Is Legolas a Fighter or Ranger

[Ivor_The_Mad]

The source of many debates between me and my friend is the class of many movie charictors. One of the ones that is still undecided is weather Legolas is a fighter or a ranger. Please tell me your opinion and if you have any more classes for movie characters please tell me.

[jaappleton]

Depends.

What level do you want to start at?

Heck, Drizz't is supposedly the most famous Ranger there is.

When Chris Perkins played the character during Acquisitions Incorporated, he built him as a Fighter.

[Mongobear]

I'd say it depends on which movie trilogy you're basing it off of.

LotR's Legolas felt more like a Battle Master Fighter. Shooting two guys at once = sweeping attack, sliding down stairs on a shield = Acrobatics + Evasive Footwork, emo argument with Aragorn at Helm's Deep = Know Your Enemy on the Uruk'hai army closing in on them.


The Hobbit's Legolas felt more Rangery, he was in his favored terrain and his entire point was Hunting down and slaying orcs.

Perhaps a Multi-Classed Hunter Ranger/Battle Master Fighter would best represent him, say Ranger 4/Fighter 16 if you were making a 20th level character out of him. Take TWFing and Archery styles, Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy (recent UA article), and maybe Crossbow Master just for the melee archery bonus, but this part could be ignored.

[Morty]

The answer is that fictional characters won't map perfectly to a tabletop game made decades after the book was written, and emulating a different sort of fantasy story than the book did. So you could represent him as either a fighter, or a ranger. Or a fighter/ranger, for that matter. In any of those cases, you'd be as close as you're going to get.

[Misterwhisper]

The source of many debates between me and my friend is the class of many movie charictors. One of the ones that is still undecided is weather Legolas is a fighter or a ranger. Please tell me your opinion and if you have any more classes for movie characters please tell me.

In 5th edition I could see him being a battlemaster fighter or a hunter ranger

I see him much better represented as a pathfinder switch hitter ranger with the skirmisher archetype.

Back in 3.0 when they published a Drizz't character sheet he was mostly fighter. Going from memory I think he was 11 fighter, 1 barbarian and 4 ranger.

[Demonslayer666]

I'd say he is more of a fighter than a ranger in D&D terms.

[jaappleton]

There was a Spell-less Ranger in an Unearned Arcana that got Battlemaster maneuvers.

[krunchyfrogg]

If you need to make a choice between the two, he's a fighter (battlemaster).

He's probably some sort of multiclass though.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

I'd say it depends on which movie trilogy you're basing it off of.

LotR's Legolas felt more like a Battle Master Fighter. Shooting two guys at once = sweeping attack, sliding down stairs on a shield = Acrobatics + Evasive Footwork, emo argument with Aragorn at Helm's Deep = Know Your Enemy on the Uruk'hai army closing in on them.


The Hobbit's Legolas felt more Rangery, he was in his favored terrain and his entire point was Hunting down and slaying orcs.

Perhaps a Multi-Classed Hunter Ranger/Battle Master Fighter would best represent him, say Ranger 4/Fighter 16 if you were making a 20th level character out of him. Take TWFing and Archery styles, Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy (recent UA article), and maybe Crossbow Master just for the melee archery bonus, but this part could be ignored.

Totally agree with this. I'd say he'd have the observant feat too

[lunaticfringe]

Drizzt in Salvatore's mind would be mostly fighter with a Ranger & Barbarian dip (he rages quite a bit, and does go Semi-Feral on occasion).

Legolas is a straight up Outlander Battlemaster Fighter with maybe a bit of Rogue IMHO.

[PeteNutButter]

These type of discussions frequently come up and I feel people always flock to BM fighter for every character in every movie, because action scenes have people doing things that aren't boring. Characters in movies do maneuvers, because just rolling d20s all day is as boring on screen as it is in game. I don't think that should make them all be BM fighters.

That said, I think Legolas is a Hunter Ranger hands down (MC fighter as required if using PHB ranger, since you can't have him be a turd).
Aragorn is of course a melee focused ranger himself, who leans towards paladin by the end of the trilogy (You'll notice he gets heavier armor for the final fight in the movies [UPGRADES], additionally he unlocks his leadership auras).
What's Gimli? Just a fighter? I think he has some barbarian levels. He was definitely raging most fights.
The funny thing is Gandalf uses a lot of cleric esq abilities, more than wizard type things.
Boromir is a fighter, or you could say Paladin of the Crown.
The hobbits are mostly rogues (or useless baggage), with Merry and Pippin picking up fighter levels. Sam might even pick up a level in barbarian. Frodo just picks up exhuastion levels. :smallyuk:

Like has been mentioned, things don't always port over so well into a PnP game with its own arbitrary classes.

[Unoriginal]

Movie Gimli's not a Barbarian.

Ironicaly, if you wanted to make book Gimli you would need a few levels of Rogue, probably.


These type of discussions frequently come up and I feel people always flock to BM fighter for every character in every movie, because action scenes have people doing things that aren't boring. Characters in movies do maneuvers, because just rolling d20s all day is as boring on screen as it is in game.

People tend to forget anyone can do actions like that. Just less good than a BM in general.

[lunaticfringe]

Except people confuse Ranger the Class with Ranger the Job/Organization. I don't think Strider would have levels in the ranger class at all. Heck Gandalf ain't really much of a Wizard, seems more like Lock to me.

[the_brazenburn]

Oh, he's a fighter. Hands down. Can't argue with that at all. And I'm totally not biased. I'm the friend being discussed. Think again before posting on a public forum, Ivor_The_Mad.

[Vaz]

Champion Fighter.

[Findulidas]

Oh god I remember back when the first film was released. The amount of kids doing legolas characters in online games.

Also since aragorn is a ranger then clearly legolas must be as well. Gimli and Boromir are the fighters.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Oh, he's a fighter. Hands down. Can't argue with that at all. And I'm totally not biased. I'm the friend being discussed. Think again before posting on a public forum, Ivor_The_Mad.


Fine Fine You were right i get it :)

[Ralanr]

Depends.

What level do you want to start at?

Heck, Drizz't is supposedly the most famous Ranger there is.

When Chris Perkins played the character during Acquisitions Incorporated, he built him as a Fighter.

