Swashbuckler

[painmaster]

Gonna be starting a swashbuckler i cant decide to either DualWield or One Weapon. Ive thought about taking the DW feat and go 2 raipers, but something tells me there is better options and that id be wasting a feat.
Ive also been debating on Multiclassing warlock

Im really stuck here anyone care to help? I want her to get into melee and mix it up im not too keep on ranging with her

[Laserlight]

As a swash, you have two approaches: a) Get Booming Blade; you can get Sneak Attack on it but cannot use a dual wield attack (because you're casting a spell, not using the Attack action). b) Dual Wield, which doesn't get you BB damage but does give you a higher chance of landing your Sneak (as well as giving you OA immunity to a second target, if you split your attacks). Either way you run in, deliver your attack and run away again. If you stay in contact, you're doing it wrong.

For DW, the point is primarily about getting a better chance to hit (because you're making two attacks), and therefore to land your Sneak Attack. The damage die size isn't key. There are a number of people who would tell you that DW needs some adjusting; Zman has suggested some tweaks (to DW and other things), linked in his sig.

A level of Hexblade would let you use CHA to attack with, of course, as well as giving you a way to get the BB cantrip, and also, IIRC, shield proficiency so you can actually use a buckler. I think the usual Darkness/Devil's Sight would run counter to the "flashy swashbuckler" feel but YMMV, and of course Hex and Minor Illusion are always nice.

[N810]

1-3 levels in FIGHTER isn't a bad idea.

[Khrysaes]

Barbarian/Rogue with swash is also an option.

[painmaster]

I think im gonna go the Booming Blade Route , if i attack and do hit then can i declare booming blade or must i declare it on the attack? ALSO if i crit does booming blade crit as well?

Now i gotta look into what other cantrip to take besides booming blade and what level 1 spell.........Shield seems kinda good

Sugestions?

[jaappleton]

Buckle your swashes with a whip. You have Reach. The enemy HAS to move to hit you, triggering BB, unless they also have Reach.

[Aett_Thorn]

I think im gonna go the Booming Blade Route , if i attack and do hit then can i declare booming blade or must i declare it on the attack? ALSO if i crit does booming blade crit as well?

Now i gotta look into what other cantrip to take besides booming blade and what level 1 spell.........Shield seems kinda good

Sugestions?

You need to declare Booming Blade first, otherwise it would be completely overpowered. Because you need to decide it you are making an "Attack" Action, or using the "Cast a Spell" Action. But yes, if you crit, Booming Blade damage is doubled as well.

Shield is a good first level spell to take, as would be Hex if you went with the Warlock instead of Wizard spell lists.

[jaappleton]

Just something to consider:

High Elves get to start with a Wizard cantrip, meaning you can start with Booming Blade without having to spend a Feat on it.

[Corran]

I would suggest looking at the rest of your group.

Are there a lot of melee's? If yes, it might be hard to proc BB's secondary damage, so it might be better to stick with twf (I dont like the dual wielder feat though, I would stick with shortswords or scimitars). If not, then BB might be worth investing in (mc;ing to get it, or through variant halfelf or elf, or through magic initiate).

Also, do you have a reliable enough way to get advantage (such as sth granted ny an ally or a familiar, etc)? The BB is probably better than twf, since the advantage probably plays better with BB rather than with twf (although I have not run the numbers against some expected AC value), but this again brings you back into the point in the previous paragraph (ie, how often do you think you will be able to proc BB's secondary damage?).

----------------------------
Multiclassing in warlock has some sweet synergy, but there is no right answer as to whether you should multiclass or not (at least as far as I can think of). Depends on what you really want your character to do. The easiest thing to do in order to decide is to have a look at some warlock spells and perhaps even invocations, and then ask yourself: ''Do I really wanna have mu character do that?''.

And since multiclassing comes at a serious cost, you better make sure you wanted sth badly out of warlock.

[MeeposFire]

Just something to consider:

High Elves get to start with a Wizard cantrip, meaning you can start with Booming Blade without having to spend a Feat on it.

