How to make Monk>Wizard? (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So I'm looking for a way to make a Monk that not only can stay competent with casters such as Wizards but can actually beat them. Is there any way to make such thing? Any advice whether a single feat to choose, what kind of thing to do or even a fully fleshed out build is fine.

So far the only things I have found that could make a Monk somewhat competent are Touch of Golden Ice
Matrix Monk Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532)
Monk Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0)

[Technetium43]

Nope. Not without breaking the game in half with cheese, and even then the wizard can do it faster, better, and cheaper. This discussion has been had hundreds of times, and has never resulted in any other outcome.

[ErebusVonMori]

I know this isn't what you want to hear but the simple answer is that you can't

[Gellhorn]

Actually there is a fairly straightforward monk build that gets you more or less on par with wizards.

So you take your typical Monk 20. Might be tricky to survive that far, but you can probably figure out something...

Then you retrain all your levels into wizard and boom, on par! Can even beat other wizards too if you play your cards right.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Neerf spellcasters into the ground. Otherwise it's impossible.

[flappeercraft]

Nope. Not without breaking the game in half with cheese, and even then the wizard can do it faster, better, and cheaper. This discussion has been had hundreds of times, and has never resulted in any other outcome.

Fair point but there is never harm from searching for a way as it just might exist


I know this isn't what you want to hear but the simple answer is that you can't

You lose nothing from trying sooooo...


Actually there is a fairly straightforward monk build that gets you more or less on par with wizards.

So you take your typical Monk 20. Might be tricky to survive that far, but you can probably figure out something...

Then you retrain all your levels into wizard and boom, on par! Can even beat other wizards too if you play your cards right.

Best. Response. Ever.

[Arbane]

Let monks learn Sidereal Martial Arts from Exalted. That might do the trick.

[enderlord99]

There is a simple trick that might make a single-classed monk be as strong as a wizard of the same level.
Be level one.

[AvatarVecna]

First question: are you asking how to build a monk with existing rules that is better than existing wizards, or are you asking what changes would need to be made to the monk class to make it the wizard's superior?

Assuming the answer to the previous question is "existing rules", this is largely going to depend on the kinds of wizards you're working with/fighting against. Are they largely blaster casters? Crack open a monk handbook, crank up your Touch AC/Saves/Damage, and you'll probably be good to go. Are they BFC/summoner/buffer mages who stick close to combat even in the high levels? You're probably gonna need to cheese your mobility and defenses pretty hard to not get stuck in place surrounded by buffed up summons, and you're gonna need to cheese your offense pretty hard to get around the wizard's defensesbut I think there's enough monk cheese out there that you could do it (although it'll be largely dependent on exactly what spells that wizard is using). Wizard who's both built and played in a way that has them knocking on the door into Tier 0? Sorry, you're gonna be out of luck without going into powerful homebrew options and serious cheese.

Assuming the answer to the previous question is "changes", I couldn't tell you for sure what all you'd need, but it'd still depend on the kind of wizard you're facing. Blaster caster? Jiriku Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed) is a pretty nice upgrade. Summoner/Buffer/BFC? You might need to upgrade to the Martial Artist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477086-The-Martial-Artist-%28Class-in-30-minutes-PEACH%29). Tier 0 wannabe? If you're not in Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431660-quot-Mind-over-matter-matter-over-magic-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29) weight class, you're probably wasting your time.

[daremetoidareyo]

Make them immune to whatever magics they don't want to be affected by, capable of banishing outsiders, and have the ability to see through fog. Also 2 more skill points per level. Also, pounce. Also, have weapons that can ground fliers at 400'

[Remuko]

Play a druid with improved unarmed strike superior unarmed strike and a monks belt?

[ryu]

There is a simple trick that might make a single-classed monk be as strong as a wizard of the same level.
Be level one.

Abrupt jaunting fiery burst bfc monster says hi. Not only does the monk not win, I'm reasonably sure the fight can be won without rolling dice.

[Psyren]

1) Also be a wizard
2) Be a better wizard
3) Add one level of monk
4) Congraturation! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNJM4Plnj6w)

[mabriss lethe]

Fair point but there is never harm from searching for a way as it just might exist



You lose nothing from trying sooooo...



Best. Response. Ever.


Short version. It's not that people haven't tried. They have. repeatedly. There's just too big of a chasm between the classes to bridge. A monk that a skilled optimizer has tuned up with all the right ACFs and feats, packing all the right gear will only be able to respond to a tiny fraction of the capabilities that any full caster has at their disposal, and will really only be able to initiate any sort of action against the most careless of wizards. (yeah, I only prepared one magic missle, and every other slot is heightened prestidigitation)

It's basically comparing slingshots to strategic nuclear assets. Sure, the slingshot can take out a guy, but wizard is the guy on the other side of the world with a spy satellite network and his finger on the big red button.

[Buufreak]

Step 1: ban magic. Step 2: allow magic equipment that doesn't include scrolls, wands, etc. That should gimp the wiz enough.

[AvatarVecna]

Step 1: ban magic. Step 2: allow magic equipment that doesn't include scrolls, wands, etc. That should gimp the wiz enough.

Magic is needed for magic items, so banning magic means banning magic items. Of course, then both combatants take VoP, at which point the wizard is inheremtly infererior to the monk (who is still inferior the druid because Wild Shape). Of cpurseb if you're allowing magic purely for item creation, crafting-focused wizard will have WBLmancy to get at least twice as many magic items as the monk does.

