[3.5] My Warmages always die

[Mr Adventurer]

I like playing Warmages now and then, under-optimised as they are. They're like archers, but more explodey. But one particular element of their under-optimisation keeps causing me difficulties, and that's how squishy they are. Partly it's because their spellcasting ability scores are Charisma and Intelligence, which don't aid your saves or AC. Partly it's that the chassis is pretty terrible, and they don't have any built-in way to compensate (like an open spell list that can buff them). They need to use their feats to shore up their schtick (Spell Focus, SR-boosting feats, etc.) and sometimes to help them out with dealing with somatic components, if they want to use a shield. A lot of their spells are Close range (or less), which isn't enough to reliably keep them out of range like a good arched should be.

I usually try to go for Battle Caster and then mithril full plate, which helps with AC at first, but is expensive even at middle levels.

It's vital not to drop any spellcasting levels or else your low optimisation becomes even more apparent.

With Eclectic Learning, you can get into Abjurant Champion and that would help a huge amount, but it doesn't pay off until Character Level 12 to 15, normally.

Are there strategies I should consider to improve Warmage resilience - that is, AC, HP, and saves - at low to medium levels?

[flappeercraft]

Well you could dip in Paladin for Cha to saves and if you can't due to alignment restrictions maybe The Freedom, Tyranny or other variants that have different alignment restrictions. Also the D10 and BAB don't hurt. If you want more versatility though I would reccomend becoming a Rainbow Servant to have all Cleric Spells spontaneously and known meaning you could also buff yourself as you wanted.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It might be worth ignoring Intelligence-- it provides a small boost to damage, but not a tremendous one; it's maybe +1 or +2 CL worth on most spells. That should give you more room to work with vis-a-vis Dex and Con. List-expanding things like Arcane Disciple and Runestaves can get more and better protective spells onto your list as well; Mage of the Arcane Order and its ilk can do similar things. And for something a bit more ambitious... taking Arcane Preparation arguably means that you meet the "class that prepares spells" clause and can cast Sanctified Spells, which include a few more lovely options.

So... overall, I'd suggest leaving a low score in Int and grabbing Arcane Disciple (Retribution) at 1st level, for Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance. That, combined with your d6 HD, light armor, and a light shield (don't bother with a weapon) should do you okay for a few levels. At 3rd level, take Ancestral Relic and start building a custom runestaff. Alter Self should probably be the first spell that goes in there, at the low low market price of 1600 gold-- or 800 gold if crafted. A 1st level defensive spell like Benign Transposition or Obscuring Mist wouldn't go amiss either. As you level-up, continue to power up your Runestaff with new defensive spells.

[Deeds]

A single level dip in Cleric would be beneficial. Cloistered cleric can get you nifty skills + knowledge domain for free. Oh yeah, spells like Bless, Lesser Vigor, and Resurgence become available. But best of all, thanks to the best book ever written, Complete Champion, you can trade the cleric's 2 domains for devotion feats (feats also courtesy of Complete Champion.)

-Grab law devotion and you'll gain +3 sacred/profane AC or attack for a minute. Spend 3 turn attempts to use it again.

-Grab travel devotion and you can move as a swift action for 1 minute a day. Spend 2 turn attempts to do it again.

-Grab knowledge devotion and uhh... gain a bonus to attack and damage! Just look it up it's pretty good. Roll a relevant knowledge check and you're good to go.

[Eladrinblade]

Take better advantage of concealment, cover, soft cover, fighting defensively, readied actions, & dropping prone. Carry smokesticks for portable concealment. Buy potions of prot vs evil, shield of faith, etc, for when you know you're going into a notable fight. They're cheap. Prioritize enhancing your armor/shield and getting defensive magical items.

[stanprollyright]

The nice thing about defensive buffs is that there are no DCs, and CL often just improves duration. So you should be able to get away with using mostly wands, scrolls, and potions for defense. Low level defense spells like Protection From X, Swift Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur, can get a lot of mileage regardless of CL.

