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kpenguin
2007-08-02, 07:06 AM
Physical attractiveness has always been attributed to Charisma. This has even been mentioned by the SRD:


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

However, there is one startling fact that lead me to be skeptical of this: changing your appearance does not, in fact, effect your ability score at all. You could easily transform into a hideously ugly or wondrously beautiful form through a simple Alter Self or Polymorph spell, but neither effects your Charisma score. Even an illusion, like Disguise Self, or even a simple disguise check can alter your appearance significantly, yet there is in fact no impact on your charisma score. Therefore, I have come up with three theories to explain why:

1) Physical attractiveness does affect your charisma score, but a magical effect prevents you from changing your charisma score through changing your appearance. When you cast a spell that alters your appearance significantly ugly or beautiful enough, the magic increases or decreases your natural personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, proportionately. This is a magical effect that cannot be avoided from any spell and can even effect mundane disguises. Thus, a supernatural force prevents you from becoming hideous or beautiful to change your charisma.

2) Physical attractiveness does affect your charisma score and the game designers did not put into account changes in your appearances.

3) Physical attractiveness has little to no effect on your charisma score

I believe that the last two are most likely to be true, although having a world in which the first is true would be amusing.

Attilargh
2007-08-02, 07:16 AM
Actually, there are a number of acids in the Iron Kingdoms that lower Charisma.

I'm not too fond of them, because I can't see how a Sorcerer's ability to cast spells or a Rogue's ability to fool magical items would be tied to his physical looks.

Dausuul
2007-08-02, 07:23 AM
3) Physical attractiveness has little to no effect on your charisma score

I tend to favor "little (not no) effect," since lots of stuff (glabrezu, anyone?) has very high Charisma yet looks absolutely hideous. Charisma is force of personality more than anything else. Attractive people may be more confident on average, and attractiveness might provide a certain edge, but you can have somebody who's really ugly yet still very forceful and persuasive.

nerulean
2007-08-02, 07:32 AM
Physical attractiveness depends a good deal on things other than just what you look like, though. You can be the most gorgeous supermodel in the world, but if you walk with a slouch and an expression on your face like you're sniffing dung then you're not going to look particularly good. Charisma is more knowing what to do with attractiveness than necessarily being a measure of attractiveness itself.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-02, 07:32 AM
Charisma influences attractiveness, not the other way around. Note that people can be beautiful yet cold (hence low charisma) or ugly yet charming (hence high charisma).

Fishy
2007-08-02, 07:43 AM
In the rules about non-abilities, it states that a being with no charisma score is unable to form a concept of 'self'. It is non-sentient. Likewise, non-sentient beings have no charisma score.

Consider for a moment, Madame Toussad's waxwork figure of Marilyn Monroe, (or whoever.) Even if it's not perfect, it's an extremely good representation of her physical attractiveness- but it's an object, and therefore has no charisma score.

Argent
2007-08-02, 07:47 AM
This is why I miss the Comeliness score from the old AD&D Unearthed Arcana -- by having separate scores for physical beauty and force of personality, you could better explain all those pretty-but-irritating people you seem to run into all the time.

Guinea Anubis
2007-08-02, 07:50 AM
This is why I miss the Comeliness score from the old AD&D Unearthed Arcana -- by having separate scores for physical beauty and force of personality, you could better explain all those pretty-but-irritating people you seem to run into all the time.

was about to say that my self

Selv
2007-08-02, 07:50 AM
...but you can have somebody who's really ugly yet still very forceful and persuasive.

A large fraction of famous politicians fall into this category (No-one has a Churchill poster for his pin-up qualities*), as do many scientists: Galilleo and Newton were instantly recongizable, intenationally famous and extremely polarizing. Meanwhile, the chance that you have a strong opinion about Hooke or Fermi are slim, although their work was just as important. It is hard to argue that this is because one (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&resnum=0&q=Galileo&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) is prettier than the other (http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=Fermi&btnG=Search+Images).

Conversely, it could be argued that being born and raised pretty encourages a forcefullness of character, but perhaps that's just a prejudice I have as someone who is both timid and plain.

*This being the internet, I realise that statements along the lines of "No-one is crazy enough to..." are always false.

kpenguin
2007-08-02, 08:00 AM
Newton I never saw as having a good Charisma score. He just doesn't seem like a people-person to me. Gallileo, on the other hand, I recall being a bit of a showman.

Krellen
2007-08-02, 08:20 AM
I maintain that you can be extremely Charismatic without being Attractive, but you cannot be extremely Attractive without being at least a little Charismatic; whether we like it or not, beautiful people are treated better. It's an unconscious biological prejudice, nearly impossible to combat (and rare are the individuals that would even bother to try.) Thus, in games I run, someone cannot claim their character is attractive without Charisma to back that up, but characters with high Charisma do not necessarily have to be overly beautiful.

Of course, strength of personality/confidence is, actually, a factor in attractiveness, which makes the interaction of magic rather complicated and questionable. I suppose I would say that an unCharismatic person who magically makes themselves more physically attractive would probably seem "off" to people; though physically beautiful, there's something about them that just doesn't seem right. Having not grown up attractive, they'd simply lack the natural confidence and poise someone used to being seen as attractive possesses, and that would reflect their lower Charisma score.

This of course allows the hideous-but-Charismatic outsiders and other creatures to exist.

Ethdred
2007-08-02, 08:31 AM
This then brings up the issue of how someone who is beautiful can be more intimidating than some ugly brute with his sword up your nose.

So we just try to ignore the inconsistencies and get on with the game, adding house rules and circumstance bonuses as we go

Kurald Galain
2007-08-02, 08:35 AM
This is why I miss the Comeliness score from the old AD&D Unearthed Arcana
I suppose it would be easy to houserule it in (Whitewolf has an appearance score as well), but the point is that it has little or no game effect. I think a better idea would be to grab a character portrait off the internet, of the appropriate level of attractiveness.



I maintain that you can be extremely Charismatic without being Attractive, but you cannot be extremely Attractive without being at least a little Charismatic;
Yes, but keyword being "a little". If appearance was a 3-18 score, your charisma could perhaps not be more than 6 points below your appearance, but could be any amount above it.

ALOR
2007-08-02, 08:55 AM
I'm not too fond of them, because I can't see how a Sorcerer's ability to cast spells or a Rogue's ability to fool magical items would be tied to his physical looks.

If you take into account that ones self confidence could be lowered if they were once pretty and then became disfigured i can actully see this. I would see self confidence being related to the Chr force of personality aspect. However i'm mostly playing devils advocate here. If i want my Character to be pretty i usally put a high stat and Cha but i wouldn't prevent PC's when i DM from being pretty if they put a low stat into Cha.

Charity
2007-08-02, 08:56 AM
You should choose your characters attractiveness in the same way as you choose your characters personality, style of dress, mannerisms, idiosycracies et al.
You may choose to tie your physical attractiveness to your charisma score or you may elect not to, neither effects the game balance one iota.

puppyavenger
2007-08-02, 09:08 AM
To people who say that you have to have a good charisma to be attractive what about the snobish brat princess who treats everyone under her like the scum of the earth? or the air headed princess who is basicly a walking automaton?

ranger89
2007-08-02, 09:13 AM
Charisma influences attractiveness, not the other way around. Note that people can be beautiful yet cold (hence low charisma) or ugly yet charming (hence high charisma).

Exactly. I think of Charisma as strength of personality and don't feel it has anything at all to do with attractiveness.


I maintain that you can be extremely Charismatic without being Attractive, but you cannot be extremely Attractive without being at least a little Charismatic; whether we like it or not, beautiful people are treated better.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I see an attractive woman walking across the street and don't interact with her at all, how could her Charisma score influence me at all? I find her attractive because her physical appearance is pleasing to my eye. Conversely, in the situation where I'm interacting with someone and find them increasingly attractive, their Charisma is definitely influencing my reaction to them.