If it was a 5e game, I blame that on ranger being bad.

[MeeposFire]

If it was a 5e game, I blame that on ranger being bad.

Nah it is more due to how many of the base class features not being that fitting. The ones that do can be mostly done elsewhere while the fighter class fits in many ways better.

[lunaticfringe]

Nah Drizzt went to Fighter College and only casts Racial spells. His Animal Companion is a Figurine of Wonderous Power. He just dipped Ranger.

I'm not up on my books though could have changed over the years.

[Ralanr]

Nah Drizzt went to Fighter College and only casts Racial spells. His Animal Companion is a Figurine of Wonderous Power. He just dipped Ranger.

I'm not up on my books though could have changed over the years.

Don't forget that he's blessed by a nature goddess.

[solidork]

I'm starting to have the mindset that you should just make a custom monster style stat block for creating specific NPCs like this.

[MeeposFire]

Don't forget that he's blessed by a nature goddess.

Yea lots of fighters get blessed by deities to show their approval though that does not make ranger the better representation of what you actually see these characters in the books. Also that is from FR non-ranger/cleric/paladin deity blessed characters are legion there.

[Ralanr]

Yea lots of fighters get blessed by deities to show their approval though that does not make ranger the better representation of what you actually see these characters in the books. Also that is from FR non-ranger/cleric/paladin deity blessed characters are legion there.

I was more going for the interpretation that Drizzit has a lot of good **** going for him.

I don't like him as a character honestly.

[Haberdasher]

If we expand the field to Unearthed Arcana, the Scout Fighter gives you the combat prowess of a Fighter with the exploration abilities and Favored Terrain of a Ranger.

[Citan]

Hi!

IMO it's certainly a Spellless Ranger the most fitting class for Legolas.
If you would stick to PHB, then I'd go for a pure Ranger or a multiclass Ranger / Fighter.

Ranger would be normally gold, except that Legolas doesn't use any magic at all so a third of Ranger features is wasted. Everything else though is totally spot-on: ability to shoot enemies very fast (Horde Breaker / Volley), ability to track Favored Enemies (Orcs, Goblins) and move better in Favored Terrain (Forest, Jungle, Plains) without being burdened by difficult terrain, and being extremely stealthy (Pass Without Trace, Vanish) and accurate (Feral Senses).

So if you could bear a refluff of magic spells as "natural abilities", then even a plain Ranger would fit, using mainly Pass Without Trace, Hunter's Mark, Longstrider, Jump and Freedom of Movement / Swift Quiver as usual tactics, sometimes using Conjure Barrage or Flame Arrows.

But my personal view of what would be the most fitting would be a Hunter Ranger with a 3-level dip of Battlemaster for Precision and Disarm/Trip manoeuvers. :)

[Corran]

and if you have any more classes for movie characters please tell me.
I see Baristan Selmy of GoT as a fighter (BM)/ Rogue (Thief) multiclass, but I am drawing a lot of inspiration for this (mainly the thief part) from a book chapter where some character described how Selmy had infiltrated a castle where Aerys was held prisoner and saved him. The BM part csn easily be justified just from the show. I will probably sit down at some point and try to gather whatever I can find on this character and then try to build the most accurate depiction I can of him, but this is what I've got so far from memory.

ps: As for legolas.... his class is clearly elf!:smallbiggrin:

[Anonymouswizard]

5e is very weird when it comes to 'what class is X character', due to the simple fact that magic is more common than in most editions. There's only 3 classes than can be built without any 'magic' (four if you don't count ki), and two that gain magic at second level. However, in the majority of media magic is relatively rare, with only a couple of main cast members generally having magic.

So this is where we get to 'ranger fits so well, but Legolas/Aragorn never uses magic' (okay, Aragorn might have a couple of spells per day). In 3.X the paladin's and ranger's magic was minor and nowhere near as integral to the classes as in 5e, as well as few fictional characters being high enough level to hit ranger/paladin magic.

My main rule is that most of the time mundane characters are fighters or rogues, and magicians are clerics or druids (more often wizards in post-D&D media). It just seems to fit better for me, mundane characters are either 'combat focused' or 'skill focused', while magical characters tend to get their magic from an outside source (gods/spirits/nature).

Ironically the Cthulhu Mythos has surprisingly Sorcerer like magic, while it's often granted by gods it's also just insanely advanced science that can be passed from human a to human b.

[Knaight]

As has been pointed out, the entire conceptualization of "Which class is Legolas" falls flat because Legolas isn't a character from D&D fiction and thus wasn't made to be any of them. The question is more about which class can be better used to model Legolas, and while both are pretty bad I'd argue that Fighter fits better entirely because it's deliberately more generic and thus has less specifically dedicated to the wrong concept.

[jaappleton]

Legolas would be part Rogue (Thief), definitely.

Cunning Action and that climb speed? Absolutely.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I was more going for the interpretation that Drizzit has a lot of good **** going for him.

I don't like him as a character honestly.

I prefer Artemis Entreri. He's my favorite character along with Jarlaxle from the Salvatore books.

[Arkhios]

IMO Legolas falls snugly into Fighter chassis, likely Champion of at least 7th level (Remarkable Athlete) and, as jaappleton suggested, might have at least 3 levels of Rogue with Thief archetype.

If anyone from LotR truly is a Ranger, it's Aragorn (duh) :smallbiggrin:

[Anonymouswizard]

IMO Legolas falls snugly into Fighter chassis, likely Champion of at least 7th level (Remarkable Athlete) and, as jaappleton suggested, might have at least 3 levels of Rogue with Thief archetype.

If anyone from LotR truly is a Ranger, it's Aragorn (duh) :smallbiggrin:

Book or film? I'd say book Aragorn had at least as much Paladin as Ranger.

[Arkhios]

Book or film? I'd say book Aragorn had at least as much Paladin as Ranger.

Both book and film. If you're referring to Aragorn's personal code of conduct or "tenets", I wouldn't say you have to be paladin to follow those. Mechanically, Aragorn couldn't heal a fly with a mere touch, so there goes Lay on Hands out the window. He is more nature-savvy than any of his companions. When healing Frodo he did it by applying select herbs to Frodo's wound, which is more like ranger's magic in my opinion. Honestly though, I haven't read the book in years so it might be that the film iteration of the scene has wiped my memory of the book's iteration.

