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View Full Version : I am become Ninja; Or you too can be an inferior rogue.



ErebusVonMori
2017-05-22, 09:18 PM
WARNING: This post mentions monks heavily.

Where to start? Well the beginning obviously, back when I was first learning 3.5 and was just becoming aware of the fact not all classes were created equal I stumbled across the ninja entry in Complete Adventurer and was immediately taken with the idea. This will be great, my poor naïve self thought, it's going to be like a rogue and monk, taking the best of each and making a superior class.

Yeah...

What was even the point of making this class? I mean really, why?

It has less skill points than rogue (fair enough I guess, it's a more niche roll afterall), and sudden strike is literally sneak attack but worse as you can't benefit from flanking or use it for non-lethal.

You can't wear armour or be encumbered to get your AC bonus, makes sense, but then Wizards did the one thing that really proves it's malice rather than incompetence that struck down poor Monk, they stopped the Wis bonus to AC stacking. Really wizard? How many classes have wisdom as a key attribute? It's not like someone's going to multiclass a high tier martial into it for the bonus, or even a caster. Congratulations you made two classes with three THREE!!! primary attributes and then specifically stopped them synergising them and salvaging something vaguely useful from your piss poor design!

Then there's Ki Dodge. What is this? I mean I have invisibility already and sure we're about the level where people will start counteracting that with spells but unless it's specifically catered to stop me it's a worse version of another ability that I've already ****ing unlocked, sharing the same pool of resources and costing the same swift action, so I'm going to be invisible at the start of combat anyway because it's just flat out better.

And no death attack, seriously no death attack on a class that is basically an assassin. Even monks got a goddamn death attack!

Now great leap and fast climber, I love these abilities and have gotten a tonne of milage optimising for just those, unfortunately yet again ninja is outshine in its own area of expertise with the spell 'spider climb'.

Poison Use, it's a lovely thought but unfortunately poisons are expensive and frankly if I have to choose between a bonus to a single hit or a permanent +1 to something... yeah I don't think I'll choose to deliberately lower my power floor further.

Improved Poison Use - Wow, just wow, a class highly dependant on not staying within reach now has yet another way to completely waste their move action and thus get hit, or can choose to simply not be useful for a round. Seriously this is it? Make it a swift action and maybe then we'll talk. Hell make it that it's a free action and it's just assumed you've modified your weapon to have a vial of poison in the hilt.

Ghost Strike - lets you hit incorporeals for one of your ever-rationed and increasingly sparse ki-points, and it's lovely, it's useful and it genuinely is an aid to the party, now if only it had come during the stage where incorporeal enemies were still a threat to the party.

Acrobatics - for morons that think 6 skill points is a reasonable substitute for an actual class feature.

Ghost Sight - yet another good ability that would have been useful if it came earlier in the progression.

Ghost Mind - I... actually have no complaints about this except maybe that I wish it came a few levels earlier, I mean this ability is great (DC 20+ninja level, so 38 minimum).

Ghost Walk - Wizards say hi. They may also have been laughing.

Why? It could have been beautiful, a couple of the abilities are actually interesting and fun, but it just... falls flat. It needs Str, Dex and Wis (Hey Monk, yeah I'm depressed too) to function, deliberately stops monk ninja synergy which comes to mind naturally in terms of multiclassing/gestalt in terms of flavour. (Seriously Wizards, show us on the doll where the monk touched you.) Sudden Strike is literally a worse Sneak Attack. It's just shy of the skill points to be a skill monkey. A lot of the abilities are barely useful by the time you get them. And one class ability is literally skill points in disguise.

ericgrau
2017-05-23, 12:27 AM
Ghost step sudden strike archery is usually far better than rogue sneak attack and rogue defenses. At least until level 16 or 17ish. All in exchange for 2 skill points per level. And then the ninja gets a bunch of minor piddly abilities on top of this. Believe it or not a tiny ability is not a negative, it's a tiny positive. And if you blow a major ability score on a tiny ability, that's your own fault for falling for such a basic trap.

Wizards get quickened greater invisibility at level 15 btw, arcane tricksters who can actually use it for a sneat attack trigger get it at level 18. Assassins get swift invisibility at CL 8 which is nice, though only 1-2/day at that level. A 4500 gp wand of swift invis is the way to go once they can afford it, though that eats a lot of his WBL. A rogue can UMD it but not reliably until high level and often at additional expense to boost his modifier. Also eats a hand without additional tricks at the cost of build resources or even more gold. Wizards can tag the party rogue with greater invis at level 7 but since it eats an entire precious round they're usually better off with another spell until level 9 or so. Still not a main option at level 9, but a nice backup option when none of their other spells will work well. So not the same thing at all.