[noob]

And you can get a rune staff for the low level spells that benefits most from the duration.

[Godskook]

Warmages have access to casting in Full Plate with Light Shields at level 8. Their AC is 3 short of Tower Shields past level 8, so....what's the problem, AC-wise?

[ATHATH]

Warmage is a class with low-base power, not low-optimization. Optimization is what you do with something, not how inherently powerful it is, and thus varies based on build rather than class.

[lord_khaine]

And you can get a rune staff for the low level spells that benefits most from the duration.

No, because there isnt Rune staffs with those lowlevel buffs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, because there isnt Rune staffs with those lowlevel buffs.
Yes, because there's an entire section of well-defined rules on creating custom runestaves. They're explicitly part of what you can do with Craft Staff; it's not like the general table of guidelines.

[Dagroth]

I second the "Go Rainbow Servant" route.

Yeah, you're losing caster levels, but once you hit level 16 the pay-off is incredible.

[lord_khaine]

Yes, because there's an entire section of well-defined rules on creating custom runestaves. They're explicitly part of what you can do with Craft Staff; it's not like the general table of guidelines.

Yes, the same sort of guidelines there is i the dmg on creating custom magic items. Along with guidelines on pricing and a lot more.

[ATHATH]

I second the "Go Rainbow Servant" route.

Yeah, you're losing caster levels, but once you hit level 16 the pay-off is incredible.
Actually, you don't lose caster levels, because Text Trumps Table.

YMMV, though, since your DM might decide to go with the table's progression instead anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes, the same sort of guidelines there is i the dmg on creating custom magic items. Along with guidelines on pricing and a lot more.
No, the same sort of guidelines there is in the PHB for creating wands. The "estimating prices" thing is for wondrous items, as per the DMG 288: "Wondrous item costs are difficult to
formularize. Refer to Table 7–33 on page 285 and use the item prices in this chapter as a guideline." The Runestaff rules have no such text.

[Grim Reader]

You'd have to keep UMD'ing a Runestaff anyway. Not a big problem at high levels but possibly challenging early on.

Maybe play a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and refluff it as a Warmage? Sorcerers are better blasters anyway.

[Corlindale]

I've played an almost pure Warmage from level 1 to 20 (just 4 levels of Archmage at the end).

I did die a few times, but I picked Mirror Image with Eclectic Learning as soon as possible and that saved my life countless times.

My higher level EL choices were Dimension Door (utility and survival) and Limited Wish (all the versatility I was missing - at a price).

At high levels, when saves started to become a real problem, I bought various items that helped me circumvent the need for making a save, like a Diamond Mind ring for the Concentration in place of Fort save maneuver, and a Mindvault as insurance against being Dominated.

[Fouredged Sword]

You could play and elf with Fairy Mystery Initiate and get Int to HP in place of Con, boost int through the roof and dump con hard. I suggest Grey Elf for the int/dex bonus.

[Dagroth]

Special note!

Get Versatile Spellcaster ASAP so that you qualify for "Able to cast 3rd level Arcane Spells" at 4th level and can jump into Rainbow Servant at 5th.

After all, the text of the class says that you know all the spells on your class list... you're just not able to cast them until you gain enough experience (levels).

[Endarire]

Rainbow Warsnake (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5213.0)

[Mr Adventurer]

It might be worth ignoring Intelligence-- it provides a small boost to damage, but not a tremendous one; it's maybe +1 or +2 CL worth on most spells. That should give you more room to work with vis-a-vis Dex and Con. List-expanding things like Arcane Disciple and Runestaves can get more and better protective spells onto your list as well; Mage of the Arcane Order and its ilk can do similar things. And for something a bit more ambitious... taking Arcane Preparation arguably means that you meet the "class that prepares spells" clause and can cast Sanctified Spells, which include a few more lovely options.