I too miss the ol' Comeliness of AD&D. It's silly to link physical attractiveness to Charisma. What if I want to play an ugly sorcerer? :smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2007-08-02, 09:26 AM
If you take into account that ones self confidence could be lowered if they were once pretty and then became disfigured i can actully see this. I would see self confidence being related to the Chr force of personality aspect. However i'm mostly playing devils advocate here.

Well, yeah, obviously social skills have little if anything to do with the mystical skills of a sorcerer or of UMD. It's just that the designers of Third Edition could not add a seventh attribute for the latter, and had a pretty worthless attribute for the former, so they matched the two up. Similarly, wisdom has nothing at all to do with perception, but hey, you need the latter and you have a dump stat (for pretty much all non-divine-casters in 2E) for the former...

Krellen
2007-08-02, 09:31 AM
This then brings up the issue of how someone who is beautiful can be more intimidating than some ugly brute with his sword up your nose.
He's not?

The brute has put ranks in Intimidate; the beauty has not. And if it's the beauty, who clearly exudes an aura of confidence and competence, holding a sword up your nose, you're far more likely to believe he'll actually do it than the slobbering, slack-jawed goon. You are applying reverse rules I have not dictated; there's nothing saying the ugly brute cannot have a powerful personality, thus a middling-to-high Charisma, but if he doesn't, he isn't only ugly, he also seems ineffectual.


Yes, but keyword being "a little". If appearance was a 3-18 score, your charisma could perhaps not be more than 6 points below your appearance, but could be any amount above it.
I would agree with that. It isn't that large of an effect, but someone trying to be a supermodel with an 8 (or even 10) Charisma won't fly.


To people who say that you have to have a good charisma to be attractive what about the snobish brat princess who treats everyone under her like the scum of the earth? or the air headed princess who is basicly a walking automaton?
Have you ever met these people? And were they stunning, or simply above average? Think about the most beautiful people you've seen in your life; do they possess enough negative qualities to make you dismiss them?

For almost all people, the answer is no; and if it is, you're probably overrating their physical attractiveness. We're far more forgiving of the beautiful than the ugly. It's a simple fact of nature.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-08-02, 10:04 AM
Well, my theory on Charisma is that it increases your appearence *relative to your species*- A good example bing an 18 Charisma dwarf lady would be very nice looking... To other dwarves, but to humans? That beard's probably a turn off...

Edit: Clarification- I agree with it being more of an indicator of knowing how to flaunt what you have rather than Have what you don't. A Baalor with 30 Charisma can have a charming personality, but his "looks" aren't much of a part of it. Charisma isn't natural things- But rather, it's things like personal hygiene and fashion sense. Keep your horns nice and polished, your nails clean, chewing on some mint to freshen your breath, maybe add a few shiny gold rings on your tail. Voila, a high-charisma dragon that, to a human, still probably looks ugggly, but at least she can present it well.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-02, 10:14 AM
I maintain that you can be extremely Charismatic without being Attractive, but you cannot be extremely Attractive without being at least a little Charismatic; whether we like it or not, beautiful people are treated better.

I disagree with this contention. Consider this example: the person who has a very good physical make up, male or female, but has serious self confidence issues or doesn't care about being attractive. The quiet gal in baggy and frumpy clothing and unkept hair might be physically beatiful but she may dress, stand and speak such that no one even notices. Consider the actor who played Steve Urkel in family matters. Well formed fellow. Now, consider Urkel.

Krellen
2007-08-02, 10:20 AM
I never found Urkel repulsive, annoying, or anything of the sort. All actors - even the "ugly" ones - are more attractive than the norm, and the character of Urkel was falsely portrayed as unappealing to the cast; audiences, however, adored him. He was, by far, the most popular character on that show.

So how does he have a low Charisma again?

Peregrine
2007-08-02, 10:39 AM
Here's my take on it: Charisma is your force of personality, plain and simple. (Your self-assuredness, your confidence, your perception of yourself as a being significant and distinct from others, et cetera.)

A strong personality causes you to be more liked (or respected or even feared). A strong personality also causes you to carry yourself better, making you more attractive; in an even more indirect way, good self-image leads you to take better care of yourself, again leading to you being more attractive. In reverse, being naturally gifted with good looks is likely to cause you to have greater self-assuredness, that is, a higher Charisma. How people in general react to you is also likely to have some impact on your confidence.

So Charisma influences, and can be influenced by, how much people like you, how you move and act, and yes, how you look. But none of these things is directly measured by Charisma itself. A smear campaign, a broken neck, and a magical change of face will change all three of these things, but won't change your Charisma score one jot. (Although, you could say that it does affect it if the changes are long-term, and even mechanically represent this by not increasing your Charisma with your next level-up ability increase.)

The_Werebear
2007-08-02, 11:06 AM
-On the Topic of Intimidate-

Which would be more likely to get you to do something you don't want to do-

A) A man in armor walks into a tavern you are barkeeping at. Very muscular, got a greataxe strapped to hi back. He storms up to the bar, next veins standing out in rage. Purple faced, he yells "Gimmie what I wanna know or I hit you with axe"

-Scary, yes. However, his lack of social skills prevents him from putting an articulate argument together. You don't know what he wants. All you know is that he is threatening you. The probable reaction is that the barkeep runs for the back room to get a crossbow, while the other bar patrons begin to ready actions to thwack the thug. So while you frightened the bartender, you didn't get him to give you the information you wanted.

B) A well dressed elf walks into the same bar with the same barkeep. Smiling, he walks up to the bar and strikes up conversation with the bartender. After a few minutes, he leans in close to the bartender, motioning him in. When they are in close, he whispers, "Good evening sir, But I happen to need some information on the gangs you are harboring. I know they have probably threatened your family with pain and death if you squeal, but if you fail to talk to me, the horrors I will visit on them will make the previous threats seem like a picnic. I already have the knives I will be using to flay them selected. So stay cooperative and I won't have to make a mess." He sounds confident, and sincere

-Yeah, not so physically scary, but in a few words, he has the bartender firmly in his grasp. For all we know, the elf could be CG, and totally unwilling to harm the family, just a good liar. But knowing where to probe a target to get them to cave will make them far more cooperative than waving an axe in their face, especially in a world where people routinely go around heavily armed and armored.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-02, 12:54 PM
I never found Urkel repulsive, annoying, or anything of the sort. All actors - even the "ugly" ones - are more attractive than the norm, and the character of Urkel was falsely portrayed as unappealing to the cast; audiences, however, adored him. He was, by far, the most popular character on that show.

So how does he have a low Charisma again?

Ok, I was talking about the world inside the show. Where, within that fictional context, he does have low charisma. I should have been more specific, compare the character of 'Steve Urkel' with the character of 'Stephan Urkel' (after he goes into the 'coolness' machiene). Stephan is what the actor normally looks like btw.

The real point here is that by raw there doesn't seem to be any connection bettween physical looks and charisma. Consider the spell polymorph. Ones entire form, including species, size etc change. Charisma does not change. How then can the two be in any way linked if one can change totally and the other remain the same?

SilverClawShift
2007-08-02, 02:24 PM
Numerical stats are an abstraction of reality of course, but a they are at least a fair representation of what makes up a person mentally and physically, at least as a base.

But what makes up You, physically and mentally, has at least two aspects. There's the aspect you're born with, and the aspect you grow into.
Some people are born with a make-up that will lead to them being bigger and naturally stronger, while some are born with a make-up that will lead them to being short, skinny, or anything in between. But someone who grows up running, climbing, fighting and training physically will develope strength above what they were normally gifted with, no matter what their 'basic' strength is.
Intelligence is similar. Some people are born with minds that naturally work faster and sharper than the average, some people are just not exceptionally mentally gifted. But growing up studying and concentrating on the world around you and solving puzzles will enhance your mental state, just as growing up slapping an iron pot over your head and intentionally running into trees for entertainment will lead to... well, Homer Simpson.