[Vaz]

Refluffed Healing Elixir, Destined to be the King of Gondor when he takes up the Shards of Narsil... He's clearly a Hexblade Warlock bound to Anduril.

[Hypersmith]

The answer is that fictional characters won't map perfectly to a tabletop game made decades after the book was written, and emulating a different sort of fantasy story than the book did. So you could represent him as either a fighter, or a ranger. Or a fighter/ranger, for that matter. In any of those cases, you'd be as close as you're going to get.

/thread tbh

[EvilAnagram]

Except people confuse Ranger the Class with Ranger the Job/Organization. I don't think Strider would have levels in the ranger class at all. Heck Gandalf ain't really much of a Wizard, seems more like Lock to me.

Aragorn uses plants to cast healing magic, has excellent tracking and survival skills, is proficient in martial weapons and medium armor, and nails his Wis save against Sauron when he uses the palantir. Ranger fits him best, by far. It's just a low level campaign.

Gandalf, however, a lower class of angel, so you're right about not being a wizard.

[EvilAnagram]

When healing Frodo he did it by applying select herbs to Frodo's wound, which is more like ranger's magic in my opinion. Honestly though, I haven't read the book in years so it might be that the film iteration of the scene has wiped my memory of the book's iteration.

He uses athelas, or kingsfoil, a common weed that, in the hands of the king, can heal the most grievous hurts Mordor can inflict, even the corruption of the Witch-king.

It's a healing herb, but his power amplifies its own. Definitely a ranger.

[Findulidas]

/thread tbh

Im pretty sure everyone is aware of this fact.

What is faramir then? Ranger or fighter?

[PeteNutButter]

Im pretty sure everyone is aware of this fact.

What is faramir then? Ranger or fighter?

I'd say ranger. IMO you reserve fighter only for characters who are so bland that they can't fit ranger, paladin, rogue or barbarian. A guy sneaking around in a green cloak with a bow has got to be a ranger.

[Ralanr]

I'd say ranger. IMO you reserve fighter only for characters who are so bland that they can't fit ranger, paladin, rogue or barbarian. A guy sneaking around in a green cloak with a bow has got to be a ranger.

Or a rogue with proficiency in nature and survival.

Or a fighter with nature and survival.

Honestly as long as you have nature, survival, stealth, and proficiency in bows then you can pull off "ranger" for all thematics outside of D&D.

That's probably why D&D rangers even have spells. To better separate themselves from fighters that like to go forest trekking.

[Unoriginal]

Gandalf, however, a lower class of angel, so you're right about not being a wizard.

Not really lower class.

On the other hand, he was way more like the traditional idea of a wizard in the books, as he actually cast spells he had learned.

Peter Jackson removed a lot of the magic in the movies.

[EvilAnagram]

Not really lower class.

On the other hand, he was way more like the traditional idea of a wizard in the books, as he actually cast spells he had learned.

Peter Jackson removed a lot of the magic in the movies.

Definitely one of the lower tier angels. He was a maiar, and not a particularly powerful one. And he never cast spells as we understand them. He produced fire (with his ring of power), for certain, but other than that he simply projected his will on the world without the can tattoos or rituals we see from the elves or Aragorn. And it's worth remembering that he only brought his actual power to bear against the Nazgul and Sauruman, inhuman wraith and a fallen angel, respectively.


Im pretty sure everyone is aware of this fact.

What is faramir then? Ranger or fighter?

Purple Dragon Knight. Probably with a 14+ in both strength and dexterity.

[Asmotherion]

Lore Wise, he's a Ranger. However, due to lack of magical ability (at least in the movies as I unfortunatelly have not yet read the books), he is a Fighter mechanics wise. The perfect compromise is the Ranger with no spells in the class homebrewing examples.



Not really lower class.

On the other hand, he was way more like the traditional idea of a wizard in the books, as he actually cast spells he had learned.

Peter Jackson removed a lot of the magic in the movies.

In D&D, I think the perfect incarnation of Gandalf would be a Favored Soul Sorcerer Aasimar, as:

1) His magic is definitelly Arcane
2) He has a connection to the Divine and the Gods, and is himself a spiritual being.
3) Has a mortal side, as apparent when he is angry, or stubborn, or when he has to make tough choices between his duty and what he feels is right (as a pure celestial would not have to face such things, and would only do his duty, never questioning if it is the right choice or not).

[Laurefindel]

Both Faramir and Aragorn display an aura of courage of some sort in the books, and excel at inspiring and leading men on the battlefield, and are driven by a strong code of conduct. Both are also High Men with high "Numenorean heritage" (unlike Boromir) to which some virtues could be attributed. Whether this is represented by a high CHA score/ relevant skill, a feat of some sort, some Paladin levels or a racial trait is purely a game construct and subject of debate.

Similarly, both are apt in the ways of the wilderness. Again, whether this is represented by high WIS score / relevant skill, a feat of some sort or some ranger levels is also open to debate.

Book Aragorn is highly praised by Gandalf as the best tracker of his age however, which suggests more than just a high Survival modifier IMO. Personally, I like to see Aragorn as a Ranger / Paladin multiclass with above-average stats.

Book Boromir is praised as one of the best warrior and leader of men in Gondor, but he's also torn between self-sacrifice and fame/glory/victory. Unlike his brother who leads with wisdom, Boromir leads by example. I think this is best represented by fighter in D&D.

Book Legolas doesn't show much ranger-ness other than being an Elf of Mirkwood whose kingdom is in a middle of a forest. As the son of a king, he may not be the one doing the actual hunting and gathering in his community, so nothing screams ranger about him. He's light of foot, agile, perceptive, doesn't wear armor, is exceptional with a bow and can keep his own with nothing but an elven battle knife (dagger? short sword?) against fully armed orcs. If anything, that's a D&D rogue, perhaps with fighter levels.

A good case could be made about Eomer (or the riders of Rohan in general) being a D&D barbarian, with all the singing and the "joy of battle" and then the killing rage that follows the death of their king on the Pelennor fields.