So I guess this depends on whether the monk class features are worth more than whatever gp-equivalent advantage the wizard gets from crafting items himself (which is dependent on how cheesy the wizard is getting as well).

[Bucky]

First, you want to steal the wizard's hat. You can also take his spellbook and spell components just in case. I recommend using misdirection to pull this off.
Second, you want to find as large a portable AMF as you can.
Third, put a strong Int poison on a light monk weapon.
Fourth, put those Hide skill ranks to use to get within charge range of the wizard.
Fifth, charge the wizard while carrying the AMF. If you manage to achieve tactical surprise, the AMF should suppress his casting before he can react.
After the charge, grapple the wizard. Once he's grappled, you can apply int poison until he's no longer capable of casting spells.

In this scenario it's the AMF and tactics doing the work rather than the monk.

[Fizban]

In order to make that into an actual question you first have to define wizard, because nothing can beat Schrodinger's Wizard. Once you've decided what "a wizard" actually does and what "actual competence" is, then the answers should be fairly obvious.

But if you're starting from the premise that monks can't do anything then no, there's nothing that's going to change your mind, because you've already decided monks can't do anything- or more likely, you've decided that non-wizards can't do anything. So why ask?

You lose nothing from trying sooooo...
Correction: you lose only time, unless you consider the exercise worth the time spent on it regardless of the result.

[RedSand]

Make a monk that can steal a wizard's spellbook. Then wait one day.

[Rebel7284]

- At the earliest of levels with PCs having generous starting stats, a monk can certainly win.
- At level 7, with the right stealth build and good tactics, a monk may be able to hit 50/50 with shadow blend ACF.

Anything past around level 9 is hopeless for the monk.

Here are some amusing workarounds that totally defeat the spirit of the question:
- Black Ethergaunt/Monk 1 only has class levels in Monk but can totally go toe to toe with similar level wizards.
- Monk 20 getting the outsider type makes the duration of Polymorph Any Object permanent when turning into outsiders, say a Solar with full cleric casting.
- Leadership
- Fusion+Astral Seed types of shenanigans

[Lazymancer]

So I'm looking for a way to make a Monk that not only can stay competent with casters such as Wizards but can actually beat them. Is there any way to make such thing? Any advice whether a single feat to choose, what kind of thing to do or even a fully fleshed out build is fine.

So far the only things I have found that could make a Monk somewhat competent are Touch of Golden Ice
Matrix Monk Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532)
Monk Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0)
Reality check: classes don't beat each other. Players do.

Strength of T1 classes is not in having abilities (those are often subpar), but in giving players a toolbox. Smart players (or those who've read things smart players write) can use toolbox to come up with solutions to their problems. That's how it works.

Consequently, if you have Monk played by competent player and Wizard by a newbie - you'll have Monk beating Wizard more often than not.

Now, if you want to have competenet player with Monk equally (or more) effective than the competent player with Wizard, you have to either give Monk his own toolbox (make Monk a caster) or remove Wizard's toolbox (give Monk a 10 km-wide AMF field - which will work until mid-levels or maybe even high-).

[Gruftzwerg]

First, it would have been better if you would have taked about the optimization lvl that your group is playing at. Otherwise people will assume full out optimized caster/wizard which will make the task impossible.

But if you play on a regular (enemy) optimization lvl, there are decent options. Not every DM will play a caster/wizard to their full strength. You could even assume that your DM isn't even able to, due to the lack of optimization knowledge.

As far as I can say only the minority in this forum is in the position (right knowledge and really high optimization lvl in their rpg group) to play T1 wizards to their strength. (Unless they have read guides for at least a dozen times. Cause a simple single reading will confuse most people who are not used to read high lvl cheese guides..^^).

Against regular caster, you just need some magical defenses and some good burst dmg.
Have a look at my monk warlock gish (Almighty Claw of Malar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish)).
If he manages to (really) hit the caster, the caster will be instant dead (or his contingencies who trigger on death will trigger..^^). The build has a great arsenal of deception and perception tools at hand, what should give even casters with some lil (not to much^^) optimization a hard time to fight you. Further a high fly speed of 150ft helps you to initiate combat from really far distances (300ft charge or 600ft dive + charge). A single DC 15 tumble check to bypass any mundane enemies on your way to your target and a heavy x4 pounce dmg multiplier handles the rest.
Have a look at the item section. There are a few gems mentioned that help to fight casters.
Ring of Nine Lives is imho the most noticeable one, followed by the regular magical defenses like "Third Eye: conceal" to avoid any divination spying on you. Just have a look for some inspiration.

And stay away from "debuff" builds. Higher lvls (& with some optimization) tend to be RocketTag games which cause super short fights where debuffing is a waste of time (unless it comes without any dmg loss = you are still full attacking/not wasting to much of your build resources).
If you can "hit" him with a debuff attack, you could have killed him with the same attack if you would have gone for max dmg. That's the crux of debuff builds. They are a waste of actions in higher lvl games most (not always, but almost) of the time.

[JNAProductions]

First, it would have been better if you would have taked about the optimization lvl that your group is playing at. Otherwise people will assume full out optimized caster/wizard which will make the task impossible.

But if you play on a regular (enemy) optimization lvl, there are decent options. Not every DM will play a caster/wizard to their full strength. You could even assume that your DM isn't even able to, due to the lack of optimization knowledge.

As far as I can say only the minority in this forum is in the position (right knowledge and really high optimization lvl in their rpg group) to play T1 wizards to their strength. (Unless they have read guides for at least a dozen times. Cause a simple single reading will confuse most people who are not used to read high lvl cheese guides..^^).