Charisma is slightly more nebulous, but the way I've always thought of the charisma/attraction issue is that... your sense of self and drive and ambition are your 'base' charisma, while the way you grew up (and continue to grow as an adult, making choices in your life) will impact your 'learned' charisma. Factor in that someone who is attractive is going to have people naturally stopping to look at them for a few second longer, turning to watch them when they speak, or just being (or seeming) polite while they stare at their backside... and the end result is that someone who is more attractive will grow to become more charismatic as they adapt to living in the spotlight.
The cause and effect can't be reversed there. It's not that having higher charisma lends to being more attractive, it's that being more attractive promotes higher charisma. To an extent at least.

As for as "The beautiful princess is a total shrew" issue, that's where the abstraction part comes into play. You can be able to bench press 250 pounds but still throw a weak punch (Str), you can do cross-country running for 4 hours straight but still get sick from someone sneezing near you (Con), you can be able to do advanced arithmetic in your head but still have a crappy memory for anything else (Int)...
And (Cha)? Well, you can be very un-persuasive and rude, but still have a very strong sense of who you are and what you want out of life (rich princess).

Hunter Noventa
2007-08-02, 02:26 PM
I actually came up with something of a houserule for a 3.5E Comeliness statistic.

Basically, your comeliness is the average of your charisma and your highest physical score, or whichever score you choose. So if you have a charisma of 18 and your highest physical score is your dexterity at 14, your comeliness is by default a 16. Your comeliness score has a bonus just like any other, but it only applies to the first charisma based check made against a "compatible" target, allowing you to make a first impression, but little else.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-02, 02:35 PM
I actually came up with something of a houserule for a 3.5E Comeliness statistic.

Basically, your comeliness is the average of your charisma and your highest physical score, or whichever score you choose. So if you have a charisma of 18 and your highest physical score is your dexterity at 14, your comeliness is by default a 16. Your comeliness score has a bonus just like any other, but it only applies to the first charisma based check made against a "compatible" target, allowing you to make a first impression, but little else.

See, here's the thing though, if I have a high CH then I'm going to have at least a pretty good Comeliness score. Even an 18 and a 2 (your highest clumsy near parapalegic prone to colds score) is going to have a 10 to looking pretty. I dunno about you, but 2 or less in all my physical stats does not lead me to think that the character stands a chance in hell of being average looking.

Such a mechanic seems also to eliminate the possibility of a player with a high Cha who wants their character to be ugly. A hideous looking thing but with a silver tounge is not unheard of...

Swordguy
2007-08-02, 03:28 PM
BoEF includes the Attractiveness Attribute, as well as how to apply it to skills and powers (Nymphs, for example, have a lot of abilities now keyed off Att instead of Cha).

One of the better things about that book, really. The trick is to apply it a LOT, so unattractive people end up getting ignored or actively shunned, or else PCs will tend to use it as just another dump stat.

TheAlmightyOne
2007-08-02, 05:36 PM
In the campaign we used to do we decided that a female characters charisma score affected the size of her breasts. This was mainly to stop the warlock from hitting on the cleric every 5 minutes.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-02, 05:39 PM
In the campaign we used to do we decided that a female characters charisma score affected the size of her breasts. minutes.

...
Ugh. :mad:

Jasdoif
2007-08-02, 06:09 PM
Charisma is fairly clear, it's the ability to influence others. Through either appearence or demeanor. Its components are a lot-lessed defined, however.

It's also got the role of the "any-stat" as far as sorceror casting, undead Concentrating and any monster attack DC based on an ability it doesn't have. That one's harder to explain, unless it's because Charisma was of very little use in 2nd edition and this was an attempt to correct that.



...
Ugh. :mad:QFT.

Dhavaer
2007-08-02, 06:13 PM
In the campaign we used to do we decided that a female characters charisma score affected the size of her breasts. This was mainly to stop the warlock from hitting on the cleric every 5 minutes.

Could you explain how that worked? How did it stop the warlock?

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-08-02, 06:16 PM
In the campaign we used to do we decided that a female characters charisma score affected the size of her breasts. This was mainly to stop the warlock from hitting on the cleric every 5 minutes.

Not good. Not good at all; in either case. I mean no offense, but there has to be a better way to deal with something like that. I play a female Sorceress (albeit a Fae with 26 CHA) and she is represented as being petite in the uhh... chestal area. Breast size does not = physical attactiveness. Just like a guy's trouser titan does not = physical attactiveness. There are rules in the BoEF for Physical Attractiveness scores. It is a dynamic score that can help to impact both positive and negative modifiers on CHA based checks. That may be something to look at (in a manner of speaking). :smallsmile:

Bassetking
2007-08-02, 06:25 PM
In the campaign we used to do we decided that a female characters charisma score affected the size of her breasts. This was mainly to stop the warlock from hitting on the cleric every 5 minutes.
__________________
...What?

Stephen_E
2007-08-02, 06:27 PM
-On the Topic of Intimidate-

Which would be more likely to get you to do something you don't want to do-

A) A man in armor walks into a tavern you are barkeeping at. Very muscular, got a greataxe strapped to hi back. He storms up to the bar, next veins standing out in rage. Purple faced, he yells "Gimmie what I wanna know or I hit you with axe"

-Scary, yes. However, his lack of social skills prevents him from putting an articulate argument together. You don't know what he wants. All you know is that he is threatening you. The probable reaction is that the barkeep runs for the back room to get a crossbow, while the other bar patrons begin to ready actions to thwack the thug. So while you frightened the bartender, you didn't get him to give you the information you wanted.

B) A well dressed elf walks into the same bar with the same barkeep. Smiling, he walks up to the bar and strikes up conversation with the bartender. After a few minutes, he leans in close to the bartender, motioning him in. When they are in close, he whispers, "Good evening sir, But I happen to need some information on the gangs you are harboring. I know they have probably threatened your family with pain and death if you squeal, but if you fail to talk to me, the horrors I will visit on them will make the previous threats seem like a picnic. I already have the knives I will be using to flay them selected. So stay cooperative and I won't have to make a mess." He sounds confident, and sincere

-Yeah, not so physically scary, but in a few words, he has the bartender firmly in his grasp. For all we know, the elf could be CG, and totally unwilling to harm the family, just a good liar. But knowing where to probe a target to get them to cave will make them far more cooperative than waving an axe in their face, especially in a world where people routinely go around heavily armed and armored.

RL, example A) is generally found to be more intimidating.
Look at bank robbers. The person who comes in with the shotgun puts munerous people into therapy and the main delay to them getting their demands met is the paralysation effect caused bt sheer terror.

The quiet person with a note to the teller rquires ahhigh degree of skill on the part of the note-taker (lots of ranks in intimidate) to work, and works in part because 1) Banks instruct their employers not to resist as staff policy, and 2) they only have to intimidate 1 person, so less chance of hitting a hero. They also are far less likely to leave the teller traumatised.

Stephen

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-08-02, 06:35 PM
RL, example A) is generally found to be more intimidating.
Look at bank robbers. The person who comes in with the shotgun puts munerous people into therapy and the main delay to them getting their demands met is the paralysation effect caused bt sheer terror.

The quiet person with a note to the teller rquires ahhigh degree of skill on the part of the note-taker (lots of ranks in intimidate) to work, and works in part because 1) Banks instruct their employers not to resist as staff policy, and 2) they only have to intimidate 1 person, so less chance of hitting a hero. They also are far less likely to leave the teller traumatised.