[Scots Dragon]

I prefer to think of Legolas as a fighter or fighter/rogue with at most a few extra abilities from his background and race. He doesn't fit the concept of ranger in the books as he's not the party tracker, and indeed despite his amazingly inhuman senses he's outdone several times over by Aragorn.


In D&D, I think the perfect incarnation of Gandalf would be a Favored Soul Sorcerer Aasimar, as:

1) His magic is definitelly Arcane
2) He has a connection to the Divine and the Gods, and is himself a spiritual being.
3) Has a mortal side, as apparent when he is angry, or stubborn, or when he has to make tough choices between his duty and what he feels is right (as a pure celestial would not have to face such things, and would only do his duty, never questioning if it is the right choice or not).

Gandalf is really just a modified version of the guy on page 18 of the Monster Manual, losing the wings, reducing size to medium, and replacing the greatsword and longbow with Glamdring, but importing forward the ability to cast cleric and wizard spells from its AD&D 2E incarnation. The teleport legendary action is replaced with the ability to cast dispel magic as a bonus action or something.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ranger. Wood Elf. Maybe a two level Fighter Dip for another Fighting style? He certainly has the Archery and Two Weapon style down. Possibly Sharp Shooter feat.

[Joe the Rat]

Prior to 2e, Aragorn wasn't a ranger, Rangers were Aragorn. They could wear heavy armor (which was not appropriate for a mission of stealth an speed, such as simply walking into Mordor), they were superb with woodlore, and they eventually got spells and access to Palantirs divination magic items.
2e decided we needed more robin hood (despite marking him as a thief), and turn Drizz'ts racial ambidexterity and make it a class feature.
So here we are.

Legolas... was a scout, and knows trees, but was not the best tracker of the lot, despite being far older. He just had elvish eyes and heavy investment in Balance Ways.

To the original, if I were to make a Legolas character... Wood elf Hunter Ranger X and Rogue 2. Favored Terrain: CGI Woods, Archery style, Horde Breaker, Sharpshooter feat. Cunning anction and Expertise in Perception and Acrobatics. Wisdom 13. Optional Tavern Brawler to use arrows and shields and smoldering looks as improvised weapons. Spell usage... Hunter's Mark and shooty boosters mostly. He probably burns most on Primeval Awareness.

Or I'd use The One Ring...


I'm starting to have the mindset that you should just make a custom monster style stat block for creating specific NPCs like this.
Absolutely. Never let character creation rules get in the way of making an NPC that the players will want to kill on principle.

[Scots Dragon]

Or I'd use The One Ring...

Well... (http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/adventures-in-middle-earth/)

From what I can tell in this system he'd probably be a warrior with the weaponmaster archetype, which would match up loosely to a fighter-champion.

[rooneg]

I've got a Wood Elf Rogue 2/Fighter X with the Outlander background and the Sharpshooter feat that's pretty dead on for how I'd build Legolas in 5e.

As for Drizzt, considering his complete lack of ranger spellcasting I'd have trouble envisioning him as having more than 1 ranger level, maybe not even that. You could model his "hunter" persona via a Barbarian dip, but it would assume he was actually making STR based attacks, which seems unlikely for such a DEX based character. Just going with 100% Battlemaster Fighter with the TWF style and an Outlander background seems to fit better. He might also have a level or two of Rogue.

[Scots Dragon]

I've got a Wood Elf Rogue 2/Fighter X with the Outlander background and the Sharpshooter feat that's pretty dead on for how I'd build Legolas in 5e.

As for Drizzt, considering his complete lack of ranger spellcasting I'd have trouble envisioning him as having more than 1 ranger level, maybe not even that. You could model his "hunter" persona via a Barbarian dip, but it would assume he was actually making STR based attacks, which seems unlikely for such a DEX based character. Just going with 100% Battlemaster Fighter with the TWF style and an Outlander background seems to fit better. He might also have a level or two of Rogue.

I'm almost certain the scout archetype for the fighter is pretty much custom-built for Drizzt.

[Laurefindel]

wasn't Drizzt somewhat officially stated out as a champion fighter in 5E?

[KorvinStarmast]

wasn't Drizzt somewhat officially stated out as a champion fighter in 5E?
Out of the Abyss?

[Laurefindel]

Out of the Abyss?

nah, I found it. It only was a Chris Perkins tweet (https://twitter.com/chrisperkinsdnd/status/728601485987041280?lang=en). 8th level champion fighter, no feats.

[KorvinStarmast]

nah, I found it. It only was a Chris Perkins tweet (https://twitter.com/chrisperkinsdnd/status/728601485987041280?lang=en). 8th level champion fighter, no feats.
Given how long Drzzt has been around, and how 5e levels work, I'd say he's a 10th level character (at a minimum) rather than 8th. (Consider some of the awesome campaigns, challenges, monsters he's overcome).
Hmmmm. He has dual wielder feat.

[Ralanr]

Given how long Drzzt has been around, and how 5e levels work, I'd say he's a 10th level character (at a minimum) rather than 8th. (Consider some of the awesome campaigns, challenges, monsters he's overcome).
Hmmmm. He has dual wielder feat.

Don't need the feat to dual wield scimitars.

[Laurefindel]

Don't need the feat to dual wield scimitars.

I think KorvinStarmast is right; his AC increases by 1 when he dual wields.

[edit] indeed as KorvinStarmast says, it's inscribed under 'class features'

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't need the feat to dual wield scimitars. I don't disagree. However, I actually read the sheet that Chris Perkins posted on twitter. Says right there Dual Wielder (Feat). First Page, second column, Class Features, first entry.

[jaappleton]

Chris Perkins did stat him as a Champion Fighter.

I believe that in the D&D Beyond preview, they actually have Drizz't statted as a Fighter / Hunter multiclass.

[KorvinStarmast]

I believe that in the D&D Beyond preview, they actually have Drizz't statted as a Fighter / Hunter multiclass. Makes sense to me.

(That was weird, did I have multi quote on or something?)

[jaappleton]

Makes sense to me.

Please quote the appropriate person, because now I'm wondering if I live in an alt-dimension and frankly, I'm terrified. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

Aragorn uses plants to cast healing magic, has excellent tracking and survival skills, is proficient in martial weapons and medium armor, and nails his Wis save against Sauron when he uses the palantir. Ranger fits him best, by far. It's just a low level campaign.

