Man seeking LA +0 Goliath

[tedcahill2]

I've looked around for other variant goliaths, but haven't found one that works for me.

So my question for the playground:
Do you think the Goliath would be a suitable LA +0 race if:
• it's stats were reduced to +2 Str, -2 Dex
• powerful build, inspired by raptoran flight, was changed to: at level 1 a Goliath is treated as a large creature whenever a size modifier is called for, such as grapple, trip and disarm. A Goliath with 6 or more HD can also wield weapons as though they are large creatures.

So?

[NerdHut]

Honestly, WotC is unnecessarily tough on martial-based races. You wouldn't need to take much from Goliaths to have similar pros and cons to other +0 LA races. If your DM is willing to homebrew variants anyway (or you're the DM), you'd probably be better off just tweaking the racial modifiers as you mentioned and calling it good.

My recommendation for a +0 LA Goliath would be this:
+2 STR, -2 DEX
30ft speed
Medium Size
Monstrous Humanoid
Powerful Build (as it appears in the book)
Mountain Movement
Acclimated
+2 Sense Motive

If you need to take more away, I'd go with turning it into a humanoid (because monstrous humanoids are tougher to target with spells), and/or changing Mountain Movement to something like a +2 to Climb and Jump.

[tedcahill2]

Honestly, WotC is unnecessarily tough on martial-based races. You wouldn't need to take much from Goliaths to have similar pros and cons to other +0 LA races. If your DM is willing to homebrew variants anyway (or you're the DM), you'd probably be better off just tweaking the racial modifiers as you mentioned and calling it good.

My recommendation for a +0 LA Goliath would be this:
+2 STR, -2 DEX
30ft speed
Medium Size
Monstrous Humanoid
Powerful Build (as it appears in the book)
Mountain Movement
Acclimated
+2 Sense Motive

If you need to take more away, I'd go with turning it into a humanoid (because monstrous humanoids are tougher to target with spells), and/or changing Mountain Movement to something like a +2 to Climb and Jump.
+2 to Climb and Jump does seem more sensible than no penalty to climb full speed given the description of the race.

I'm not sure I agree with your opinion of powerful build though, as it was that most contested ability in other threads I read on the topic. At higher levels the extra few points of damage from using large weapons won't be a huge factor, but at first level, wielding a 3d6 great sword, is pretty nasty.

[NerdHut]

+2 to Climb and Jump does seem more sensible than no penalty to climb full speed given the description of the race.

I'm not sure I agree with your opinion of powerful build though, as it was that most contested ability in other threads I read on the topic. At higher levels the extra few points of damage from using large weapons won't be a huge factor, but at first level, wielding a 3d6 great sword, is pretty nasty.

I see your point.

Your original option could help with that. Alternatively, maybe the Goliath could wield larger weapons from level 1, but with a small penalty (maybe -2, like monkey grip). It could be reduced as you gain hit dice.

[Rebel7284]

Why not ask for LA buyoff rules to be in effect and play a regular goliath?

[OldTrees1]

Honestly I only consider Goliath as LA+1 in the context of the Mountain Rage(gain large size instead of powerful build) racial substitution level. Being Large sized is a big advantage. Wielding a slightly bigger weapon is not.

[tedcahill2]

Honestly I only consider Goliath as LA+1 in the context of the Mountain Rage(gain large size instead of powerful build) racial substitution level. Being Large sized is a big advantage. Wielding a slightly bigger weapon is not.

You consider +4 str, -2 Dex, +2 con okay for and LA +0 race?

[Arael666]

You consider +4 str, -2 Dex, +2 con okay for and LA +0 race?

Water orcs have +4 str, +2 con, and -2 to all mental stats. While Goliath is striclty better, I still do not think it is worth +1 LA, too bad we don't have anything less than +1 LA yet more than +0 LA (If it was my game I would allow the player to buy off for free at lvl 4 or 5).

[tedcahill2]

Water orcs have +4 str, +2 con, and -2 to all mental stats. While Goliath is striclty better, I still do not think it is worth +1 LA, too bad we don't have anything less than +1 LA yet more than +0 LA (If it was my game I would allow the player to buy off for free at lvl 4 or 5).

Don't water orcs still have light sensitivity?

So Goliaths have a net +4 stats (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex), and water orcs have a net +0 stats (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha).

Goliaths have nothing but positive racial traits (including one which increases their weapon damage output by 50%, due to large weapons), and orcs have light sentitivity (a negative racial trait), and really nothing else.

I'm not really looking to debate whether Goliath's should be an LA +1 or not. But when I compare the Goliath's to my base line races (Dwarf, Human, Elf, Half-orc, etc) they are clearly better. So my suggestions in my OP were trying to tone them back to be in line with other LA +0 races.

