To Disintegrate a Druid

[Lawful Good]

Okay

Say you have druid who turns into a beetle (through wild shape).

A nearby wizard zaps him with disintegrate. Does the druid

A. Revert to humanoid form, as he dropped to zero hp, or

B. Get turned to ash

I might be missing something here, but isn't it B?

[Sigreid]

B, druid is dead. This was even reinforced by Crawford in response to a question. Power Word Kill works too. Key is in the wording. Does it damage hp, or kill anything with less than x hp.

[DivisibleByZero]

B. Get turned to ash

I might be missing something here, but isn't it B?

You aren't missing anything. The druid is a beetle with xhp.
If disintegrate reduces him to 0, he is turned to ash, just like the spell states.
This overrides the general rules for what happens when he is wildshaped and gets reduced to 0hp.
Rules for Wildshape = general.
Rules for a particular spell = specific.

The extra HP pool from Wildshape are in some ways a boon, and in other ways a hindrance.

[Lawful Good]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

*Time to go disintegrate some druids*

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I think B. but why would a druid turn into a beetle in a fight? It doesn't seem like he is very good at his job.:)

[SharkForce]

I think B. but why would a druid turn into a beetle in a fight? It doesn't seem like he is very good at his job.:)

he never specified the size of the beetle :P ;)

[jaappleton]

he never specified the size of the beetle :P ;)

Dire Beetle

Beetleborg

[lperkins2]

I think B. but why would a druid turn into a beetle in a fight? It doesn't seem like he is very good at his job.:)

To get away when he knows he's outmatched.

[Sigreid]

I think B. but why would a druid turn into a beetle in a fight? It doesn't seem like he is very good at his job.:)

Poor sod was going spying and didn't realize the Archmage has a pathological hatred of bugs and disintegrates them all. Too bad too as that would have been information the party could exploit.

[Joe the Rat]

Poor sod was going spying and didn't realize the Archmage has a pathological hatred of bugs and disintegrates them all. Too bad too as that would have been information the party could exploit.

That's why your barbarian did the beast sense ritual with him before he took off to scout.
"Well, we know he's at least an 11th level caster... and we need a new Druid."

[Sigreid]

That's why your barbarian did the beast sense ritual with him before he took off to scout.
"Well, we know he's at least an 11th level caster... and we need a new Druid."

Anyone ever watch Dinosaurs? "We're going to need another Timmy!!"

[Unoriginal]

Poor sod was going spying and didn't realize the Archmage has a pathological hatred of bugs and disintegrates them all. Too bad too as that would have been information the party could exploit.

...honestly, at this point I'd just throw a bunch of insects at the Archmage and watch him waste all of his spell slots

[Sigreid]

...honestly, at this point I'd just throw a bunch of insects at the Archmage and watch him waste all of his spell slots

Yes, that was the exploit they could have used if the druid survived to report his findings.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Okay

Say you have druid who turns into a beetle (through wild shape).

A nearby wizard zaps him with disintegrate. Does the druid

A. Revert to humanoid form, as he dropped to zero hp, or

B. Get turned to ash

I might be missing something here, but isn't it B?

c) Both!

He's turned to dust because that's what the spell does - but it's human dust. not beetle dust. Just in case that makes a difference.

You might even want to give people a perception check to see the beetle reverting to human form as it disintegrates.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

To get away when he knows he's outmatched.

That is a good point.

[Lawful Good]

c) Both!

He's turned to dust because that's what the spell does - but it's human dust. not beetle dust. Just in case that makes a difference.

You might even want to give people a perception check to see the beetle reverting to human form as it disintegrates.


That's a fun (if gross) visual. The situation where it came up in, a druid was trying to hide as a bug.

[Dr. Cliché]

You might even want to give people a perception check to see the beetle reverting to human form as it disintegrates.

The worst part would be if the wizard in question had no idea that it was a Druid. He was just overly zealous about pest-control.

"What have I done?!"

[Glorthindel]

c) Both!

He's turned to dust because that's what the spell does - but it's human dust. not beetle dust. Just in case that makes a difference.

You might even want to give people a perception check to see the beetle reverting to human form as it disintegrates.

That might be mildly amusing to see a disintegrated bug turn into a pile of ashes larger than the bug!

[JAL_1138]

Related question...what if you put the beetled druid into a very narrow pipe/hole/canister with nigh-indestructible walls/sides, and then did something to force it to revert to human form, like damage the beetle enough to reduce it to 0HP?