Gandalf, however, a lower class of angel, so you're right about not being a wizard. Possibly a Lore Bard 20, and an Assimar (Volos) Lore Bard 20. (Or maybe a lower level ...) I've seen some good arguments (IIRC right here on GiTP forums) that as a 5e PC Gandalf fits well enough as a high level Lore Bard. I prefer to view him as a celestial of some sort, be it Deva or whatever, but that kit does not seem to fit as well in terms of how Gandalf is written.

[Dr.Samurai]

As portrayed in the movies, Legolas would be a demigod at least, perhaps more. Fifth edition doesn't have a divine rank mechanic yet, so we can't really do him justice at the moment.

As portrayed in the books, he'd be an archer fighter, scout archetype seems right.

On the other hand, a spell-less hunter ranger could also fit.

[Unoriginal]

Definitely one of the lower tier angels. He was a maiar, and not a particularly powerful one.

Maiar aren't low class, although it's true he wasn't really mighty. Unless you meant "they aren't the bosses", in which case it's true, but doesn't mean they're low.


And he never cast spells as we understand them. He produced fire (with his ring of power), for certain, but other than that he simply projected his will on the world

No, he did cast spells as we understand them. The most obvious exemple is when he cast a spell on a door to slow down the enemies in the Moria, but there are other instances.


I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind.


'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.



What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces.

Just to show a few.


without the can tattoos or rituals we see from the elves or Aragorn

What. Did you mean incantation?


And it's worth remembering that he only brought his actual power to bear against the Nazgul and Sauruman, inhuman wraith and a fallen angel, respectively.

That's just not true.

[Arkhios]

As portrayed in the movies, Legolas would be a demigod at least, perhaps more. Fifth edition doesn't have a divine rank mechanic yet, so we can't really do him justice at the moment.

I'm not sure what makes Legolas a demigod. Yes, he's thousands of years old, but Tolkien's Elves are practically immortal, and thus tend to be very old unless they die a violent death. But that doesn't make them demigods. I doubt elves' longevity is the rightful measurement to call an individual - or, moreover, the people - demigods. Legolas is only one elf among others, even though he was/is the prince of Mirkwood.

Gandalf is more like a demigod. Although, arguably you could say he is more than that.

[EvilAnagram]

Lore Wise, he's a Ranger. However, due to lack of magical ability (at least in the movies as I unfortunatelly have not yet read the books), he is a Fighter mechanics wise. The perfect compromise is the Ranger with no spells in the class homebrewing examples.
As several people have pointed out, myself included, Aragorn uses healing magic multiple times in the books. I get that you haven't read the books, but you should still read the thread before commenting.

As for Gandalf, I would still say he's a Cleric. He literally says, "I wield the flame of Anor," the fire of creation that flows from Eru. I suppose you could argue the Favored Soul also wields divine fire, though.

[EvilAnagram]

Maiar aren't low class, although it's true he wasn't really mighty. Unless you meant "they aren't the bosses", in which case it's true, but doesn't mean they're low.
Maia are a lower tier than the Valar, and those are really the only angelic tiers in this setting. Therefore, he is of the lower class of angels in the setting. That said, even amongst the Maia, he is not terribly powerful. He was asked to go on his mission for his wisdom, not his strength.




No, he did cast spells as we understand them. The most obvious exemple is when he cast a spell on a door to slow down the enemies in the Moria, but there are other instances.


That's just not true.
The mine had slipped my mind, but I don't recall terribly many uses of magic outside of that instance, the times he subtly welded the ring he bore, and the times he brought it to bear against immortals (Saruman, Durin's Bane, the Nazgul). He didn't just go around smiting wild men and orcs with heavenly fire.


What. Did you mean incantation?
I think what I meant is that my phone was having some sort of seizure.

I was referring to incantations, which as you pointed out he does make use of. My point was that while he can certainly make use of the nebulous magic that infuses Arda, he only bears his angelic power on entities that rival his power.

[Laurefindel]

As several people have pointed out, myself included, Aragorn uses healing magic multiple times in the books. I get that you haven't read the books, but you should still read the thread before commenting.

which could be attributable to being one of the last pure-blooded Numenorean raised by the master-healer Elrond. As far as D&D is concerned, this could simply be the Magic Initiate feat slapped on any class.

Magic in Middle Earth is more subtle than in your vanilla D&D game and is therefore hard to transpose. I agree that Aragorn is (at least partially) a D&D ranger, but mostly because of Primeval Awareness and him being a peerless tracker and woodsman (according to Gandalf anyway).

[EvilAnagram]

which could be attributable to being one of the last pure-blooded Numenorean raised by the master-healer Elrond. As far as D&D is concerned, this could simply be the Magic Initiate feat slapped on any class.
You know what they call the last pure-blooded Numenoreans in LotR?

...

...

...

Rangers.

More importantly, if Magic Initiate can't land you Lesser Restoration, which Aragorn would definitely need to accomplish some of his freeways in the books.

You're right, though. Magic in Middle Earth is subtle, and D&D magic generally is not. That said, the fact is that Gygax and co. looked a Aragorn - a wandering warrior and woodsman who knew healing incantations and possessed incredible martial prowess - and they used him as the template for the Ranger in their little game. He is the mold from which rangers are cast, and so the archetype fits him perfectly.

[DnD Coliseum]

legolas is totally a ranger guys :)

[Arkhios]

legolas is totally a ranger guys :)

I tried not to, but I have to disagree.

Legolas is very good with a bow, there's no doubt in that. Well, guess what? A fighter can be as good an archer as ranger could. Better even. Not only fighter gets the very same Archery Style as rangers do, fighters also get much more attacks than rangers.

Legolas has never used a single magical ability. Rangers (such as Aragorn) can use magic, for example healing magic.
Legolas can see far, that's about it. Guess what, that's taken care of by him being an elf. All elves are very perceptive by nature, not just elven rangers.

Legolas is crappy at tracking. Rangers (especially Aragorn) are anything but.

Legolas isn't even that stealthy as you might think. He only relies on his incredible skill with bow, like many other elves. Being able to shoot far and precisely makes you consummate archer already. You don't have to be a Ranger to accomplish that.