Against regular caster, you just need some magical defenses and some good burst dmg.
Have a look at my monk warlock gish (Almighty Claw of Malar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish)).
If he manages to (really) hit the caster, the caster will be instant dead (or his contingencies who trigger on death will trigger..^^). The build has a great arsenal of deception and perception tools at hand, what should give even casters with some lil (not to much^^) optimization a hard time to fight you. Further a high fly speed of 150ft helps you to initiate combat from really far distances (300ft charge or 600ft dive + charge). A single DC 15 tumble check to bypass any mundane enemies on your way to your target and a heavy x4 pounce dmg multiplier handles the rest.
Have a look at the item section. There are a few gems mentioned that help to fight casters.
Ring of Nine Lives is imho the most noticeable one, followed by the regular magical defenses like "Third Eye: conceal" to avoid any divination spying on you. Just have a look for some inspiration.

And stay away from "debuff" builds. Higher lvls (& with some optimization) tend to be RocketTag games which cause super short fights where debuffing is a waste of time (unless it comes without any dmg loss = you are still full attacking/not wasting to much of your build resources).
If you can "hit" him with a debuff attack, you could have killed him with the same attack if you would have gone for max dmg. That's the crux of debuff builds. They are a waste of actions in higher lvl games most (not always, but almost) of the time.

Does that build work against Abrupt Jaunt?

[Xar Zarath]

Quadratic Wizard...Linear Monk.

Unless you can gimp the Wizard, Monk isn't going to win. If Epic, stop Epic Spellcasting because if Wizard has that then there's no need to go any further. So...yeah either make Monk into Wizard or Sorc/Monk.

[Malroth]

A High op monk can, with enough WBL and prep beat many indivual types of low op unprepared wizards of equal level mostly by using said WBL to duplicate high op wizard tricks. Given equal amounts of optimization however or any amount of luck on the wizard's end and they can simply fiat a win.

[Vaz]

L1 Wizard, vs L20 Monk. Done.

[ben-zayb]

Make every place a dead magic zone.

[Eldan]

L1 Wizard, vs L20 Monk. Done.

That a challenge? We once had Wizard 1 vs. Fighter 20, that got pretty interesting.

[Gruftzwerg]

Does that build work against Abrupt Jaunt?

Sure, you can counter the enemy immediate action short range teleport with the same trick. the build has several ways to swift/immediate teleport to counter such lil tricks. And since the caster is limited to 1 immediate action as I am limited to 1 swift in my turn, I guess that equals the odds towards my favor.

No, a caster with such low lvl tricks won't escape anywhere. Unless you have a prepared caster (which will get difficult due to Third Eye: Conceal) and with several layers of contingent spells &/or ice assassins, it won't get to difficult. Further the caster fist needs to be aware & have LoS to avoid me. With invisibility + stealth + concealment he will have a difficult time to pinpoint you. While 2 of the 3 deceptions can be overcome easily by casters, stealth con often break their neck. Especially if they are unprepared for such a situation (that all other magical sight becomes useless) due to lack of divination/info.
As said, you need a optimized caster to beat a optimized gish. It's not hard (and maybe even lesser optimization), but simple tricks only work against simple builds/players.

[Aharon]

That a challenge? We once had Wizard 1 vs. Fighter 20, that got pretty interesting.

Oh, I missed that one, do you have a link to it?

[Eldan]

I don't, sorry. Google doesn't find it either. In any case, the Fighter had to get a lot of WBL and equipment limitations in order to not just turn into a better wizard.

[SirNibbles]

Not if you want to remain an actual Monk.

Monk abilities: improved unarmed damage, extra mobility, armour bonus when unarmoured
Wizard abilities: create new dimensions, summon powerful beasts to aid you, change the environment for miles around in extreme ways, cripple your enemies from afar, change your body to become better in every way, etc.

The Monk is simply too weak and the Wizard is too strong because the archetypes are so vastly out of balance.

[shaikujin]

So I'm looking for a way to make a Monk that not only can stay competent with casters such as Wizards but can actually beat them. Is there any way to make such thing? Any advice whether a single feat to choose, what kind of thing to do or even a fully fleshed out build is fine.

So far the only things I have found that could make a Monk somewhat competent are Touch of Golden Ice
Matrix Monk Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532)
Monk Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0)

If your are looking for builds, there are several heavily optimized monk builds in Tippy's monk challenge thread, most of which will trample all the Elder Evils. You can search for it. Some of the builds don't get translated properly after the forum migration, so you have to do a "reply" to see the details.

But given a similar level of optimization, full casters will do better than mundane classes.

[Rhyltran]

I'm one of the monk guys on this forum. Monk is my favorite pet class and I've provided numerous builds/advice when people want to make monk. Through optimization Monk can perform well in a group, able to use multiple roles in the party, and is capable of taking out anything in the book by level 12 in a full round action if you manage to get it off. That being said, you're not beating a wizard. We had a wizard in our party that was an optimized blaster, literally the weakest variant of wizard, and in our campaigns pvp rarely (but does) happen. The party at the end of the campaign was so out of touch with his goals he decided to engage us. I got the initiative and the drop on him but between his spells, his contingencies, his item choices (remember Wizards get WBL too), and scroll choices he not only made it impossible for me to land a blow but put up a good show against the entire party.

You can make an effective monk that contributes in encounters. You're not going to beat an optimized wizard. Now if you want effective monk builds? We can give you that. Getting great saves, ac, defenses, nice tricks, and 12d8 to 36d8 damage per strike are all within the realms of possibility.

[flappeercraft]

I'm one of the monk guys on this forum. Monk is my favorite pet class and I've provided numerous builds/advice when people want to make monk. Through optimization Monk can perform well in a group, able to use multiple roles in the party, and is capable of taking out anything in the book by level 12 in a full round action if you manage to get it off. That being said, you're not beating a wizard. We had a wizard in our party that was an optimized blaster, literally the weakest variant of wizard, and in our campaigns pvp rarely (but does) happen. The party at the end of the campaign was so out of touch with his goals he decided to engage us. I got the initiative and the drop on him but between his spells, his contingencies, his item choices (remember Wizards get WBL too), and scroll choices he not only made it impossible for me to land a blow but put up a good show against the entire party.

You can make an effective monk that contributes in encounters. You're not going to beat an optimized wizard. Now if you want effective monk builds? We can give you that. Getting great saves, ac, defenses, nice tricks, and 12d8 to 36d8 damage per strike are all within the realms of possibility.

Well no response has been able to give any way to make monk better so I guess this is as close as it will get. How exactly would you do that?

[Rhyltran]

Well no response has been able to give any way to make monk better so I guess this is as close as it will get. How exactly would you do that?

What level range are you working with?

Like awhile ago in another thread I came up with this level 9 build for someone:

Monk 6/Psionic fist 3. (You want to go into psionic fist at least 5.)

Feats of note Improved Natural Attack + Wild Talent
Magic items of note Ectoplasmic Fist/Monk's belt.

Later you want to get Warshaper. Get two levels of Warshaper. This will get you another size increase and morphic body.

So.. let's try..

Human Monk Feats:
1) Improved Grapple
1) Improved Initiative
1) Wild Talent
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Great Fortitude
6) Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack
9) Practiced Manifester

Just make sure you have at least 4psicraft to qualify for practiced manifester.

This is what I'd do with a level 9 build.

So by level 9-10 you can have monk's belt and two size modifiers already. You have higher initiative so you're more likely to go first you have improved grapple, improved trip, and combat reflexes. Great fortitude to further help your fortitude saves. You'll get powers and later psionic bonus feats. Later when you take warshaper you'll gain another size modifier and further bonuses from there.

This is a level 9 build that gets you two size modifiers, the ability to use psionics, has good saves, and in the future can get further size modifiers and bonuses. A monk/psionic fist combo will get you a lot further than just a monk.

[Zanos]

Player>Build>Class in order of importance, but as always if the wizard is build and played as competently as the monk, the monk will lose every time.

I suppose you could always try to dual wield partially charged wands. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80704-Beating-Batman-Sir-Giacomo-s-Guide-to-Monks)

[Psyren]

I was just about to ask if someone had a link to the Giamonk :smallbiggrin:

[CIDE]

Pazuzu, pazuzu, pazuzu...

[mabriss lethe]

All that said, even in core you can make a respectable, if not particularly high powered character based around a monk. A combination of monk, assassin, and Dragon disciple can be pretty nasty. (exact layout, and further dips can be altered to suit your taste)

[Hackulator]

There are a lot of inane assumptions that go into these arguments about spellcasters vs other classes.

Yes, a prepared wizard who has been allowed to get whatever spells he wants will destroy anything he is prepared for.

However, there are many ways to attack a wizard, and he cannot be prepared for all of them all of the time, at least not until very high level.

Likewise, unless your DM is an idiot or just hates having players play anything but spellcasters, he will not give you unlimited access to every spell you want.

[Rynjin]

Likewise, unless your DM is an idiot or just hates having players play anything but spellcasters, he will not give you unlimited access to every spell you want.

Even were this true, it can't be defined in an internet discussion because every single game/table is going to have a different white/blacklist.

Still, in 3.5 or its derivative, Pathfinder, there are enough game busting options in the core book to make "beating the Wizard" impossible. Making a Monk that is better than a Wizard (not "beat him in a fight" be BETTER THAN) given the same level of optimization on either side is impossible. Unless you trim down spell options to nearly nothing (which is houseruling on the scale that makes discussion pointless), the Wizard will always be able to handle more situations than the Monk, who has inherently less options.

Particularly if you take the same attitude about spells and apply it to Feats, prestige classes(/archetypes), and magic items.

[Buufreak]

Magic is needed for magic items, so banning magic means banning magic items. Of course, then both combatants take VoP, at which point the wizard is inheremtly infererior to the monk (who is still inferior the druid because Wild Shape). Of cpurseb if you're allowing magic purely for item creation, crafting-focused wizard will have WBLmancy to get at least twice as many magic items as the monk does.

So I guess this depends on whether the monk class features are worth more than whatever gp-equivalent advantage the wizard gets from crafting items himself (which is dependent on how cheesy the wizard is getting as well).

Either you overlooked step 2, or misunderstood it. I was half asleep when typing so its entirely possible to be my bad. It should have the meaning of only allowing magic items that are not made to duplicate casting, such as scrolls and wands.

[flappeercraft]

Rhyltran I can't find any PrC or Class named Psionic Fist, only a fea. DO you mean Fist of Zuoken?

[Psyren]

Rhyltran I can't find any PrC or Class named Psionic Fist, only a fea. DO you mean Fist of Zuoken?

They're the same class. Fist of Zuoken is the product identity name while Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) is the OGL name.

[Rhyltran]

Rhyltran I can't find any PrC or Class named Psionic Fist, only a fea. DO you mean Fist of Zuoken?

Huh, on the SRD it's listed as http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm however it looks like Fist of Zuoken should be the real name and it's the same thing. I apologize for that.

Also with the combo I mentioned above you also might want to note this power:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm

Which is a very juicy combo with the above.

[Eldariel]

There are a lot of inane assumptions that go into these arguments about spellcasters vs other classes.

Yes, a prepared wizard who has been allowed to get whatever spells he wants will destroy anything he is prepared for.

However, there are many ways to attack a wizard, and he cannot be prepared for all of them all of the time, at least not until very high level.

Likewise, unless your DM is an idiot or just hates having players play anything but spellcasters, he will not give you unlimited access to every spell you want.

Above level 9 Wizard has such strategic flexibility that he can be prepared for basically anything and thansks to Scry + Teleport has unparalleled mobility and reconnaissance. Also Lesser Planar Binding + Animate Dead (and Command Undead vs. Mindless Undead) enables formidable minionmancy and there's out of combat power consolidation.

With just Core-only level-up spells known, Wizard eclipses all noncasters easily. Of course, restricting spells known hurts to a degree. Clerics and Druida are just as oppressive and know all the spells on their list automatically though.

[Rhyltran]

I was just about to ask if someone had a link to the Giamonk :smallbiggrin:

But let's not. ;) Anyway the above build is probably the closest you'll get. Another good one would be something like a wild shape monk. In my opinion these are the best monk builds you can perform.

[Karl Aegis]

At the end of the day you are a melee class with a d8 hit dice. You aren't that good.

[Psyren]

At the end of the day you are a melee class with a d8 hit dice. You aren't that good.

Hit die isn't the problem though. Swordsage and Psychic Warrior have d8 too, as do Magus, Warpriest, Druid, Cleric...

The real problems are MAD and class features.

[Anthrowhale]

This is rather specific, but you can make a monk++ with a Telthor Human taking the Troll-blooded feat and buying off the LA if possible (LA+3).

You'll be incorporeal: perfectly silent, able to move through walls, fly, immune to nonmagical attack sources, 50% miss from most magic, and using incorporeal touch attacks. In other words, a better monk. Troll-blooded is required to survive Bound to the Land damage. Any other means of reliably healing 1 hp/minute is viable. If you additionally can add AMF (*), you'll be immune to most magical attack and able to debuff magic which is much better than Monk spell resistance.

This leaves you able to take on just about any published threat you can find. Compared to a wizard, you have no strategic maneuverability or sensing, and no minionmancy. Still, it's enough that a wizard should be careful.

(*) If you ignore the Rules Compendium AMF rules changes, this is easy: just use an item granting AMF of which there are at least 3. With the Rules Compendium, you need an ally that confers Selective[you] AMF via a ring of spell storing or similar.

[Telonius]

There was a thread from a very long time ago that was trying to figure out, just theoretically, what a melee class would need to pose a credible threat to a wizard. I don't think it was Monk-specific, but melee in general. My google-fu is failing me to find the original thread, but it was a pretty long list. Obvious things like being able to survive a first strike, but also:

- ability to overcome (or just say no to) crafted contingent spells
- ability to avoid detection from divinations (i.e. Wizard can't phone a friend to ask who's a threat to him), in particular scrying (the wizard doesn't just have to wait until you're asleep to teleport in and murder you)
- ability to actually get to and hit the wizard (method of seeing invisibility, ignoring miss chance, ignoring mirror images, method of flight)
- ability to prevent the wizard from fleeing and/or a way to follow him home to his pocket dimension

[Zanos]

This is rather specific, but you can make a monk++ with a Telthor Human taking the Troll-blooded feat and buying off the LA if possible (LA+3).

You'll be incorporeal: perfectly silent, able to move through walls, fly, immune to nonmagical attack sources, 50% miss from most magic, and using incorporeal touch attacks. In other words, a better monk. Troll-blooded is required to survive Bound to the Land damage. Any other means of reliably healing 1 hp/minute is viable. If you additionally can add AMF (*), you'll be immune to most magical attack and able to debuff magic which is much better than Monk spell resistance.

This leaves you able to take on just about any published threat you can find. Compared to a wizard, you have no strategic maneuverability or sensing, and no minionmancy. Still, it's enough that a wizard should be careful.

(*) If you ignore the Rules Compendium AMF rules changes, this is easy: just use an item granting AMF of which there are at least 3. With the Rules Compendium, you need an ally that confers Selective[you] AMF via a ring of spell storing or similar.
Monk doesn't seem to contribute very much there. Couldn't you just be a commoner with all that stuff?

[Anthrowhale]

Monk doesn't seem to contribute very much there. Couldn't you just be a commoner with all that stuff?

Yes? But it fits the Monk theme better than a commoner and there are some real synergies (good saves, many more attacks, fast movement) with incorporeal.

[Karl Aegis]

Incorporeal creatures wink out of existence inside an anti-magic field, so I guess you win forever by being untouchable. It doesn't make you better than anything, however.

[Anthrowhale]

Incorporeal creatures wink out of existence inside an anti-magic field, so I guess you win forever by being untouchable. It doesn't make you better than anything, however.

Selective[you] AMF cures that.

[Afgncaap5]

Fist of Zuoken is definitely worth a look. Against your typical "First party published end of module wizard boss" a well built Fist of Zuoken will be able to do quite nicely, I think.

If you want something that can compete against typical players ("Typical" in this case meaning "Someone who doesn't regularly go onto the Internet to learn tips and tricks for optimization"), then it should probably let you stand with wizards, though they'll likely still be outpacing you in terms of effect if not in terms of workday output. Still, your psionics should definitely help to mitigate that.

If you want the "Roleplaying Is King!" answer, there's nothing preventing you from playing a Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion, Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, Warlock, or whatever with a fully maxed out skill in Profession (Monk). This is less-than-satisfying for a number of potential reasons, but might be "good enough" for some players.

If you want something that sort of mechanically/fluff-wise splits the difference between Fist of Zuoken and just a Caster who has Profession (Monk), you could always backport Spheres of Power to 3.5, pick one of their classes (Elementalist (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/elementalist) and Symbiat (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/symbiat) in particular giving you two different flavors of magical monk, though any one of the classes would do) and then taking the Monastic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc18) casting tradition. This tradition has a lot of drawbacks that center around making certain kinds of magic only work at a range of Touch or Personal, so while it's a bummer that you can't shoot a blast of fire across the battlefield or cast Haste on all your allies, you're still able to punch enemies with your Firefist technique and use your personal training to will yourself into a Hasted state. This won't work for a GM who opposes 3rd party stuff and Pathfinder stuff in a 3.5 game (I myself only allow players to use SoP material after I've made some edits to it to get it more in line with 3.5's power level) but for a GM with an open mind you can make something a little more mechanically viable that's still not what I'd call cheesy.

[Rhyltran]

Fist of Zuoken is definitely worth a look. Against your typical "First party published end of module wizard boss" a well built Fist of Zuoken will be able to do quite nicely, I think.

If you want something that can compete against typical players ("Typical" in this case meaning "Someone who doesn't regularly go onto the Internet to learn tips and tricks for optimization"), then it should probably let you stand with wizards, though they'll likely still be outpacing you in terms of effect if not in terms of workday output. Still, your psionics should definitely help to mitigate that.


The above is why when people want an effective monk I immediately turn to psionic fist/fist of zuoken and offer advice on how to build it. It's a great combination that really allows you to play an effective monk that can interact, function, and participate in a group that has a few of the big boys while still contributing. Another fun combo (though far less versatile) is Monk/Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior. Far more straight forward but can contribute to "damage" fairly effectively.

[Afgncaap5]

Another fun combo (though far less versatile) is Monk/Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior. Far more straight forward but can contribute to "damage" fairly effectively.

Methinks I've found my next group of Eldeen Reaches warriors...

[Gruftzwerg]

There was a thread from a very long time ago that was trying to figure out, just theoretically, what a melee class would need to pose a credible threat to a wizard. I don't think it was Monk-specific, but melee in general. My google-fu is failing me to find the original thread, but it was a pretty long list. Obvious things like being able to survive a first strike, but also:

- ability to overcome (or just say no to) crafted contingent spells
- ability to avoid detection from divinations (i.e. Wizard can't phone a friend to ask who's a threat to him), in particular scrying (the wizard doesn't just have to wait until you're asleep to teleport in and murder you)
- ability to actually get to and hit the wizard (method of seeing invisibility, ignoring miss chance, ignoring mirror images, method of flight)
- ability to prevent the wizard from fleeing and/or a way to follow him home to his pocket dimension

Pretty much this. If the intention is a Monk build for a 1on1 fight, you need to cover all this with either a gish build (relying on the same spell tactics) or with UMD. This will consume all your resources and will leave with an odd build that might have trouble with mundane monster encounters (due to lack of investment into raw combat power).

But if the intention is to be of use in a group full of T1-3 builds that goes against a Wizard, that is a much simpler task. You can rely on your groups caster to shut down some of the enemies tricks (e.g. Dimensional Anchor against Teleport/Escape tactics) while you invest in some magical defenses (against Scrying/Divination so that your group caster doesn't need to keep it up 24/7, Ring of Nine Lifes: 1/day you can burn a charge to turn a failed save into a success; Death Ward/Soulfire Bracers of Armor) and refine your combat skills (burst dmg, movement, swift/immediate movement, deception & perception. (As already said, my monk/warlock gish has some of this covered in his magic item description. The build has high dmg due to pounce on every turn and almost any situation thanks to Stagger. A permanent x4 multiplier + Beast Strike, which doubles your unarmed strike damage and adds Eldritch Blast on top, skyrockets the dmg output of the build. Several layers of vision deception & perception are also part of the build)

But this all assumes a high optimized caster in the first place. But if your enemy casters are on a lvl with first party adventure casters (even bosses), you'll have to expect/deal with a lot less dirty tricks and many more builds become possible to 1on1 a caster. But that's just because you optimized harder than the NPC wizard.

[Bohandas]

You nedd to constantly be in some environment such that all spellcasting requires a high DC concentration check

[ben-zayb]

You nedd to constantly be in some environment such that all spellcasting requires a high DC concentration check

So get Jedipotter as a DM or something?

[Arbane]

So get Jedipotter as a DM or something?

That depends. Can the monk beat Orcus?

[shaikujin]

Yes, there are monk builds within ECL 20 which can beat Orcus. (That do not require customized magic items, partially charged wands, martial monk qualifying epic feats at level 1, pazuzu).

Yes, there are ways to force skill checks for spellcasting (planar bubble to a plane which has impeded spellcasting). Can also be upgraded to dead magic field for all magic/su/divine salient effects which do not meet a set of conditions. While not shutting down the planar bubble.

I have done such a build on these very forums.
The thing is, if I am also the one building a similarly optimized full caster to use the same tricks, the full caster will be more powerful than the monk.

[Calthropstu]

It can be done with pathfinder mythic rules.
You must :
Go before the wizard
Pop a mythic point to get an extra standard action.
Pop a mythic point to gain an extra free move.
Pop a mythic point to gain an extra attack action.
Close with the wizard with the free movement.
Use the free attack to grapple.
Use your free action to pin.
Use your normal actions to bind and gag.
Helpless wizard.

[Afgncaap5]

But this all assumes a high optimized caster in the first place. But if your enemy casters are on a lvl with first party adventure casters (even bosses), you'll have to expect/deal with a lot less dirty tricks and many more builds become possible to 1on1 a caster. But that's just because you optimized harder than the NPC wizard.

Honestly, I kinda wish that this was an assumed baseline for a lot of the questions I see online. I don't really wanna use PunPun or Omniscificers as measuring sticks so much as I wanna use Harry Dresden, Harry Potter, Mustrum Ridcully, and the Wizard of Frobozz as measuring sticks. Sadly, that's not the environment of the Internet most of the time.

[Zanos]

That depends. Can the monk beat Orcus?
Winning == Cheating.


Honestly, I kinda wish that this was an assumed baseline for a lot of the questions I see online. I don't really wanna use PunPun or Omniscificers as measuring sticks so much as I wanna use Harry Dresden, Harry Potter, Mustrum Ridcully, and the Wizard of Frobozz as measuring sticks. Sadly, that's not the environment of the Internet most of the time.
Using characters from other media as measuring sticks for whether or not a character is good is going to leave you sorely disappointed because it often maps very poorly on D&D despite lack of trying. A powerful D&D wizard is almost nothing like Gandalf or Dumbledore, other than probably being old and eccentric.

Your actual measuring stick should be encounters. And by that metric monk usually doesn't hold up, even to the other weak PHB classes.

[JNAProductions]

It can be done with pathfinder mythic rules.
You must :
Go before the wizard
Pop a mythic point to get an extra standard action.
Pop a mythic point to gain an extra free move.
Pop a mythic point to gain an extra attack action.
Close with the wizard with the free movement.
Use the free attack to grapple.
Use your free action to pin.
Use your normal actions to bind and gag.
Helpless wizard.

And then the wizard casts a still, silent spell with eschew materials. :P

[Calthropstu]

And then the wizard casts a still, silent spell with eschew materials. :P

Depends on whether the party can act... because helpless = coup de grace.

[JNAProductions]

Oh, wait-your plan relies on grappling.

Freedom Of Movement.

[Calthropstu]

Oh, wait-your plan relies on grappling.

Freedom Of Movement.

Not a wizard spell.
Can be placed on an item, but can also be dealt with.

[JNAProductions]

Not a wizard spell.
Can be placed on an item, but can also be dealt with.

It's considered a nigh-essential buff. The still silent spell was a joke-most wizards won't have that.

Most WILL have Freedom of Movement.

[Afgncaap5]

Using characters from other media as measuring sticks for whether or not a character is good is going to leave you sorely disappointed because it often maps very poorly on D&D despite lack of trying. A powerful D&D wizard is almost nothing like Gandalf or Dumbledore, other than probably being old and eccentric.

Oh, certainly. I'm not really trying to map fictional characters to powerful D&D wizards, I'm just lamenting the fact that "powerful D&D wizard" often translates to infinite loops involving resetting traps, ice assassins, and Gate spells more than it translates to having an awesome familiar, whipping up some alchemical or astrological solutions on the fly, or having the bushiest eyebrows for peering at people properly.

They're not incompatible, of course, a wizard can have all those things quite easily. I just feel like the cart gets put before the horse a lot.

[Fizban]

A powerful D&D wizard is almost nothing like Gandalf or Dumbledore, other than probably being old and eccentric.
Though Dresden does have his own RPG.

[Calthropstu]

It's considered a nigh-essential buff. The still silent spell was a joke-most wizards won't have that.

Most WILL have Freedom of Movement.

And most characters facing spellcasters WILL have an answer. A preemptive dispel, a shatter spell hitting the ring, a steal maneuver etc.

[RoboEmperor]

Non-sarcastic response.

1. Max out use magic device
2. Beat the wizard with scrolls.

To make money to buy those scrolls, use scrolls for gold loops.

Alternatively

1. Buy a lawful evil candle of invocation
2. wish loop until you're stronger.

[Zanos]

You can't shatter magic items.

[Calthropstu]

You can't shatter magic items.

Fine, disintigrate then. The number of ways to remove that freedom of movement item is quite large, and most are rather simple to pull off.

[Fizban]

It's actually quite easy to protect magic items: just wear something on top of it. If the ring is under a glove, no line of effect. You can easily shield rings, gloves, bracelets, anklets, headbands, belts, shirts are hidden by default, all sorts of stuff. A Psychoactive Skin covers literally everything except your weapon and eye/breathing holes if you want it to.

[Zanos]

Fine, disintigrate then. The number of ways to remove that freedom of movement item is quite large, and most are rather simple to pull off.
The item uses the wearers save if they're better and has the same AC as the wearer, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't just disintegrate them if you think you can reliably make them fail that save.

[Calthropstu]

The item uses the wearers save if they're better and has the same AC as the wearer, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't just disintegrate them if you think you can reliably make them fail that save.

Disintigrate will auto destroy the ring as long as it hits. There is no fort save for items, it "destroys up to 10 cubic feet of nonliving material." Ring is gone.

As for the skin thing, few people wear such.

[Zanos]

Disintigrate will auto destroy the ring as long as it hits. There is no fort save for items, it "destroys up to 10 cubic feet of nonliving material." Ring is gone.

As for the skin thing, few people wear such.
"A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage."

Reading the spell helps sometimes. Although rings probably have less than 5d6 HP.

And yeah, most people wear rings under their gloves.

[Eldariel]

Fine, disintigrate then. The number of ways to remove that freedom of movement item is quite large, and most are rather simple to pull off.

The Monk himself lacks the actions to accomplish that easily though. Thus he'd need help. And that still doesn't deal with the possible underlings nor Contingencies (at least two, one on familiar and one personal). Note that e.g. a Zombie attacking grappling Monk's flatfooted back can do vast damage indeed.

And of course, he needs to find the Wizard and win Initiative (tricky vs. Foresight Diviner for instance). Wizard has all the strategic mobility generally giving him the choice of battlefield and time, and even tactically, Phantom Steed is amazing.

[The_Jette]

Has this changed from "How to make a Monk>Wizard?" to "How can a Monk defeat a Wizard in combat?" Because that's what it seems to be. Honestly, there's no way to make a Monk better than a Wizard. I love Monks, and love playing them. But, when it comes down to potential fixes for potential problems, the Wizard has it all. Monks have a pretty good choice of skills, and aren't overly reliant on equipment because of its class abilities. However, a level 20 Monk with no equipment isn't going to be as useful as a level 20 Wizard with no equipment, unless he doesn't have any of his spells memorized. Even then, Spell Mastery lets him overcome that to a certain extent. The Wizard can create a separate plane of existence. A Monk... doesn't take age penalties. Who uses those anyways?
Yes, it's possible to say that X build of Monk can defeat Y build of Wizard given Z circumstances. And, no, you'll never have the same possibilities playing a Monk as you will a Wizard. In the end, play what you have fun playing. Will my Monk ever be able to point his finger at something and make them turn to dust? Nope. But, he once defeated two fleets of Spelljammers that were threatening Toreil, and managed to damage a Scro empire so much that an entire fleet of ships were sent out with the express purpose of hunting him and his crew down and getting rid of them. He faced a spell-wolf in single combat and won. And, he was gifted with a relic of Ilmater as proof of his devotion. So, I can honestly say, I would not have had more fun playing a Wizard than I did as a Monk.

[Zanos]

Has this changed from "How to make a Monk>Wizard?" " to "How can a Monk defeat a Wizard in combat?"
That's what the thread was always about.

I'm looking for a way to make a Monk that not only can stay competent with casters such as Wizards but can actually beat them.
From the very first line of the very first post.

You don't have to defend that it's possible to have fun playing a monk, nobody is going to argue against that.

[The_Jette]

That's what the thread was always about.

From the very first line of the very first post.

You don't have to defend that it's possible to have fun playing a monk, nobody is going to argue against that.

It seemed to me that he was asking about how to build a monk to be as good as or better than a wizard, not necessarily able to defeat him in single combat. Those kinds of threads go round and round with no end. And, my point was that a "good character" is a relative term. If you don't have fun with it, it's not a good character, even if it can kill a group of advanced Baalor in a single round of combat.

[Calthropstu]

Has this changed from "How to make a Monk>Wizard?" to "How can a Monk defeat a Wizard in combat?" Because that's what it seems to be. Honestly, there's no way to make a Monk better than a Wizard. I love Monks, and love playing them. But, when it comes down to potential fixes for potential problems, the Wizard has it all. Monks have a pretty good choice of skills, and aren't overly reliant on equipment because of its class abilities. However, a level 20 Monk with no equipment isn't going to be as useful as a level 20 Wizard with no equipment, unless he doesn't have any of his spells memorized. Even then, Spell Mastery lets him overcome that to a certain extent. The Wizard can create a separate plane of existence. A Monk... doesn't take age penalties. Who uses those anyways?
Yes, it's possible to say that X build of Monk can defeat Y build of Wizard given Z circumstances. And, no, you'll never have the same possibilities playing a Monk as you will a Wizard. In the end, play what you have fun playing. Will my Monk ever be able to point his finger at something and make them turn to dust? Nope. But, he once defeated two fleets of Spelljammers that were threatening Toreil, and managed to damage a Scro empire so much that an entire fleet of ships were sent out with the express purpose of hunting him and his crew down and getting rid of them. He faced a spell-wolf in single combat and won. And, he was gifted with a relic of Ilmater as proof of his devotion. So, I can honestly say, I would not have had more fun playing a Wizard than I did as a Monk.

A reasonable assertion I suppose. "better" is always relative of course but yes, until you get into doing massive amounts of money the number of options a wizard has far outweighs the number a monk has.

[mabriss lethe]

And to lay the "arbitrarily high op/prepared for anything " caster myth to rest here. Yes, there are several spells that are tailored made for specific types of encounters, and nasty bits lurking in splat books. Those aren't the spells that the monk needs to worry about. All the wizard would need is a few of the common catch-all spells that are pretty useful no matter what you face. Any of the polymorph line, a summon monster spell. Invisibility. Some bfc of one sort or another. A blast spell or two. Even a mediocre wizard will have one or two "swiss army spells" at their disposal and that would be more than enough to outshine or flat out murder a monk.