Do you end up with a liquefied druid shooting out like you squeezed a ketchup bottle really hard?

[Dr. Cliché]

Related question...what if you put the beetled druid into a very narrow pipe/hole/canister with nigh-indestructible walls/sides, and then did something to force it to revert to human form, like damage the beetle enough to reduce it to 0HP?

Do you end up with a liquefied druid shooting out like you squeezed a ketchup bottle really hard?

I think this depends on the DM. Possible rulings include:
- Druid is dead.
- Druid takes an excessive amount of damage and might be dead.
- Wild Shape is extended until he enters an area large enough to revert to his human form (if the DM is particularly cruel, he could start to revert back but stop when he runs out of room - thus leaving him as a horrific human-beetle hybrid until he gains access to a large enough space). Obviously any further damage would go straight into the Druid's own hp pool.
- The Druid magically appears next to the container (yawn).

If I was DM, I'd pick one of the first two or the hybrid option from #3. Because I think that shapeshifting and buggering about with your size should have potential consequences if you make bad decisions or if others are able to exploit your size.

Incidentally, any Druid in my campaign who turns into a much larger animal in order to swallow someone/something whole is going to have one hell of a stomachache when he turns back. :smallamused:

[nickl_2000]

I think this depends on the DM. Possible rulings include:
- Druid is dead.
- Druid takes an excessive amount of damage and might be dead.
- Wild Shape is extended until he enters an area large enough to revert to his human form (if the DM is particularly cruel, he could start to revert back but stop when he runs out of room - thus leaving him as a horrific human-beetle hybrid until he gains access to a large enough space). Obviously any further damage would go straight into the Druid's own hp pool.
- The Druid magically appears next to the container (yawn).

If I was DM, I'd pick one of the first two or the hybrid option from #3. Because I think that shapeshifting and buggering about with your size should have potential consequences if you make bad decisions or if others are able to exploit your size.

Incidentally, any Druid in my campaign who turns into a much larger animal in order to swallow someone/something whole is going to have one hell of a stomachache when he turns back. :smallamused:

I know many Druids, myself included, who would root for #3 because they want to be a horrific Human-Beetle Hybrid

[Blacky the Blackball]

I think this depends on the DM. Possible rulings include:
- Druid is dead.
- Druid takes an excessive amount of damage and might be dead.
- Wild Shape is extended until he enters an area large enough to revert to his human form (if the DM is particularly cruel, he could start to revert back but stop when he runs out of room - thus leaving him as a horrific human-beetle hybrid until he gains access to a large enough space). Obviously any further damage would go straight into the Druid's own hp pool.
- The Druid magically appears next to the container (yawn).

If I was DM, I'd pick one of the first two or the hybrid option from #3. Because I think that shapeshifting and buggering about with your size should have potential consequences if you make bad decisions or if others are able to exploit your size.

Incidentally, any Druid in my campaign who turns into a much larger animal in order to swallow someone/something whole is going to have one hell of a stomachache when he turns back. :smallamused:

This situation has actually happened in my campaign.

The PCs and their opposite numbers from the other side in the war were both at the court of a neutral country trying to persuade them to join the war on their side. The opposing group had a warlock in it, and his imp spied on the party invisibly - overhearing the druid's plan to turn into an insect and spy on them. Knowing that the insect was the party's druid, they caught it with a sleep spell (no save, and easy because of its lack of hit points) and trapped it in a jar.

We then had the question of whether the druid - once he woke up - could voluntarily turn back to normal; and what would happen when the time limit on his wildshape ran out.

I made a ruling like your #3: the druid couldn't turn back until there was room for him to do so. I later extended that ruling to the general case of any magical shrinking, enlarging or polymorphing. If there's not room for the new form the attempt fails, and if there's not room to revert back to the old form the reversion is held until there is room.

(In the end, the druid waited till he was left unattended and then used a second wild shape to turn into a rat - small enough to still fit in the jar, but strong enough to chew through the stopper and escape!)

[Coffee_Dragon]

I believe written abilities that anticipate someone occupying a space too small to hold them tend to shunt them to the nearest free space, sometimes with minor damage. I would generalize that.

[Sigreid]

I believe written abilities that anticipate someone occupying a space too small to hold them tend to shunt them to the nearest free space, sometimes with minor damage. I would generalize that.

That may be in 5e, but I like the old school where it was spelled out that if a creature expanded beyond the capacity of whatever they were in, then either their container broke or they were crushed and killed.

