[3.5] How do Ability Penalties and Ability Damage interact?

[prototype00]

Say an unfortunate Town Guard has 10 strength. I hit him with a poison that inflicts 4 strength damage then hit him with a -6 strength penalty.

What is his effective strength now? Is he paralysed? Would it be different if the conditions were applied in the opposite fashion? (Penalty first then Damage)

Cheers for the answer!

[Necroticplague]

0, he's paralyzed, order doesn't matter. The main difference between penalties and damage is persistence and stacking with the same type of effect (i.e, you can add more ability damage, but only the largest penalty applies. Ability damage is also persistent, like HP damage, while penalties instantly disappear once their source is gone).

Note that, though it's not a general rule I can find, some penalties have a 'can't go below 1' restriction, which could make order matter (i.e, bestow curse).

[Shark Uppercut]

"Ability Score Penalties
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."
(Although this is for PF.)
'Just like ability damage' = stacks with ability damage, because Str damage from 2 poisons stacks.
Until you have 10 actual Strength damage, the guard will be damaged 4 and penalized 6, capping at 1.
I believe order wouldn't matter, if the -6 was applied then 4 damage then 1 point of the penalty will disappear just so Strength stays at 1.

[Fouredged Sword]

You always apply ability damage first. Ability damage, drain, burn or other such ability damage works like HP and reduces the ability score and recovers at a set rate or when healed by abilities that specifically heal it. All ability damage stacks with itself, even from the same source or repeated applications of a single ability.

Ability penalties are applied second and at the same time as ability bonuses like enhancement bonuses. They cannot be healed by resting or spells that restore ability damage. Generally they have a specific time specified in the wording of the ability that causes the ability penalty. Some ability penalties can reduce a score to zero. Some ability penalties cannot. Those that cannot specify they cannot within the text of the ability penalty. Read it carefully. Many ability penalties are magical in nature and can be suppressed or removed with dispel magic or greater dispel magic. Others are not and are caused by specific conditions and are removed when the conditions are resolved (fatigue). Ability penalties from different sources stack based on the stacking rules for all effects.

To overcome an ability bonus with ability damage you must damage the target's ability score to negative values. A creature chooses the order of effects on it as they apply so a creature with an ability penalty that reduces their ability score to 1 but cannot reduce it to zero and ability bonus can apply the ability penalty first and apply all their bonuses from 1 potentially reducing the utility of the penalty. For example a barbarian with a strength damaged down to 2 and effected by a strength penalty of -6 that states it cannot reduce his strength lower than one and is wearing a belt of +4 enhancement bonus to strength and can rage for +4 strength can function as if he had a strength of 9 (1 base+4+4) by raging. If the ability penalty did not have a unable to disable clause he would be at 4 (2-6+4+4).

I hope this helps.

[Firest Kathon]

I think for 3.5 there is no general rule that ability penalties cannot drop the score below 1, but it seems to be spelled out in the specific causes (e.g. Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm)). Ability penalties themselves are not really defined either, but a logical rule would be to apply first drain, then damage, then penalties.

Edited to add: @Fouredged Sword: Do you know a source for that?

[Kaleph]

"Ability Score Penalties
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."
(Although this is for PF.)
'Just like ability damage' = stacks with ability damage, because Str damage from 2 poisons stacks.
Until you have 10 actual Strength damage, the guard will be damaged 4 and penalized 6, capping at 1.
I believe order wouldn't matter, if the -6 was applied then 4 damage then 1 point of the penalty will disappear just so Strength stays at 1.

Only for completeness, in D&D "Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores"; they are in the first place penalties, and in principle penalties from the same source shouldn't stack unless explicitly mentioned in the ability's description. I perfectly agree with you, anyhow, that penalty + damage stack.

The point regarding "penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1" is quite tricky, though. I would not be able to easily judge if the order would matter or not. The Problem seems not to exist in the D&D world, where this Limitation to the effect of ability score penalties is nowhere mentioned, at least explicitly. An ability score Penalty leading to a 0 ability score can make sense to me, if I compare it with the way the negative Levels work.

[prototype00]

So if it is one of those "can't reduce below 1" penalties, guard guy is still good to go (at 1 str)? So basically you have to damage him all the way to 0 before he gives up and stops moving, just curious?

prototype00

[Fouredged Sword]

So if it is one of those "can't reduce below 1" penalties, guard guy is still good to go (at 1 str)? So basically you have to damage him all the way to 0 before he gives up and stops moving, just curious?

prototype00

Yes, but at one strength he is likely unable to move anyway. His carry capacity has been reduced to a 3lb light load. If he is carrying more than 20lbs he cannot move. If he is carrying more than 10lbs he can stagger 5 feet a round and still loses his dex to ac. He can strip naked and run away, but he cannot effectively fight unless he happens to be a monk and then he can punch people for 1d6-4 damage at a -4 to hit.

Not sure the RAW here, but if he is carrying more than 20 lbs he cannot even lift the weight and as DM I would have him automatically drop anything in his hands and, if his armor is still too heavy, have him drop prone and be unable to stand up. If his load is still more than 25lbs (his drag capacity for bad dragging conditions (being prone makes it hard to drag things)) I wouldn't even let him crawl away.

If your guard is wearing a 25lb chain shirt he should be reduced to prone and unable to move until he removes it.

[weckar]

Mind, this whole thing gets quite confusing with the arcane anti-ability rays, as some do damage and others apply penalties with no conceivable rhyme or reason to it.

[Fouredged Sword]

One thing to keep in mind is that, mostly with strength and con, you sometimes get the effect of a full zero score without having to actually reduce the score to zero. A character who cannot carry his load and even stagger cannot move. A character who loses HP due to con penalties or damage may die well before they reach 0 con.

[Psyren]

I'd apply them in the order he took them. So if you hit him with Ray of Exhaustion after the poison already did it's thing, he'd be at 1. But if the poison ticked last, he'd be at 0.