Stephen

But the skills being used is much more well defined; bluff and diplomacy. Physical attactiveness should not impact that as much as it does, according to the rules. True, I would be more intimidated from the burly warrior screaming than from the slender elf screaming. Both may have an incredibly high CHA score. But if it comes down to the following:

7 ft tall 300 lb ugly as sin Orcish barbarian raging and screaming and threatening your space attempting to demoralize you
5 ft tall 85 lb beautiful beyond anything Faerie sorceress screaming and hollering threatening your space and attempting to demoralize you.

It is too dependant on the skill check. There should be a + or - modifier based on the characters appearance. the Orc, with a penalty to attractiveness should be scarier than a Faerie with an incredibly high attractiveness. The faerie is going to make it by the numbers every time, if they are the same level and have the same number of ranks in the intimidate skill. It just seems a little broken to me.

Stephen_E
2007-08-02, 06:40 PM
The biggest trouble with "Comliness" is how you handle the generating of it.
If you make it a roll do you allow it to be freely traded with the other rolls, because if so the main effect is that it becomes the new dump stat.

I like the idea of having comeliness but it needs a mechanic. I'd suggest having it act as an "aid" to non fear based Cha skill checks, and allow it to be substituted for Cha in initial interaction Cha skill checks.

Calculating the Comeliness score:
Either -
1) Let the player choose whatever Comeliness score you want (3-18), or

2) Roll 4d6 best 3 specific for the stat. You may trade it for a better roll in your general "stat pool", but not a worse one.
Example - You roll for your Character. 16, 8, 12, 17, 14, 7. You then roll 13 for your Comeliness. You may swap your Comeliness roll for the 14, 16 or 17 available for your other attributes. You can't choose to swap it ofr the 7,8 or 12.

Stephen

Dhavaer
2007-08-02, 06:44 PM
How about generating it differently from other stats, so as to avoid making it a dump stat? Start it at 10, add Con and Cha modifiers, add racial modifier, you have you Com ability.

Stephen_E
2007-08-02, 06:46 PM
7 ft tall 300 lb ugly as sin Orcish barbarian raging and screaming and threatening your space attempting to demoralize you
5 ft tall 85 lb beautiful beyond anything Faerie sorceress screaming and hollering threatening your space and attempting to demoralize you.

It is too dependant on the skill check. There should be a + or - modifier based on the characters appearance. the Orc, with a penalty to attractiveness should be scarier than a Faerie with an incredibly high attractiveness. The faerie is going to make it by the numbers every time, if they are the same level and have the same number of ranks in the intimidate skill. It just seems a little broken to me.

I'm sorry but I stop checking at 7 ft tall, 300lb screaming and threatening my space. How good looking they are simply doesn't come into the picture much either way. It's very much the way I treat a large bat been swung at my head. I react to the bat coming at my head, not the artwork on the bat.

Stephen

LoopyZebra
2007-08-02, 06:47 PM
...Just like a guy's trouser titan does not = physical attactiveness...

One time, a player decided that his character's Charisma was so high that he had two.

Yeah... It's still a joke at the table. Ironically, his charisma was only 15.

For the topic at hand though, physical attractiveness is only a possible part of Charisma. A person's persuasiveness does not have to rely on their looks, and looks do not make a person a diplomat. I haven't seen that many "ugly" characters though, low charisma or not, so it's kind of a moot point.

The_Werebear
2007-08-02, 07:00 PM
I'm sorry but I stop checking at 7 ft tall, 300lb screaming and threatening my space. How good looking they are simply doesn't come into the picture much either way. It's very much the way I treat a large bat been swung at my head. I react to the bat coming at my head, not the artwork on the bat.

Stephen

The point I am trying to make is that, in situation A, you may be too frightened to cooperate. A better situation may be comparing someone who runs into a bank screaming and waving a gun (Provokes chaos, running in terror, confusion, and "heroes," but little quiet handing over of cash) versus someone who walks in and quietly warns the teller that he has a gun and she will die if she doesn't start passing cash to him.

Of course, this may get into more tactics and ranks in intimidate than charisma, so I am willing to drop it.

Sajek
2007-08-02, 07:01 PM
I never use Charisma=beauty in my games. Anyone who thinks so should remember that a Beholder has Charisma 18.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm_gallery/Beholder.jpg
You're telling me you want to hit that?

Demented
2007-08-02, 07:55 PM
[Beholder]

You're telling me you want to hit that?

Let's put it this way:
It has 18 Charisma.
Two diplomacy checks later and I won't have a choice.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-02, 08:35 PM
...
Ugh. :mad:
QFT again.

Physical attractiveness is not the same as pretty.
If I meet a trashy raver girl who clearly has had massive amounts of plastic surgery, I find her appearance unattractive because the idea of artificiality is unpleasant to me.

By conventional standards of prettiness she would be considered "good-looking" but attractiveness is about attraction.


Male characters don't take charisma penalties when talking to straight males.
You can be physically attractive and be "ugly" and not romantically/sexually attractive.
Think of a villain with some horrible blade-scar across his face, if he's speaking to mercenaries who thrive on fighting it probably attracts them hugely, because it makes him look tough and experienced; it's also intimidating and projects someone who's seen tough combat, so that carries over to others.


As for why Alter Self doesn't change that; besides rulekeeping obnoxiousness of players saying, after every polymorph, "I think Catgirls are hawt! I want a charisma bonus!", I think the best explanation is that you only can derive charisma from your experience; you don't "carry" a Succubus' body like a true Succubus, and it doesn't work naturally. Charisma is an inherent thing, and confidence trumps good looks in determining attractiveness.


Attractiveness/Comeliness stats are almost universally a mistake, as you either have a pointless stat or a universe where physical beauty is given bizarre and exaggerated importance. I really, reallly, really, don't want to be taken to the hospital for telling one of my female players that they're weak unless their character is really pretty.

Also, it comes from the Book of Erotic Fantasy: A good indicator that it's a bad idea.

Chronos
2007-08-02, 09:05 PM
Physical attractiveness isn't all physical. A person might have great body proportions, flawless skin, etc., but terrible posture and an ugly facial expression. Now, if that same person stands up straight, walks confidently, and smiles, his or her attractiveness might go up considerably. To the extent that Charisma affects physical attractiveness, it's through things like facial expression and posture. Even if I polymorphed myself into Johnny Depp, I'd still walk the same way I do now, carry myself the same way, show the same facial expressions, etc., so I'd still use my Charisma, not Depp's, and ladies wouldn't start throwing themselves at me all of a sudden.

Belteshazzar
2007-08-02, 09:18 PM
I never use Charisma=beauty in my games. Anyone who thinks so should remember that a Beholder has Charisma 18.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm_gallery/Beholder.jpg
You're telling me you want to hit that?

Something will, otherwise where do baby Beholders come from. I know beholders don't work like that (usually) but just pointing out that other races will have very different opinions of physical beauty. However, you are correct in that CHA does not equal Hot

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-02, 09:31 PM
Newton I never saw as having a good Charisma score. He just doesn't seem like a people-person to me. Gallileo, on the other hand, I recall being a bit of a showman.

Newton was a complete nerd. Probably the first. He had crumbs in his wig and jam on his... whatever he wore.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-02, 09:32 PM
Something will, otherwise where do baby Beholders come from. I know beholders don't work like that (usually) but just pointing out that other races will have very different opinions of physical beauty. However, you are correct in that CHA does not equal Hot

Illithids have high charisma scores, but don't reproduce sexually.

Demented
2007-08-02, 10:39 PM
Illithids may not reproduce sexually, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how they appear to eachother.
...I'm not sure whether the smiley for that should be ':smallwink:' or ':smalleek:'.


QFT again.
[...]
Attractiveness/Comeliness stats are almost universally a mistake, as you either have a pointless stat or a universe where physical beauty is given bizarre and exaggerated importance. I really, reallly, really, don't want to be taken to the hospital for telling one of my female players that they're weak unless their character is really pretty.

