Demilich in a dead zone

[Matrota]

So I DM a 3.5e campaign with a handful of players, and, as this is D&D after all, it's not going nearly as I'd envisioned it would. If you are a player in my campaign "The Six," I ask that you refrain from reading any further.

After the party of mid-to-high optimized 7th level players stepped on a few too many toes, they gained the interest of a demilich who has a history with some of the NPCs they've been working with. As the demilich is proud and has no fear of these low level pests, he is curious as to what they have against him (They've destroyed his phylactery and many of his magical items located nearby).

The demilich took one of their family members captive and demanded they meet for a discussion within three days. If they failed to show up, he'd raze the town they'd been taking refuge in to the ground and make it his new seat of power. Same deal if they try anything funny during the meeting. However, the demilich made a mistake in that he allowed the party to choose the location of meeting.

They chose the middle of a large dead zone.

The party is planning to ambush the demilich and kill him while he's powerless. With a few of the PCs builds and the NPCs they're bringing along, they can do it as well. He's a large plot point and is supposed to give the party some information before they kill him that'll lead to them finding out more about the next boss figure, but he won't be able to do that if they immediately kill him.

The demilich is no fool, and wouldn't go into a dead zone unarmed and powerless. How would you suggest the demilich prepares? So far he's only shown himself in astral projections, but in a dead zone he will have to show up in person.

[flappeercraft]

Debatably IHS could remove the effect depending on how you allow it to work. The demilich could use DCFS to change out his feats and just IHS the dead magic zone taking it out completely and permanently after which he changes his feats back. If he doesn't want to do that himself he can just get one of his lackeys to do that for him

[OrlockDelesian]

It can blast them from outside the dead magic zone with instantaneus conjurations (like the orb spells). Or it won't go.

A demilich is not stupid. It might send a servant, or a huge projection in the sky or something. Or a simulacrum. Simulacra can enter a dead magic zone.

[Deophaun]

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:


A wish or miracle spell permanently repairs all dead magic zones in a 30 foot-radius area (or a 30-foot-radius portion of a larger dead magic zone).

Should be trivial for a demilich.

[Matrota]

Debatably IHS could remove the effect depending on how you allow it to work. The demilich could use DCFS to change out his feats and just IHS the dead magic zone taking it out completely and permanently after which he changes his feats back. If he doesn't want to do that himself he can just get one of his lackeys to do that for him

Unfortunately the demilich has no levels in warblade, and IHS only affects you so a lackey shouldn't be able to use it for the demilich (I rule that the effect only stops affecting you to prevent some of the ridiculous 'remove the sun' tactics). What is DCFS if I might ask?

[Matrota]

Should be trivial for a demilich.

I'd never read that. Well then, that certainly helps :^)

[Bad Wolf]

Wouldn't choosing the meeting to be in the middle of a dead magic zone be counted as "trying something funny"? I don't see a demilich responding positively to that.

Party: Hey, let's meet at X.

Demilich: Alright, later gators.

*Demilich enters the zone*

Demilich: wait, this a dead magic zone. Who do they think they are?

*Incinerates family member, along with every living soul in the vicinity.*

[flappeercraft]

Unfortunately the demilich has no levels in warblade, and IHS only affects you so a lackey shouldn't be able to use it for the demilich (I rule that the effect only stops affecting you to prevent some of the ridiculous 'remove the sun' tactics). What is DCFS if I might ask?

DCFS is the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle trick, it involves casting Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos which allows you to permanently switch a single feat for another permanently but it does cost 1k xp. Also you don't need levels in warblade, get the Martial Study feat which allows you to get maneuvers and get a maneuver for the prerequisite and then IHS so that the demilich can use it. Then if you want switch back.

[Matrota]

Wouldn't choosing the meeting to be in the middle of a dead magic zone be counted as "trying something funny"? I don't see a demilich responding positively to that.

Party: Hey, let's meet at X.

Demilich: Alright, later gators.

*Demilich enters the zone*

Demilich: wait, this a dead magic zone. Who do they think they are?

*Incinerates family member, along with every living soul in the vicinity.*

Granted, the two strongest allies the party has are spellcasters, and many of the party are spellcasters as well. I just viewed it as "They don't trust me so they want the security of a dead zone. Hm. They'll see how much that grants them."

[Deophaun]

The most straight forward way is for the demilich to kill a few dragons, raise them as zombies/skeletons, and instruct them to follow him and kill every living thing they see if he gets attacked. He doesn't need to worry about control after that: mindless undead follow the last instruction given, and in a dead magic zone there's no way to wrest control.

