the purposes of Opportunity Attacks, on someone else's turn, is always 5 feet, unless some other effect increases it.

This also makes some sense because of the feat "War Caster" which allows you to use a Cantrip as an OA but obviously does not extend your reach to sixty+ feet.

[mrumsey]

Im pretty sure that such a strict reading of the rules would face objections.

I also think that OA werent written considering someone dualwielding 10 reach and also a 5 reach weapon at the same time. Much like the game can turn a bit bananas once your NPC becomes large due to oversized weapons and other rules. At these points you probably have to make stuff up as a DM.

Oh, I agree. I would object to it myself. I just like the white-room shenanigans that could/may happen when weird things happen (like dualwielding 10ft/5ft reach weapons).

[Tanarii]

You know I'm going over the PHB again and I think actually a lot of us have this wrong.That's why I wanted citations. Because people make all sorts of assumptions. That said, I don't necessarily think your quotes mean your position was wrong. Because I feel like there was an SA dealing with the 'when attacking' thing with Reach. I'll go dig through some old SA stuff on it and see if I can find it.

[Jacquerel]

That's why I wanted citations. Because people make all sorts of assumptions. That said, I don't necessarily think your quotes mean your position was wrong. Because I feel like there was an SA dealing with the 'when attacking' thing with Reach. I'll go dig through some old SA stuff on it and see if I can find it.

RAW that is how it seems to me.
I would definitely not be surprised to see an SA on the subject though, seems like the kind of thing there would be errata for.

[ProsecutorGodot]

RAW that is how it seems to me.
I would definitely not be surprised to see an SA on the subject though, seems like the kind of thing there would be errata for.
I quick google search reveals that there not only is an SA on it, but it states that you have your choice of which weapon you get AoO for.

[Tanarii]

Sa compendium v1.14 page 10
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf

How does a reach weapon work with opportunity at- tacks? An opportunity attack is normally triggered when a creature you can see moves beyond your reach (PH, 195).
If you want to make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon, such as a glaive or a halberd, you can do so when
a creature leaves the reach you have with that weapon. For example, if you’re wielding a halberd, a creature that is right next to you could move 5 feet away without triggering an opportunity attack. If that creature tries to move an addi- tional 5 feet—beyond your 10-foot reach—the creature then triggers an opportunity attack.

Edit: I'll just note that this SA (which means it's reasonable called RAI) wording would definitely allow you to make OAs with both of a dual wielded rapier (at 5ft) and whip (at 10 ft)

[RickAllison]

See, Jaquerel, your quoted passages make me think specifically of the Sage Advice on Warcaster and OAs with the Polearm and thus couldn't use Warcaster until the SCAG cantrips came along. You only had a 10 ft reach when you attacked with the reach weapon, so you couldn't cast the spell when they went to 15 ft unless you attacked with the weapon. Same with Polearm Master, "While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon." You couldn't use Warcaster with it because then you wouldn't be using the reach of that weapon.

[Saeviomage]

That's not how it works. You don't have two different "reaches". If you use reach weapon, you get OA when someone moves away from 10' of you. Movement inside your reach doesn't provoke OA, no matter what you hold in the other hand.
As others and SA have said, you get reach when you attack with a reach weapon. So either polearms don't increase the area that you cover with OAs (and also don't create an interesting deadzone), OR the whip/other weapon combo lets you pick the reach OR you invent a rule that says your personal reach is the greatest reach of any weapon you are wielding.

Personally I'd rather there be this interesting niche available for a whip wielder (and any other creature that has multiple reaches, like a dragon)


You'd have to take Dual Wielder though, since Whips aren't light.

You don't, because you only need dual wielder to 'use two-weapon fighting', which lets you take a bonus action attack. You can stand around wielding two weapons all you like, and even switch up your attacks with them, you just can't take that bonus action.

[Christian]

Here's a totally explicit sage advice answer, although the context is monster attacks:

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/679069372946739200: "the dragon chooses - it can use the claw if you move beyond 5, or the bite if beyond 10"

Presuming the monsters don't operate under different rules than player characters, this same ruling would apply to a character dual-wielding a whip and a 5' reach weapon.

[Finback]

Aside from dex battlemaster. Is it any good? Even then it's a stretch. Ranged weapons work with maneuvers

-what are some unique options that the whip provides? I came from 3.5 which gave it tons of utility. Finesse reach are it's only qualities now

Ranged melee sneak attack?

-pack tactics doesn't work either

There is only one major downside to using a whip, and that is that when a problem comes along, you *must* whip it.

[Tanarii]

You don't, because you only need dual wielder to 'use two-weapon fighting', which lets you take a bonus action attack. You can stand around wielding two weapons all you like, and even switch up your attacks with them, you just can't take that bonus action.
Good call. I fell into a classic twf thinking trap there.

[Jacquerel]

Here's a totally explicit sage advice answer, although the context is monster attacks:

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/679069372946739200: "the dragon chooses - it can use the claw if you move beyond 5, or the bite if beyond 10"

Presuming the monsters don't operate under different rules than player characters, this same ruling would apply to a character dual-wielding a whip and a 5' reach weapon.

That works for me.
I don't think the situation has come up in my games but I am now content that it is RAI that creatures can have multiple "threatened" ranges for AoO's.
They still only get one per turn and I don't think this combo is particularly useful in any other way, so I suppose being able to trigger it slightly more reliably isn't so overpowered anyway.