DM against a party who has high magic options and wants a mythic difficulty

[Oerlaf]

Recently a group of players asked me to run an adventure for their 17th level magic heavy party and I agreed. I know just one adventure they want to play, so I need some advice.

- How to prevent the use of burrowing speed in any other way except simply saying 'It's a stone here, you cannot'
- How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.

[Oxydeur]

1) Floating/Flying island ? Dungeon with stone wall ? Lava ? Undergound trap (with lava) ?

2) Turn the elementals against them : maybe they are figthing a Archdruid who can seize control of elementals or a extremly old and powerful Elemental Lord ? (but keep that for the last fight fir a good plop twist/surprise)

[JellyPooga]

How to prevent the use of burrowing speed in any other way except simply saying 'It's a stone here, you cannot'

Water/sewer level?
Elemental Plane of Air?
Tree-top village/town/city?
Urban adventure?
Creature feature some burrowing critters?
Subterranean traps designed by an insane dungeon-builder?
Magic?
Wooden floor-boards?


How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.

- Mooks are a good counter to mooks.
- Feature other casters who control their own elementals; Water vs. Fire, Earth vs. Air. That or other summons; Animate Objects or any of the other Conjure X spells.

[Slipperychicken]

- How to prevent the use of burrowing speed in any other way except simply saying 'It's a stone here, you cannot'
- How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.

You could just have enemies that hang out peaceably underground but respond violently to intrusion. It could be a fun surprise to get chomped by an earth elemental, bulette, underground-dragon, or sandworm. They're level 17, they should be willing to accept this kind of thing.

Alternately, they're in some weird volcanic thing that hasn't yet been turned into dirt. Or a submarine complex where burrowing is unhelpful.

Adding more enemies is an option for elementals.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Half dragon variant of a hydra with like 9 heads as the boss - 9 breath weapons.
Then as lieutenants, use the matching golums for the type of dragon. So for a red dragon, use fire golums. Anytime the hydra uses the the breath weapon, it also heals its lieutenants
As minions, choose a large number of creatures that drains the party of a stat such as shadows that drain strength or intellect devourers that drain intelligence. They won't hit much but when they do it will actually hurt the party.
As the wildcard, have a high level wizard with true invisibility cast on herself. Never tell the players she's there, just have her roll into inniative and cast controlling spells. Players will assume it's some home brew version of liar actions and not spend much time investigating till it's too late

[DivisibleByZero]

The Banishment/Counterspell is easy.
There is no way under the rules of 5e for a caster to identify a spell as it is being cast (any way that people *thinks* exists is a port from a previous edition, and doesn't actually exist in 5e). He has to counter it before he knows what it is, because once he knows what it is it's already happened.
That's how he found out what it was. It just happened.

[Oerlaf]

Thank you for your advice. I have also found one of the funny ways to take care of the fire elemental.

One spellcaster tricks the wizard into casting counterspell against a banishment spell, while the other casts create and destroy water as a 6th level spell slot, causing 60 gallons of water to rain down on the elemental.

[Socratov]

Let them fight themsleves. Let's say the planes get a bit screwed up and some wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey stuff happened and suddenly there is the anti-version of the party ready to rock (hehe) and roll.

[Contrast]

Recently a group of players asked me to run an adventure for their 17th level magic heavy party and I agreed. I know just one adventure they want to play, so I need some advice.

- How to prevent the use of burrowing speed in any other way except simply saying 'It's a stone here, you cannot'
- How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.

I've always been amused by D&Ds seeming love of absurdly high burrowing speeds for non-magical means of burrowing. That said, I'm not quite sure why this has been singled out as an issue. The party is 17th level - they can likely fly, teleport, be invisible, scry, etc. Why are you finding burrowing particularly problematic?

For the elemental - how do they have an elemental? If its through the spell Conjure Elemental then making the spellcaster make concentration checks seems the easy solution. Or make them fight multiple combats spaced out throughout the day - they'll win the combats easier but they're spending spell slots to do it which is the game working as intended. If its some sort of permanent ally, just factor it in when figuring out how much stuff to throw at them in return.