Alternatively, DCFS can be used to let him cast Shadow Weave magic, which does work in dead magic zones.

[Vizzerdrix]

The demi lich could bring along a few lantan artificer minions.

[Necroticplague]

I'm a bit baffled by his behaivor. He seems to be the one holding all the cards, why would he have offered them any concessions on location? Concessions are for when both parties hold cards.

Anyway, there's the before-mentioned 'use a Wish to un-dead magic an area around him'.

If he's a demilich, that means he's an epic caster, right?

Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.
So he can just pump his CL up to 40, he can cast his strongest spells with impunity.

Alternatively, he can always bring help. Called creatures don't poof in DMZs, and neither do created corporeal undead. Given his status as a demilich, it's quiete a reasonable accommodation for him to bring a servant into a Dead Magic zone (given how, well, he doesn't have a hand, and his normal TK replacement is unavailable). The fact the Dread Warrior manservant is a fearsome fighter in his own right is just gravy. or the Devil barrista he's contracted to hammer out the details of whatever agreement they're meeting over.

Also, are you sure he's defenceless? While it may be near-powerless, Demilichs are pretty tough nuts to crack. In an DMZ, 15 DR/epic is a considerable amount, considering the DMZ would also shut off all the party's buffs. An THFPA'er could get through it, but the Demilich can fly to render that unlikely to work. And without items to provide +hit, the insight bonus to AC+ being Diminuitive is quiet effective as letting attacks wiz by.

[Gildedragon]

There's a spell that let's one cast in dead magic or no magic areas. Manifest magic iirc

[Matrota]

There's a spell that let's one cast in dead magic or no magic areas. Manifest magic iirc

Invoke magic, but it only lets you cast up to a 4th level spell.

[Zancloufer]

Ignoring all the possible spell casting before/after the dead magic zone consider this. The Demi Litch has a base AC of 40 before stats and assuming it is only level 21. It also has 21d12+ HP and 180ft perfect flight. It also has a hilarious 32 Hide/Move silently before stats/skills. It also has a natural attack that does 10d6+20 with something like +20+BaB+Dex to hit vs touch AC. The thing could literally float into a party member and OHKO them. Even with all it's spells, SLAs and Su abilties sealed it could probably eat 4 level 7 PCs for breakfast.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, preparation. Greater Planar Binding can get some fiends like Pit Fiends to keep watch and act as bodyguards. Demi Lich can just naturally force them to obey; it doesn't need to offer them anything as it literally eats them for breakfast. Gate + Mindrape [Book of Vile Darkness] produces permanent minions. Ask a short duration service to lower resistances and accept any spells you cast (easily accomplishable within CL Rounds so the short duration service clause in Gate covers this easily) and just Mindrape the target to be your loyalest servant and let them come back out of their own free will. You can easily get 40HD+ minions this way. Like Phanes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) or Infernals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) or whatever (well, they're obviously immune to Mindrape but they can be Gated and you can voluntarily lower immunities and Gate compels short duration service, so...). Mindrape in general can produce loyal servants out of literally anything a Demilich can overpower (so basically anything)

It can also keep Zombie/Skeletal Dragons around as muscle: see here for decent options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon) (though Breath Weapon is obviously suppressed in Dead Magic Zones, but they're solid brutes as well). Of course, Simulacrums can be made of almost anything and they can be strong enough to easily wipe the floor with the party. Ice Assassin [Frostburn] is the more extreme option.


In other words, a Demilich can have any minions it might want and they can be more than a hundred times stronger than the PCs if it so desires. In addition to it being able to negate Dead Magic Zones...and epic magic exists too. And it can physically wipe the floor with the party if it so desires.

[VonDragon]

a couple of things to note here are that the demilich's flight is SU so wont function and with no other modes of transport within a dead zone he could refuse under the grounds of not being able to reach the middle of the area. There is also the fact that demilich's have astral projection at will as a spell like so there is no reason he should be meeting them in his regular body especially as his phalactery has been destroyed already.

[Kaleph]

Are you telling me that a Demilich doesn't bring along an adamantine golem? 😁

Please also note, as it was previously mentioned, that the shadow weave is not erased in a dead-magic-zone. This is a difference between AMF and DMZ. Since shadow magic fits thematically good with necromancy, you should consider re-building ('case it already has a build) it into a shadowcaster.

I mean, a party of 7th level PC hoping they can be so smart to cheat and attack a demilich should allow you to be gygaxian to a certain degree...