'Course, for fantasy in visual medium, relating attractiveness to effectiveness is more of a standard.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-08-02, 11:30 PM
I usually base physical attraction on if the person wants them to be physically attractive. Luckily, most of the characters I play with are mature about it and don't always end up being the worlds most stunninly gorgeous humanoid. One example was one of my female friends playing a character that was my character's wife. Her charisma score was 6, but she was beautiful. We just agreed she liked to start fights, curse, spit and was an upmost b*tch.

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-08-02, 11:32 PM
physical attractiveness is only one possible aspect of one's charisma. your ability to manipulate a person can depend on alot of things, and physical attractiveness happens to be one of them. when creating your character, you should probably determine why you have this power over people. mabye you have a silver tongue, mabye you are gorgeous. normally, it's a mixture of a whole bunch of factors

Demented
2007-08-03, 12:24 AM
The difference between low and high Charisma and how it relates to attractiveness, as regards women:

Ugly, High Charisma: She bluffs you into bed. You didn't know tumble checks could do that! You're married within the month.

Pretty, Low Charisma: You bluff her into bed. Congratulations, you are, in fact, virile; pass go and collect one shotgun marriage.

The difference between low and high Charisma and how it relates to attractiveness, as regards men:

Ugly, High Charisma: He bluffs the barmaid into bed. Things work out between them; you're on the lookout for a new arcane caster.

Ugly, Low Charisma: The barmaid bluffs him into bed. Turns out she's a Succubus; you're on the lookout for a new melee tank.

Pretty, Any Charisma: N/A

Krasus
2007-08-03, 01:24 AM
One of the original statements/questions was why there was no CHA change when using a change self or polymorph spell. I believe ArmorArmadillo was correct, in part, when saying: "Charisma is an inherent thing, and confidence trumps good looks in determining attractiveness." Changing your appearence doesn't grant you the force or personality or aura of confidence people of that standard of looking normally have. Charisma does include your physical appearence, but changing your appearence won't change your charisma because the way you carry yourself is so very... off from what would be expected of that look that you cancel out any bonus you would get by that aura of... offness.

Leon
2007-08-03, 03:44 AM
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

the beauty of a Anti-Magic cone



You're telling me you want to hit that?

With a Stick, repeadedly till its dead

Nero24200
2007-08-03, 05:47 AM
I really dislike the idea of tying Charisma to physical appearence. Mostly for the simple point that, should a soreror or bard suddently get a horrific scar on their face from a fight, why should that make their spells weaker? Or hamper a paladin's divine grace? His god shouldn't really show him less favour since he/she doesn't look as good anymore, so why should his powers weaken?

Personally, when it comes to how good a character looks, I simply just describe my character's appearence and let the other players and DM decide if their PC's or NPC's find him/her attractive.

Eldred
2007-08-03, 06:24 AM
...
Ugh. :mad:

QFT again.


With a Stick, repeadedly till its dead

Damn, I was gonna say that! I was too late :smallfrown:

---

Generally, in my campaigns I've always stated that Charisma has no direct relevance to physical attractiveness. Personality is a much more powerful indicator of Charisma, IMO. Hence, someone with a 6 Charisma could be really good-looking, but be so ignorant and selfish that people don't get along with her. In the same sense, someone with 16 Charisma could be unattractive, and yet be able to inspire armies and make speeches like no other man.

The problem then is how to decide how attractive a character is. Usually, I allow the players to decide, but then generally the players prefer a good-looking character over an unattractive one.

kpenguin
2007-08-03, 06:33 AM
One of the original statements/questions was why there was no CHA change when using a change self or polymorph spell. I believe ArmorArmadillo was correct, in part, when saying: "Charisma is an inherent thing, and confidence trumps good looks in determining attractiveness." Changing your appearence doesn't grant you the force or personality or aura of confidence people of that standard of looking normally have. Charisma does include your physical appearence, but changing your appearence won't change your charisma because the way you carry yourself is so very... off from what would be expected of that look that you cancel out any bonus you would get by that aura of... offness.

Fine, but what about a good disguise check. Presumably, a master of disguise would carry about himself the same way the person he's pretending the be would. What if he impersonates someone very attractive?

Yeril
2007-08-03, 06:39 AM
I usualy play charisma as a vauge hint at attractiveness, but not much more than that.

The 7 str 8 con 11 cha wizard Isn't particuarly going to be a looker compared to the Well muscled, lithe, handsome prince charming paladin with 16 str 17 con 15 dex and a whopping 19 charisma

just my Two Copper peices


Fine, but what about a good disguise check. Presumably, a master of disguise would carry about himself the same way the person he's pretending the be would. What if he impersonates someone very attractive?

Id personaly give him a bonus to charisma when dealing with some skills.
eg. Seducing somone

In the same way id give a guy dressed as a noble a + to dipolomacy to people who think (and respect the fact) that he is a noble.

dr.cello
2007-08-03, 07:27 AM
Charisma is, I think, the most frequent dump stat in the game, and was probably even more so before 3e (where no spellcasting classes required it.) So it has a sort of hazy area of definition. They wanted a stat which had a real, tangible effect on gameplay at least somewhere. So they made it about . . . Force of Personality. And, oh yeah, I guess it's about being persuasive, as well. But mostly it's about . . . Force of Personality.

Really, though, most of the abilities don't make a terrible lot of sense when you really think about it. Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble are part of the same skill which gives you Open Lock and Sleight of Hand. Now, I don't know about you, but when I work on flexibility, I don't suddenly find that my fingers are more nimble. The reverse is also not exactly true. And Wisdom? So you're telling me that the ability which allows you to see and hear things is also the one which is tied to your ability to resist magical assault, as well as allowing me to get along well in the wild, earn a living, treat injuries, and tell when someone is lying? Really?

Back to charisma. High charisma is commonly assumed to mean "pretty until proven otherwise." It just feels right. But let's face it: most people, when designing characters, are designing someone they think is cool in one sense or another. While there are exceptions, your average D&D character will almost always have the exact appearance the player wants. Even the ones that are unattractive are probably that way because the character wanted it to be that way.

I think that if pinned into a corner and threatened enough, charisma would be what people might term 'raw charisma' in the real world. It's a sheer force of personality. It's why it works for Use Magic Device and sorcerer or bard spells: magic can sort of latch on to your personality and shape itself around it. Your personality alone is enough to make the laws of physics shut up and sit down. Oh, sure, it does those other things, like bluff and diplomacy. And a force of personality could be good at things like that, too. This is why you have a Glabrezu who has a higher charisma than the homecoming queen--he's certainly not pretty, and he might not actually be better at telling a lie, but his sheer force of personality makes you believe what he says.

Disguise initially seems to present a problem here, but as a skill it's actually fairly similar to bluff. You aren't just making the costume, you're acting a certain part. Acting right (usually by acting confident) will make it a lot more believable than looking perfect (though looking right is also essential.)

As for the attractiveness bit, in my experience there aren't very many people who are legitimately unattractive, and a pretty big part of me finding someone attractive involves how they dress, do their hair, and carry themselves. (There are quite a few people I'd describe as attractive, and a very few for whom I would use words like 'beautiful', one of them, naturally, being me. Ah-ha. Ah-ha.)

Ivellios
2007-08-03, 07:59 AM
Physical attractiveness does not in ANY way effect your charisma score.

You can alter your appearance all you want, your character still won't be charismatic. (look at Eberron. the undying couniler is the ugliest SOB I've ever seen, but his charisma score is 30 somethin'.)

Charisma does however, limit how attractive your character can be. A character with a humiliatingly low charisma score can never be a supermodel. The low charisma score limits physical attractiveness. An epic level sorcerer/bard on the other hand, can still be ugly, but also has a much, much higher limit on how physically attractive that character can be.