So... overall, I'd suggest leaving a low score in Int and grabbing Arcane Disciple (Retribution) at 1st level, for Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance. That, combined with your d6 HD, light armor, and a light shield (don't bother with a weapon) should do you okay for a few levels. At 3rd level, take Ancestral Relic and start building a custom runestaff. Alter Self should probably be the first spell that goes in there, at the low low market price of 1600 gold-- or 800 gold if crafted. A 1st level defensive spell like Benign Transposition or Obscuring Mist wouldn't go amiss either. As you level-up, continue to power up your Runestaff with new defensive spells.

Arcane Disciple allows you to cast each spell once per day, doesn't it?

Does it add the spells to your spell list for the purposes of staves etc?

Because I was under the impression that domain spells for clerics aren't considered to be on their spell list for such purposes.

Also, Use Magic Device is not a class skill for Warmages, who also have precious few skill points. It'll be a struggle to hit those UMD DCs until mid levels, at least.


Take better advantage of concealment, cover, soft cover, fighting defensively, readied actions, & dropping prone. Carry smokesticks for portable concealment. Buy potions of prot vs evil, shield of faith, etc, for when you know you're going into a notable fight. They're cheap. Prioritize enhancing your armor/shield and getting defensive magical items.

This is always good tactical advice for combats :smallsmile:.

At low to mid levels, the drain of the cost of expendables on WBL (which, do I remember is strictly supposed to be on top of the random selection of one-use potions and scrolls you accumulate?) is significant and also risks your action economy.


The nice thing about defensive buffs is that there are no DCs, and CL often just improves duration. So you should be able to get away with using mostly wands, scrolls, and potions for defense. Low level defense spells like Protection From X, Swift Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur, can get a lot of mileage regardless of CL.

True - as mentioned above, this only really comes into its own at higher levels when these things are easily affordable...


And you can get a rune staff for the low level spells that benefits most from the duration.

UMD is an issue.


Warmages have access to casting in Full Plate with Light Shields at level 8. Their AC is 3 short of Tower Shields past level 8, so....what's the problem, AC-wise?

If by "have access to" you mean "can spend most of their WBL on mithril full plate, leaving less cash for other essential defensive items", then the only problem is that non-AC defences, including HP, are also very poor.


I've played an almost pure Warmage from level 1 to 20 (just 4 levels of Archmage at the end).

I did die a few times, but I picked Mirror Image with Eclectic Learning as soon as possible and that saved my life countless times.

My higher level EL choices were Dimension Door (utility and survival) and Limited Wish (all the versatility I was missing - at a price).

At high levels, when saves started to become a real problem, I bought various items that helped me circumvent the need for making a save, like a Diamond Mind ring for the Concentration in place of Fort save maneuver, and a Mindvault as insurance against being Dominated.

Good picks for Eclectic Learning. But I'd want to snag Shield to get into Abjurant Champion, too.

Diamond Mind is a good idea to get hold of through items or feats, but you can only use it once per encounter so it's not a complete fix.

Apart from that, buying your way out of the problem can work, but with the opportunity cost of those other items you might otherwise be able to have equipped that covered your other weaknesses (the same as the Fighter, unable to overcome most obstacles of most kinds) or to improve your main schtick.


You could play and elf with Fairy Mystery Initiate and get Int to HP in place of Con, boost int through the roof and dump con hard. I suggest Grey Elf for the int/dex bonus.

Interesting approach. Where is that feat from? Does it apply to all levels, or just Level 1?

This also exacerbates the poor saving throw issue.

[Fouredged Sword]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate is from dragon 319, so ask your DM. It grants a weird bonus you can switch around if you have four other people with the feat. The last one allows you to retroactively replace your con bonus with your int bonus for all bonus hp. Your fort save does suffer, but if you are rocking a 20+int after boosting items it can be VERY nice even if you don't dump con under 10. A grey elf basically has a -1 fort save rather than a 80 point hp swing at level 20.

It meshes well with a Warmage 8 / paladin 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 build. Your saves all get your charisma applied to them and you become very int/cha focused with really high AC due to abjurant champion. Pick up the exalted spell that acts like better mage armor but is actually an abjuration. I can't remember the name, but abjurant champion turns it into super armor.