To conclude, Legolas is a fighter with Archery Fighting Style, and only the skill proficiencies to complement his athletic and other capabilities.

Legolas is definitely not a ranger.

[Laurefindel]

You know what they call the last pure-blooded Numenoreans in LotR?

...

...

...

Rangers.


hehe. Just a ranger? But that's what the rangers are! (can't recall the exact quote)

[lunaticfringe]

Eh to each their own. Ranger in LotRs strikes me as more sort of demonym for a type of half elf living in the west. Cause that's what they are, Variant Half Elves. Whether the skill with King's Foil is magic or just a tribal skill is up in the air. Being more Effective in the hands of the King is a folktale and who knows if that is actually true because only one person uses it.

Rangers get spells in 5e which is sort of deal breaker for me. You could easily replicate his healing with skill checks and faster healing potion creation rules with an Herbalist's Kit or even a Racial because it is a Ranger Skill and Ranger is a Race.

[Dr.Samurai]

The Hunter Ranger's Volley and Hordebreaker features can easily represent Legolas' archery, and can outpace the fighter's three attacks at the same level.

More skills can represent Legolas' long life better, since he's said to be at least a thousand years old.

There's a spell less variant, so we can forget the spells.

Favored Enemy can easily make sense.

Primeval Awareness can be his insane perception.

I think either class can fit, but I wouldn't say there's no way Legolas can't be a ranger.

[Anonymouswizard]

As several people have pointed out, myself included, Aragorn uses healing magic multiple times in the books. I get that you haven't read the books, but you should still read the thread before commenting.

I can't remember the extent of healing he does in the book, but I assumed it was more like Lay on Hands than magic spells (why I'd give him Paladin levels). Then again, it's not only been years since I read the book I also never finished Return of the King (or got far in it), maybe he does something I've forgotten or not encountered.

[Dr.Samurai]

I can't remember the extent of healing he does in the book, but I assumed it was more like Lay on Hands than magic spells (why I'd give him Paladin levels). Then again, it's not only been years since I read the book I also never finished Return of the King (or got far in it), maybe he does something I've forgotten or not encountered.
I believe he heals Faramir and Eowyn in Return of the King.

[Vaz]

"Hands of the King are the Hands of the Healer"; he uses Athelas, or Kingsfoil (it's just a weed), and uses it with Frodo as well to stem the shard of evil from the Witch King's Dagger of Morgul.

It uses a mundane item (a kingsfoil poultice); it's more akin to using the Healer feat to save a Dying Frodo, rather than a poisoned one, but I can see arguments on both ways.

[EvilAnagram]

Eh to each their own. Ranger in LotRs strikes me as more sort of demonym for a type of half elf living in the west. Cause that's what they are, Variant Half Elves. Whether the skill with King's Foil is magic or just a tribal skill is up in the air. Being more Effective in the hands of the King is a folktale and who knows if that is actually true because only one person uses it.
So, this is wrong. There are parts that skew towards being right, but on the whole it is wrong.

To start, they are not half-elves for several reasons. First, most Numenoreans were not descended from Elros, in part because the line of Elros was less libertarian and had fewer generations than say, Charlemagne. Second, Elros was a human, just as his brother Elrond Half-elven was an elf. There is no melding, nor is there any overlap. When a child is born to human and elf, the child will either a human or an elf. They are not half-elves. Elros' children and his people were all humans. They were long-lived because they were not corrupted by Morgoth and lived in a time when there was more magic in the world. As time moves on, human lifespans shorten. Even Elros did not live as long as the first men the hosts of the Noldor encountered. The Dunedain were a people who escaped the corruption of Sauron and maintained slightly lengthened lifespans, but they were not half-elves.

Further, kings foil is used by Gondoran herbalists. This is well established. It's well known in those circles that it has healing properties, but only Aragorn can use it to remove the curse of the Witch-King from Merry and Eowyn. Using herbs to remove a curse seems beyond the limits of nonmagical healing.

It's also worth remembering that magic in LotR is subtle. It infuses the world, and accessing it is similar to any other skill. Aragorn, who was raised in Elrond's household, had ample opportunity to learn some.

[MeeposFire]

It could be the long time since the last I read he boos fully but I thought I recall that yes it was known that it could heal but in the "modern" time that ability was forgotten and so most did not think to use it ad thought it was a useless herb.

From what I can find people forgot how it was an effective healing herb hence why people did not use it. Anyone could use it to heal though apparently it is said that it works even better in the hands of the king.

[EvilAnagram]

It could be the long time since the last I read he boos fully but I thought I recall that yes it was known that it could heal but in the "modern" time that ability was forgotten and so most did not think to use it ad thought it was a useless herb.

From what I can find people forgot how it was an effective healing herb hence why people did not use it. Anyone could use it to heal though apparently it is said that it works even better in the hands of the king.

In old Arnor it was forgotten, and many saw it as a weed, but knowledge of its uses survived in Gondor, where it was said the hands of the king could work wonders with it.

metaphor intensifies

[Klorox]

/thread tbh

You. LotR is such a low magic setting that it's hard to fit the characters accurately abyway.

[Laurefindel]

You. LotR is such a low magic setting that it's hard to fit the characters accurately abyway.

I agree that it is hard to fit the character accurately, but is it really because LotR is a low magic setting? It's already pretty hard to fit M:tG characters into D&D classes and they're from a high magic setting.

[EvilAnagram]

I agree that it is hard to fit the character accurately, but is it really because LotR is a low magic setting? It's already pretty hard to fit M:tG characters into D&D classes and they're from a high magic setting.

No, it'd mostly because D&D has very defined rules for how magic and classes work, and those rules are not the same rules in LotR. It's not the level of magic, it's that the magic is different. Kingkiller Chronicles is pretty high magic, but the magic is entirely different, so it just won't work.

[Vaz]

Eh to each their own. Ranger in LotRs strikes me as more sort of demonym for a type of half elf living in the west. Cause that's what they are, Variant Half Elves. Whether the skill with King's Foil is magic or just a tribal skill is up in the air. Being more Effective in the hands of the King is a folktale and who knows if that is actually true because only one person uses it.