[Telonius]

Goliaths are in a weird place - about halfway between what ought to be LA +0 and LA +1. (Humans ought to be the balance point). Bumping down the Str bonus to +2 would probably be fine.

[Gullintanni]

Goliaths are in a weird place - about halfway between what ought to be LA +0 and LA +1. (Humans ought to be the balance point). Bumping down the Str bonus to +2 would probably be fine.

Yeah. At LA 0, they're strictly better than nearly every other race for martials, unless you absolutely need that bonus feat, but they're not usually worth LA +1.

For LA 0, I'd balance out the stats and call it a day. +2 str -2 dex +2 con and -2 cha. That way they wouldn't be auto-picks for the standard Sorcadin Gish. Or for Martial Clerics.

[OldTrees1]

You consider +4 str, -2 Dex, +2 con okay for and LA +0 race?

Yes. I would not be willing to lose a level for those ability boosts, therefore they are not worth any LA.

[NerdHut]

Yes. I would not be willing to lose a level for those ability boosts, therefore they are not worth any LA.

I agree that those stats, at least on their own, are not worth +1 LA. Strength and Constitution are very useful, but they are probably the easiest stats to boost anyway. They shouldn't be weighed as heavily as DEX or a casting stat.

I mean, seriously. The Level Adjustment system is horribly balanced. The half-ogre template doesn't even give you a +1 unless you also go up in size. I ended up with +12 to STR on a a +1 template. I suspect that the people that prefer casters see those high stats and assume they're just as valuable as a high WIS on a cleric.

[Gullintanni]

Yes. I would not be willing to lose a level for those ability boosts, therefore they are not worth any LA.

I wouldn't lose a level for them, but that doesn't make them suitable for Level 0. As a matter of good game design, no race should be strictly better than any of the others except in specific roles.

A Goliath, bumped down to LA 0, with no changes, is almost unambiguously the best race for martial characters, gishes, and are an excellent choice for Clerics and Druids.

They occupy the uncomfortable space of being too good for LA 0, and too weak for LA 1. Kind of like the Aasimar. They would be great LA 0 races in Pathfinder though.

[OldTrees1]

I wouldn't lose a level for them, but that doesn't make them suitable for Level 0. As a matter of good game design, no race should be strictly better than any of the others except in specific roles.

A Goliath, bumped down to LA 0, with no changes, is almost unambiguously the best race for martial characters, gishes, and are an excellent choice for Clerics and Druids.

They occupy the uncomfortable space of being too good for LA 0, and too weak for LA 1. Kind of like the Aasimar. They would be great LA 0 races in Pathfinder though.

Goliath without Large Size (remember I consider Mountain Raging Goliaths to be LA +1) seem less appealing to me than Dragonborn Raptorians (5th/12th level Flight + Breath). Even Dragonborn Warforged, Human, and Strongheart Halfling would still be in the running.

However perhaps my 3.5 race standard is closer to your Pathfinder race standard. I view an ECL +1 race should be twice as strong as a LA +1 template or ECL +0 race. (ECL +N race would be N+1 times as strong as an ECL +0 race)

[Fouredged Sword]

My suggestion, semi-LA 1/2 with buyoff.

"Goliaths do not select a feat at first level. Goliaths must wait until 3rd level to select their first feat from HD advancement. This does not effect feats granted by class features such as levels in fighter or monk. At 3rd level a goliath may spend 1500 exp to select any one feat they would have had access to at first level."

[Gullintanni]

Goliath without Large Size (remember I consider Mountain Raging Goliaths to be LA +1) seem less appealing to me than Dragonborn Raptorians (5th/12th level Flight + Breath). Even Dragonborn Warforged, Human, and Strongheart Halfling would still be in the running.

However perhaps my 3.5 race standard is closer to your Pathfinder race standard. I view an ECL +1 race should be twice as strong as a LA +1 template or ECL +0 race. (ECL +N race would be N+1 times as strong as an ECL +0 race)

You're kind of making my point for me. You're comparing LA 0 Goliaths to two of the strongest, templated base rases (Warforged for sweet sweet immunities and raptorans for flight), and two races that grant bonus feats necesary to certain builds.

But a LA 0 Goliath, as is, stands head and shoulders above Dwarves, Half-Orcs, and even Water Orcs. If something is strictly better than everything else, then it is imbalanced for its level adjustment. Dragonborn Warforged and Raptorans break from the internal consistency of 3.5's racial power levels, as would a Goliath at LA 0.