Zaq
2017-05-23, 12:44 AM
You're not really taking a terribly bold stance, but that doesn't make it less true. The Ninja is extremely underpowered. Most of the time, I'd pretty much use any other PC class with 6+INT skill points when building something that I'd like to describe as a "ninja." (Yes, even a Bard. They've got tricks that the Ninja doesn't. Though I think I'd rather play a Ninja than a Mountebank or a Savant—I just forget that those two exist most of the time.)


Ghost step sudden strike archery is usually far better than rogue sneak attack and rogue defenses. At least until level 16 or 17ish. All in exchange for 2 skill points per level. And then the ninja gets a bunch of minor piddly abilities on top of this. Believe it or not a tiny ability is not a negative, it's a tiny positive. And if you blow a major ability score on a tiny ability, that's your own fault for falling for such a basic trap.

That's nice when it works, but where are you getting enough ki to do that all day? You really don't get anything even close to resembling enough ki, and if you're built around the strategy you mentioned, you're damn near useless if you can't go invisible. As far as defenses go, again, while your ki lasts, invisibility is a nice defensive buff, but when you run out of ki (which is going to happen, like it or not), the fact that you have to be unarmored (and the fact that you're kind of MAD) makes your defenses likely to be worse than the Rogue's. (Oh, and you don't get Evasion until ECL 12, which is far too late; for ten levels, you're way worse at dealing with Reflex-based attacked than the Rogue is, so that's a mark against your defenses.) You can't just dip something for armor proficiency, either; Ghost Step only works when unarmored.

I agree that Ghost Step is a premier way of self-generating the conditions necessary for ranged precision damage (especially without help from a PrC), but your stamina is just godawful. I suppose that very late in the game, you've got noticeably more ki than you started with, but there also comes a point at which a nontrivial fraction of the monsters you're expected to fight will be immune to precision damage and/or able to see invisible things anyway, so you're kind of racing the clock.

(When I see someone who's dead-set on a Ghost Step-based Ninja, I tend to recommend dipping two levels of Monk for Invisible Fist, but that's a band-aid, really.)

GilesTheCleric
2017-05-23, 12:53 AM
Is this going to be a theme now? I call dibs on Healer.

ErebusVonMori
2017-05-23, 07:17 AM
Sorry if it's a theme, it's just I actually love the class and really wish it had been executed better. And yeah Ghost Step is amazing but the resource pool for it is far too small to the point I've never run a ninja who didn't also pick up a vanisher cloak.

And by milage for fast climb and great leap I meant fun, they're abilities I genuinely find fun to use and enjoy finding creative solutions with.

weckar
2017-05-23, 07:32 AM
I find that with the right feats and some minor multiclassing the Ninja class can pull off an Assassin's Creed style character reasonably well. If there were a multiclassing feat between Ninja and Ranger it may even be recommendable.

Psyren
2017-05-23, 09:10 AM
Is this going to be a theme now? I call dibs on Healer.

Healer is pretty awesome with Exalted spells, which they get by RAW. It's a decent way to play a toned-down cleric for a lower-op party.

As for Ninja - yeah, it's weak. Not much else to say. Try the PF one?

Karl Aegis
2017-05-23, 01:02 PM
Wizards copy-pasted the ninja class directly from Dragon Magazine which was published by Paizo. Including the pajama-wearing stagehand art. It's not even a stealthy ninja, either. Black sticks out like a sore thumb in any lighting at all and in no lighting nobody can see anything so it doesn't matter what color you are. They really should have gone with buff shirtless guys like they did in that old Mortal Kombat movie.

Psyren
2017-05-23, 02:11 PM
Hey, it beats orange jumpsuits!

The idea isn't to avoid notice in pitch darkness, the idea is to be able to blend into shadows in lit-but-still-gloomy settings

Florian
2017-05-23, 02:19 PM
Black sticks out like a sore thumb in any lighting at all and in no lighting nobody can see anything so it doesn't matter what color you are. They really should have gone with buff shirtless guys like they did in that old Mortal Kombat movie.

There´s a running gag in L5R: The guys in the black pajamas are not ninjas, they´re the distraction. The real ninja look just like everybody else. (It´s a common punishment in ninja training dojos to use some stupid, non-functional weapons, wear that black pajamas and get spotted while trying the climb a wall or some such)

mabriss lethe
2017-05-23, 02:36 PM
There´s a running gag in L5R: The guys in the black pajamas are not ninjas, they´re the distraction. The real ninja look just like everybody else. (It´s a common punishment in ninja training dojos to use some stupid, non-functional weapons, wear that black pajamas and get spotted while trying the climb a wall or some such)


The Good Ol' Gauntlet. Of course, it isn't a punishment. It's a rite of passage among Scorpions. Only novice students have to wear the black costumes and wield garbage weapons as a distraction for their more accomplished clanmates.

While 3.5 ninja is pretty bad, snagging even some low level ToB maneuvers and a few of the feats that grant orthogonal abilities can stabilize their bag of tricks to a fairly large degree. (of course, the same tactics work for most of the sub-par classes in 3.5, so I suppose this hardly classifies as advice.)

Elderand
2017-05-23, 02:44 PM
Hey, it beats orange jumpsuits!

The idea isn't to avoid notice in pitch darkness, the idea is to be able to blend into shadows in lit-but-still-gloomy settings

Nope, the idea is to be able to look like a stage hand responsible for special effect in theater that the audience knows to ignore whne SURPRISe ! It was a ninja all along !

Waker
2017-05-23, 02:59 PM
In Dragon 354, they did provide a few alternative ACFs for the ninja class. They aren't amazing, but some of them could be fun. The standard ninja is considered a Ninja of Air, replacing Ghost Step, Ghost Strike and the Ghost Step improvement.
Fire Ninjas blind creatures within 20ft for 1 round (Reflex to save). At 8th level, Sudden Striking a blinded target increases the blindness for 1 additional round. At 10th level, your attacks set targets on fire for 1 one.
Water Ninjas create Obscuring Mist for 1 round, though your own vision isn't hampered by it. At 8th level, you can lace your mist with a contact or inhaled poison, though since it is dispersed creatures gain a +2 bonus on the save. At 10th level, it becomes Solid Fog, though you ignore the movement penalty.
Earth Ninja can Meld Into Stone for 1 minute. At 8th level, you gain a burrow speed for 1 round. At 10th level, using burrow covers you with stone/dirt granting DR10/Adamantine for 1d4 rounds.

Fearan
2017-05-23, 03:08 PM
Hey, it beats orange jumpsuits!

Nah, it doesn't At least with an orange jumpsuit you can blend in in a civilian group.

On to the topic. Honestly, there is a single word which hits the ninja worse then all mentioned. And the word is...Swordsage

denthor
2017-05-23, 03:17 PM
What is the alignment requirement?

DEMON
2017-05-23, 05:54 PM
Is this going to be a theme now? I call dibs on Healer.

Looking forward to that :smallbiggrin: Who's up for the gems like Divine Mind and Soulborn?

Also, yeah, the Ninja class is far from anything resembling a powerful class. The good abilities usually come online too late (or you lack the ki to power them often enough) and the bad abilities are, well, bad.

But I had a great fun with one in a super-low-op one-shot game where it was accompanied by a Monk and a Fighter. The power level was right up his alley.

Bottom line?

not all classes were created equal (sadly)

GilesTheCleric
2017-05-23, 06:29 PM
Looking forward to that :smallbiggrin: Who's up for the gems like Divine Mind and Soulborn?

Also, yeah, the Ninja class is far from anything resembling a powerful class. The good abilities usually come online too late (or you lack the ki to power them often enough) and the bad abilities are, well, bad.

But I had a great fun with one in a super-low-op one-shot game where it was accompanied by a Monk and a Fighter. The power level was right up his alley.

Bottom line?
(sadly)

Sorry to disappoint, but I have too many other projects right now to make a snarky thread about Healers. Maybe in the future, though.

Psyren
2017-05-23, 06:52 PM
I'm incapable of making threads like that because I just end up optimizing them all to not be sh**. I think it's the kind of itch that all handbook writers share - "how can I make this class not be sh**?"

mabriss lethe
2017-05-23, 08:14 PM
I'm incapable of making threads like that because I just end up optimizing them all to not be sh**. I think it's the kind of itch that all handbook writers share - "how can I make this class not be sh**?"


On occasion, I've been sorely tempted to start a series of handbooks titled "The Turd-Polisher's Guide to X" for all of the really sub-par classes.