Rangers get spells in 5e which is sort of deal breaker for me. You could easily replicate his healing with skill checks and faster healing potion creation rules with an Herbalist's Kit or even a Racial because it is a Ranger Skill and Ranger is a Race.

No.

"The hands of the King are the hands of a healer"

[Unoriginal]

Further, kings foil is used by Gondoran herbalists. This is well established. It's well known in those circles that it has healing properties, but only Aragorn can use it to remove the curse of the Witch-King from Merry and Eowyn. Using herbs to remove a curse seems beyond the limits of nonmagical healing.

Actually it's a minor plot point that the Gondorian herbalists *don't* consider king's foil a healing plant. If not used by the king, all it does is helping with handling headaches, as well as smelling enjoyably.

[EvilAnagram]

Actually it's a minor plot point that the Gondorian herbalists *don't* consider king's foil a healing plant. If not used by the king, all it does is helping with handling headaches, as well as smelling enjoyably.

I was referring to the headaches.

[Knaight]

As several people have pointed out, myself included, Aragorn uses healing magic multiple times in the books. I get that you haven't read the books, but you should still read the thread before commenting.
He uses healing magic, yes. He doesn't do anything that's recognizable as a spell though - the magic is fundamentally different in LotR and in D&D, and there's a serious case to be made that mechanics for nonmagical things are a closer fit to LotR than the D&D spell mechanics are.


As for Gandalf, I would still say he's a Cleric. He literally says, "I wield the flame of Anor," the fire of creation that flows from Eru. I suppose you could argue the Favored Soul also wields divine fire, though.
Calling this a cleric seems a bit much - Gandalf is explicitly highly scholarly, what magic he has doesn't appear to be literally granted by the gods despite that quote, and there's a whole bunch of distinctive cleric features that make no sense (Turn Undead) comes to mind. Then there's the matter of how the arcane-divine magic divide is largely a D&D conceit anyways with little basis in extant fantasy.


No, it'd mostly because D&D has very defined rules for how magic and classes work, and those rules are not the same rules in LotR. It's not the level of magic, it's that the magic is different. Kingkiller Chronicles is pretty high magic, but the magic is entirely different, so it just won't work.
D&D is presented as a generic fantasy setting, but that's a load of BS - it's a very setting specific game that just shies away from actually defining the setting much in the core books (although most editions do spend at least some time on the planes, and that's one of the major setting features). It thus tends to do really poorly representing other fantasy settings, where various generic games (e.g. GURPS) can often be fit better.

[Draz74]

To start, they are not half-elves for several reasons. First, most Numenoreans were not descended from Elros, in part because the line of Elros was less libertarian and had fewer generations than say, Charlemagne. Second, Elros was a human, just as his brother Elrond Half-elven was an elf. There is no melding, nor is there any overlap. When a child is born to human and elf, the child will either a human or an elf. They are not half-elves. Elros' children and his people were all humans. They were long-lived because they were not corrupted by Morgoth and lived in a time when there was more magic in the world. As time moves on, human lifespans shorten. Even Elros did not live as long as the first men the hosts of the Noldor encountered. The Dunedain were a people who escaped the corruption of Sauron and maintained slightly lengthened lifespans, but they were not half-elves.

If this were true, then Arwen would not have had the choice to die as a human dies.

Half-elves ARE a thing in LotR. They have the choice whether to go into the afterlife as humans or as elves, in the end. In the meantime, they are a lot more LIKE elves than D&D half-elves are. They live for millennia and so forth. But they are still fundamentally different from full elves.

You're right that Aragorn isn't a half-elf, but that's just because he's more than half human. If you have 0%-49% elven blood, then you're a human. If you have 50%-99% elven blood, you're a half-elf. Only if you have 100% elven blood are you an elf. (Those are the rules from D&D 2e, incidentally. And they match the rules in Middle Earth pretty well. In Middle Earth it's actually a bit more complicated, since many of the elves (including some of the prominent lines that became half-elves) have Maiar blood in them as well.)

It is their choices, not the race they were born as, that separates Elros and Elrond.

Also, although he is "human," Aragorn's elven blood DOES have something to do with his abnormally long lifespan -- it's not JUST that human lifespans have gotten shorter over time as the world has gotten corrupted.

[Laurefindel]

Numenoreans aren't half-elves, but if I had to use D&D races to play in Middle Earth, I'd simply scratch the word 'Half-Elf' in the PHB and replace it with 'High Men' and be done with it.

[KorvinStarmast]

You know what they call the last pure-blooded Numenoreans in LotR? Rangers.
Yep.

That said, the fact is that Gygax and co. looked a Aragorn - a wandering warrior and woodsman who knew healing incantations and possessed incredible martial prowess - and they used him as the template for the Ranger in their little game. He is the mold from which rangers are cast, and so the archetype fits him perfectly.
To be overly pedantic, the original Ranger which got ported pretty well into AD&D 1e was written by Joe Fischer, and published in Strategic Review Number 2 in the summer of 1975 on pages 4 and 5 ... right before the first (of numerous) articles on pole arms by Gary Gygax. In that article you can see how, for Chainmail, Gary built a table for "weapon effectiveness versus armor class" that poses an eerie similarity to the Greyhawk "weapons versus armor class" table.

Numenoreans aren't half-elves, but if I had to use D&D races to play in Middle Earth, I'd simply scratch the word 'Half-Elf' in the PHB and replace it with 'High Men' and be done with it. They guarded the Shire due to its having the best pipe weed. Enlightened self interest, man.
(Say it with a Tommy Chong inflection and it really works).

[GlenSmash!]

Even Elros did not live as long as the first men the hosts of the Noldor encountered.

Can you cite this? I think Elros lived for 500 years, and I don't recall it ever being Mentioned that any of the Edain first encountered by the Nolder lived that long. Not even Beor the old. he was 93

[lunaticfringe]

So, this is wrong. There are parts that skew towards being right, but on the whole it is wrong.