[xen]

For the elementals, high level necromancer and oathbreaker with badass undead mooks to keep the party busy. You notice his mace is flaring with light. What's that, you're watching the wizard?

Oops, Banishing smite! Counterspell that.

I second the notion of not telling them what the spell is until they decide to counterspell. It's a split second decision. Or should be.

[DivisibleByZero]

I second the notion of not telling them what the spell is until they decide to counterspell. It's a split second decision. Or should be.

And that isn't just for high level play. That's for DnD 5e.
I'll repeat, just so it sinks in for people:
There is no way under the rules of 5e for a caster to identify a spell as it is being cast. Any way that people *think* exists is a port from a previous edition, and doesn't actually exist in 5e.

[xen]

And that isn't just for high level play. That's for DnD 5e.
I'll repeat, just so it sinks in for people:
There is no way under the rules of 5e for a caster to identify a spell as it is being cast. Any way that people *think* exists is a port from a previous edition, and doesn't actually exist in 5e.

At the least make it a scaling DC Arcana check to figure out the spell in time to figure if they want to counter, scaling on whether they are of the same class and have the same spell or not. I would make the DC harder for non Wizards or Sage backgrounds.

[xen]

As far as burrowing, that doesn't bother me. Have someone watch and use reaction to pop em when they come out. Or throw in some tremorsense and earth magic, that should do something. Otilukes Hamster Ball their digging butts. Can I say butts here?

Edit: guess so.

[Arcangel4774]

You could have earthquake like spells do some bonus affect to burrowing creatures. Make sure turnabout is fair play, but otherwise should work well.

[DivisibleByZero]

At the least make it a scaling DC Arcana check to figure out the spell in time to figure if they want to counter, scaling on whether they are of the same class and have the same spell or not. I would make the DC harder for non Wizards or Sage backgrounds.

House rule.
That's fine if you want to, but it isn't RAW.

Here's the thing.
In 3.5, you needed to know what spell it was in order to counter it, because you had to use the same spell or a higher level one from the same school (iIrc).
In 5e, all of that is unnecessary, because Counterspell is now a spell.
Is the enemy casting a spell at you? You can bet that it won't be good for you, and you have to decide to counter it or not right now, with no more information than the fact that an enemy is casting a spell which will almost assuredly be bad for you.
Frankly, that's enough. Decide.
Furthermore, 5e did everything in its power to minimize combat rolls and speed things up. Introducing a mechanic to identify a spell as it's being cast runs counter to that philosophy, which is just another reason there are no rules for it in this edition.

House rule it in if you want to, but it has been excluded from this edition on purpose. It wasn't an oversight, it was intentionally removed from the rules. A spell was created to fill that gap when you want to counter something.

[xen]

House rule.
That's fine if you want to, but it isn't RAW.

Here's the thing.
In 3.5, you needed to know what spell it was in order to counter it, because you had to use the same spell or a higher level one from the same school (iIrc).
In 5e, all of that is unnecessary, because Counterspell is now a spell.
Is the enemy casting a spell at you? You can bet that it won't be good for you, and you have to decide to counter it or not right now, with no more information than the fact that an enemy is casting a spell which will almost assuredly be bad for you.
Frankly, that's enough. Decide.
Furthermore, 5e did everything in its power to minimize combat rolls and speed things up. Introducing a mechanic to identify a spell as it's being cast runs counter to that philosophy, which is just another reason there are no rules for it in this edition.

House rule it in if you want to, but it has been excluded from this edition on purpose. It wasn't an oversight, it was intentionally removed from the rules. A spell was created to fill that gap when you want to counter something.

Oh yes I realize I am houseruling it. Mostly to combat that "wait till I hear what you're casting then decide at the last second to counterspell". Doesn't seem to slow combat noticeably.

[DivisibleByZero]

Oh yes I realize I am houseruling it. Mostly to combat that "wait till I hear what you're casting then decide at the last second to counterspell". Doesn't seem to slow combat noticeably.

My point is that the "wait till I hear what you're casting then decide at the last second to counterspell" part doesn't actually happen. Not in 5e.
You don't get to know what they're casting when they're casting it. Under the rules, by the time the PCs find out what he was casting, they flound out because he finished casting it and it happened, so there's nothing left for them to counter.
So that thing that you houseruled to combat a certain scenario? That scenario only exists because you houseruled it in. That thing you're trying to combat doesn't actually exist. You created it (houseruled it in), and now you're houseruling something to combat something that you houseruled in.

