Rogue/swash adding casting fun

[gmachamer]

This is not a min/max question. I'm playing with a group that has very poorly made characters with the exception of a very overpowered Goliath fighter/cleric. I'm playing a Rogue3/Swash3 (TWF) and am having a lot of fun, but I'm drastically out damaging everyone except for the Goliath. I'm planning on adding some extra utility to my character and having some fun with him. No real limit on Books has been made from the DM as long as it isn't to overpowered.

Any thoughts on taking a level of Wizard specializing in Conj (with Abrupt Jaunt) and then taking some levels of Unseen Seer and Abjurant Champion?

I'll be able to Benign Transposition and abrupt jaunt to get some other players out of harms way, sneak attack with some spells from 30 feet if I need a particular energy type of damage, and have some utility spells if needed... not to mention we don't have a wizard in the party at all. My stats at level 6 are Dex 20 and Int 16. I'm a halfling.. Didn't know the DM when I started.. Didn't know he would allow something like a Goliath without level adjustment.

The party consists of: 2 druids, 1 ranger, 1 Warlock, 1 Rogue/swash, 1 Figher/Cleric.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Taking a level of Wizard and hopping into Unseen Seer sounds like fun to me, yeah. It'll weaken your melee progression a bit, which it sounds like you're looking to do, and it'll add some nice utility (especially given that you guys don't have a primary arcanist). I'd leave Abjurant Champion aside, I think.

[gmachamer]

Neither class really has anything past level 2 that I want, so to avoid that I was going to dip into both.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Neither class really has anything past level 2 that I want, so to avoid that I was going to dip into both.
You're not looking to keep the Sneak Attack progression going?

[gmachamer]

On the fence.. Not a big fan of the divination spell power, but I guess bumping sneak attack and spell progression is tough to beat.

[FocusWolf413]

I'll be able to Benign Transposition and abrupt jaunt to get some other players out of harms way, sneak attack with some spells from 30 feet if I need a particular energy type of damage, and have some utility spells if needed... not to mention we don't have a wizard in the party at all. My stats at level 6 are Dex 20 and Int 16. I'm a halfling.. Didn't know the DM when I started.. Didn't know he would allow something like a Goliath without level adjustment.

The party consists of: 2 druids, 1 ranger, 1 Warlock, 1 Rogue/swash, 1 Figher/Cleric.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

I'm going to recommend something crazy.

Don't do that.

What flavor reasons do you have for picking an abrupt jaunt conjuration focused wizard for a level? How does it fit with your character? Does it? Are you just taking a wizard dip because it's mechanically one of the best dips?

Try a level in Beguiler. Skill points, flavor, and utility spells. Fantastic.

[DEMON]

I actually have some less than optimal suggestions, that might fit well with this game's power level and would fit your build... once you qualify.

Daggerspell Mage and Eilservs Schoold (either/or, as these don't work too well together) both build upon the 2WF and spellcasting combination in a different way and offer something flavorful, while not overly powerful.

[Waker]

How about Temple Raider of Olidammara? You probably have all the needed prerequisites aside from Knowledge (Religion), which you could grab with your next level. If you follow a different God/des, you could ask your DM to convert it. The benefits though are much of the same things a Rogue would normally get (with fewer skill points), plus a small list of divine spells and a good will save. Decent fit for a lower power group.

[Thurbane]

Beguiler 6 then into Swiftblade? (Or beguiler 4 with Versatile Spellcaster cheese).

[Gruftzwerg]

How about a Warlock for some nice 24h buffs?

Spiderclimb is great on anyone sneaky. Another great combo on a sneaky char would be darkness + devils sight (requires 2 lvl dip of warlock).

Or go till warlock 6 for either Fell Flight or Flee the Scene. Either one will increase your mobility immense. In and out of combat.

[gmachamer]

Thanks for the great suggestions.

Warlock - Already one in the party.

Temple Raider of Olidammara - Wisdom is too low.

Beguiler - Has possibilities. I don't like the idea of slowing my spell progression by a level. Armored mage is nice, but with my dex where it is, I think I'm going to have to have to loose the armor as soon as I can afford +4 dex item anyway. I do agree that the flavor is good and the skills would be good.. but I just don't think it's worth it... though the spontaneous casting is a big draw.

Daggerspell Mage - Good flavor, but not what I'm looking for.

