Two weapon fighting potential fix

[Arcangel4774]

I had an idea for a potential fix, but don't know how to balance it as it's harder to find a direct comparison. My proposed fix will be implemented as changes to the dual wielder feat.

*Edited as it was way too strong*

*Prereq 13 dex
(This makes it more of an investment and matches the dexterous nature required to wield 2 weapons)

Change: "you can use two weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons are not light" to "only the offhand melee weapon must be light when using two weapon fighting. If strength Is 15 or higher neither have to be light."

Add: "bonus action to use offhanded weapon obtains *half an extra attack each time the attack action does, rounded up.
(Fixes the stupidly high scaling with extra attacks on fighters)

*Change: add a bonus action cost to the +1 ac.
(Fighting with two weapons, in my opinion shouldn't be a defensive option but an offensive one. However the ability to defend makes sense. With this reasononig the extra aggresuon can be sacrificed for a defensive stance. It shouldn't outclass a shield, however)

Is there any particular edge cases i should be worried about or does it step on any class/archetypes feet too strongly.

[Khrysaes]

I had an idea for a potential fix, but don't know how to balance it as it's harder to find a direct comparison. My proposed fix will be implemented as changes to the dual wielder feat.

Change: "you can use two weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons are not light" to "only the offhand melee weapon must be light when using two weapon fighting. If strength Is 15 or higher neither have to be light."

Add: "bonus action to use offhanded weapon obtains extra attacks when the attack action does"

Issues: i personally think this is too strong when compounded with +1 ac. Would it be better to allow that ac bonus only as a bonus action to offset the bonus attacks? Is there any particular edge cases i should be worried about or does it step on any class/archetypes feet too strongly.

Change the second part about the bonus action, to "The offhand attack no longer requires a bonus action and may be included in with the attack action, you are still limited to one offhand attack per round"

A fighter would get so many more attacks than anyone else. It is meant to be only 1 extra. Hell even with that change it is an extra chance to hit for every person. but less broken to have a fighter 20 doing 5 attacks + bonus action, rather than 8 attacks.

Others would get 2-3 attacks + bonus action, but their usual other goodies.

[Willywilliamrtx]

I've always preferred additions like ''you can also use your reaction to increase your AC by 5 when targetted for an attack that requires an attack roll''

TWF really starts shining when you have 2 magical weapons to swing around and can even pull ahead depending on the kind of weapons you have. (Because yanno, two swords of wounding with however many attacks you have and suddenly whatever you're fighting can't heal anymore).

Hell, you could even optimize TWF yourself by making one of your weapons a Defender and swapping out its bonus for AC permanently. Now you suddenly have a regular sword for your off-hand, but you get +3AC in return (not counting the TWF style, purely the Defender sword).

[Findulidas]

Is TWF really that bad it needs a fix? Im not sure that really is true.

[Jerrykhor]

Is TWF really that bad it needs a fix? Im not sure that really is true.

It gets outclassed at high levels by just about every other fighting style. Not to mention the silly aspect of a 20th level TWF fighter can attack 4 times with his main hand but only 1 time with the off hand.

[Willywilliamrtx]

It gets outclassed at high levels by just about every other fighting style. Not to mention the silly aspect of a 20th level TWF fighter can attack 4 times with his main hand but only 1 time with the off hand.

The problem in balancing this is: what if the TWF user is holding 2 flame tongue swords? Giving him so many extra attacks spikes his damage up DRAMATICALLY. I really don't think the style needs an offensive boost, but a defensive one. Hell, let them use their reaction to use the Parry martial style or something.

[Arcangel4774]

It gets outclassed at high levels by just about every other fighting style. Not to mention the silly aspect of a 20th level TWF fighter can attack 4 times with his main hand but only 1 time with the off hand.

This was my issue, not necessarily the outclassing but oddness of only one extra hit.

[Findulidas]

It gets outclassed at high levels by just about every other fighting style. Not to mention the silly aspect of a 20th level TWF fighter can attack 4 times with his main hand but only 1 time with the off hand.

Yeah, well just because its the weakest style does not mean it needs balancing. Its probably still perfectly playable.

Having four mainhand attacks and only one offhand by level 20 seems rather silly. Then again by that level giving the fighter one additional offhand attack is probably fair considering the amount of powergaming the average played can pull off by then if they try. Having three mainhand and one offhand by lvl 11 does not seem unlikely to me though. Considering its not the dominant hand and when you are using two weapons its often difficult to successfully attack with both IRL anyway. Its actually much more easy to use two weapons for defensive motions, marrying them together to block and so on.