They have to blindly choose whether to counter or not.
"The enemy wizard begins casting a spell, roll a Wis saving throw." --NOT-- "the enemy casts <insert spell here>."
There is no way for them to know what spell is being cast until the spell is complete, at which point there's nothing left to counter.
Those are the rules.

You felt the need to create rules to solve a problem. But you created that problem that you felt you needed to solve.
Just play it by the rules, and the problem disappears and doesn't need to be solved.

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
In the process of. Since there is no way under the rules to identify a spell that is being cast, you only find out when it's done. Once it's done, they are no longer in the process of casting it.
Counter blindly, or not at all. Those are the rules.

[xen]

My point is that the "wait till I hear what you're casting then decide at the last second to counterspell" part doesn't actually happen. Not in 5e.
You don't get to know what they're casting when they're casting it. Under the rules, by the time the PCs find out what he was casting, they flound out because he finished casting it and it happened, so there's nothing left for them to counter.
So that thing that you houseruled to combat a certain scenario? That scenario only exists because you houseruled it in. That thing you're trying to combat doesn't actually exist. You created it (houseruled it in), and now you're houseruling something to combat something that you houseruled in.

They have to blindly choose whether to counter or not.
"The enemy wizard begins casting a spell, roll a Wis saving throw." --NOT-- "the enemy casts <insert spell here>."
There is no way for them to know what spell is being cast until the spell is complete, at which point there's nothing left to counter.
Those are the rules.

You felt the need to create rules to solve a problem. But you created that problem that you felt you needed to solve.
Just play it by the rules, and the problem disappears and doesn't need to be solved.

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.
In the process of. Since there is no way under the rules to identify a spell that is being cast, you only find out when it's done. Once it's done, they are no longer in the process of casting it.
Counter blindly, or not at all. Those are the rules.

Ok. I get that. And in a white room you are correct. At our table it wasn't working like that and instead of saying 'no you have to guess when counterspell is useful' we did this. We feel (we take turns DMing so many of our house rules are negotiated) that it brings an element we like, as we like bringing knowledge skills back into combat.

Of course, you are free to run your table however you wish.

[DivisibleByZero]

Ok. I get that. And in a white room you are correct. At our table it wasn't working like that and instead of saying 'no you have to guess when counterspell is useful' we did this. We feel (we take turns DMing so many of our house rules are negotiated) that it brings an element we like, as we like bringing knowledge skills back into combat.

Of course, you are free to run your table however you wish.

You don't have to guess when Counterspell will be useful.
You can rest assured that when an enemy spellcaster begins casting a spell.... ANY spell.... it would be in the PCs' best interests to counter it. Enemy spellcasters don't cast spells that the PCs are thankful for any more than the PCs cast spells that the enemies are thankful for. If they're casting, you can bet that it will be better for you if they weren't.
You don't have to guess when it will be useful. It will ALWAYS be useful. You just have to decide if you want to spend a slot or not. That's it.

[Socratov]

You don't have to guess when Counterspell will be useful.
You can rest assured that when an enemy spellcaster begins casting a spell.... ANY spell.... it would be in the PCs' best interests to counter it. Enemy spellcasters don't cast spells that the PCs are thankful for. If they're casting, you can bet that it will be better for you if they weren't.
You don't have to guess when it will be useful. It will ALWAYS be useful. You just have to decide if you want to spend a slot or not. That's it.

Well, that depends, you see, casting and couterspelling is not unlike a game of poker: some spells are nastier then others, what's more, some spells you really want countered and others are rather tankable.

For instance, casting a cantrip is casting a spell.

I can't think of a cantrip that has far reaching effects that warrant a counterspell in the usual circumstances.


Now those nasty spells like Dominate, Hold X, Suggestion and their ilk are prime targets for counterspell as they have far reaching results, far more then direct damage or milder inconveniences like fog cloud or something.