Also variant half elves from SCAG can get it too.

[painmaster]

I think im going to go Magical Initate feat.....Take Booming Blade , Eldritch Blast , And Armor of Agathas. Seems pretty good. i have a few levels to go and can decide then if i want to start taking warlock levels . But the above gives me options to EB if there is no options to Melee , hit with Booming Blade when there is AND Armor gives me Survivibility

[Khrysaes]

I think im going to go Magical Initate feat.....Take Booming Blade , Eldritch Blast , And Armor of Agathas. Seems pretty good. i have a few levels to go and can decide then if i want to start taking warlock levels . But the above gives me options to EB if there is no options to Melee , hit with Booming Blade when there is AND Armor gives me Survivibility

If you only want those spells/Cantrips, then 1 warlock is a better option than using a feat on it, if you don't mind putting the other class progression off

1 warlock, especially hexblade, would allow you to use your Cha for attack and damage, potentially reducing mad, give you hexblade curse, increasing dps for that 1 minute against that 1 enemy, and give your spell a short rest cooldown instead of the long rest of magic initiate.

You get more, for pretty much the same. it will put off your rogue progression thgouh

[painmaster]

I think i may plan to go 3 levels into rogue then go 5 levels into warlock. but ive not 100% decided on that yet.

My other option i was debating was going magic Iniate feat wizard grabbing booming blade... something else and either shield or find familiar

thoughts?

[Khrysaes]

I think i may plan to go 3 levels into rogue then go 5 levels into warlock. but ive not 100% decided on that yet.

My other option i was debating was going magic Iniate feat wizard grabbing booming blade... something else and either shield or find familiar

thoughts?

5 warlock would net you booming blade.

It could also net you extra attack OR find familiar. Depending on which pact you chose.

However using booming blade you wouldn't completely need booming blade.

Again look at hexblade. Cha for you attack and damage with 1 handed weapons would make it easier for you to pick a stat to prioritize(cha).

For hexblade curse its either a take or nice to have, you really need 14 warlock to make it great, though it is still not bad.

12 Warlock would let you add Cha to damage.(Bladelock)

Alternatively, Paladin may be nice for you, Oathbreaker, although a double edged sword lets you add cha to damage at level 7.

You also get Cha to saves, extra attack and smite.


I would recommend looking at the swashbuckler archetype features and the rogue class features. Determine which ones you REALLY want

You may want to look into 12 rogue, 6-8 paladin, 2-4 hexblade Warlock.

With 3 warlock you can get your find familiar, and then some(normal find familiar for tomelocks and improved find familar for chain, value varies depending on how much you want other level 2 rituals.)

This will net you cha to attack, damage, more damage(maybe with oathbreaker 7), ALL SAVES, and initiative. The only thing you need is to somehow get it to your AC and you pretty much replace dex with the exception of skills.

You also get all the defensive options of rogue, with the exception of the level 14 wis save proficiency. Cha to saves can make up for that.

You also can use the warlock slots to fuel your paladin smites on your attacks, allowing you to smite more often, even if it is only 2 level 2 spell slots per short rest.

From the paladin you get 2nd level spell slots from paladin. With Tomelock and the invocation, you have a huge access to first and second level spells, although nothing higher so you would certainly be a physically focused character.

[CaptainSarathai]

Gonna be starting a swashbuckler i cant decide to either DualWield or One Weapon. Ive thought about taking the DW feat and go 2 raipers, but something tells me there is better options and that id be wasting a feat.
Ive also been debating on Multiclassing warlock
Swashbucklers essentially get Mobility. Where Rogues have to use a Bonus for it, the Swash is freed up to use that Bonus elsewhere. The two major uses there would be Dual Wielding, and Shield Master-ing.

Dual Wielder is pretty garbage, to be honest. The jump from a d6 short sword to a d8 rapier is only +1 damage per blade, on average. If you just put that ASI into your attack stat, that's +1 to your damage roll. So that's +1 to the main hand, but your off hand doesn't get the ability added in. This brings me to...


