Fixing Ninja (Suggestions Wanted)

[ErebusVonMori]

I've seen a tonne of threads about how to fix monk but none on how to fix ninja so I thought I'd start one. Now for me the best thing about the ninja class is that, despite its weakness, it feels ninjaey so I'm looking for a bunch of flavourful class features to slot in to bring the poor guy up to spec as well as possible alterations to sudden strike so it isn't literally a worse version of sneak attack. Please include why you think the ability fits the class and at roughly what level it should come into play.

Examples

Across the Nightingale Floor (Ex): For a number of rounds equal to twice the character's ninja level they may, as a free action, move as if under the effect of a silence spell. (Level 3)

Speak No Evil (Ex): A ninja may select one opponent they have dealt damage to each round as under the effect of a silence for that round. (Level 5)

[mabriss lethe]

A quick and dirty fix would be to revamp the ninja's ki pool to be a per-encounter resource, instead of per-day. You could literally strip out the "Inspiration" progression for the factotum, file off the serial number and call it a day.

The biggest problem, though, is that there are already several different classes that fill the "ninja" niche better than the class called "Ninja" (Samurai suffers from the same problem). You have 3 basic ways to address the problem.

1. Play one of the better classes: It's easier, and gets the job done, though I admit it can be less than satisfying.

2. Put a bandaid on it: See the first paragraph. This is a quick and dirty fix. Usually just snipping bits off of the class chassis and replacing those bits with comparable mechanics already used to better effect by other classes. these sorts of fixes usually won't alter the power level all that much, if they're done right, but they'll stabilize shoddy mechanics. The downside is that it lacks any sort of novelty.

3. Total rebuild: Build a new class from the ground up with a completely different design philosophy. You get what you want this way, but it's time consuming and easy to screw up if you don't have a lot of practice.

[ErebusVonMori]

I'm asking for suggestions for option 3.

[daremetoidareyo]

1.) AC bonus stacks with monk.
2.) Setting sun, tiger claw or shadow something maneuvers from ToB.
3.) Needs mind blank and freedom of movement at higher levels
4.) Target opponents non HP defenses: fort saves (poison), reflex save (make something ninja-y up), maybe change sudden strike to dealing ability damage?

[Zancloufer]

I have a full fix in a pdf and other various word docs, idk where to upload it to though.

Coles notes:

>8+int Skill points. No idea why this didn't happen.

>Sudden Strike has no maximum range but still doesn't apply when flanking. Also is considered sneak attack for feats/classes/abilities that require/modify sneak attack. A simple side grade to give it slightly different flavour (you make a really good sniper).

>AC bonus is the same as Monks and isn't called out for not stacking with it or the Swordsage's

>Ki Pool is increased to Level*Wis mod*4. Even with 12 Wis it's 4 points per level. 20 Wis at level 20 gives a terrifying 400 Ki points to spend.

>More Ki powers and the ability to choose from them to an extent. Ghost Step eventually becomes improved invisibility and can have it's duration be more than one round in exchange for spending more ki. Ability to see invisible/incorporeal enemies. Short Range Dimension Door that upgrades to allow Etheralness instead. Also a Ki power that gives you a chance to foil stuff like scent and blindsense.

>Acrobatics is an untyped bonuses that scales to +15 to Balance/Climb/Jump/Tumble/Swim. Also every +3 you gain in it you can choose a little ability from a list. The Str based ones give you a little benefit when using the skill + ability to use Dex instead of str. Balance essentially is full speed balancing + Uncanny dodge and the Tumble one is full speed tumble + you can avoid stuff like Thicket of Blades if their hit can't beat your tumble checks.

[Solaris]

4.) Target opponents non HP defenses: fort saves (poison), reflex save (make something ninja-y up), maybe change sudden strike to dealing ability damage?

Highlighted is the best in a list of good ideas for ninja fixes. The other three items I've implemented myself (although it was swordsage bonus to AC), but the idea of sudden strike dealing ability damage pleases me greatly. Making it worth being difficult to use is certainly a good idea, especially given how rare mundane ability to cause ability damage is.

Poison doesn't count as a 'mundane way to cause ability damage'. Not only is it an item and not a class feature, it also relies on one of the strongest saves monsters tend to have.