[Crake]

Couldn't he just cast planar bubble just before entering the dead magic zone, changing the "dead magic" local planar trait of the dead magic zone to the "normal magic" trait of the typical material plane? Iirc, dead magic zones aren't ACTUALLY antimagic fiends, they just function quite similarly, but a dead magic zone is actually an area of "dead magic" planar trait correct? A planar bubble should be able to solve this issue, conveniently allowing the demilich to shoot orb spells at the party from inside his bubble if things should go south.

Remember that a demilich's flight is supernatural, so technically he's not able to move around of his own volition in a dead magic zone either way, so he's well within his rights to just say "no, pick a different place"

[Necroticplague]

al, so technically he's not able to move around of his own volition in a dead magic zone either way, so he's well within his rights to just say "no, pick a different place"


a couple of things to note here are that the demilich's flight is SU so wont function and with no other modes of transport within a dead zone he could refuse under the grounds of not being able to reach the middle of the area. There is also the fact that demilich's have astral projection at will as a spell like so there is no reason he should be meeting them in his regular body especially as his phalactery has been destroyed already.

Huh? Where's it say that? Looking at the Demilich entry, the template doesn't say it gains 180 foot flight (perfect) that's Supernatural. It says it gains 180 foot flight (perfect) and maintains any SU flight it had as a lich. It's normal flight speed is a natural ability, like most other flight.

[The_Jette]

a couple of things to note here are that the demilich's flight is SU so wont function and with no other modes of transport within a dead zone he could refuse under the grounds of not being able to reach the middle of the area. There is also the fact that demilich's have astral projection at will as a spell like so there is no reason he should be meeting them in his regular body especially as his phalactery has been destroyed already.

Demiliches also have Soul Gems, in addition to the phylactery. If the Soul Gems haven't been destroyed, too, then the Demilich is just as capable of reforming after 1d10 days as it was before the phylactery was destroyed. Also, I don't believe that having a soul is a requirement for forming a Phylactery (RAW), so what's stopping the Demilich from just creating a new one?

[ViperMagnum357]

And remember the Demilich starts with 8 soul gems-in addition to squirreling away a few as a last resort, a Demilich expecting to get into trouble can bring one onto the plane in question ahead of time, under heavy guard, to ensure they can reform immediately if things go sideways. As for within a dead zone, Shadow Weave Magic or Initiate of Mystra allow the Demilich to use magic with a trivial check, and can cast Epic spells through it anyway. The PCs' equipment will be nonfunctional-and something that powerful will have access to Wish, Miracle, or both, at least via ring, and can scrub the area then nuke them in one round.

End of the day, something that survives long enough to become a Demilich is not going to be taken down by what amounts to a bunch of scrubs that got lucky-it will have triumphed over far more dangerous foes, and the thought that your group can be more than a speed bump is laughable-and should be made known in story to them. Now, they did smash a very expensive phylactery, but if they think they have the Demilich by the short hairs they have another thing coming.

As for what the Demilich does-it does not show up to a meeting with a bound and gagged family member in tow-it shows up with the trapped souls of every family member, friend, ally, and significant acquaintance of the group, and lays out the deal; provide the Demilich with the full value of what they destroyed plus 10% and they get the souls back-True Resurrection available with Material Component costs extra, or the Demilich destroys the souls and does the same to the PCs immediately.

make it clear to the group this is a no-win scenario, and that they screwed up badly by their actions. If they want to go down in a blaze of glory, oblige them-honestly, I have to wonder what they were thinking when they took on an Epic Spellcaster about twenty levels early.

[Matrota]

I have to wonder what they were thinking when they took on an Epic Spellcaster about twenty levels early.

They were aiding some NPCs who have a history with the demilich, and the NPCs were under the impression he was just a normal lich as he uses magic and necromancy to give himself a body outside of just the skull.

After the party stumbled upon his phylactery, the gestalted greater vampire destroyed it, and convinced the party they're running out of time before they have to kill this demilich (this hasn't been implied by me, but the player is convinced the demilich is trying to take over the world or something, and that they can stop it.)

[The_Jette]

They were aiding some NPCs who have a history with the demilich, and the NPCs were under the impression he was just a normal lich as he uses magic and necromancy to give himself a body outside of just the skull.

After the party stumbled upon his phylactery, the gestalted greater vampire destroyed it, and convinced the party they're running out of time before they have to kill this demilich (this hasn't been implied by me, but the player is convinced the demilich is trying to take over the world or something, and that they can stop it.)