1-3 levels in FIGHTER isn't a bad idea.
Precisely. Just a single level of Fighter gets you Two Weapon Fighter, allowing you to add your stat to that off weapon. From level 1-5, you are out-damaging a standard Greatsword build (ignoring GWM).
Alternately, it gives you Duellist, for +2 damage on a 1-hand build.
Athletics also lets you have an easier time with the Shield Master push-and-shove game if you go that route.
I'd stop at Fighter1 as my first level (yay Armor) and then only go up to 2 for Action Surge later on. If you go to Fighter3, you're looking at Battle Master for sure. I'd go Parry, Riposte, and Trip in that case.


I think im gonna go the Booming Blade Route , if i attack and do hit then can i declare booming blade or must i declare it on the attack? ALSO if i crit does booming blade crit as well?

Now i gotta look into what other cantrip to take besides booming blade and what level 1 spell.........Shield seems kinda good

Sugestions?
Don't run Magic Initiate for Booming Blade. Go SCAG Half-Elf, or take a level in Warlock. You get far more for far less investment.

And to answer your question: Booming Blade is not Smite. You have to declare that you're using the spell. It's no longer an Attack Action, you are now casting a Full Action Spell. You still get your Sneak Attack if applicable, but you don't get the offhand attack or extra attack.
For this reason, Booming Blade is pretty bad if you can get access to Extra Attack or anything that pumps damage on your Offhand or gives you Attack Action triggered Bonus goodies.


Buckle your swashes with a whip. You have Reach. The enemy HAS to move to hit you, triggering BB, unless they also have Reach.
This only works if you also take Spell Sniper. Booming Blade specifies that it only has a 5' range, as part of the spell.


If you only want those spells/Cantrips, then 1 warlock is a better option than using a feat on it, if you don't mind putting the other class progression off

1 warlock, especially hexblade, would allow you to use your Cha for attack and damage, potentially reducing mad, give you hexblade curse, increasing dps for that 1 minute against that 1 enemy, and give your spell a short rest cooldown instead of the long rest of magic initiate.

Yes. You also get Hex at level1, which is an extra D6 for each hit you deal. You get one of the best ranged attacks in the game, bar none, in the form of Eldritch Blast.
Going to level 2, you pick up At-Will, all day, Mage Armor for the best AC you'll get as a Rogue without MCing for Heavy Armor. You can also set up the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo which is immediate Advantage on practically everything in the game.
Go to 3rd level and you pick up a very solid Armor of Agathys for temp HP and very solid (possibly superior to Hex) damage. Go Blade Pact to unlock Smite-like effects from UA, and you also will always have a weapon at hand.
5th level Blade Pact is Extra Attack, 3rd level spells, etc.

Presently, I'm running a Fighter/Warlock. My build centers around being a tank moreso than a Rogue, but I do intend to run Rogue levels in there eventually. You severely slow your Rogue levels. Combat-wise, however, you have the option to deal a lot more damage.
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There is one option that is somewhat overlooked here: Ranger
2 levels of Ranger gives you the same advantages that you would get from Fighter1 and Warlock1; namely, Two Weapon Fighter and Hunter's Mark.
I would very strongly recommend SCAG HalfElf for this one, to grab Booming Blade early on.
The difference here is that a Ranger MC is only going to have a very limited number of castings of Hunter's Mark for the extra D6 damage. The Warlock on the other hand, gives you a casting per Short Rest - you never fully run out.

[painmaster]

Thanks for all the feedback, now yall got me confused on what to do again LOL

I also must say that i dont expect this character to run past level 8-10ish, as we are doing sunless citadel and forge of fury, then going back to our normal campain.

[xen]

I would not do the magic initiate wizard thing. You don't get enough casts of Shield to make it worth your while and Find Familiar is not as helpful for swashbuckler as other subclasses since you have other ways to proc sneak attack. For you it's just a glorified scout.

[xen]

If you're going to multi warlock, I agree going Hexblade adds interesting synergy since you already want Charisma. That would get you the spells you want as well.