Which is all fine. In the grand scheme of things, if you're playing a martial character, you're probably not breaking the game anyway. But, if you're allowing a Goliath as LA 0, then every other race ought to be brought up to the same power threshold. Back porting PF's races would be a good start.

[Dagroth]

Goliath without Large Size (remember I consider Mountain Raging Goliaths to be LA +1) seem less appealing to me than Dragonborn Raptorians (5th/12th level Flight + Breath). Even Dragonborn Warforged, Human, and Strongheart Halfling would still be in the running.

However perhaps my 3.5 race standard is closer to your Pathfinder race standard. I view an ECL +1 race should be twice as strong as a LA +1 template or ECL +0 race. (ECL +N race would be N+1 times as strong as an ECL +0 race)

You mention Dragonborn Human & Strongheart Halfling...

You do realize that becoming Dragonborn causes the Human & Strongheart Halfling to lose their Racial Bonus Feat, right?

[Gullintanni]

You mention Dragonborn Human & Strongheart Halfling...

You do realize that becoming Dragonborn causes the Human & Strongheart Halfling to lose their Racial Bonus Feat, right?

I think OldTrees meant to imply Dragonborn Warforged, and Human, and Strongheart Halfling, as opposed to Dragonborn Warforged, and Dragonborn Human, and Dragonborn Strongheart Halfing. Although, both follow grammatically the way things are written. :P

For the record, I have no qualms with Goliaths and Warforged being the standard for LA 0. I just want internal consistency between those races and core races. I like that Pathfinder bumped all the core races up a ways.

As it stands though in 3.5, if Dwarf is LA 0, then Goliath has to be LA +1, or it is has to be tweaked a bit for balance.

[tedcahill2]

So if we're done debating the difference between an LA 0 and LA 1 race, can we get back to the original question?

I am creating a setting for my group that will not have the standard races. Human will still be there, but gnomes, halflings, dwarves, elves, and orc will all be unavailable for play.

Instead I am adding warforged, kalashtar, goliaths, raptorans, and some others.

I need those goliaths brough down to the standard of LA 0 of humans. So I think reducing their stats a bit, and spreading the benefits of powerful build over a number of levels, the same way a raptoran can only fly at high HD.

[OldTrees1]

I think OldTrees meant to imply Dragonborn Warforged, and Human, and Strongheart Halfling, as opposed to Dragonborn Warforged, and Dragonborn Human, and Dragonborn Strongheart Halfing. Although, both follow grammatically the way things are written. :P

For the record, I have no qualms with Goliaths and Warforged being the standard for LA 0. I just want internal consistency between those races and core races. I like that Pathfinder bumped all the core races up a ways.

As it stands though in 3.5, if Dwarf is LA 0, then Goliath has to be LA +1, or it is has to be tweaked a bit for balance.

Your reading is correct. I balance races off vanilla Human (which means things like Warforged & Goliaths without Mountain Rage).

If I based races off any of the other core races, I would need to nerf Humans or buff those other core races (your point about the pathfinder buff to core races).


So if we're done debating the difference between an LA 0 and LA 1 race, can we get back to the original question?

I am creating a setting for my group that will not have the standard races. Human will still be there, but gnomes, halflings, dwarves, elves, and orc will all be unavailable for play.

Instead I am adding warforged, kalashtar, goliaths, raptorans, and some others.

I need those goliaths brough down to the standard of LA 0 of humans. So I think reducing their stats a bit, and spreading the benefits of powerful build over a number of levels, the same way a raptoran can only fly at high HD.

If balancing against Human(Bonus Feat), Warforged(Living Construct), or Raptorian(5th level Flight, 12th level improved Flight): Nix mountain rage and you are set.

If balancing against Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarves, Elves, or Orc: Nix mountain rage, nerf ability modifiers to less than Orc, and make Powerful Build unlock at 6th.

[tedcahill2]

If balancing against Human(Bonus Feat), Warforged(Living Construct), or Raptorian(5th level Flight, 12th level improved Flight): Nix mountain rage and you are set.

If balancing against Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarves, Elves, or Orc: Nix mountain rage, nerf ability modifiers to less than Orc, and make Powerful Build unlock at 6th.

Mountain rage isn't even a factor, because it's a racial sub level and not a racial trait. What I'm balancing is it's stats, which net it a total +4, and powerful build, which increases damage by roughly 50% due to using large size weapons. The skills bonuses they get of pretty tame, so it's really those two things.

[Gullintanni]

Your reading is correct. I balance races off vanilla Human (which means things like Warforged & Goliaths without Mountain Rage).

If I based races off any of the other core races, I would need to nerf Humans or buff those other core races (your point about the pathfinder buff to core races).