One of the players is a greater vampire gestalt character? Somehow they sound stronger than your average level 7 characters, now. Not enough to defeat a demilich, but still...

[Crake]

Huh? Where's it say that? Looking at the Demilich entry, the template doesn't say it gains 180 foot flight (perfect) that's Supernatural. It says it gains 180 foot flight (perfect) and maintains any SU flight it had as a lich. It's normal flight speed is a natural ability, like most other flight.

You'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that a skull floating about isn't doing so magically. You'll note that generally winged flight is by default Ex, while non-winged flight tends to be, by default Su. Take a beholder as an example, their flight is non winged, yet explicitly called out as Ex. I'm not actually aware of any winged flight that is magical, though the draconomicon suggests that dragons flight is at least partially magical (though provides no mechanical backing for this).

[Zancloufer]

You'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that a skull floating about isn't doing so magically. You'll note that generally winged flight is by default Ex, while non-winged flight tends to be, by default Su. Take a beholder as an example, their flight is non winged, yet explicitly called out as Ex. I'm not actually aware of any winged flight that is magical, though the draconomicon suggests that dragons flight is at least partially magical (though provides no mechanical backing for this).

There are about 5 racial abilities + the SLAs that are called out as magical, but it's flight it not:


Speed

Change to fly 180 ft. (perfect). The lich’s supernatural fly speed, if any, is also retained.

It explicitly does not mention it's flight being Su and calls out that a lich may have Su flight that the Demilich retains if it so desires. I mean it is a little odd but to be fair it is also the Demilichs only means of movement. Would be a little silly that an epic spellcasting creature is rendered almost completely harmless by a level 6 spell.

[Necroticplague]

You'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that a skull floating about isn't doing so magically.

You'd be very hard pressed to convince anyone that any undead moving at all isn't doing so magically, yet undead stubbornly fail to de-animate when introduced into DMZs. Unless it's explicitly called out as Supernatural, is isn't.

[Matrota]

One of the players is a greater vampire gestalt character? Somehow they sound stronger than your average level 7 characters, now. Not enough to defeat a demilich, but still...

The player is our group's main DM (He knows a lot more about D&D than me and has been playing for about a decade), and kind of took advantage of my ignorance at the start, through justifying taking templates due to backstory before I had a good understanding of what they were and didn't realize I was approving free LA. I've geared loot more towards other members of the party ever since and I've been trying to let them shine over this character whose endgame build can probably solo a few of the bosses I've made along the way. It's kinda hard to do when the other players really have no idea what direction they're taking their builds in though :smallannoyed:

[Crake]

You'd be very hard pressed to convince anyone that any undead moving at all isn't doing so magically, yet undead stubbornly fail to de-animate when introduced into DMZs. Unless it's explicitly called out as Supernatural, is isn't.

If it's Ex unless explicitly stated, then why is a beholder's flight explicitly called out as Ex?

[Deophaun]

I seem to remember there being a--not a list, but a descriptive portion of text--that laid out guidelines for what flight was what ability. But, without that, the general rule is that if it's not listed, it's a natural ability (neither (Ex) or (Su)), and the RC has a sidebar acknowledging that these classifications often don't make sense, but that's what they are.

The one thing that is absolutely shut down in a dead zone is the Lich's DR/epic. DR/epic is (Su) by default, and nothing in the Lich's description makes it (Ex).

[ATHATH]

The player is our group's main DM (He knows a lot more about D&D than me and has been playing for about a decade), and kind of took advantage of my ignorance at the start, through justifying taking templates due to backstory before I had a good understanding of what they were and didn't realize I was approving free LA. I've geared loot more towards other members of the party ever since and I've been trying to let them shine over this character whose endgame build can probably solo a few of the bosses I've made along the way. It's kinda hard to do when the other players really have no idea what direction they're taking their builds in though :smallannoyed:
Then have the Vampire be the first PC that the lich makes an "example" of (as a "warning shot", so to speak) if the party ticks it off/tries anything stupid. Don't do this if the party doesn't annoy the lich, of course- that'd be a !@#$ move/bad DMing.

[Kaleph]

I seem to remember there being a--not a list, but a descriptive portion of text--that laid out guidelines for what flight was what ability. But, without that, the general rule is that if it's not listed, it's a natural ability (neither (Ex) or (Su)), and the RC has a sidebar acknowledging that these classifications often don't make sense, but that's what they are.