Also, you can only counterspell once per round, so when facing a sorcerer or multiple casters the cast vs. counter game quickly becomes a game of call or fold with more consequences then 'just' money.

But then again, I allow a lot of stuff for the players only because I think turnabout is fair play and any tactic they use against me is fair to be used by me against them. So if they want to identify spells cast by my casters, you can bet that their spells will be identified by my casters. With all due results.

[lunaticfringe]

You don't have to guess when Counterspell will be useful.
You can rest assured that when an enemy spellcaster begins casting a spell.... ANY spell.... it would be in the PCs' best interests to counter it. Enemy spellcasters don't cast spells that the PCs are thankful for any more than the PCs cast spells that the enemies are thankful for. If they're casting, you can bet that it will be better for you if they weren't.
You don't have to guess when it will be useful. It will ALWAYS be useful. You just have to decide if you want to spend a slot or not. That's it.

This. I DM, my Mook is about to mess you up. A person is playing that Caster why would they not choose the most effective way to screw with you. Also custom spell lists are a thing, DMs do all that time, be wary.

[Contrast]

My point is that the "wait till I hear what you're casting then decide at the last second to counterspell" part doesn't actually happen. Not in 5e.

In order for this to work fully every casting of a spell by the DM or player would have to go like this:

Person casting spell: I'm going to cast a spell, are you gonna counterspell?
Person being maybe possibly fireballed: Where does it look like you're looking? Not clear? Err...hmmm...No?
Person casting spell: Cool, I target a fireball right in the middle.

I think the reason this gets ignored is that in my experience the exchange usually goes like this:

Person casting spell: *reaching for d6s* Ok I target a fireball right in the middle.
Person being fireballed: Counterspell!

Its unreasonable to expect people to sit on the edge of their seats for every action in every round of combat so they can try and shout over and interrupt you mid-sentence by saying counterspell. I would guess this is usually done out of carelessness, laziness or simply a desire to try and resolve combat as quickly/easily as possible. It would get particularly tedious for the players to clarify each time as they could never be certain if an enemy had access to counterspell unike the DM so they'd have to do it all the time regardless.

Whats that thing about not balancing a mechanic by making it tedious to use? That seems to be how counterspell is balanced by RAW to me in 5E.

[DivisibleByZero]

That's fine if you just want to announce it immediately every time.
But there is no way to identify it as its being cast under the rules.
Either everyone knows because you announced it, or no one knows because you didn't. There is no in between without house rules.

[mephnick]

If an enemy caster is casting a spell it's probably a good spell because he's only going to last a few rounds and the DM wants to use his cool stuff. Just counterspell it unless you have a good reason not to.

[Asmotherion]

Recently a group of players asked me to run an adventure for their 17th level magic heavy party and I agreed. I know just one adventure they want to play, so I need some advice.

- How to prevent the use of burrowing speed in any other way except simply saying 'It's a stone here, you cannot'
- How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.

A) To add a more mundane aswear, simply a Tower Crawl or Being Abroad a Ship should counter most of it. Don't make the ability useless however, just keep it relative without becoming an "I win" button as in "I get in the earth, so mooks can't attack me". Alternativelly, add a plot-twist caster that can use Earthquake, in case of abuse. They can handle it without getting killed at that level, yet they will understand that the underground is not as safe as they thought.

B) Generally, Counter Casters with Casters. Have an enemy with Banishment Prepared, or dispell magic on the elemental or caster. Since it is a Concentration Spell, and there is an ongoing duration, it can be interpreted either as the elemental being maintained on this plane by ongoing magic, and returning back as the spell ends or simply loosing contron, and the elemental attacks it's caster, unhappy of being bound. If you don't treat summons as puppets that are an extention of the caster's will (or treat them exacltly like robots on the other hand) they may even try and pervert the literal interpretation of the wording of their orders, and thus become a nuisance unless well controled.

Since I'm guessing the problem originated from an elemental ring, (Ring of Earth Elemental Control) I'll also mention RP nuisances of having it. People might view it as evil, as it is assosiated with the Dao Realm of Elemental Earth. Or maybe it originally belinged to a Dao Noble and he wants it back. Others might want to aquire such a powerfull item for themselves too, and go to great leanghths to get it, including hiring thiefs/assasins, challenging the player to a honorable duel, or even making a bargain the player can't refuse without great consequances (the ring for the life of their party member for example that has been possesed by a Devil, and is willing to exchange possetion of the ring for his current hoast).