So, if you're making a new character, and deciding for role playing purposes (and lets face it, that's the only place physical attractiveness would really apply) how your character looks. If you want a good looking character, the DM has the right to say "No, you can't do that. Charisma is your dump stat. You're ugly and stuck with it." But the higher your charisma score, the more physically attractive you are allowed to make your character. And, if you raise your Charisma score later, you can decide what it does to highten your characters appearance. If your score, by some magical means happens to drop, however you have no choice but to decrease your character's physical attractiveness.

Sajek
2007-08-03, 09:07 AM
...where do baby Beholders come from. I know beholders don't work like that (usually) but just pointing out that other races will have very different opinions of physical beauty.

I was always under the impression that they reproduce either magicaly or asexualy, due to the apparent lack of gender and of accompanying utilities.

Telonius
2007-08-03, 11:35 AM
Mechanics of charisma devolving into mechanics of beholder reproduction? ::fails Sanity check::
:smalleek:

Seriously though... I've gone back and forth about the charisma as attractiveness vs. charisma as force of personality. IMO, the source of the whole problem is the half-orc's -2 to Charisma. I personally think this is a terrible idea mechanically, and leads to this sort of argument. I don't see any reason that half-orcs should have less of a "force of personality" than any other character. (+2 strength is not worth -2 in two other stats, either, but that's another topic). So, why the -2? The only reason I can come up with, is that orcs are ugly. Bad, bad move by the game designers.

I do think that situational modifiers have a part to play here. Just as a thought experiment, say we have a big powerful Barbarian and a skinny, weak Warlock, with equal charisma scores, and equal number of skill ranks in Intimidate. They each pull a sword on a person, and threaten them. The Barbarian is clearly much more of a threat with a sword than the Warlock. But by RAW their results will be the same. So what would I do differently? Add in bonuses or penalties, depending on how credible the threat is.

With regards to physical attractiveness... there are probably only a very few things that it would influence, mechanically. Diplomacy is the only one I can think of. What effects and how much? One, that I can see. A physically attractive person might have a bonus to affecting an NPC's attitude.

So, here's my possible mechanic. Attractiveness is determined at character creation, by the roll of a d12. Result:
1 = -5 on diplomacy checks made to influence attitude.
2 = -4
3 = -3
4 = -2
5 = -1
6 = no effect
7 = +1
8 = +2
9 = +3
10 = +4
11 = +5
12 = +6

Half-orcs lose the -2 Cha penalty, and instead get a -2 to their attractiveness score. Other things (glamer, disguise, alter self, etc) can have an effect on the score. Yes, this is human-centric and doesn't take into account half-orcs being attractive to other half-orcs, etc; but it makes a bit more sense than what's there now.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-03, 12:12 PM
Mechanics of charisma devolving into mechanics of beholder reproduction? ::fails Sanity check::
:smalleek:

Seriously though... I've gone back and forth about the charisma as attractiveness vs. charisma as force of personality. IMO, the source of the whole problem is the half-orc's -2 to Charisma. I personally think this is a terrible idea mechanically, and leads to this sort of argument. I don't see any reason that half-orcs should have less of a "force of personality" than any other character. (+2 strength is not worth -2 in two other stats, either, but that's another topic). So, why the -2? The only reason I can come up with, is that orcs are ugly. Bad, bad move by the game designers.

I do think that situational modifiers have a part to play here. Just as a thought experiment, say we have a big powerful Barbarian and a skinny, weak Warlock, with equal charisma scores, and equal number of skill ranks in Intimidate. They each pull a sword on a person, and threaten them. The Barbarian is clearly much more of a threat with a sword than the Warlock. But by RAW their results will be the same. So what would I do differently? Add in bonuses or penalties, depending on how credible the threat is.

With regards to physical attractiveness... there are probably only a very few things that it would influence, mechanically. Diplomacy is the only one I can think of. What effects and how much? One, that I can see. A physically attractive person might have a bonus to affecting an NPC's attitude.

So, here's my possible mechanic. Attractiveness is determined at character creation, by the roll of a d12. Result:
1 = -5 on diplomacy checks made to influence attitude.
2 = -4
3 = -3
4 = -2
5 = -1
6 = no effect
7 = +1
8 = +2
9 = +3
10 = +4
11 = +5
12 = +6

Half-orcs lose the -2 Cha penalty, and instead get a -2 to their attractiveness score. Other things (glamer, disguise, alter self, etc) can have an effect on the score. Yes, this is human-centric and doesn't take into account half-orcs being attractive to other half-orcs, etc; but it makes a bit more sense than what's there now.
No offense, but this is exactly the kind of use of the "attractiveness" score that should be avoided. At best, being very attractive might grant a small circumstance bonus (+1/+2) in a bluff or diplomacy check against a romantically compatible person.

Also, this kind of use completely ignores the idea that someone could be too smart to just give in to physical attractiveness; a Wis 18 Cleric is probably able to resist charms.

And do you really need to be trying to go through every MM illustration and deciding how "attractive" they are? Honestly I don't condone any system that tries to codify "My Sorceress is hot, she gets a diplomacy bonus" into a legitimate rule.

Telonius
2007-08-03, 12:51 PM
No offense, but this is exactly the kind of use of the "attractiveness" score that should be avoided. At best, being very attractive might grant a small circumstance bonus (+1/+2) in a bluff or diplomacy check against a romantically compatible person.

Also, this kind of use completely ignores the idea that someone could be too smart to just give in to physical attractiveness; a Wis 18 Cleric is probably able to resist charms.

This would be intended only for the "random NPC" attitude influencing and first impressions, not other uses of the diplomacy skill. If you're negotiating with a Wis 18 Cleric, it would be either opposed diplomacy or bluff vs. sense motive, depending on the situation. Attractiveness wouldn't play a part. Attractiveness (or lack thereof) does play a part in first impressions, even with real-life Wis 18 people. But that (dis)advantage can be lost quickly if anything more than a brief interaction is had.



And do you really need to be trying to go through every MM illustration and deciding how "attractive" they are? Honestly I don't condone any system that tries to codify "My Sorceress is hot, she gets a diplomacy bonus" into a legitimate rule.
No, monsters wouldn't get an attractiveness score, only PCs (and statted-up NPCs) would.

Matthew
2007-08-03, 09:23 PM
Ah, but remember. Half Orcs are descended from Orcs, and in LotR's style, they have a weak force of personality, easily subsumed by their dark master...

That's my view, anyway.

Demented
2007-08-03, 09:36 PM
:thog: thog kill you!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: yes, thog kill you!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: thog do too!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: thog don't?

:haley: No, you don't!

:thog: ooh, okay. let's have ice cream!

:vaarsuvius: Wasn't that a bluff check?

:haley: Shh, don't tell him.

dr.cello
2007-08-03, 09:40 PM
That would be more like weak will. But they don't seem to be very strong individuals in the sense of having a lot of, well, individual personality. Orcs have a minus to charisma because they're not notoriously good leaders; they do a lot of petty infighting and 'I's da strongest' fights.

You might be able to make a similar argument for dwarves, actually. This is something I'm completely making up, but dwarves, especially given their lawful nature, are more focused on dwarf society than on individualism, so, on the whole, they don't have quite as powerful a force of personality. This is different from willpower--it's easy to imagine a dwarf with strong will/wisdom (clerics, and so forth), but less so a dwarf who has the sort of charisma that makes him a compelling leader.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 09:43 PM
:thog: thog kill you!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: yes, thog kill you!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: thog do too!

:haley: No you don't!

:thog: thog don't?

:haley: No, you don't!

:thog: ooh, okay. let's have ice cream!

:vaarsuvius: Wasn't that a bluff check?

:haley: Shh, don't tell him.

You can do this if bluff check > Sense motive check +50.