[JAL_1138]

I believe written abilities that anticipate someone occupying a space too small to hold them tend to shunt them to the nearest free space, sometimes with minor damage. I would generalize that.

Some of the teleports do that (teleport, dimension door, misty step), and Forcecage does shunt a creature too big for the cage when it's being cast initially out of its space as well (although it says nothing about afterward), and I can't remember whether Etherealness does or not, but the actual shapechanging ones don't seem to do that. No mention in Polymorph, True Polymorph, Gaseous Form, or Shapechange (that I can recall). Alter Self doesn't mention it, but it doesn't let you change size, so it's moot there. (Maybe if you turned into a tiefling with ram's horns while wearing a helmet?) Druid's Wild Shape doesn't either, unless I'm misremembering.

Closest I can think of (before coffee and without a PHB handy) would be Enlarge/Reduce, which stops growth at the max size available in the area, but doesn't shunt to a free space.

[Dr. Cliché]

This situation has actually happened in my campaign.

The PCs and their opposite numbers from the other side in the war were both at the court of a neutral country trying to persuade them to join the war on their side. The opposing group had a warlock in it, and his imp spied on the party invisibly - overhearing the druid's plan to turn into an insect and spy on them. Knowing that the insect was the party's druid, they caught it with a sleep spell (no save, and easy because of its lack of hit points) and trapped it in a jar.

We then had the question of whether the druid - once he woke up - could voluntarily turn back to normal; and what would happen when the time limit on his wildshape ran out.

I made a ruling like your #3: the druid couldn't turn back until there was room for him to do so. I later extended that ruling to the general case of any magical shrinking, enlarging or polymorphing. If there's not room for the new form the attempt fails, and if there's not room to revert back to the old form the reversion is held until there is room.

(In the end, the druid waited till he was left unattended and then used a second wild shape to turn into a rat - small enough to still fit in the jar, but strong enough to chew through the stopper and escape!)

Hah, that's awsome. I love the Druid's solution.

This makes me lean towards option 3 even more.


I believe written abilities that anticipate someone occupying a space too small to hold them tend to shunt them to the nearest free space, sometimes with minor damage. I would generalize that.

I dislike that ruling, honestly. It feels way too much like a deus ex machina.

I also don't like that it stifles creativity on the part of both players and villains, and also allows really bad choices to be consequence-free.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think the ideas behind the shunting paradigm, if one ever existed, are that a) players should not have to fret over details of timing and location worrying that the DM should hit them with mutilation or instagibbing, 1E-style, and on the flip side b) no one should go about trying to exploit space-limiting or shape-changing spells or abilities for instagibbing effects that would be balanced for higher levels if that were the typical use. Personally I'm fine with this not being an arena for player creativity.

Shunting can seem contrived in certain circumstances and given certain views of how shapeshifting works, such as the body being a kind of plastic mass that must expand or contract in space. However, there are other magical ways to imagine it, some of which may also offer better conceptual support for stuff like equipment merging. (Weren't there effects in 3E that had equipment continuing to function "astrally" or something?) I guess there are wordings in the books that support multiple interpretations. In at least one previous what-kills-druids thread, a major point of contention was whether shapechanging involves the same physical matter or if the physical forms are separate and switched out. Obviously those who thought Disintegrate and PWK shouldn't kill druids favoured the latter model, because then harmful effects should (they argued) simply never apply to the druid's real body.

[Goaty14]

This situation has actually happened in my campaign.

The PCs and their opposite numbers from the other side in the war were both at the court of a neutral country trying to persuade them to join the war on their side. The opposing group had a warlock in it, and his imp spied on the party invisibly - overhearing the druid's plan to turn into an insect and spy on them. Knowing that the insect was the party's druid, they caught it with a sleep spell (no save, and easy because of its lack of hit points) and trapped it in a jar.

We then had the question of whether the druid - once he woke up - could voluntarily turn back to normal; and what would happen when the time limit on his wildshape ran out.

I made a ruling like your #3: the druid couldn't turn back until there was room for him to do so. I later extended that ruling to the general case of any magical shrinking, enlarging or polymorphing. If there's not room for the new form the attempt fails, and if there's not room to revert back to the old form the reversion is held until there is room.

(In the end, the druid waited till he was left unattended and then used a second wild shape to turn into a rat - small enough to still fit in the jar, but strong enough to chew through the stopper and escape!)

I would've made the druid make a str check against the jar, since it would be similar to the enlarge animal spell.