[mabriss lethe]

Highlighted is the best in a list of good ideas for ninja fixes. The other three items I've implemented myself (although it was swordsage bonus to AC), but the idea of sudden strike dealing ability damage pleases me greatly. Making it worth being difficult to use is certainly a good idea, especially given how rare mundane ability to cause ability damage is.

Poison doesn't count as a 'mundane way to cause ability damage'. Not only is it an item and not a class feature, it also relies on one of the strongest saves monsters tend to have.


If you want to make it something better, make it apply a penalty to ability scores instead of damage. bypasses the biggest problem with ability damage (almost everything worth killing is immune to it). If you want to balance it, give the penalties a short duration so that an opponent might be able to shake it off before the end of combat.

[Baby Gary]

about a year ago I homebrewed a ninja that I hope doesn't such as much, just look at it for ideas, this was just made for fun, not to be actually played. also i made this when I didn't know that much about D&D (that was when I thought druids were not that good). Anyway here it is, how you like it

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NnbHOFb-otY4URQp8YXx8AI-05KGu5GW8taoZCrrTmA/pub

also feel free to give any constrictive critisizm.

Baby Gary

[ErebusVonMori]

One thing I'm looking at for sudden strike is a series of status conditions that can be inflicted instead that can be chosen instead of the damage depending on the situation.

So the ninja can choose for example to do 4d6 damage or to do Dex damage with a Reflex Save of (10+ 1/2 Ninja Level + Wis), basically turn it into an as needed utility of status effects, temporary blindness, deafness etc.

[Fearan]

Perhaps Pathfinder ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) would work for you?

[Grod_The_Giant]

My 4-step low-tier quickfix works decently on the Ninja, as it does for most things

Double all static numerical bonuses. (That is to say things that aren't "+Charisma" or "+level")
Anything with a daily usage limit is instead changed to an HOURLY limit.
At noncaster level 6 you gain an extra move action, which updates to a standard at 12th.
You can upgrade a class' BAB one step, it's HD 2 steps, or gain 4 new class skills and skill points/level.

So you get more AC, much more Ki, a bigger Acrobatics bonus, and you can be either a much better fighter or a much better skill-user. For this specific case, I'd also recommend swapping Sudden Strike for conventional Sneak Attack, I think.

[ngilop]

I went in a different direction with all the Asian themed classes in D&D for my campaign world.
To differentiate them from the more western based classes I added a hint of mysticism to all of them, the Samurai got invocations, the monk got something akin to invocations and the ninja became a spell caster type rogue.

Here my Ninja is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?277587-Ninja-Re-tool-Please-Critque) take a look and see if you can use anything from it.

[ComaVision]

Here's the fix from my game:


Iaijutsu Focus added to the skill list.
Sneak Attack instead of Sudden Strike.
Ki points per day is equal to the Ninja's class level plus additional points as determined by the bonus power point table from psionics.
Double the bonus granted by Acrobatics.
Ninja gets all of the variant abilities from Dragon #354.


EDIT: A player in my game has used this so I have seen it in play. He had enough Ki to use Ghost Step (invisible) most combat rounds and did the most damage of the group by a decent margin, as long as he could get his SA damage. His efficacy was on par with a moderately optimized Rogue, which is what I was shooting for anyway. I dislike when classes don't work "out of the box".

[Psyren]

1) Make ki a "per encounter" resource.
2) Keep "1/2 level + Wis" progression.
3) Give them access to PF Ninja Tricks, Master Tricks, and the Unchained Rogue's Dex to Damage with certain weapons. Also give them the basic ki uses from the PF Ninja
4) I'd leave them at 6+Int skills so the Rogue can shine.

[Karl Aegis]

Alternate class feature that allows them to take fighter bonus feats instead of sudden strike.

Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at level 1.

Still Mind at level 3.

Evasion at level 2.

Uncanny Dodge at level 4.

Trap Sense (as Rogue).

Slippery Mind at level 12.

Gain a small pool to reduce the effects of traps if you trigger them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I made a Ninja off of Swordsage w/ a maneuver progression (http://torchofspirit.proboards.com/post/15). But I'm guessing you want to avoid resorting to Tome of Battle.
In that case...