The one thing that is absolutely shut down in a dead zone is the Lich's DR/epic. DR/epic is (Su) by default, and nothing in the Lich's description makes it (Ex).

I think you mean the articles on the wizards of the coast website describing how polymorph works:
"You have the physical qualities of the assumed form.

Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).

Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk.

Your maximum speed in any assumed form, however, is 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement; faster speeds are considered extraordinary qualities, even when they are not so listed in the creature's description. In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form)"

Flying with wings is a natural ability, unless the speed is more than 120ft, then it's ex. In another section the air subtype is mentioned, whose fly is always natural. No mention is made of other fly modes.

[Necroticplague]

If it's Ex unless explicitly stated, then why is a beholder's flight explicitly called out as Ex?
Nice strawman, I never said a Demilich's flight was EX unless stated otherwise. Not SU=/=EX. Unless something is explicitely stated otherwise, it's a Natural ability.

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

[Baldin]

Do you know how this party wants to defeat the Demilich? I mean if the Demilich is in a dead zone this means the players will be aswell. I don't see how level 7 characters could ever hope to defeat him without spells, specialy since you mentioned most pc's and npc's that would fight are casters themselves. And even if they do find a way to cast spells on him a Demilich has the following ability:
Magic Immunity (Ex)
Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

So, RAW, he is even immune to spellresistance: No effects. And this is not a SU ability so it would still work in a antimagic zone. You could even argue the Demilich is simply immune to the zone.

[Kaleph]

So, RAW, he is even immune to spellresistance: No effects. And this is not a SU ability so it would still work in a antimagic zone. You could even argue the Demilich is simply immune to the zone.

I disagree. No one can be immune to spellresistance, since it is not used as an attack. Also, the zone isn't an effect at all, simply magic does not exist in the zone.

On the other hand I agree that a 7th level party has no chance vs a demilich, even with the help of powerful NPC'.

First of all, he knows everything that is to know, including that the appointment is in a AMZ. This should have the only effect to make him suspicious, and use special precautions.

As I suggested above, bringing along an epic golem is an option (someone else suggested undeads). In addition, considering that the demilich flight ability works even in an AMZ is highly realistic, so he can fly away reasonably fast, in case of an unexpected danger.

As a master, I'd consider attacking a demilich as a clearly hazardous, dangerous and probably hopeless decision, so I'd not limit his rage in case he's threatened. I would foresee the death of a PC as a consequence, plus the party should be somehow forced to provide the DL a valuable favor in exchange for mercy. All tacticts proposed in the above posts (including using wish to restore magic in the area withou the PC's noticing it) are legitimate in my eyes.

That's the point of the storyarc where the PC must learn that they have to adopt a certain amount of care and prudence.

[Baldin]

Also, I assume your players have no clue how strong a Demilich actually is. My party and I would not even think about fighting a Demilich before level 15, if then.

[Bebbit]

Ignoring all the possible spell casting before/after the dead magic zone consider this. The Demi Litch has a base AC of 40 before stats and assuming it is only level 21. It also has 21d12+ HP and 180ft perfect flight. It also has a hilarious 32 Hide/Move silently before stats/skills. It also has a natural attack that does 10d6+20 with something like +20+BaB+Dex to hit vs touch AC. The thing could literally float into a party member and OHKO them. Even with all it's spells, SLAs and Su abilties sealed it could probably eat 4 level 7 PCs for breakfast.

I think this was lost amidst the flight discussion. Level 7 PCs simply won't even be able to touch him even without his magic, and he can reasonably 1-2 hit the toughest of them.

Assuming +5 Con bonus, D12 HD, and max health/level, a level 7 could have 119 hp, before calculating any buffs/items (which wouldn't work). The Demilich is doing an average of 40-60 damage per hit with just its hand.
Now, since apparently the majority of the party is spell casters, they obviously wouldn't have nearly that amount of health, so they'd just die in a single hit most likely.

Now to hit it with a weapon.
+5 Str bonus, +1 MW weapon (no magic), +7 BAB. That's a +13 to hit against his 41 base AC. Nothing is going to touch him, and he can just swat people to death at his leisure.

Absolutely no magic needed, and he could wreck the party as an afterthought.

[Matrota]

Also, I assume your players have no clue how strong a Demilich actually is. My party and I would not The think about fighting a Demilich before level 15, if then.

Ironically the one spearheading the assault is a player with 10+ years of experience that thinks their optimized character is unkillable or something.

[Bebbit]

Ironically the one spearheading the assault is a player with 10+ years of experience that thinks their optimized character is unkillable or something.