[Tetrasodium]

If you've got a druid in the party (either moon or land but moon will have edge w/ beast forms over conjure spells), assassin can use the poisoner's kit to milk wildshape & summoned critters CR1 giant spider has a 2d8 dc12 save for half poison, CR1 giant toad 1d10 no save poison, CR3 giant scorpion 4d10 dc12 save for half. there might be higher level conjurable critters w/ better poisons too, but cr3 is where wildshape ends for moon druids (cr1 land)

[lunaticfringe]

If you've got a druid in the party (either moon or land but moon will have edge w/ beast forms over conjure spells), assassin can use the poisoner's kit to ilk wildshape & summoned critters CR1 giant spider has a 2d8 dc12 save for half poison, CR1 giant toad 1d10 no save poison, CR3 giant scorpion 4d10 dc12 save for half. there might be higher level conjurable critters w/ better poisons too, but cr3 is where wildshape ends for moon druids (cr1 land)

Customize a background or pay for Poisoner's Kit training during down time with your loot.

[MeeposFire]

I would not do the magic initiate wizard thing. You don't get enough casts of Shield to make it worth your while and Find Familiar is not as helpful for swashbuckler as other subclasses since you have other ways to proc sneak attack. For you it's just a glorified scout.

Find familiar is better than that. Remember if you decide to use booming blade one of its drawbacks is that you cannot 2 weapon fight to get 2 attempts at SA. Familiars allow you to get actual advantage using the help action which will give you two attempts at getting a hit thus helping you ensure SA. Advantage is not quite as good as two actual attacks but it really helps if you want to use booming blade.

[Corran]

Advantage is not quite as good as two actual attacks but it really helps if you want to use booming blade.
Yes, but it kinda makes up for it in the rare(?) cases when you suffer disadvantage, as it cancels it and allows for sneak attack to apply. Disadvantage can really shut down a rogue...

[lunaticfringe]

Yes, but it kinda makes up for it in the rare(?) cases when you suffer disadvantage, as it cancels it and allows for sneak attack to apply. Disadvantage can really shut down a rogue...

Pretty sure Disadvantage shuts down everyone, that's why it sucks.

[painmaster]

*Sigh*

i really cant decide on what i wanna do , so many good and bad ideas here....so much stress lol

Normally when i build a character i plan step by step on how to start what to take and when to multi (if needed)

Struggling with this one

But i appericate everyones input so thanks

[Mortis_Elrod]

*Sigh*

i really cant decide on what i wanna do , so many good and bad ideas here....so much stress lol

Normally when i build a character i plan step by step on how to start what to take and when to multi (if needed)

Struggling with this one

But i appericate everyones input so thanks

Might i suggest the non magic route? Introducing Nyanta my favorite fictional swashbuckler.



He's a Gentleman and a Chef and is an amazing swashbuckler rocking 2 rapiers as they are in his own words 'the only weapon fit for a gentleman'. This is how i would stat him. he's also a cat man.

level 12 build
Tabaxi Male
Background Clan Crafter (Master Chef)
Battlemaster 8/Swashbuckler 4
27 point buy after levels and racials
8/20/16/8/10/16
Feats: Dual Wielder, Gourmand
AC: 17 avg HP: 108
Maneuvers: Rally, Riposte, Parry, Disarming Strike, Tripping Attack. SD: 5d8 DC: 17
Skills: Perception(expertise) , Stealth, Acrobatics , Intimidation, Persuasion(expertise), History, Insight, Thieves tools, Cooking Utensils (gourmand).
TWFing style, 2d6 sneak attack and if you want 18 dex instead you can grab Blade mastery instead adding a bit more to your AC. You get all the tabaxi goodness (claws, feline agility, darkvision, and being a cool cat).


