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View Full Version : Magic Items, WBL, and CR.



Miles Invictus
2007-08-02, 02:13 AM
Let's say we have a low-magic campaign setting. In this hypothetical setting, magical equipment is almost nonexistent. There are, however, materials that bypass DR/magic, DR/fire, etc, so penetrating damage reduction is not a problem. These materials are as easy to acquire in this world as they are in a standard world.

So, here's my question: Given the above tweak to the standard low-magic setting, is CR a useful metric?

Basically, I'm looking for ways to create a low-magic setting without being forced to scrap the entire CR system.

Kel_Arath
2007-08-02, 03:41 AM
The CR system will still work entirely well, just think of the characters as a level down for every 3 or 4 levels for CR's, that way it compensates for bonuses due to magic.

lord_khaine
2007-08-02, 04:19 AM
nahh, it wont work, for a start some classes are a lot more reliant on magic items than other, especaly melee classes will get screwed over by this.

to start with challenge rating is only a rough guideline, but when you dont follow Wealth by level you run a greater risk of overestimating anilities of your player.
just for a start, try and considder how much Ac usualy rely on magic items, and how much a magic sword helps the fighters damage output.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-08-02, 04:55 AM
The CR system will still work entirely well, just think of the characters as a level down for every 3 or 4 levels for CR's, that way it compensates for bonuses due to magic.

A common misconception. CR takes into account magic items more than most people realise because magic items have a much larger impact on a character's strength than most ppl realise.

CR takes into account saving throws versus DCs, AC versus AB and damage versus HP. Now, let's look into them at various levels, shall we?


ECL 5:
The PCs here have little magical gear. 9.000 GP is not much-but the effect it can have is substantial. A +2 to one ability score, a +1 weapon, a cloak of resistance +1.
AB: A dedicated meeler would have an AB of +9 at this point. +2 strength and +1 weapon give him an AB of +11, more than 20% increase.
Saves/DCs: Most characters have saves of +5/+4/+2 by this point-counting ability bonuses. A +1 resistance item gives +6/+5/+3, an increase of about 30%. The impact on DCs for characters is considerably lower at this point though.
Damage A meeler does 1d8+4 by this point with a sword. With magic, this becomes 1d8+7. In addition to better chances to hit and better AB you can divert into PA the damage is increased by about 50% with magic.

ECL 10:
The PCs here should have substantial magical gear-49.000 gp. A +4 to one or more abilities, a +3 weapon, a +3 resistance item, a +2 armor, a +1 amulet and a +1 shield.
AB: A dedicated meeler has an AB of +15 at this point. +4 ability score and +2 weapon give him an AB of +19. 4 points higher AB means roughly doubled chance to land a blow against a set AC-e.g. chance to miss AC 26 was 50%. Now it is only 25%. Chance to hit AC 30 was only 25%-now it is 50%. So against a set AC for their level, meelers hit TWICE as often with magic gear by ECL 10.
AC: A dedicated meeler is going to focus on AC as well as AB. With AC being 4 points higher with magic, the same holds true as for AB-enemies will hit HALF as often as without magic items. If you are a rogue and use dexterity for both AB and AC, then the increase is 6 points in AC-and you're going to be hit 3 TIMES less often.
Saves: Saves by this point are +10/+5/+3 for most PPL. A +3 item takes that to +13/+8/+6. That increases chances to save against a set DC by about 30%.
Damage: Damage for meelers is the most affected stat by this level. Obviously, with twice the chance to hit, damage per round is already DOUBLED for meelers. Using a single weapon, meelers do 1d8+6 by this level. With magic, they do 1d8+1d6+10 (extra damage being energy) which means damage is increased by a further 75%. Against swarms or opponents you can only hit at a 20, the extra 4 AB goes into PA, giving another +4 to damage. So, all in all, meele damage is doubled again with items.


ECL 15: A respectable amount of gear by this point-200.000 gp-means the effect is much higher than in previous levels. A +4 to 2 or more abilities, a +4 to saves item, a +5 weapon, a +4 armor, a +4 shield, a +4 amulet, a +4 ring.
AB: A difference of 6 points to AB from items here means more than doubling of the chance to hit an AC for your ECL. ACs you'd only hit on a 20 now you could hit on a 15, meaning 1 out of 4 times. ACs you had a small chance to miss now you could hit every time. Your chances to hit are more than doubled in most occasions.
AC: The greatest impact of increased wealth is in AC. Now you can afford those nifty rings of protection, amulets of natural armor and enchanted armor/shields. The difference between non-magic AC and magic AC here is 18 points for meelers and 14 points for casters. That is a HUGE difference. Most enemies that hit you every single time in nonmagic gear now hit you once every 3 times or less. Many enemies will only hit you on a 20 now.
Saves: The difference here may seem smaller than in previous levels-only a +4 instead of a +3 while base saves have increased more-but DCs have also increased. It is the difference that counts-and 4-5 points lower save means you fail saving throws TWICE as easily for an average DC for your ECL.
Damage: DR aside (assuming you can penetrate it here), damage has been increased considerably as well. 1d8+8 is the base damage-with magic that becomes 1d8+1d6+16, doubling it. In addition, there is even more AB to fuel PA.