Maybe he thinks his experience is a shield and that the DM wouldn't kill him no matter how powerful a creature they face.

[Kaleph]

Ironically the one spearheading the assault is a player with 10+ years of experience that thinks their optimized character is unkillable or something.

Of course, he cheated you into getting major templates for free!?

[Matrota]

Do you know how this party wants to defeat the Demilich? I mean if the Demilich is in a dead zone this means the players will be aswell. I don't see how level 7 characters could ever hope to defeat him without spells, specialy since you mentioned most pc's and npc's that would fight are casters themselves.

They have a small group of northern barbarians with them ranging from level 8-9, their leader being level 14. They also have 2 barely epic NPCs (bard and a spellsword) and an archmage who's 26th level, but then again, he's a mage.

The party is a gestalted greater vampire cleric, a halfling rogue/cleric who has somehow managed to obtain divine rank 0, a ranger elf who is a homebrew undead similar to a metropolitan but better, an orc fighter with a dire wolf mount, a thri-kreen bone creature fighter, a kobold bard, and a human runecaster. The kobold and thri-kreen players have since left the group and are being run as NPCs for now.

[The_Jette]

They have a small group of northern barbarians with them ranging from level 8-9, their leader being level 14. They also have 2 barely epic NPCs (bard and a spellsword) and an archmage who's 26th level, but then again, he's a mage.

The party is a gestalted greater vampire cleric, a halfling rogue/cleric who has somehow managed to obtain divine rank 0, a ranger elf who is a homebrew undead similar to a metropolitan but better, an orc fighter with a dire wolf mount, a thri-kreen bone creature fighter, a kobold bard, and a human runecaster. The kobold and thri-kreen players have since left the group and are being run as NPCs for now.

The Demi-Lich is going to a meeting with a 26th level Archmage and isn't going to just nuke the place from a distance? The fight between the Demilich and the Archmage alone could lay waste to entire stretches of land, and destroy the kingdom that they're fighting in. Why in the world did you think this would be a good idea?

[Matrota]

Thanks for all the advice y'all, this probably is a good point to show the party there not invulnerable and if it comes to it I can get rid of the vampire and a few NPCs or so as an example. Only if provoked, obviously. Interestingly I can make it a story point and have the vampire disappear instead of die, as the possible endgame boss has taken a keen interest in her as she has a past similar to his own, so he could intervene and whisk her away instead of just killing my friend's character.

[Matrota]

The Demi-Lich is going to a meeting with a 26th level Archmage and isn't going to just nuke the place from a distance? The fight between the Demilich and the Archmage alone could lay waste to entire stretches of land, and destroy the kingdom that they're fighting in. Why in the world did you think this would be a good idea?

I made the campaign and the characters a while ago when I was fairly inexperienced and just trying to get a handle on the game and try out DMing. Plus I don't optimize my NPCs with Elminster monstrosity builds that can solo the tarrasque at 15th level like some people. I'm not going to change the characters at this point but they're not getting much stronger either.

[Bebbit]

Thanks for all the advice y'all, this probably is a good point to show the party there not invulnerable and if it comes to it I can get rid of the vampire and a few NPCs or so as an example. Only if provoked, obviously. Interestingly I can make it a story point and have the vampire disappear instead of die, as the possible endgame boss has taken a keen interest in her as she has a past similar to his own, so he could intervene and whisk her away instead of just killing my friend's character.

Just set the terms of the meeting to be the party members only, with no NPCs. That could be a very reasonable requirement from the Demilich, especially if he knows there is a 26th level Archmage with them.
Similarly, I don't see a reason why a high level Archmage would even want to go face to face with a Demilich. There is no gain for either of them in that scenario. Archmage would realistically send lower level mooks (the party members) to see what happens, rather than risk himself.

If the PCs don't agree, then they don't have to meet. I have a feeling they won't feel as invincible when they don't have the equivalent of a country full of nukes at their back.

[Deophaun]

Plus I don't optimize my NPCs with Elminster monstrosity builds that can solo the tarrasque at 15th level like some people.
Elminister is actually horribly optimized (which makes doing his laundry all the more annoying as he's only significant because of his mahou megami waifu), and pretty much anyone with flight can solo the Tarrasque.

[ViperMagnum357]

^^This. No mage wants to face a Demilich-an epic spellcaster that is almost invulnerable to magic. The NPCs are going to send a representative, and the Demilich might do the same or show up in person anyway-unlike a mage with a clone or contiguous resurrection, there is pretty much nothing you can do to prevent the Demilich from reforming as long as at least one soul gem survives, and can use any equipment near one of them. The Demilich will have little or no compunction against fighting to the death, and doing the same each time it reforms until it succeeds.