Ninja has similar problems to Rogue, just amplified. So some are changes I'd make to Rogue, too.
- d8 HD...maybe even d10 (reduce Con importance, see below)
- Good Fort and Ref saves (make Con less important and reduce MAD; for Rogues I give good Will to make Wis less important, but Monk uses Wis)
- 8+ Int skill points and more class skills from Rogue's list, like UMD
- Either just make Sudden Strike sneak attack, or give it actual benefits to make up for loss of flank-activation (functioning in non-total concealment and longer range being obvious boons to add...and get rid of the stupid ban on nonlethal weapons I never even noticed was there before)
- Improve the AC bonus and do the same for Monks and others w/ Monk AC. I did +1 at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20. But just a straight-up +1 per 2 levels is probably fine.
- Give the Ninja special abilities like the Rogue gets at higher levels. Just use the Rogue ones, make your own, or feel free to take the ones I made up:
∙Crippling Strike (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability
∙Defensive Roll (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability
∙Opportunist (Ex): As the Rogue Special Ability
∙Hide in Plain Sight (Su): As the Shadowdancer class feature
∙Death Attack (Ex): You gain a Death Attack, as the Assassin class feature, except that it can be used at any range you could make a Sudden Strike, and the save DC is equal to 10 +1/2 Ninja level +Wisdom modifier. In addition, whenever you attack with a poisoned weapon, the poison’s save DC increases by 2.
∙Harbinger of Death (Ex): Whenever you drop a foe with Sudden Strike (reducing her to negative hit points or destroying her), all other foes within 30 ft must make a Will save, DC 10 + ½ Ninja level +Wisdom modifier. Creatures with HD equal to or less than the felled target become frightened on a failed save, shaken on a successful save, for one round per Ninja level in either case. Creatures with greater HD than the one you have slain must save or become shaken for one round per Ninja level, with no ill effect on a success.
∙Find Pressure Point (Ex): You gain a 25% chance of dealing Sudden Strike damage to creatures immune to it (by any means), and reduce any chance the target has of ignoring your SS damage by -25%. Note: You can take the feat Improved Pressure Point up to 3 times. Each time it is taken, these percentages increase/decrease by 25% (up to 100% total).
∙Running Climb (Ex): Move up a wall as a move action at your full speed. If you do not reach a horizontal surface to stand on after this movement, you immediately fall, unless you catch yourself with the Climb skill. Falling in this way, you may not “jump off” to reduce falling damage, though you may tumble upon landing.
∙Sniper’s Eye (Ex): You are so well trained in ranged assassination, “point blank” range is now considered 100 ft for you, modifying the range limit on that feat and any precision-based attack you know. If you succeed in your Hide check after a sniping attempt, you may shift your position up to 5 ft per 5 points your Hide check exceeds 10, up to a maximum of your speed.
∙Springing Attack (Ex): You gain the benefits of the Spring Attack feat. If you already possess (or later obtain) that feat, you instead gain the ability to take any standard action between your movement. Thus, you could move up, use a standard action strike maneuver, then retreat away, for example.
∙Untraceable (Su): You are nigh impossible to track down by even the most exotic of methods. Add your Ninja level to the DC for any creature attempting to track you, and if you move at half speed, you can take the time to leave no tracks at all. Against any creature with the Scent ability that would smell your precense, you can make a Hide check at -5 opposed by that creature's Spot check. Against a creature with Tremorsense, you can attempt a Move Silently check at -5 opposed by that creature's Listen check to avoid being detected when you normally would be.
- Add a Ninja version of Savvy Rogue feat if making your own abilities

Fixes to existing Ninja class features:
- Push Evasion up to an earlier level. At least 9th like Rangers. Earlier is fine, and possibly adding Imp. Evasion as a special ability option.
- Great Leap lets Ninja qualify for stuff as if she had the Run feat. Or just include the Run feat in the class feature....
- Ki Power gains 1 bonus usage at the start of each encounter, which is lost if not used before the end of that encounter
- Ghost Step also grants Nondetection and explicit immunity to True Seeing (for those who somehow think Nondetection doesn't) and Blindsight at level 15
- Ki Dodge changes to immediate action
- Ghost Strike changes to a swift action and lasts for 1 round