So, the +1 CR every 4 levels works only for ECL 5. Without magic gear at higher levels, it becomes more and more difficult to fight enemies-especially for meelers (caster offence is not greatly affected). Also, in high levels defence really suffers. In DnD, defence only really comes from items for most characters in higher levels. Without items, most characters are left at below 20 AC, being hit very often by CR 10 and beyond. They also fail their saves twice as often.

Without magic, players should be facing monsters several CR points lower than themselves, especially if the monsters have magic of their own.

Think of the lowly Succubus, a mere CR 7. What is the DC for her charms? That's right, it is DC 22. That is an impossible save for fighters at that ECl without magic gear. Even an ECL 20 spellcaster will fail against a succubus 50% of the time without magic gear (if it weren't for that Mind Blank, that is)

Miles Invictus
2007-08-02, 05:32 PM
Thanks, Belial -- that's the sort of data I was hoping for.

Do official baselines exist for attack bonus, AC, saves, etc?

I mean a listing that says something like "A CR 1 opponent that focuses on melee should have about +4 to melee attack, +3 to melee damage, +3 to ranged attack, 18 AC (12 touch AC), 16 hit points, +4 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will, etc..."

I'm thinking about making a system for converting CRs to low-magic settings. It'd be nice, though, if one already existed.

Jasdoif
2007-08-02, 05:37 PM
Do official baselines exist for attack bonus, AC, saves, etc?

I mean a listing that says something like "A CR 1 opponent that focuses on melee should have about +4 to melee attack, +3 to melee damage, +3 to ranged attack, 18 AC (12 touch AC), 16 hit points, +4 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will, etc..."There's general guidelines in the MM, in the section for creating your own monsters.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-02, 05:46 PM
There's a clearer guideline in the DMG-II, with the randomly generated NPC tables.

Ramos
2007-08-02, 06:56 PM
Just remember that NPCs are supposed to be weaker than PCs and have much fewer gold to spend.

The only way to get accurate guidelines for AC, attack and saves is to compare with monster stats of that CR.

For example, a Pit Fiend is a well-balanced CR 20 enemy.
The Pit Fiend has an AC of 40-so the attack of a fighter in order for half the attacks in a full attack to hit should be in the +35 to +40 region. (first attack hits, second hits 60% of the time, third hits 30% of the time, last attack misses)
The Pit fiend has an attack of +30. The required AC for a PC to be hit only half the time is AC 40.
The Pit fiend has combat-relaited DCs in the 23-27 region thus a character must have saves of +15 to resist its special attacks 50% of the time.

Golthur
2007-08-02, 07:08 PM
As Belial pointed out with his stats, I certainly wouldn't do low magic without some sort of class defense variant. D&D relies inherently on magical equipment for AC. Even in PvP, attack bonus for full attack characters goes up +1 per level, but without better equipment, AC stays static.

Monsters don't have that problem, since the MM can always say "+10 natural armour" (e.g. flesh golem), and the problem's solved.

Mike_G
2007-08-02, 10:17 PM
As Belial pointed out with his stats, I certainly wouldn't do low magic without some sort of class defense variant. D&D relies inherently on magical equipment for AC. Even in PvP, attack bonus for full attack characters goes up +1 per level, but without better equipment, AC stays static.

Monsters don't have that problem, since the MM can always say "+10 natural armour" (e.g. flesh golem), and the problem's solved.

But the defense varient is easy. D20 modern has one, as do D20 Conan and Iron Heroes.

If you don't have access to any of those, just use Defense Bonus as 1/2 BAB. It increases nicely with level, and the classes that spend the most time in combat get the most bonus.

If you keep the classes as is, then you do hurt the more gear dependent classes more, obviously. Druids will hardly notice, while Fighters will really feel it. The lack of attribute raising items will hurt casters, but not too terribly.

Matthew
2007-08-02, 10:20 PM
Yeah, here's what I would do to 'power up' my lowly Player Characters without Magical Bonuses.

Base Attack Bonus = +X AB (as usual), but also +X DB and +X AC

Attack Bonuses are also something of a problem, as your average Player Character is going to be benefitting from magically enhanced Attribute Scores and Weaponry as he jumps up the levels. My guess would be that over the course of twenty levels this will be equivalent to around +10 AB. Compensating for that I don't have much of an idea about. One possibility is to allow them to trade AC for AB up to their BAB or 1/2 BAB.