Which brings up another point-have you fully statted the Demilich yet? because it is a template, and while the the example is a 21st level caster, it is very possible-neigh, likely, the Demilich is quite a bit more powerful than that, on account of being old enough to survive that long.

[Matrota]

Which brings up another point-have you fully statted the Demilich yet? because it is a template, and while the the example is a 21st level caster, it is very possible-neigh, likely, the Demilich is quite a bit more powerful than that, on account of being old enough to survive that long.

I have statted him out using the example as a heavy reference point. He's cursed by the possible endgame boss though, making him weaker than he could be, so his power level is pretty equivalent to the example given.

[Zancloufer]

I think this was lost amidst the flight discussion. Level 7 PCs simply won't even be able to touch him even without his magic, and he can reasonably 1-2 hit the toughest of them.

Assuming +5 Con bonus, D12 HD, and max health/level, a level 7 could have 119 hp, before calculating any buffs/items (which wouldn't work). The Demilich is doing an average of 40-60 damage per hit with just its hand.
Now, since apparently the majority of the party is spell casters, they obviously wouldn't have nearly that amount of health, so they'd just die in a single hit most likely.

Now to hit it with a weapon.
+5 Str bonus, +1 MW weapon (no magic), +7 BAB. That's a +13 to hit against his 41 base AC. Nothing is going to touch him, and he can just swat people to death at his leisure.

Absolutely no magic needed, and he could wreck the party as an afterthought.

Nice to see someone finally noticed that. Also worth noting that since this Demilich has probably 11+BaB if he is indeed advanced beyond his basic stat block he can potentially kill 3 PCs a round. By slapping them with it's body. He could literally charge into the toughest PC, ORKO them and then next round what the party jumps him for jack damage and he retaliates again OHKOing all three surviving PCs as they probably don't have more than 60HP.

[Kaleph]

The party is a gestalted greater vampire cleric, a halfling rogue/cleric who has somehow managed to obtain divine rank 0, a ranger elf who is a homebrew undead similar to a metropolitan but better, an orc fighter with a dire wolf mount, a thri-kreen bone creature fighter, a kobold bard, and a human runecaster. The kobold and thri-kreen players have since left the group and are being run as NPCs for now.

WHAT!? U're telling me that your player not only cheated you into getting some 8+ LA template for free, but is also gestalted while the others are not!?

Matrota, if this is not the right chance for some solid Blood-Death-and-Vengeance, than it's never.

Sorry for the rant, but from what you're telling, this is such a respectless munchkinesque act, that I'd never expect from a friend, even less if he's an experienced player. I also see some unequal power distribution amongst the party members, with some excess of generosity - say, a 7th level character with divine ranks. I know that every table is different, that the-important-is-having-fun-together, a master should not try to control everything etc., but what are the consequences? The PC's driving the campaign in a completely and obviously deviating direction, thinking they can give "orders" to a 26th level archmage, trying to kill some plot-relevant NPC with an exceedingly high CR, and the likes. I know I've maybe got it completely wrong here (I actually hope so), but it looks the player are trying to transform the campaign into their personal superfunhouse, instead of enjoing a game.

[Crake]

Nice strawman, I never said a Demilich's flight was EX unless stated otherwise. Not SU=/=EX. Unless something is explicitely stated otherwise, it's a Natural ability.

The monster manual begs to differ:


Flight (Ex or Su): A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.

[Deophaun]

The monster manual begs to differ:
That's not saying flight is Su or Ex, that's for Flight that is Su or Ex.

Which would seem to imply that a creature with Flight that isn't Su or Ex cannot cease or resume it, so the demilich is always flying until it's not, then it never is.

[Necroticplague]

The monster manual begs to differ:

I fail to see how that special ability is in any way relevant. it's possible to have a flight speed without that ability, and the demilich is not listed as having that ability.

[Matrota]

WHAT!? U're telling me that your player not only cheated you into getting some 8+ LA template for free, but is also gestalted while the others are not!?

Matrota, if this is not the right chance for some solid Blood-Death-and-Vengeance, than it's never.