If balancing against Human(Bonus Feat), Warforged(Living Construct), or Raptorian(5th level Flight, 12th level improved Flight): Nix mountain rage and you are set.

If balancing against Gnomes, Halflings, Dwarves, Elves, or Orc: Nix mountain rage, nerf ability modifiers to less than Orc, and make Powerful Build unlock at 6th.

I don't agree that Human = Dragonborn Warforged = Goliath. Humans are not that good.
Bonus Feats are that useful; but Humans balance unusually as compared to other races.

While playing members of [Insert Race], you'll gain X feats over your lifetime. If your build needs X+1 Feats to be viable or to achieve power at the sweet spot, then Humans are a fantastic choice. But if you only need X feats to complete your build, then Humans are almost always inferior to at least one of the other races. When I'm building a character, the question I always first ask myself is, "Is this build significantly improved by a bonus feat". The answer is usually no. At that point, Humans go in the wastebasket, and I look for something more interesting.

Humans are not a great race, they're just necessary to make some builds work; outside of that, they're almost always a GOOD race, but even in core, there's typically something better.

Using that as a measure of power for Humans; we can now conclude that, because a Goliath at LA 0, is almost unambiguously the best race for Martial Classes, and for Sorcerer Gish classes, and is very strong for frontline casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids), it is imbalanced against the core races, Humans included. Construct Traits, Flight, Powerful Build - combined with an exceptional stat array that includes a universally beneficial ability score bonus (Constitution) are all better than a bonus feat, unless that feat is absolutely necessary to your build.

I think Humans are well balanced against the core races in that Humans are good for every build, whereas the rest of the core races are great within their niche. Humans don't need a nerf. Otherwise, I think we agree for the most part :P

On Topic Reply:

A Goliath with a +2 Strength -2 Dex +2 Constitution and -2 Charisma, to me, is a strong but playable LA 0. It is still an excellent race for offensive Martials, though it's not particularly good for Dex based Martials and will be overlooked in that niche. Powerful Build makes them excellent grapplers, and bumps their damage output a little bit. Unlike Warforged (or even dwarves), they have no special defensive benefits. The Charisma penalty makes them sub-optimal for play as Clerics or Cha-based casters, including gishes. As great as Powerful Build is, it is most advantageous during the early game; where the margins for survival can fluctuate quickly based on one or two points of damage, but as weapon damage becomes less and less relevant, so too will Powerful Build. With the reduced Strength Score, Powerful Build doesn't do quite the same amount of lifting, given that the character will both miss more often and deal less damage.

If you feel like they're still too strong at LA 0, then I agree that pushing Powerful Build back might make sense; though I'd push it to 3 HD rather than 6 HD.

As adjusted, Goliaths will still overshadow Half-Orcs; but, that's not saying much. Half-Orcs set the bar pretty low. Dwarves, on the other hand, do better for dex based martials, are more difficult to affect with magic, come equipped with Darkvision, and a bunch of situational, but useful bonuses. Goliaths, as adjusted, don't immediately outclass Dwarves.

[OldTrees1]

Mountain rage isn't even a factor, because it's a racial sub level and not a racial trait. What I'm balancing is it's stats, which net it a total +4, and powerful build, which increases damage by roughly 50% due to using large size weapons. The skills bonuses they get of pretty tame, so it's really those two things.

Powerful build only increases base weapon dice damage. So that 50% disappears rapidly. The more lasting impact is the +4 to maneuvers.

Mountain Rage is a racial sub level, but any nerfed Goliath given LA+0 that can still take that sub level to gain large size is going to be stronger than the other LA+0 races IMHO. If you move Powerful Build to 6th level, a 1st level Goliath Barbarian would gain Powerful Build + Increased Reach while raging (because that is what Large Size is and what Mountain Rage does).


Gullintanni's Goliath, while not balanced against Half Orcs as they admit, would be balanced against Orcs as long as Mountain Rage was off the table.


I don't agree that Human = Dragonborn Warforged = Goliath. Humans are not that good.
Bonus Feats are that useful; but Humans balance unusually as compared to other races.

While playing members of [Insert Race], you'll gain X feats over your lifetime. If your build needs X+1 Feats to be viable or to achieve power at the sweet spot, then Humans are a fantastic choice. But if you only need X feats to complete your build, then Humans are almost always inferior to at least one of the other races. When I'm building a character, the question I always first ask myself is, "Is this build significantly improved by a bonus feat". The answer is usually no. At that point, Humans go in the wastebasket, and I look for something more interesting.

Humans are not a great race, they're just necessary to make some builds work; outside of that, they're almost always a GOOD race, but even in core, there's typically something better.