To start, they are not half-elves for several reasons. First, most Numenoreans were not descended from Elros, in part because the line of Elros was less libertarian and had fewer generations than say, Charlemagne. Second, Elros was a human, just as his brother Elrond Half-elven was an elf. There is no melding, nor is there any overlap. When a child is born to human and elf, the child will either a human or an elf. They are not half-elves. Elros' children and his people were all humans. They were long-lived because they were not corrupted by Morgoth and lived in a time when there was more magic in the world. As time moves on, human lifespans shorten. Even Elros did not live as long as the first men the hosts of the Noldor encountered. The Dunedain were a people who escaped the corruption of Sauron and maintained slightly lengthened lifespans, but they were not half-elves.

Further, kings foil is used by Gondoran herbalists. This is well established. It's well known in those circles that it has healing properties, but only Aragorn can use it to remove the curse of the Witch-King from Merry and Eowyn. Using herbs to remove a curse seems beyond the limits of nonmagical healing.

It's also worth remembering that magic in LotR is subtle. It infuses the world, and accessing it is similar to any other skill. Aragorn, who was raised in Elrond's household, had ample opportunity to learn some.

Numenoreans brought kingsfoil with them to the mainland because it was a healing herb. They also formed an Empire and ruled other Men. The Hands of a King are the hands of a Healer is a folk saying originating from people who where ruled by Numenoreans and their descendants. If you want to call it Magic usable by 1 guy in the whole of Middle Earth by all means.

I tend to view as a folktale based in truth. The culturally distinct Numenoreans had knowledge of how to properly use the plant and passed that knowledge to their descendants.

Ranger/Dunedain, if you don't want to call a race is a unique Ethnicity at the very least. They were physiologically disctinct from baseline humans and were culturally different.

[EvilAnagram]

If this were true, then Arwen would not have had the choice to die as a human dies.
Not so, for her ancestor made that same choice, living a second life with Beren as a human, despite being the daughter of an elf lord and a Maiar. This tied thematically to Tolkien's beliefs about the transformative power of love, which breaks down all walls. Luthien loved Beren, and her love was so powerful that it erased the differences between them, and she died with him and moved on while her fathe entered into the cycle of rebirth in the West.


Half-elves ARE a thing in LotR. They have the choice whether to go into the afterlife as humans or as elves, in the end. In the meantime, they are a lot more LIKE elves than D&D half-elves are. They live for millennia and so forth. But they are still fundamentally different from full elves.
Again, this is not so. Elves do not have an afterlife, they do not age, and they do not depart this world forever. They are bound to it. Humans, like Elros, die of old age, and he died long before his brother, who never died at all. Elrond is an elf, and Elros is a human. The Silmarillion explicitly states that after Eärendil and Ewing took their Silmaril to the Valar, Eru gave all the children of couplings between man and elf the choice to be either man or elf. Luthien embraced mortality, but she could only do so because she loved Aragorn as much as Luthien loved Beren.


You're right that Aragorn isn't a half-elf, but that's just because he's more than half human. If you have 0%-49% elven blood, then you're a human. If you have 50%-99% elven blood, you're a half-elf. Only if you have 100% elven blood are you an elf. (Those are the rules from D&D 2e, incidentally. And they match the rules in Middle Earth pretty well. In Middle Earth it's actually a bit more complicated, since many of the elves (including some of the prominent lines that became half-elves) have Maiar blood in them as well.)
None if this is true. Tolkien did not care a whit for percentages or notions of racial purity. Elrond was an elf. He lived to see his brother's great great great great grandchildren die of old age, and he's lived for millenia after that. The ones who were children or elves and maia were elves. They were Children of Eru, and that made them elves and not Maia.


It is their choices, not the race they were born as, that separates Elros and Elrond.
True. One chose to be a humam, and the other chose to be an elf.


Also, although he is "human," Aragorn's elven blood DOES have something to do with his abnormally long lifespan -- it's not JUST that human lifespans have gotten shorter over time as the world has gotten corrupted.
Maybe ro some extent, but Numenoreans without elven blood also lived long lives.

[Unoriginal]

Numenoreans's lifespans shortening isn't due to corruption, it's due to all the powers in Middle Earth weakening with time, which was a big part of Tolkien's setting.

[EvilAnagram]

Numenoreans's lifespans shortening isn't due to corruption, it's due to all the powers in the world weakening with time, which was a big part of Tolkien's setting.

It was due to both. The original Numenoreans lived for a very long time, even compared to Aragorn. However, as they began to cling to life, old age became a burden, and they began to die sooner. The influence of Sauron hastened this process.

[furby076]

Except people confuse Ranger the Class with Ranger the Job/Organization. I don't think Strider would have levels in the ranger class at all. Heck Gandalf ain't really much of a Wizard, seems more like Lock to me.
Why wouldnt strider have classes in ranger? Remember in the 2 towers, when he tracked the orcs by listening to the vibrations in the rock? thats some insane tracking. Then in the 1st movie when the hobbits were hungry, he found them food in like a movie second? How about when he almost dies and his horse brings him back to helms deep. He even knows some advanced herbalism. Thats all stuff you see from ranger

Yea in 5e skills and backgrounds and feats can give people various abilities, but strider def falls into 2x, 3x ranger..

[furby076]

Aragorn uses plants to cast healing magic, has excellent tracking and survival skills, is proficient in martial weapons and medium armor, and nails his Wis save against Sauron when he uses the palantir. Ranger fits him best, by far. It's just a low level campaign.

Gandalf, however, a lower class of angel, so you're right about not being a wizard.
Low magic world, but not low level campaign. Tracking orcs by listening to stone isn't low level. Survivng a fight with nazgul isnt low level. Commanding the undead, isnt low level. Charging first into the army of mordor is certainly not low level.

the party levels range. Frodo and the hobbits are certainly low level, with lucky as feat or racial or both. They advance quickly as rogues in the game.

legolas id say is a fighter/ranger. Refluff his spells to natural abilities.

gandalf, as you said, is more of an angel. Maybe favored soul.

[Klorox]

Why wouldnt strider have classes in ranger? Remember in the 2 towers, when he tracked the orcs by listening to the vibrations in the rock? thats some insane tracking. Then in the 1st movie when the hobbits were hungry, he found them food in like a movie second? How about when he almost dies and his horse brings him back to helms deep. He even knows some advanced herbalism. Thats all stuff you see from ranger

Yea in 5e skills and backgrounds and feats can give people various abilities, but strider def falls into 2x, 3x ranger..
You need some rogue for expertise to track like that!