Sorry for the rant, but from what you're telling, this is such a respectless munchkinesque act, that I'd never expect from a friend, even less if he's an experienced player. I also see some unequal power distribution amongst the party members, with some excess of generosity - say, a 7th level character with divine ranks. I know that every table is different, that the-important-is-having-fun-together, a master should not try to control everything etc., but what are the consequences? The PC's driving the campaign in a completely and obviously deviating direction, thinking they can give "orders" to a 26th level archmage, trying to kill some plot-relevant NPC with an exceedingly high CR, and the likes. I know I've maybe got it completely wrong here (I actually hope so), but it looks the player are trying to transform the campaign into their personal superfunhouse, instead of enjoing a game.

He came into the campaign about 2 sessions in and convinced me to allow gestalting. I've told the other players they can gestalt but we keep forgetting. He's going through all the vampire levels so he didn't get it completely for free, but his evolved undead / greater vampire templates he convinced me to give him for free. I do agree though, there are some serious imbalances in the party as it stands, and that needs to be evened out some. Perhaps I'll have the vampire return later as a boss figure NPC and they'll see what happens when a player tries to pull one over on the DM. The divine rank thing was gained after the rogue rolled like 8 nat 20s in a row on a crafting check and the gods of that skill elevated him to that position out of intrigue and respect. It hasn't been an issue yet since the player himself keeps forgetting he gained free levels in cleric and makes more use out of his increased move speed and divine bonus in craft art than anything combat-related he gained.

[ViperMagnum357]

^Alright, not to put too fine a point on it, but you need to come to a serious decision about this player-if they are willing to work with the group, they can reformat their builds to bring them in line with the Vampire. If your player is unwilling, you need to do something IRL-have a talk, make a decision, and strongly consider booting the player if this seems to be a feature rather than a bug of their time at the table. There is just no way to resolve this in game without dropping rocks on the character, so you seem to have asked the wrong question-trying to write around the shameless munchkin who warped and derailed your campaign, rather than dealing with the player directly.

[Calthropstu]

demilich does not mean epic caster. In fact, the standard demilich is quite killable by a standard low op 14th level party.

[Zancloufer]

demilich does not mean epic caster. In fact, the standard demilich is quite killable by a standard low op 14th level party.

Umm



Special Attacks: Trap the soul, fear aura, paralyzing touch, 21st-level wizard spellcaster, Perfect Automatic Still Spell, spell-like abilities

And:



Creating Soul Gems

Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches. Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. If all the soul gems, as well as the demilich’s phylactery, are not destroyed after a demilich is downed, the demilich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. The soul gems also allow the demilich to use its most devastating ability, trap the soul (see above). Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

Not a 21st level Caster = Not a Demilich.

[Calthropstu]

Umm



And:



Not a 21st level Caster = Not a Demilich.

Erm. Well crap... I thought back to where I was trying to remember it all, and it looks like I was remembering the PF version which lost all spellcasting abilities but instead gained some ridiculous abilities. Nvm, carry on.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nah, your party is going about this wrong and your archmage is being stupid. He should flatly tell the party "This is not a fight you can win, not in a dead magic zone, not anywhere. Go in, get as much information as you can out of the demilich and get your families and go home. I won't help you commit suicide."

Then he should calmly walk away and quietly, without informing anyone going to the meeting, use wish to summon all the Demi-liche's soul gems and break them while the lich is in a dead magic zone and unable to realize they are being broken.

[Crake]

Umm



And:



Not a 21st level Caster = Not a Demilich.

That's actually just the sample demi lich. Nothing under demilich template requires you to be 21st level, the soul gems require 21st caster level to create, but that can be achieved pre-epic, so you COULD technically have a pre-epic demilich.

[Kaleph]

That's actually just the sample demi lich. Nothing under demilich template requires you to be 21st level, the soul gems require 21st caster level to create, but that can be achieved pre-epic, so you COULD technically have a pre-epic demilich.

Actually, the SRD says "the lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level"; it's in the same sentence you mention.

[herceg]

Nah, your party is going about this wrong and your archmage is being stupid. He should flatly tell the party "This is not a fight you can win, not in a dead magic zone, not anywhere. Go in, get as much information as you can out of the demilich and get your families and go home. I won't help you commit suicide."

Then he should calmly walk away and quietly, without informing anyone going to the meeting, use wish to summon all the Demi-liche's soul gems and break them while the lich is in a dead magic zone and unable to realize they are being broken.

So. Much. This.

[Fouredged Sword]

So. Much. This.

And he can send a simulacrum with the party to bluff the Lich into thinking he is also incapacitated from acting on a global scale while in the dead zone. He should tell the party explicitly that he WILL NOT HELP THEM FIGHT. PERIOD.