[DivisibleByZero]

If an enemy caster is casting a spell it's probably a good spell because he's only going to last a few rounds and the DM wants to use his cool stuff. Just counterspell it unless you have a good reason not to.

Nope. According to some people here, enemy casters like to throw cantrips or something. Because that's a thing that happens, I guess....

[Asmotherion]

Nope. According to some people here, enemy casters like to throw cantrips or something. Because that's a thing that happens, I guess....
Depends... If he's a Warlock, he might go for Eldritch Blasts, and only buff/debuff via spells (Armor of Agathys/Hex for example).

An other approach is Superriority Complex/Boasting... As in saying "I don't even need to use a single Spell Slots to defeat YOU!"

Finally, not all enemy casters are Evil Aligned. He might just want to scare you off, but not be bloodthirsty enough to want to kill you outright. A Cantrip makes an excelent point of "I am a caster, so I can hurt you really bad if I want to. Now turn around and run."

[Corran]

Ok, perhaps I am wrong, but I dont think that using arcana or an intelligence check (at no action cost) when you see something being cast, in order to recognize what it is, is actually against any existing rules.

No RAW to tell us explicitely how to resolve it, but I cant find anything that prohibits it either (unless I am missing sth?).

So maybe it's one of those cases where the rules are vague and lacking, to allow this to fall under DM's discretion, so that it can suit a wide range of preferences and playstyles.


Back on topic:


- How should I handle the elementals one of the players controls. I thought of banishment, but a player has counterspell prepared.
Divine word (cleric spell, level 7 I think) could help too. Though they need to be weakened. So, throw numbers against them (bounded accuracy!), and chop at his elemental army a few at a time. Just an idea.

[xen]

Depends... If he's a Warlock, he might go for Eldritch Blasts, and only buff/debuff via spells (Armor of Agathys/Hex for example).

An other approach is Superriority Complex/Boasting... As in saying "I don't even need to use a single Spell Slots to defeat YOU!"

Finally, not all enemy casters are Evil Aligned. He might just want to scare you off, but not be bloodthirsty enough to want to kill you outright. A Cantrip makes an excelent point of "I am a caster, so I can hurt you really bad if I want to. Now turn around and run."

This.

I also usually run spellcasters under DM control strategically, depending on the type of spellcaster. Sometimes they also may be wanting to test the party out to figure the best strategy, as I try not to metagame them like they automatically know the parties strengths and weaknesses.

And they're rarely sitting around so everyone can gang up on them. They either have mooks or terrain or other advantages available to use so they don't just go down like a sack of meat.

I tend to think spell combat should be strategic and dynamic, rather than just a devolved counterspell, I counterspell your counterspell sinkhole where, by the end, we've all forgotten what we were casting to start with.

[xen]

Ok, perhaps I am wrong, but I dont think that using arcana or an intelligence check (at no action cost) when you see something being cast, in order to recognize what it is, is actually against any existing rules.

No RAW to tell us explicitely how to resolve it, but I cant find anything that prohibits it either (unless I am missing sth?).

So maybe it's one of those cases where the rules are vague and lacking, to allow this to fall under DM's discretion, so that it can suit a wide range of preferences and playstyles.


I don't think you're wrong. But then again I don't care enough to look it up right now either, so what do I know.

The way I figure it, I'm not trying to DM or play in AL games so as long as it's fun and works for your table, who cares!

[solidork]

Nope. According to some people here, enemy casters like to throw cantrips or something. Because that's a thing that happens, I guess....

Minor spoilers for Princes of the Apocalypse

I mean, we frequently had to play the "How many times do you think they can cast fireball?" game while playing Princes of the Apocalypse. Things can also get less clear cut when you're facing more mages than you have counterspells. In one fight, our Wizard decided let a less powerful enemy mage get something off so he could counter whatever the cult leader did... only for the cult leader to rock up and make three melee attacks. But most of the time? Yeah, you just counter it.