[Mr Adventurer]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate is from dragon 319, so ask your DM. It grants a weird bonus you can switch around if you have four other people with the feat. The last one allows you to retroactively replace your con bonus with your int bonus for all bonus hp. Your fort save does suffer, but if you are rocking a 20+int after boosting items it can be VERY nice even if you don't dump con under 10. A grey elf basically has a -1 fort save rather than a 80 point hp swing at level 20.

It meshes well with a Warmage 8 / paladin 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 build. Your saves all get your charisma applied to them and you become very int/cha focused with really high AC due to abjurant champion. Pick up the exalted spell that acts like better mage armor but is actually an abjuration. I can't remember the name, but abjurant champion turns it into super armor.

Aha, OK, thanks. We don't usually use Dragon material but I'll see next time.

Do you have to be Exalted (alignment/behaviour) to use Sanctified spells?

The spell you're thinking of is Luminous Armour (Greater).

[Fouredged Sword]

Aha, OK, thanks. We don't usually use Dragon material but I'll see next time.

Do you have to be Exalted (alignment/behaviour) to use Sanctified spells?

The spell you're thinking of is Luminous Armour (Greater).

Oddly enough I am pretty sure you just have to be good, and yes I am referring to Luminous armor, just remember to get an item to heal your str damage at the end of each day. You may have to jump though some hoops to add it to your spells known as a fixed list spontaneous caster.

[daremetoidareyo]

You have to be exalted and you have to take a crappy 5 level class to get the sanctified spells added to your list. Exalted arcanist is the name. If you go this route, be sure to look up my channeling celestials guide, lots of versatility there

[Grod_The_Giant]

You have to be exalted and you have to take a crappy 5 level class to get the sanctified spells added to your list. Exalted arcanist is the name. If you go this route, be sure to look up my channeling celestials guide, lots of versatility there
That, or be Good and prepare spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you can also do it by using the extra spell feat used to add it to your list. Yes, it hurts to burn a feat on something a wizard gets for free, but is Luminious Armor worth a feat for an abjurant champion? Yes, yes it is.

[Dread_Head]

Get some eternal wands of good low level protection spells? You can cast them from any list as you are an arcane caster so you don't need to worry about UMD plus they never run out. Shield, Protection from X, Expeditous Retreat (for kiting purposes, not being near to get hit is wonderful) and Reduce Person are all cheap to buy and will boost your AC.

[Mr Adventurer]

I think you can also do it by using the extra spell feat used to add it to your list. Yes, it hurts to burn a feat on something a wizard gets for free, but is Luminious Armor worth a feat for an abjurant champion? Yes, yes it is.

It does hurt - especially if you're also going into Abjurant Champion (Combat Casting) and Archmage (Spell Focuses, etc.)...


Get some eternal wands of good low level protection spells? You can cast them from any list as you are an arcane caster so you don't need to worry about UMD plus they never run out. Shield, Protection from X, Expeditous Retreat (for kiting purposes, not being near to get hit is wonderful) and Reduce Person are all cheap to buy and will boost your AC.

That does actually sound like pretty good advice. The only thing about it is that you're still operating from a lower 'baseline' than most other characters, and it's harder to hit a resilient high note as a result.

What spells in particular would be good for this?

[ATHATH]

Oddly enough I am pretty sure you just have to be good, and yes I am referring to Luminous armor, just remember to get an item to heal your str damage at the end of each day. You may have to jump though some hoops to add it to your spells known as a fixed list spontaneous caster.

You have to be exalted and you have to take a crappy 5 level class to get the sanctified spells added to your list. Exalted arcanist is the name. If you go this route, be sure to look up my channeling celestials guide, lots of versatility there
What?

You just have to be non-Evil (even Neutral will do) and be able to prepare spells (hello, Arcane Preparation feat!) to cast Sanctified spells (or take 5 levels in Exalted Arcanist, but who'd want to do that instead of just taking a feat?). It's Exalted feats that require you to be Exalted Good, not Exalted spells.