Starsinger
2007-08-03, 09:43 PM
Seriously though... I've gone back and forth about the charisma as attractiveness vs. charisma as force of personality. IMO, the source of the whole problem is the half-orc's -2 to Charisma. I personally think this is a terrible idea mechanically, and leads to this sort of argument. I don't see any reason that half-orcs should have less of a "force of personality" than any other character. (+2 strength is not worth -2 in two other stats, either, but that's another topic). So, why the -2? The only reason I can come up with, is that orcs are ugly. Bad, bad move by the game designers.

Don't forget that Dwarves get a -2 to Charisma because they're cranky... and being grouchy means you have a poor force of personality.

Matthew
2007-08-03, 10:42 PM
That would be more like weak will.

Yeah, I should probably fess up and say I think Charisma should have an impact on Will Saves. Certainly, there's an argument to be made.

dr.cello
2007-08-04, 01:47 AM
Yeah, I should probably fess up and say I think Charisma should have an impact on Will Saves. Certainly, there's an argument to be made.

You could definitely make the argument. I think it really is best that they just keep it with one stat, though. You could probably argue that Con and Str should both affect fortitude saves. You're right, though. It almost makes more sense that someone with a stronger personality and sense of individuality would be better at shrugging off mental attacks than someone who is intuitive and perceptive. I guess you could call Charisma more of the "offensive" stat and Wisdom the "defensive" stat, similar to how Con is "defensive" and Str is "offensive."

Demented
2007-08-04, 02:15 AM
That would be more like weak will.

Oh, totally. Thus V pointing out that it was a Bluff check (opposed by thog's sense motive + WIS) as opposed to a Diplomacy check (opposed by thog's diplomacy + CHA). ...It seemed simple at the time.

It always did seem ironic that Charisma could occasionally best be expressed as willpower, and yet it's Wisdom that gets the will save. Perhaps Charisma should instead influence SR...

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-04, 05:10 AM
I tend to favor "little (not no) effect," since lots of stuff (glabrezu, anyone?) has very high Charisma yet looks absolutely hideous. Charisma is force of personality more than anything else. Attractive people may be more confident on average, and attractiveness might provide a certain edge, but you can have somebody who's really ugly yet still very forceful and persuasive.

Glabrezu still has human-ish hands, and gets all those Drow Priestesses hot and bothered. With equal Charisma, is the lard-ass Nalfeshnee (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0504iw_nalfeshnee.jpg)...:smalleek: :smallyuk: I dunno, maybe the nipple ring gives him a Circumstance bonus or something.

Eldred
2007-08-04, 10:11 AM
I've just found in the Player's Handbook on page 110, under the "Looks" subheading:


Characters with high Charisma scores tend to be better looking than those with low Charisma scores, though a character with high Charisma could have strange looks that give him or her a sort of exotic beauty.

Seems fair enough. Atleast it's the most solid piece of information about looks and Charisma from the three core books.

Squatting_Monk
2007-08-04, 11:35 AM
I guess you could call Charisma more of the "offensive" stat and Wisdom the "defensive" stat, similar to how Con is "defensive" and Str is "offensive."

I agree. In fact, the mental stats are analogous to the physical ones in function. WIS involves resisting mental influences (be they manipulation or magical befuddling), just as CON involves resisting fatigue, poison, disease, etc. INT involves dodging puzzles and mental obstacles just as DEX involves dodging blows or finessing objects. CHA, similarly involves the force of personality, analogous to STR's muscular force.

Physical attractiveness is indeed an element of CHA, though how attractive you are does not necessarily define your CHA. If you are trying to force your will on others (say, through manipulation), the boon of attractiveness surely makes getting others to pay attention to you that much easier. Likewise, someone who is downright ugly may have a harder time getting others to trust him. However, the ugly person may have just as high a CHA as the attractive person, and this means that the ugly person relies much less on his looks and much more on the persuasiveness of his argument.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-04, 11:55 AM
Physical attractiveness tends to draw compliments. Compliments add to self esteem and foster confidence. This, in turn, creates a stronger personality. This attitude and force of personality lingers when you change forms.

Squatting_Monk
2007-08-04, 12:08 PM
True, but when one changes to a more beautiful form, this doesn't increase the CHA. That's because, as others have said, you don't "fit" the form. Perhaps that's why polymorphing gives a bonus to Disguise rather than being fool-proof. On a related note, it is appropriate that CHA applies to Disguise, since a person with a more defined sense of self could more easily pull off a disguise, even if the form changed into is far less attractive than his true form.

Oh, and before I forget...


...
Ugh. :mad:

QFT again.

Rare Pink Leech
2007-08-05, 11:30 AM
Yeah, I should probably fess up and say I think Charisma should have an impact on Will Saves. Certainly, there's an argument to be made.

In my games, Charisma is the attribute that modifies Will saves, not Wisdom. It makes much more sense to me.

You can also count me in the camp that thinks Charisma does not affect appearance whatsoever. You can have homely looking people who feel very trustworthy, likeable, and persuasive, just as you can have people who are smoking hot who have zero personality and couldn't convince me to do anything (I'm looking at you, Paris Hilton).

Krellen
2007-08-05, 05:04 PM
You can have homely looking people who feel very trustworthy, likeable, and persuasive, just as you can have people who are smoking hot who have zero personality and couldn't convince me to do anything (I'm looking at you, Paris Hilton).
You think Paris Hilton is "smoking hot"?

I think that, there, is the problem. People don't even know what beauty is.

DiscipleofBob
2007-08-05, 06:33 PM
My biggest problem with Charisma:

One character in the Eberron campaign I'm running has a decent Charisma. He has a high Charisma because he is a Wilder, and thus his powers are based off of his Charisma stat.

He is not social. He is not diplomatic. Heck, he doesn't even roleplay well when a hot woman at a bar comes up and flirts with him. In fact, when said woman pickpockets 30gp from him, and then is willing to negotiate to return said gp, he blows her up, literally.

This does not reflect a character with a high Charisma in any circumstance. Yet whenever he has to make a Charisma-based check he does exceptionally well due to a high Cha mod.

WhammeWhamme
2007-08-05, 08:39 PM
My biggest problem with Charisma:

One character in the Eberron campaign I'm running has a decent Charisma. He has a high Charisma because he is a Wilder, and thus his powers are based off of his Charisma stat.

He is not social. He is not diplomatic. Heck, he doesn't even roleplay well when a hot woman at a bar comes up and flirts with him. In fact, when said woman pickpockets 30gp from him, and then is willing to negotiate to return said gp, he blows her up, literally.

This does not reflect a character with a high Charisma in any circumstance. Yet whenever he has to make a Charisma-based check he does exceptionally well due to a high Cha mod.

I'd say it could. He should be scary. Where a low charisma character might threaten the same, he's likely to be believed. Simply not killing you feels like a favour, because the character is that menacing even when he's laughing at a bad joke... because it's that kind of laugh that only a truly cold, dead bastard who could gut you like a fish has...

He's pretty much evil and asocial... but Dark Lords get people to want to cooperate with them without being smarmy.


Best example of what I'm trying to get at is Voldemort in the Goblet of Fire movie, at the end. The actor almost (not quite) keeps you spellbound with the sheer confidence and power of his character. He's a freakish abomination in appearance, but you can buy that people aren't going to resist him.

Or Darth Vader, actually.

Or Hannibal Lecter. Lecter is what I'd point to for a 'realistic' example of a high level rogue... a renaissance man who, imprisoned, has the force of personality to make a man commit suicide because Lecter wants him to. (I shoud clarify - EPIC level rogue...)

Lecter gets back to another point: He actually IS quite good looking. So were Anakin Skywalker and Tom Riddle. The latter two may have been disfigured, but they did not lose Charisma. (Heck, apparently Vader grew a Charisma score sometime after being left a bleeding nub)


Summary: Mr. Surly has a high charisma. That does not mean he has to be likable. Captain Carrot is not the only model for high charisma. Being Chaotic Evil, or Lawful Ruthless, does not stop you from being charismatic.