Edit: I would start Fighter for 2 levels then go into rogue for 4 then the rest fighter. Alot of people suggest gunning for Extra attack ASAP but thats not strictly necessary. You can however do so if you think it is. Going fighter 5 into rogue 4 then back into fighter is fine too and doesn't stop the character's theme. In any case i built this in the idea of starting fighter then grabbing rogue before hitting 8 in fighter. If i were to build this to 20 i would finish as BM 8/Swash 12. getting 6d6 SA, Panache, Evasion , Uncanny Dodge, Reliable Talent, And second expertise options (probably for Stealth and Acrobatics or insight or something.) Also an extra ASI or feat. 3 more ASI means 20 CHA and Blade Mastery, adding +1 to AC with reaction every turn you aren't expecting to use your OA, and also a +1 to hit with both weapons. You still do 3 attacks per turn with twf and extra attack and get SA damage on top.

Remember you're a Chef as well and the dwarves love you'e cooking and they have a very refined pallet.

[Khrysaes]

Might i suggest the non magic route? Introducing Nyanta my favorite fictional swashbuckler.



He's a Gentleman and a Chef and is an amazing swashbuckler rocking 2 rapiers as they are in his own words 'the only weapon fit for a gentleman'. This is how i would stat him. he's also a cat man.

level 12 build
Tabaxi Male
Background Clan Crafter (Master Chef)
Battlemaster 8/Swashbuckler 4
27 point buy after levels and racials
8/20/16/8/10/16
Feats: Dual Wielder, Gourmand
AC: 17 avg HP: 108
Maneuvers: Rally, Riposte, Parry, Disarming Strike, Tripping Attack. SD: 5d8 DC: 17
Skills: Perception(expertise) , Stealth, Acrobatics , Intimidation, Persuasion(expertise), History, Insight, Thieves tools, Cooking Utensils (gourmand).
TWFing style, 2d6 sneak attack and if you want 18 dex instead you can grab Blade mastery instead adding a bit more to your AC. You get all the tabaxi goodness (claws, feline agility, darkvision, and being a cool cat).


Edit: I would start Fighter for 2 levels then go into rogue for 4 then the rest fighter. Alot of people suggest gunning for Extra attack ASAP but thats not strictly necessary. You can however do so if you think it is. Going fighter 5 into rogue 4 then back into fighter is fine too and doesn't stop the character's theme. In any case i built this in the idea of starting fighter then grabbing rogue before hitting 8 in fighter. If i were to build this to 20 i would finish as BM 8/Swash 12. getting 6d6 SA, Panache, Evasion , Uncanny Dodge, Reliable Talent, And second expertise options (probably for Stealth and Acrobatics or insight or something.) Also an extra ASI or feat. 3 more ASI means 20 CHA and Blade Mastery, adding +1 to AC with reaction every turn you aren't expecting to use your OA, and also a +1 to hit with both weapons. You still do 3 attacks per turn with twf and extra attack and get SA damage on top.

Remember you're a Chef as well and the dwarves love you'e cooking and they have a very refined pallet.

I thought of almost this exact character. In the end I decided to go with bows, and throw in a couple of ranger levels, going for Hunter(From Spyro), rather than Nyanta, although it is more of a hybrid.

It took me a minute to understand how your Ability scores work. and even then I don't think I am correct. So a breakdown would be nice.

Also please at least name the sources of the non PHB things because it took a minute to find them. Others may not know where to begin.

My guess, start with 8, 15, 14, 8, 10, 15.

Tabaxi Racials give: +2 dec, +1 cha

First ASI +2 Dex
Second ASI +1 dex, +1 con.
Third: Gourmand +1 con.
Fourth: Dual Wielder.
The order may change.

Bringing it to 8, 20, 16, 8, 10, 16.

Also be sure to note that you have expertise with the cooking utensils, because Battle master gives you proficiency with an artisan's tools like Cook's Utensils.

[painmaster]

Allright decided to go 3 levels rogue then go 5 levels into pact of the blade lock. Still haven't quite decided on feat I plan to take

[Klorox]

Buckle your swashes with a whip. You have Reach. The enemy HAS to move to hit you, triggering BB, unless they also have Reach.

I like the idea, but BB has a range of 5'.

[MeeposFire]

I like the idea, but BB has a range of 5'.

Yea you would need spell sniper to fix that problem.