So I think I'm going to hit wizard spec(conj) for a level and then 2 levels of Abjurant Champion and two levels of Unseen seer.. not sure on the order yet or what to do after those 5 levels.. but I'll see how those go first.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

[Thurbane]

Well, if you allow Versatile Spellcaster to let a 4th level beguiler cast 3rd level spells, then you're actually a level ahead of prepared casters.

Although that exact usage might violate the reqs of Swiftblade.

My primary reason for suggesting Beguiler was the skill points.

If you're set on Conjuror, you can still slot into Swiftblade.

[gmachamer]

Well, things got a bit strange. I took the one level of wizard for a short adventure and the DM told us that we were way under leveled for what was coming next. Told us all to bump our characters to level 10. I told him my plan for my character and he told me I could retrain up to two levels if I wanted to.

I'm a bit on the fence as to what to do. I'm thinking I will just retrain ONE of my rogue levels over to a caster. The third rogue level didn't really add much to my character (because of Swashbucker/Daring outlaw it was really an even level) so dropping it does not affect my sneak attack.

The question then becomes, do I retrain one of my swashbuckler levels or not? I would lose 1d6 of sneak attack and insightful strike (+3 int bonus to damage) I would also then probably want to go ahead and drop Daring outlaw, so I would really be losing 2d6 sneak attack but gaining an extra spell level and would be able to take a metamagic feat.

That basically means the entire Swashbuckler dip was a big waste.. so I'm thinking it likely fits my concept better to just retrain the one rogue level. I'll forgo the Improved two weapon fighting at 9 to gain a feat that improves my casting instead of combat. That leaves me at 10th level casting 3rd level spells and having 5d6 sneak attack (+10 for Craven and +3 for insightful strike)

I think I managed to convince my self to just retrain one.. anyone able to talk me into 2?

[Thurbane]

If you want to still be a skillmonkey/gish type, I'd only drop the one level.

Maybe Rogue 2/Swash 3/Conjuror (or Wizard) 2/Ruathar 3 then on into Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) or another full BAB/casting progression PrC?

Insightful Strike would be nice on this build, so I'd keep Swash 3.

Either that, or drop Swash 3 until your next level, so you can start with 1 level of Swiftblade already, and gloss over the whole "must use all 3rd level slots for Haste" req and assume it happened off screen.

BAB +17 by then end, CL 11, and lots of skill points.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you can convince the DM to let you use the PF Rogue, it's got an archetype that trades some features for casting

[gmachamer]

I don't really see any reason to choose Ruathar, and the pathfinder suggestion isn't going to work.

Thanks though.

[Thurbane]

I don't really see any reason to choose Ruathar, and the pathfinder suggestion isn't going to work.

Thanks though.

Ruathar = full casting progression but better skill points, saves and BAB, plus a couple of minor benefits.

[gmachamer]

Ruathar = full casting progression but better skill points, saves and BAB, plus a couple of minor benefits.

Sorry, I'm not saying its a bad idea, or even necessarily worse than unseen seer, just not enough of a gain to make it worth trying to fit it into my character.

Full casting progression - Same for unseen seer.
Skill points - unseen seer gets more, over 3 levels breaks even with Elfwise.
BAB - Same as unseen seer.
Saves - Better Reflex save than unseen seer, but with 20 dex, my reflex saves are not hurting.
Does have better HP than then the unseen seer, but only 3 hp over 3 levels.

So, Star Blessing: +1 under the night sky, low light vision, and 3 hit points is traded for 1d6 sneak attack.

Again, I call that as close enough of a wash to make it not worth the hassle.

Thanks

[Thurbane]

Fair call - I had missed that you were going Unseen Seer. :smallsmile:

[ottdmk]

Given that you seem to be just wanting to add some casting to a build you already like, I agree with your choices. Rogue 2/Swash 3/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 4 should be a lot of fun.

I'm currently playing a human Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 4 with Able Learner, and he's a blast. I was more focused on having my spellcasting near full Wizard though.

You can always grab Hunter's Eye through your 2nd Level Advanced Learning feature for some more Sneak Attack fun. You can even grab Golem Strike for those annoying constructs. :smallbiggrin:

[gmachamer]

You can always grab Hunter's Eye through your 2nd Level Advanced Learning feature for some more Sneak Attack fun. You can even grab Golem Strike for those annoying constructs. :smallbiggrin:

yes, Hunter's eye is what I grabbed.