You run the game. Start having people be scared of the character. Clearly he's not 'sexy' charismatic (but if he wanted sex, he could get it.), but the character should be commanding.

Yes, you'd rather the players sounded exactly like the characters do. Try to pretty it up in your head, rather than expect more than a bunch of, well, D&D players, are likely to be able to deliver.

Fawsto
2007-08-05, 08:48 PM
I agree with the Charisma is Personality.

If charisma was physical beauty there would be no Dwarven and Half Orc paladins.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-05, 10:15 PM
I was always under the impression that they reproduce either magicaly or asexualy, due to the apparent lack of gender and of accompanying utilities.

You walk into a room and see a pair of beholders and instantly you know you too have been spotted. If you speak undercommon you hear the phrase "Hey baby, wanna kill all humans," uttered and followed by a pair of green rays streaking towards you. Before your body is turned to a pile of ash you see the streams of arcane destruction cross and know that in your final moments in this world, beholders totally did it in your burned out husk.
Sucked to be you, on the upside the searing pain drives you partially insane so if you are ever ressurected you probably wont remember the details of your death.

Laudandus
2007-08-05, 11:10 PM
My favorite example ever of charisma =/= attractiveness is the atropal from the epic level handbook. It's a flying undead baby. IIRC, its cha is over 40.

Demented
2007-08-05, 11:13 PM
A flying undead fetus the size of a small house hovers directly above your head, blocking out the sun. Its voice takes the form of a pummeling pain inside your head. It demands cake. Do you dare refuse?

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-06, 12:03 AM
http://www.rikthib.com/faves/patton.jpg
Geogre S. Patton
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs16/winstonspencerchurch1874-6.jpg
Winston Churchill
Proof that Charisma doesn't have thing to do with good looks.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-06, 02:41 AM
I play an online game that allows the players to change the events of the Three Kingdoms period of Chinese History, and the Charisma score for everyone ranges from 1-100 naturally.

It was generally agreed on that your physical appearences depended on how you roleplayed the character. It was generally assumed that if you had below 25 charisma, you were physically ugly. And if you had above 90 charisma, you were physically attractive.

However, everything between those two depended on roleplaying. One player's character was an exceptionally beautiful woman, but her charisma stat was in... the mid thirties, I think? Anyways, she roleplayed her character accordingly. The woman was sadistic, grimaced often, didn't really have a pleasnt face on most of the time, and was cruel.

Think Dilandau if you ever seen the Anime Escaflowne. He (...Or she?) is an exceptionally attractive 'pretty' boy, but he speaks in a high pitched voice, which quite often borders on sounding outright insane, and speaks to EVERYONE with contempt. You could have a character that is physically gorgeous but calls every woman 'A piece of ass' and every man he sees a 'cockroach'.

(Kind of went off-track there, but the arguement is still good. ;-))

The reverse could be true, too, I suppose. A character who is physically unattractive but very compelling. It's just a different 'type' of attraction. In fact, the DM could handle it differently... for example:

Character A has 18 charisma, is blonde, stalwart, and everything about him exudes sexiness. He asks the ranger to join him in his short adventure, and she does so, because she wants him to be her boyfriend. (A very lame example, I know... The next one will be better.)

Character B is a 60 year old woman with 18 charisma... Wait, more if you include age modifiers. ;-) And she asks the ranger to join her on her mundane quest to return an item to a magician. The ranger feels compelled to join the old woman because of her tale of how urgent the quest is, and how helpless she is without ranger's aid.

I have played one character a few times, but never got far with him (DMs' fault. ;-)) that was in his 40s, had a lanky figure, owned a real shriveled up arm (an effect of corruption), but had 19 charisma at level 1.

His method of persuasion was not through compassion or looks, but he merely knew precisely what made people tick.... which MAYBE should go under Intelligence or Wisdom, but I (and the DM), counted it as Charisma.

Basically, he could convince anyone to do anything for him because he could figure out their weak spot or could bargain with them very well, or found leverage in the conversation. He convinced a group of 'heroes' ;-) not to kill him because he held a position of power, and to do so, would upset the balance in that city, as well as bring the full wrath of his supporters against the heroes.

(Wow, that was alot of writing. >_>)

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-06, 12:10 PM
I think what we see here is three things
1. physical apearance would affect deplomacy and intimidate in almost opposite ways. you don't have to be good looking or anything to be scary, I know, i've scared people quite badly and I've caused people to cower before me. (i take taekwon-do and scare my opponents when i spar, then once i beat them solidly i teach them how to beat me, leson one, don't be intimidated) but I also am quite bad at diplomacy (just ask my gf)
2. Physical apearance and force of will are tied together but not synonimous. the stats are related and should modify each other (well physical should modify force of personality) but they are not the same.
3. Physical apearance should also contain some modifier of how someone is physicaly including con, dex and str scores.

Taking this into account one must wonder how these would work together, if i understand correctly this is something that would be difficult to work out mechanicly but might be valuable to do, perhaps we can get the giant to do this and publish or something so i could use it.

Rare Pink Leech
2007-08-07, 09:28 PM
You think Paris Hilton is "smoking hot"?

I think that, there, is the problem. People don't even know what beauty is.

Not personally, no, but she is widely considered to be sexually attractive, which is certainly a part of physical appearance.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-07, 09:30 PM
Not personally, no, but she is widely considered to be sexually attractive, which is certainly a part of physical appearance.

Exactly: Sexually attractive can be a really BAD thing when determining charisma; I look at someone who looks like Paris Hilton and instantly lose respect for them, and it has everything to do with her looks.

The "Attractive" charisma deals with is not to be confused with "pretty" or "sexy"; it's an appearance that commands respect, whether positive (diplomacy) or negative (intimidation)

Paragon Badger
2007-08-07, 10:02 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

...No, not literally. >_>

Some people like brunettes, some people like blondes, some people like a little meat on their bones, some people like the lanky frame of a 12 year old :smallconfused: , some people like blue eyes, some people like brown skin, some people like pale skin. Some people like big breasts, some people like big butts, some people like small butts.

I think... The reason that physical attractiveness is oft' ignored in the rulesets is because it varies from person to person.

Even among a single race! Kobold A might prefer a slightly darker shade of scales. Kobold B might prefer a lighter shade of scales. Kobold A and B, however, both have a fetish for kobolds with large nostrils, however.

If kobolds, a race with very few differences in appearence, can have so many varrying quirks and attractions... then imagine how vastly different it is for elves, dwarves, or humans... who have a variety of different skin colors, hair colors, and ect.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-07, 10:37 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

...No, not literally. >_>

Some people like brunettes, some people like blondes, some people like a little meat on their bones, some people like the lanky frame of a 12 year old :smallconfused: , some people like blue eyes, some people like brown skin, some people like pale skin. Some people like big breasts, some people like big butts, some people like small butts.

I think... The reason that physical attractiveness is oft' ignored in the rulesets is because it varies from person to person.

Even among a single race! Kobold A might prefer a slightly darker shade of scales. Kobold B might prefer a lighter shade of scales. Kobold A and B, however, both have a fetish for kobolds with large nostrils, however.

If kobolds, a race with very few differences in appearence, can have so many varrying quirks and attractions... then imagine how vastly different it is for elves, dwarves, or humans... who have a variety of different skin colors, hair colors, and ect.

Although I do like big butts, and I cannot hide, (a fact which I contend you can't deny) my point is that Charisma determines appearance, but not in a "pretty" way, but in a way that, if you stand up and say something, people look at you and listen.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-08, 12:00 AM
A post by a Badger, followed by an Armadillo!:smallbiggrin:

It's "cannot lie" by the way, not "cannot hide":smalltongue: