Should the Great Old Ones, especially Cthulhu, exist in Pathfinder?

[MonkeySage]

It feels like a mistake including beings like Cthulhu in a heroic fantasy game, even for horror campaigns.

Cthulhu is statted, and he's no more powerful than any other demigod in the rule books.

He can be fought and defeated, and this seems to be grossly missing the point of Cthulhu.

It seems like the Great Old Ones, and the Outer Gods, were added haphazardly to the Golarion setting too. They just don't seem to fit.

[EisenKreutzer]

I don't mind Cthulhu or the Great Old Ones existing in Pathfinder, but I would never use any kind of stats for it.
Statting up Cthulhu is, as you say, entirely missing the point.

That said, there will always be those who think fighting and potentially killing Cthulhu is tons of fun, and we shouldn't deny them their entertainment.

[noob]

Depends on how you play it: it have level 20 casting.
It could shapechange stack in immortality and make armies of trompe l'oeuil of apocalypse swarms of wizards and then produce an exponential number of them(through splitting in fact it will be faster than exponential since they will be able to cast more aoe spells as their number grows to split more) and make more wizards than atoms in the universe in a few rounds then once there is more wizards under the control of Cthulhu than there is atoms in the universe(and that it can keep growing faster and faster) resistance is futile for players.
Basically his stats are way beyond what you can imagine.
Caster level 20 means: the universe is 100% meaningless, Can be destroyed instantly and nothing matters.
Cthulhu means : the universe is 100% meaningless, Can be destroyed instantly and nothing matters.
I do not see a difference.

[Eldonauran]

I treat all divine beings the same: They have no stats because they are all tools of the DM. If you find stats on them, well congratulations, you've found stats on one of their avatars, not the actual god/deity/divine being. You might succeed in destroying the avatar but that is merely an inconvenience to that divine being, nothing more. You have managed to get their attention, if you hadn't before hand and now they might determine that you are worth a small sliver of their direct attention. Lucky you.

[Shark Uppercut]

I treat all divine beings the same: They have no stats because they are all tools of the DM. If you find stats on them, well congratulations, you've found stats on one of their avatars, not the actual god/deity/divine being. You might succeed in destroying the avatar but that is merely an inconvenience to that divine being, nothing more. You have managed to get their attention, if you hadn't before hand and now they might determine that you are worth a small sliver of their direct attention. Lucky you.
That's basically how I roll 90% of the time.
But the other 10% of the time, you can have some fun, janky stuff happening.

Go read the Iliad, specifically everything Diomedes does in book V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomedes#Diomedes_in_the_Iliad).
Diomedes stabs Aphrodite in the arm, and attacks Apollo twice before stopping. He also guts Ares with a thrown spear, but the spear is guided by Athena who also blocks Ares' spear from hitting Diomedes.
It's not really his achievement because he has gear made by Hephaestus and has Athena as a wingwoman.
Still, he's not stabbing avatars, he's stabbing Real Gods.
Not to mention, every time Zeus sexes somebody up, he shows up in person.

[Doctor Awkward]

That's basically how I roll 90% of the time.
But the other 10% of the time, you can have some fun, janky stuff happening.

Go read the Iliad, specifically everything Diomedes does in book V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomedes#Diomedes_in_the_Iliad).
Diomedes stabs Aphrodite in the arm, and attacks Apollo twice before stopping. He also guts Ares with a thrown spear, but the spear is guided by Athena who also blocks Ares' spear from hitting Diomedes.
It's not really his achievement because he has gear made by Hephaestus and has Athena as a wingwoman.
Still, he's not stabbing avatars, he's stabbing Real Gods.
Not to mention, every time Zeus sexes somebody up, he shows up in person.

The Greek Pantheon is notoriously underpowered in terms of divine providence, especially compared to most other mythologies. Heracles is one of their most important figures, and he's a demigod who is constantly outdoing is full-blooded siblings. Greek myth is rife with stories of mere mortals outwitting, out-gambitting, or otherwise outperforming deities in some way.

[Psyren]

Eh, I prefer to think of the statted GOOs as avatars or aspects rather than the real deal. But the nice thing about "Hey, you can't kill this thing" is that you don't need to buy a Bestiary to run that, y'know? A statblock where every stat is "No" might be authentic (and even funny) but good luck getting anyone to buy it.

[Doctor Awkward]

Eh, I prefer to think of the statted GOOs as avatars or aspects rather than the real deal. But the nice thing about "Hey, you can't kill this thing" is that you don't need to buy a Bestiary to run that, y'know? A statblock where every stat is "No" might be authentic (and even funny) but good luck getting anyone to buy it.

As an aside, in the World of Darkness campaign setting, Caine (the Biblical figure) is considered the first vampire, and it is from him that all other vampires are spawned.

Here is his character sheet. (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bf/ba/6e/bfba6eaedc13256a52e1f45d00e1e359.jpg) White Wolf, the publisher, considers it official.

[Psyren]

As an aside, in the World of Darkness campaign setting, Caine (the Biblical figure) is considered the first vampire, and it is from him that all other vampires are spawned.

Here is his character sheet. (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bf/ba/6e/bfba6eaedc13256a52e1f45d00e1e359.jpg) White Wolf, the publisher, considers it official.

Cute. Now show me his sales figures.

[Doctor Awkward]

Cute. Now show me his sales figures.

Well, The Bible (https://www.google.com/search?q=annual+sales+of+the+bible&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS709US709&oq=annual+sales+of+the+bible&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59.1081j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) is one of the most sold books of all time.

It brings in several hundred million dollars to various publishers every year. It's translated in enough languages that it's capable of being read by 95% of the Earth's population.

[Psyren]

Well, The Bible (https://www.google.com/search?q=annual+sales+of+the+bible&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS709US709&oq=annual+sales+of+the+bible&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59.1081j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) is one of the most sold books of all time.

It brings in several hundred million dollars to various publishers every year. It's translated in enough languages that it's capable of being read by 95% of the Earth's population.

And that's great news for churches. Not really profitable for game design companies.

[Sayt]

Cthulhu and the other Great Old Ones are all explicitly immortal. They cannot be killed, only turned away (which is what happens in "The Call of Cthulhu"). Also, a point on terminology, Gear Old Ones are statted in the game, but not Outer Gods.

I think having rules for demigods is a nice touch, personally, as end bosses for extremely high level and mythic campaigns, and also as NPCs in lower level games, as allies or non-combat obstacles.

[Thealtruistorc]

As a GM who has had some specific issues on this exact subject, I feel I should add some insight to this discussion.

In the game I've been running, the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones feature prominently, and existential terror is a heavier feature in the game than in typical Golarion fare (I should do a campaign log of this game at some point, given how often it comes up on here). What the players often fail to notice is that the existence of stats does not necessarily mean it can be killed. It just means that it can be fought.

Now, I admit that Cthulhu was killed in my game, but that was the direct result of an Outer God stepping in to fry him. What ensued from that affair left the players running scared and double-checking everything to make sure that it isn't another trap. The thing about Cthulhu is that he has plenty of resources of his own, and killing him is not going to be a creature-vs-party affair. Nothing with more than 20 intelligence plays fair, and I definitely made certain that something as strong and insanely intelligent as a Great Old One wasn't going to get taken out like a chump (my player coined the term "time-travelling interplanar hit squad" to sum up what was happening the moment ol' tentacle face knew the jig was up). If anything, the idea that "if it has stats, it can be killed" is a lie when the GM is playing smart, a lie which lures players into a false sense of security which can rachet up the terror far more than any unstatted entity.

You see, there are points when knowing a little bit can be a lot more terrifying than knowing nothing at all. For example, the same player I mentioned earlier owns Bestiary 4 and has looked over Cthulhu's stats on his own time. What he can't be aware of as a player is how the Great Old One is using those insane spell-like abilities of his to secretly screw the party over, from gating in absurdly powerful outsiders to using astral projection, wish, sending, and demand to set up cosmic spy networks that can nail players from anywhere and leave even high-level characters afraid to fight back (fun fact: Dagon serves Cthulhu and can be beckoned by a Gate Spell. That just made any fight a lot harder). Once the players realize the tools that this thing has in its box, they will be considering them constantly, whereas an unstatted force has a degree of distance from its presence (think of Star Wars, where Darth Vader was always the more present and visceral threat than the unknown foe of the Emperor).

Cthulhu has stats because it gives the players the illusion that they can win, the brief glimmer of hope that somehow the world can be saved. Those same stats exist so that GMs can bring the hurt down on any player who is delusional enough to believe that. If the player thinks they've found a way to win and challenges the Great Old One to a fight, then a properly versed GM can show him who's boss by giving the player a cosmic beatdown that is not only completely within the rules but will continue to sting 50 characters later.

Remember, every Lovecraftian hero thought they had things under control up until their last moments.

[Florian]

Agreed. You can fight the GOOs, but you can´t win.

[Gildedragon]

So imma be the dissenting voice but I feel epic pcs v Cthulhu... well they probably will win.
Not just vanquish, put to sleep, or the like. Epic PCs can end squidface.
In fact I dare say that a well prepped demilich is an eldritcher horror. Cthulhu is a jacked up tarrasque in the challenge it ought pose.

Also I'd put Nyarly on par with Asmodeus, power wise.

The PCs can hop through planes and time of their own will, build dimentional realms, immortality is a piece of cake...

It has to do with fundamental assumptions of the different generes. Pf and dnd are heroic and player-centric by their nature; and unbeatable challenge is a breach of the implicit contract

Also HPL vastly underestimated our capacity to deal with vast hugeness.

[Psyren]

Agreed. You can fight the GOOs, but you can´t win.

Depends on how you define "win." Some rando muggle with a boat "won" against Cthulhu, even though he didn't exactly enjoy the result.

[icefractal]

You can't fight Azathoth and win, sure. Or Yog-Sothoth, probably. Cthulu is several orders of magnitude below those however, and I don't think we have the evidence whether it can be defeated by "powerful beings exceeding most myths and legends" ... aka 17th+ level characters.

The Cthulu stories are all from the perspective of characters who are probably 1st-3rd level in Pathfinder terms. To them, as mentioned, a Demilich would be an unstoppable force of doom as well. Or most Demons, Devils, etc for that matter. I think that you could make a good case for putting Cthulu as anything from CR 10 on up.

Now whether it's a good choice stylistically, that's a matter of opinion. Personally I think that "crazy powerful but not inherently impossible to defeat" fits the general tone of PF better than "no stats you just lose".

[Florian]

Depends on how you define "win." Some rando muggle with a boat "won" against Cthulhu, even though he didn't exactly enjoy the result.

You can defeat one in a straight up fight mano a mano, but their Immortality make the victory meaningless, they will come back.

[Psyren]

You can defeat one in a straight up fight mano a mano, but their Immortality make the victory meaningless, they will come back.

Sure, but if he doesn't get to devour the world when he does, I wouldn't consider that meaningless. You might as well say Paladins are meaningless because the Worldwound still exists. The criteria for success here is that Golarion still exists, not that the bad guys can't come back.

[Lazymancer]

He can be fought and defeated, and this seems to be grossly missing the point of Cthulhu.
You sure you aren't missing the point of RPGs?
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/2/24/85192_sm-Copyright%20Tsr%2C%20Deities%20And%20Demigods%2C%2 0Dungeons%20And%20Dragons%2C%20Retro%20Review%2C%2 0Zeus.jpg


If players are allowed only to re-enact books and movies, why do you call it role-playing?

[ngilop]

I have never really liked all that HP lovecraft stuff. I have attempted to read a few of his books as well as others written by different artists and it just seems like poor ol' HP just was not hugged as a child.

but either way, Ifeel that including such in pathfinder is missing the point. Pathfinder is all about high fantasy and appearantly sentient spaceships (that I absolutely HATE) and not about fatalistic grim depression and the whole ' why even bother' that is absolutely central to all that lovecraft stuff.


so slapping in Cthulhu, Azathoth, Nyarlathotep and the rest to me at least, breaks with the whole feel and purpose of high fantasy.

[Crake]

I have never really liked all that HP lovecraft stuff. I have attempted to read a few of his books as well as others written by different artists and it just seems like poor ol' HP just was not hugged as a child.

but either way, Ifeel that including such in pathfinder is missing the point. Pathfinder is all about high fantasy and appearantly sentient spaceships (that I absolutely HATE) and not about fatalistic grim depression and the whole ' why even bother' that is absolutely central to all that lovecraft stuff.


so slapping in Cthulhu, Azathoth, Nyarlathotep and the rest to me at least, breaks with the whole feel and purpose of high fantasy.

There is a middle ground you realise? You know that image of the lone adventurers standing at the edge of a cliff, facing off against the ungodly, almight eldritch horror, ready to fight, no fear, and all but certain of their victory? Some people like to play as those guys. The guys who take on great old ones and actually win. I think, if simply for those players, statting out the great old ones isn't "missing the point, feel or purpose" at all. Pathfinder is a setting neutral system, sure they have an official campaign setting, but people will do what they want with the system, and the more tools for people to do the things they want, the better, in my opinion.

[Psyren]

I think the avatar/aspect approach is the best of both worlds. Playgroups who want their climactic battle against a boss monster can do so, and players that want the Lovecraftian pantheon to remain ineffable and impossible to defeat conventionally (or at all) can also do that. Simply pick which interpretation you want to be the antagonist, obstacle or backdrop for your game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm inclined to agree with niglop here. The core of Lovecraft's horror is the insignificance of man. It's not that there's a giant tentacle monster that can destroy the world, it's what the giant tentacle monster implies-- that the universe existed long before man and will continue to exist long after, that all of our art and science and efforts will ultimately come to naught. That, ultimately, we are no more than a cosmic blip.

And while you can certainly have fun playing a game with those themes, Pathfinder is not a good venue. D&D is ultimately a power fantasy, with the idea that you will start small and become great. That with big swords and clever tactics you can accomplish anything. Those sorts of ideas have informed decades of design, and leave the system fundamentally unsuited to Lovecraft. I mean, it's generally bad at horror period, what with being built around strong combat-oriented heroes, but Lovecraft is particularly bad.

You can do giant tentacle madness monsters, sure. But you can't do LOVECRAFT, and I think it's a little rude to use the actual names.

[Psyren]

You can do giant tentacle madness monsters, sure. But you can't do LOVECRAFT, and I think it's a little rude to use the actual names.

Well no offense, but they're public domain, so tough cookies.

[2D8HP]

Since Pathfinder is descended from D&D, there is precedent:

Cthullu Mythos in 1970's D&D (http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-cthulhu-mythos-in-d-in-1970s.html?m=1)

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm inclined to agree with niglop here. The core of Lovecraft's horror is the insignificance of man. It's not that there's a giant tentacle monster that can destroy the world, it's what the giant tentacle monster implies-- that the universe existed long before man and will continue to exist long after, that all of our art and science and efforts will ultimately come to naught. That, ultimately, we are no more than a cosmic blip.

And while you can certainly have fun playing a game with those themes, Pathfinder is not a good venue. D&D is ultimately a power fantasy, with the idea that you will start small and become great. That with big swords and clever tactics you can accomplish anything. Those sorts of ideas have informed decades of design, and leave the system fundamentally unsuited to Lovecraft. I mean, it's generally bad at horror period, what with being built around strong combat-oriented heroes, but Lovecraft is particularly bad.

You can do giant tentacle madness monsters, sure. But you can't do LOVECRAFT, and I think it's a little rude to use the actual names.

H. P. lovecraft is not some holy prophet whose words are unassailable.

That said, I agree with you up to a point. Doing Lovecraftian cosmic horror in a game which focuses on the heroes ability to defeat massive threats is very difficult.

[Waker]

Well no offense, but they're public domain, so tough cookies.

I think Grod was referring more to the concepts rather than the legal issues. D&D has taken a great deal of inspiration from Lovecraft and other writers who sometimes collaborated in the Cthluhu-verse. The majority of the Aberration creature type, the Far Realm and a few others would fit right in with his books. But ultimately D&D is about heroes who become legends. Even pre-epic, characters are capable are traveling across the globe, hopping to other planes of existance, out-witting ancient beings and then opening a tavern when you become an NPC. Heroes in Lovecraft's work are considered outliers if they manage to 1.survive and 2. stay sane. I mean, meeting those criteria in a Cthulhu game is practically a bragging right.

[Coidzor]

I mean, it's nice to have it as an option to include if you want to punch out Cthulhu, but trying to Mythos it up in a heroic fantasy game seems kludgy.

[Florian]

I mean, it's nice to have it as an option to include if you want to punch out Cthulhu, but trying to Mythos it up in a heroic fantasy game seems kludgy.

The entire Strange Aeon AP is about the Mythos and I´ve got to admit: They handled the topic well.
Instead on the typical Lovecraft Angst, they worked the angle the most fantasy settings overly focus on the inner and outer planes, while more or less forgetting that the "occult planes" (Ethereal, Astral, Dream, and so on.) exist and also play a major role.

[2D8HP]

Lovecraft corresponded with R. E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and Fritz Leiber who all wrote horror and the pulp fantasy that inspired Arneson & Gygax.

D&D's roots are well planted in Weird Tales and the "Lovecraft circle".

Check out Gygax's "Fantasy/Swords & Sorcery Recommended Reading" (http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2011/12/35-years-ago-this-month.html)

[The Eye]

Cthulhu is not nearly as powerful as the hype and media make him seem to be.

He was sealed away by some other force (maybe the elder things maybe not).

He is one of the lesser powers of the Lovecraft universe and was defeated by a human boat.

Stop with the Cthulhu is invincible BS.

[TheIronGolem]

I don't think putting Cthulhu & Friends in your heroic-fantasy game is "missing the point" of Lovecraft or cosmic horror. It's more like acknowledging the point but then refuting it.

"Y'know those nightmare monsters? The tentacley ones that you go crazy if you look at 'em? The ones that prove the meaningless futility of your life just by existing? The ones you can never really defeat, much less kill? Well, we did. Hail to the freakin' king, baby."

[Eldan]

The important thing to realize about Lovecraft's entities whenever they show up in this kind of thread is that we have no idea what they can do.

Cthulhu doesn't do anything impressive that one time he shows up. He gives a few people disturbing dreams, eats a few people and is really big. Nyarlathotep can apparently shapeshift, knows futuristic technology and has some kind of hypnosis powers.

Everything else? Unreliable narrators. Sure, Cthulhu is said to have the power to wake his brethren and rule the Earth. It's his cultists saying it. Yog-Sothoth is claimed to be outside of space and time and concurrent with all of it. By one person and a few mostly incoherent books. And so on.

They have no clear power levels.

Plus, they cross over with Conan, and you can bet Conan would kick some Elder Butt.

[ngilop]

I don't think putting Cthulhu & Friends in your heroic-fantasy game is "missing the point" of Lovecraft or cosmic horror. It's more like acknowledging the point but then refuting it.

"Y'know those nightmare monsters? The tentacley ones that you go crazy if you look at 'em? The ones that prove the meaningless futility of your life just by existing? The ones you can never really defeat, much less kill? Well, we did. Hail to the freakin' king, baby."

why I have stated my dislike for those works, I tend to like thing in a realm of 'there is hope/possibility' I have to say Big scary things that are beatable by a band of random heroes already exist. case in point Demons, Dragons, eldritch abominations etc etc. the point is You expect in those cases that while the basic person out there in the world ( most likely level 1-3 commoners) would crap their eyes (yeah they would be so scared it goes far above above poop in the pants) the heroes rise to the occasion because they think they have a chance.

with lovecraft the whole I mean the WHOLE ENTIRETY of it is not about how powerful these things are, or are not, or what crazy stuff they do to your brain, or any of that other such its simply about the fact that there is no use trying and there is no hope for you the end is inevitable and you are just going to have to deal with it.

so when you actually do as you are saying, you are completely missing the point with the lovecraft stuff

side note:

OMG Grod that is such a massive compliment, thank you ever so much.

[EisenKreutzer]

Stop with the Cthulhu is invisible BS.

You mean you can see him too?

[ngilop]

You mean you can see him too?

To be honest and obvious about it he is named The Eye for a reason.

[Lazymancer]

I'm inclined to agree with niglop here. The core of Lovecraft's horror is the insignificance of man. It's not that there's a giant tentacle monster that can destroy the world, it's what the giant tentacle monster implies-- that the universe existed long before man and will continue to exist long after, that all of our art and science and efforts will ultimately come to naught. That, ultimately, we are no more than a cosmic blip.

And while you can certainly have fun playing a game with those themes, Pathfinder is not a good venue. D&D is ultimately a power fantasy, with the idea that you will start small and become great. That with big swords and clever tactics you can accomplish anything. Those sorts of ideas have informed decades of design, and leave the system fundamentally unsuited to Lovecraft. I mean, it's generally bad at horror period, what with being built around strong combat-oriented heroes, but Lovecraft is particularly bad.

You can do giant tentacle madness monsters, sure. But you can't do LOVECRAFT, and I think it's a little rude to use the actual names.
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be about.

Pathfinder (Golarion) already includes insignificance and tentacle monsters with or without Cthulhu.

Tentacle monsters (aboleths) are explicitly present and not only can they destroy the world, it is known that they already did it once, when they decided to wipe out (apparently, superior to present) civilization.

[TheIronGolem]

with lovecraft the whole I mean the WHOLE ENTIRETY of it is not about how powerful these things are, or are not, or what crazy stuff they do to your brain, or any of that other such its simply about the fact that there is no use trying and there is no hope for you the end is inevitable and you are just going to have to deal with it.

so when you actually do as you are saying, you are completely missing the point with the lovecraft stuff

You seem to be confusing "missing the point" with "not accepting the point as correct". If I put Cthulhu in my game as a statted monster the PC's can kill for XP, it's because I've chosen to reject the premise of cosmic futility that the Mythos presents, not because I don't understand that premise.

[Psyren]

I think Grod was referring more to the concepts rather than the legal issues. D&D has taken a great deal of inspiration from Lovecraft and other writers who sometimes collaborated in the Cthluhu-verse. The majority of the Aberration creature type, the Far Realm and a few others would fit right in with his books. But ultimately D&D is about heroes who become legends. Even pre-epic, characters are capable are traveling across the globe, hopping to other planes of existance, out-witting ancient beings and then opening a tavern when you become an NPC. Heroes in Lovecraft's work are considered outliers if they manage to 1.survive and 2. stay sane. I mean, meeting those criteria in a Cthulhu game is practically a bragging right.

I do know what he meant actually - that applying those names/that mythos to a statblock that can be defeated is somehow taboo and should never be allowed (or at least, that allowing it is "rude.")

But what I'm pointing out is that, true to the intended concept or not, there is a market for that. People want to punch something squiddy named Cthulhu that can make lesser beings (and perhaps even the punching being) go mad if we look at it. What I'm pointing out is that making Cthulhu (or some named aspect thereof) punchable in a Bestiary is not forcing him to be so in your own home game. The wonderful thing about beings without stats is that any GM regardless of design skill level can brew them. Take that White Wolf statblock (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bf/ba/6e/bfba6eaedc13256a52e1f45d00e1e359.jpg) that was linked earlier in the thread, any monkey with a typewriter could have come up with that; but actual stats take much more effort. So if people are willing to pay for said effort, then there's an opportunity to profit from this and it's not hurting anyone - and that profit can only help the game as a whole, meaning more goodies for everyone, including the folks who don't want punchable Lovecraft.

At the end of the day, the most powerful entities in this game are not the gods or Euclidian entities. It's the consumers that want to pay for fun content.


You seem to be confusing "missing the point" with "not accepting the point as correct". If I put Cthulhu in my game as a statted monster the PC's can kill for XP, it's because I've chosen to reject the premise of cosmic futility that the Mythos presents, not because I don't understand that premise.

This.

[Florian]

I´ve got to ask: Folks, have you actually taken a look at a) the stat block and b) the Great Old One subtype? Based on experience, it´s harder to fight a demon lord than a GOO, at least the former stay down when knocked out.

[Psyren]

I´ve got to ask: Folks, have you actually taken a look at a) the stat block and b) the Great Old One subtype? Based on experience, it´s harder to fight a demon lord than a GOO, at least the former stay down when knocked out.

Putting aside that this game has far too many moving parts to really say whether two creatures of the same CR are equally easy to fight in a vacuum (for what group? In what location? Using what specific optimization/buffs/items? etc) I'd have to ask - even if that's true, so what? Neither GOOs nor demon lords are gods, they merely have cultists who think they are. If Cthulhu is really weaker than Mephistopheles in a straight-up fight (against someone he can't immediately drive insane, that is) then that wouldn't necessarily worry me.

Edit for non-divine example

[The Eye]

You mean you can see him too?

I'm sure I wrote invincible.

This must be a plot made by Cthulhu cultists to discredit me. They want you to believe Cthulhu is op.

[Elderand]

I'm sure I wrote invincible.

This must be a plot made by Cthulhu cultists to discredit me. They want you to believe Cthulhu is op.

*Slinks away into the night with a typo machine, whistling innocently*

[Beowulf DW]

One of the roots of High Fantasy, and thus D&D and Pathfinder, at least as I understand it, is the group of epics revolving around heroes like Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Hercules and even the early versions of King Arthur (he stole Stone Henge!).

To quote an English professor I had the pleasure of studying under: "These men do things that humans can never do. They hold their breath for hours in the deepest reaches of the ocean. They wield weapons so heavy no man could lift them much less use them. They tear giants apart with their bare hands. These heroes are just as much monsters as the creatures they fight."

With that in mind, I feel that the Pathfinder system is wholly unsuited to the kind of cosmic horror that Lovecraft originally intended these characters for. That said, I'm also wholly in favor of their inclusion. Sometimes, you just want to reject the idea of the insignificance of man and tear a cosmic horror a new one. After all, by the time that "Fight Cthulu" becomes a valid option, the PCs are monsters, too.


The core of Lovecraft's horror is the insignificance of man. It's not that there's a giant tentacle monster that can destroy the world, it's what the giant tentacle monster implies-- that the universe existed long before man and will continue to exist long after, that all of our art and science and efforts will ultimately come to naught. That, ultimately, we are no more than a cosmic blip.

"'Be of good heart,' cry the dead poets out of the living past. 'One day all our songs will be silenced. What of it? Go on singing.'"

It's hard for some, like me, to get into that genre simply due to a refusal to accept with those ideas. Well, 'refusal to accept' may be the wrong phrase. I've always found our insignificance to be somewhat comforting, not a cause for horror.


*Slinks away into the night with a typo machine, whistling innocently*

Anyone have Old Man Henderson on speed dial?:smallamused:

[Gildedragon]

On a tangential note:
Azathoth as the Ultimate Divine gets a big no from me as a player or DM

As the head hocho of the far realms, sure, and as such perhaps stronger than many deities... but that thing certainly won't be at the heart of hearts of any cosmology I play with

[Psyren]

One of the roots of High Fantasy, and thus D&D and Pathfinder, at least as I understand it, is the group of epics revolving around heroes like Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Hercules and even the early versions of King Arthur (he stole Stone Henge!).

To quote an English professor I had the pleasure of studying under: "These men do things that humans can never do. They hold their breath for hours in the deepest reaches of the ocean. They wield weapons so heavy no man could lift them much less use them. They tear giants apart with their bare hands. These heroes are just as much monsters as the creatures they fight."

With that in mind, I feel that the Pathfinder system is wholly unsuited to the kind of cosmic horror that Lovecraft originally intended these characters for. That said, I'm also wholly in favor of their inclusion. Sometimes, you just want to reject the idea of the insignificance of man and tear a cosmic horror a new one. After all, by the time that "Fight Cthulu" becomes a valid option, the PCs are monsters, too.



"'Be of good heart,' cry the dead poets out of the living past. 'One day all our songs will be silenced. What of it? Go on singing.'"

It's hard for some, like me, to get into that genre simply due to a refusal to accept with those ideas. Well, 'refusal to accept' may be the wrong phrase. I've always found our significance to be somewhat comforting, not a cause for horror.

Agreed on all points.

Personally, I don't find our insignificance comforting or frightening; it's just there.


On a tangential note:
Azathoth as the Ultimate Divine gets a big no from me as a player or DM

As the head hocho of the far realms, sure, and as such perhaps stronger than many deities... but that thing certainly won't be at the heart of hearts of any cosmology I play with

I'd put him as stronger IF you enter the Far Realm, between the Dark Tapestry or whatever place he calls home. Much like beating Asmodeus on his home turf in Hell would be impossible even for most deities. But being the Blind Idiot, the gods have done a pretty good job of keeping him away from the rest of reality, a circumstance his cults are furiously and futilely attempting to unravel.

[Coidzor]

The entire Strange Aeon AP is about the Mythos and I´ve got to admit: They handled the topic well.
Instead on the typical Lovecraft Angst, they worked the angle the most fantasy settings overly focus on the inner and outer planes, while more or less forgetting that the "occult planes" (Ethereal, Astral, Dream, and so on.) exist and also play a major role.

By "Mythos it up," I meant going to the extreme end of Lovecraft Angst + Killer DMing, such as where simply encountering a Mythos creature would cause your demon-slaying PCs to suddenly start pissing themselves with terror and then get so crazy and mentally damaged that they're useless.

[Psyren]

By "Mythos it up," I meant going to the extreme end of Lovecraft Angst + Killer DMing, such as where simply encountering a Mythos creature would cause your demon-slaying PCs to suddenly start pissing themselves with terror and then get so crazy and mentally damaged that they're useless.

You don't need an AP or stats to do that though. Just freeform it. Hell, have them roll characters first if you really want, then force them to watch as you pee on the sheets.

[Coidzor]

You don't need an AP or stats to do that though. Just freeform it. Hell, have them roll characters first if you really want, then force them to watch as you pee on the sheets.

Well, that's a bit less vulgar than I would have put it if I was going to use French, but, yeah, that conveys the sentiment that I was initially politely declining to express when it comes to people trying to run certain game systems when they just seem to want Call of Cthulhu. :smallamused:

[Bohandas]

It may be missing the point to stat up Cthulhu, but it isn't inconsistent with Cthulhu. In his native setting Cthulhu is basically the equivalent of an epic character in a world with only low level commoners; a big fish in a small pond. Plus only Azathoth, Shub-Nugarrath, Yog-Sothoth, and possibly Nyatlathotep are definitely truly divine.

[Bohandas]

Cthulhu is not nearly as powerful as the hype and media make him seem to be.

He was sealed away by some other force (maybe the elder things maybe not).

He is one of the lesser powers of the Lovecraft universe and was defeated by a human boat.

IIRC he boat just stunned him, and the large wound inflicted was visibly regenerating when the boat steamed away

[noob]

Look at Cthulhu character sheet.
Now look at what he did in the books.
It can do everything it did in the books.
So from this point of view it is not incoherent.
Whenever you want Cthulhu to be beatable or not is just a matter of what you want.
You could have Cthulhu be beatable with or without character sheet if you want it to be beaten and if you do not want it to be beaten you could make it be unbeatable with or without character sheet.(but if you want it to be unbeatable with character sheet either you use the fact it have a caster level of 20 and that with that you can do everything or you create a new character sheet who contains informations like: when a creature is in the same multiverse as Cthulhu it lose instantly and die and its soul is destroyed forever)

[The Eye]

Plus only Azathoth, Shub-Nugarrath, Yog-Sothoth, and possibly Nyatlathotep are definitely truly divine.

Azathoth is too stupid to do anything, both Yog-Sothoth and Nyatlathotep were defeated by Randolph Carter. They are not that big of a deal guys, trust me.

[Elderand]

Azathoth is too stupid to do anything, both Yog-Sothoth and Nyatlathotep were defeated by Randolph Carter. They are not that big of a deal guys, trust me.

Once you take lovecraft canon in general, expanded universe and so on, you realize one thing.

You're only at risk of madness induced by eldritch abomination if you are a white protestant male with your head burried in the sand. Everyone else seems to be doing relatively okay.

[ngilop]

Azathoth is too stupid to do anything, both Yog-Sothoth and Nyatlathotep were defeated by Randolph Carter. They are not that big of a deal guys, trust me.

I will add that not only is Randolph Cater the alter ego of Lovecraft, he is also Yog-Sothoth in another form. In case you forgot that part of who the character is.

[The Eye]

Once you take lovecraft canon in general, expanded universe and so on, you realize one thing.

You're only at risk of madness induced by eldritch abomination if you are a white protestant male with your head burried in the sand. Everyone else seems to be doing relatively okay.

Indeed! The only moment I can remember of the top of my head of someone going insane by just looking at an eldritch abomination is Danforth in the end of the book “At the Mountains of Madness”.

And he had just faced Elder things and Shoggoths, was one of the few survivors of his expedition, extremely tired and stressed out. He looks back and sees a creature(everyone assumes is Cthulhu but it's never explicitly stated) my guess is that the whole experience caused his insanity not just the creature. It was only the cherry of the cake.


I will add that not only is Randolph Cater the alter ego of Lovecraft, he is also Yog-Sothoth in another form. In case you forgot that part of who the character is.

Was he? Everyone assumes so but it's never stated that he was Lovecraft's alter ego. In the books he is just a guy, a writer whose ancestor was a wizard, so he reads the necronomicon and becomes a wizard as well(Although far weaker than any wizard from pathfinder) who is able to identify eldritch creatures and travel to the dream realm.

I don't know where you got the idea he is also Yog-Sothoth since the two interact in "Through the Gates of the Silver Key".

Heck a low level wizard like Cater was able to possess and torture an eldritch abomination in that book!

And Nodens, a mere Elder God is able to hunt down the great old ones, in special Nyatlathotep! His Nightgaunts are a ban to Nyatlathotep shantaks.

Nodens is nothing but a glorified Poseidon knock-off, I'm sure his power is on level with any fantasy God.

Heck a bunch of Cats of Ulthar were able to defeat Nyatlathotep and his Moon-beasts in “The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath”, and they are basically normal cats who know how to talk and are able to eat human flesh, their only special qualities is excellent military experience and strategy which I’m sure any human nation can have. (They may or may not be powered by the Egyptian like Great ones but still the Great Ones are far weaker than the Great Old Ones and in level with any fantasy god).

[Bohandas]

Azathoth is too stupid to do anything, both Yog-Sothoth and Nyatlathotep were defeated by Randolph Carter. They are not that big of a deal guys, trust me.

Nyarlathotep was never defeated by Carter, Carter just caught on to having been double-crossed in time to avoid beig killed.


Was he? Everyone assumes so but it's never stated that he was Lovecraft's alter ego.

iIRC Lovecraft's official self-insert character was actually the wizard Alhazred. Ironic, given Lovecraft's reputation for xenophobia.

[The Eye]

Nyarlathotep was never defeated by Carter, Carter just caught on to having been double-crossed in time to avoid beig killed.

A Great Old One whose main trait is to be a smart trickster being out smattered by a mere mortal is a huge defeat.

You can see he is clearly losing his **** in the end of the book.

Plus the fact Carter was able to live on without any sort of repercussion is more than enough proof that he had the last laugh.