[Jacquerel]

Technically the high level fighter is not making four main hand and one offhand attacks, but four attacks with whatever weapon they like and also an additional attack with whichever weapon they like (or the other weapon, if they used their other attacks on only one weapon).
5e does not differentiate between main and offhand weapons, nor specify that attacks made with Extra Attack must be made with the same weapon.

The important difference is not what hand they use, but that it's only one more attack than they would have made if they were not two-weapon fighting.

[Jerrykhor]

Technically the high level fighter is not making four main hand and one offhand attacks, but four attacks with whatever weapon they like and also an additional attack with whichever weapon they like (or the other weapon, if they used their other attacks on only one weapon).
5e does not differentiate between main and offhand weapons, nor specify that attacks made with Extra Attack must be made with the same weapon.

The important difference is not what hand they use, but that it's only one more attack than they would have made if they were not two-weapon fighting.

That's not true. Off hand attack does not get to add the ability modifier to damage, unless they take the TWF Fighting Style. So off hand attacks are always weaker than main hand, thats the main difference.

[Jacquerel]

That's not true. Off hand attack does not get to add the ability modifier to damage, unless they take the TWF Fighting Style. So off hand attacks are always weaker than main hand, thats the main difference.

That's also not true.
The Bonus Action attack does not get to add its proficiency modifier without a feat.
It doesn't matter what hand the weapon is held in.

If you use Extra Attack to make two attacks with two different weapons, you add your proficiency modifier to the damage of both attacks, even without the feat. It is only the two-weapon fighting bonus action attack that has a damage penalty. "Off Hand" attacks are therefore not always weaker than main hand attacks.
This is why I am trying to tell people not to refer to these as "main hand" and "off hand" attacks, because it's making assumptions about the rules that aren't actually true. 5e does not care what hand you are holding your weapon in.

[Arcangel4774]

Technically the high level fighter is not making four main hand and one offhand attacks, but four attacks with whatever weapon they like and also an additional attack with whichever weapon they like (or the other weapon, if they used their other attacks on only one weapon).
5e does not differentiate between main and offhand weapons, nor specify that attacks made with Extra Attack must be made with the same weapon

Two weapon fighting in PHB:

When you take an attack action and hit with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you are holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack unless the modifier is negative.

While it doesn't differentiate between main and offhand, it does specify that the bonus attack and main attack must be two different weapons. Consequently, unless you have 3 arms, or wield more than 2 weapons ala zoro or killer b, you aren't going to be using the bonus action attack.

[Jacquerel]

Two weapon fighting in PHB:

When you take an attack action and hit with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you are holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack unless the modifier is negative.

While it doesn't differentiate between main and offhand, it does specify that the bonus attack and main attack must be two different weapons. Consequently, unless you have 3 arms, or wield more than 2 weapons ala zoro or killer b, you aren't going to be using the bonus action attack.

Take Attack Action, hit with weapon
Bonus Action attack with other weapon
Extra Attack from Attack action with other weapon
Extra Attack from Attack action with first weapon

Wow, look ma, two hands!
You don't even need to do it in that order. It only requires that you attack with a different weapon than you most recently hit anyone with on this turn.
You can vary how many times you attack with either weapon as much as you like.

The only thing that you can't do is use all of your attacks on the same weapon, and then use a bonus action to attack with that same weapon an additional time. You have to use both weapons, but you can split your bonus attack and extra attacks between them. The bonus action attack only has to use a different weapon to the preceding attack, it does not require three weapons.
Handedness does not matter.

[DanyBallon]

What if you keep the Dual wielding feat as is, and instead add the following to the two weapon fighting style:

"When you engage in two weapon fighting, you can make an extra attack with your bonus action equal to your number of extra attack/2 (rounded down)"

This mean that Fighter 11+ will be able to make 2 attacks with a bonus action, while everyone else keep the same number of attacks they already have.

Otherwise, if you want every classes that get the Extra Attack feature to get an extra attack as well on their bonus action, juste remove the "divide by 2", but I fear that it will be too OP.

[DivisibleByZero]

We made it simple.
At 11th level, if you have the Extra Attack feature the bonus action attack granted by TWF or Martial Arts grants two attacks for that bonus action.
Flurry of Blows then grants three attacks instead of two.