Using that as a measure of power for Humans; we can now conclude that, because a Goliath at LA 0, is almost unambiguously the best race for Martial Classes, and for Sorcerer Gish classes, and is very strong for frontline casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids), it is imbalanced against the core races, Humans included. Construct Traits, Flight, Powerful Build - combined with an exceptional stat array that includes a universally beneficial ability score bonus (Constitution) are all better than a bonus feat, unless that feat is absolutely necessary to your build.

I think Humans are well balanced against the core races in that Humans are good for every build, whereas the rest of the core races are great within their niche. Humans don't need a nerf. Otherwise, I think we agree for the most part :P

I know enough strong feats to consider a X+1 comparable to X and Raptorian Flight unless you are a Fighter or a Martial Rogue. In cases where you don't have access to enough feats of that calibre, then I would agree with you.

For example: If I was already going to spend 2 feats to gain large sized reach, it only takes +1 feat to gain flight.

[Gullintanni]

Powerful build only increases base weapon dice damage. So that 50% disappears rapidly. The more lasting impact is the +4 to maneuvers.

Mountain Rage is a racial sub level, but any nerfed Goliath given LA+0 that can still take that sub level to gain large size is going to be stronger than the other LA+0 races IMHO.



I know enough strong feats to consider a X+1 comparable to X and Raptorian Flight unless you are a Fighter or a Martial Rogue. In cases where you don't have access to enough feats of that calibre, then I would agree with you.

For example: If I was already going to spend 2 feats to gain large sized reach, it only takes +1 feat to gain flight.

I actually don't much care for Raptoran flight - Flight is pretty easy to acquire passed a certain point; at which point their racial advantage drops to almost nothing. And I agree with you about Mountain Rage, but that's more an example of a poorly balanced ACF than it is a reason to increase or decrease Goliath LA.

Feats can do a lot of work, which is why humans are such a great race, but it's rare that one feat makes the difference between a build being viable or not. With creativity, it's pretty easy to gain access to the benefits most feats offer through other means. Full-casters can, with proper selection of PrCs, actually score a net gain in terms of available feats. Regardless - that's a discussion about the internal consistency of power among feats, and how that interacts with the system as a whole.

It's a larger debate than we really need to have here :P

[OldTrees1]

I actually don't much care for Raptoran flight - Flight is pretty easy to acquire passed a certain point; at which point their racial advantage drops to almost nothing.

And I agree with you about Mountain Rage, but that's more an example of a poorly balanced ACF than it is a reason to increase or decrease Goliath LA.

There are always opportunity costs to the methods of gaining Flight. I have found Raptorian to be one of the efficient options (some feat combos, and some expensive magic items are the others) given how I have seen on demand flight in action at my table. I suspect your table has less of a demand for flight and thus the cheaper but more limited forms of flight end up more efficient?

It is an example of a poorly balanced ACF. However without it I don't think Goliaths are LA+1 and with it they are LA+1. So I advised removing it as part of making an LA+0 Goliath.

[Gullintanni]

There are always opportunity costs to the methods of gaining Flight. I have found Raptorian to be one of the efficient options (some feat combos, and some expensive magic items are the others) given how I have seen on demand flight in action at my table.

It is an example of a poorly balanced ACF. However without it I don't think Goliaths are LA+1 and with it they are LA+1. So I advised removing it as part of making an LA+0 Goliath.

The opportunity cost for playing a Raptoran is having to play a Raptoran. No amount of flight efficiency will make up for the self-loathing and regret that follows from seeing that on my character sheet. :smallsigh:

(admittedly, I may have some small bias here :smallwink::smallwink:)

[OldTrees1]

The opportunity cost for playing a Raptoran is having to play a Raptoran. No amount of flight efficiency will make up for the self-loathing and regret that follows from seeing that on my character sheet. :smallsigh:

(admittedly, I may have some small bias here :smallwink::smallwink:)

Okay that explains it! :smallwink::smallwink: (personally that is one reason I like my raptorians to be scaly followers of Bahamut)

[lord_khaine]

Powerful build only increases base weapon dice damage. So that 50% disappears rapidly. The more lasting impact is the +4 to maneuvers.

Even so i kinda think that the additional 1d6 damage is a nice bonus that makes for a superior melee choice a very long way. Honestly both that and the +4 bonus to maneuvers are rather big.

So to answer the OP. If you want to put Goliats down into 0 ECL territorty, then nert the Stat bonuses down to +2 Str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha.
And powerfull build to +2 size bonus, and getting a -2 penalty to hit when wielding oversized weapons, falling to -1 at level 6.