Combat in a Time Loop

[HisDirkness]

I have an idea for a battle where an npc, who's been messing with time magic, tries to time travel the group out of a particularly dangerous battle. I'm thinking it doesn't work as he intended and instead he creates a time loop for everyone in the battle.

I could use some help fleshing out this concept. I'm thinking that time resets ever 2 or 3 rounds, something like that. I want it to be frequent enough that it has a large impact on the battle, but doesn't happen so frequently that the players aren't able to get anything done before they're reset.

I think that the party is aware that they are in a loop and remembers the previous loops, but I'm hazy on whether or not the enemies should. Also, I'm not sure what the win condition in this would be. What would it take to break the loop?

At this point, the idea is very bare bones, but I wanted to see if anyone has tried something like this before and might have some good tips or things that sound like a good idea, but in practice are a huge mess.

If this isn't enough information, let me know I'll clarify.

Let me know, I appreciate any tips or pointers. Thanks in advance.

[Finback]

The NPC appears in front of the PC, with the time McGuffin. He starts the fight, for whatever reason, and at the end of the third round, he says, "this isn't how it's meant to go!" and uses the McGuffin.

and reappears in front of the PCs, stats back to full, and the entire sequence begins again. The PCs may not be in the loop themselves (or else they don't lose spell slots, etc) but it may take them a while to realise there IS a loop, and they are somehow tied to it. Hell, they could even run away, and the NPC still manifests in front of them (because wizards).

the only way to break it, is to disable the McGuffin itself, be it an amulet, a wand, or a piece of armour. So until they figure that part, the cycle continues.

(You can then also weird it up by having the PCs encounter the NPC as they design/work on the McGuffin; you can easily get around them "destroying it before they can use it!" by having the NPC just build it again later; or maybe the PCs destroy a simple device that wouldn't work, so the NPC gets mad, and makes it their quest to find a working McGuffin and get vengeance..

[HisDirkness]

I didn't mention that the npc they are with is on their side. That's my fault, sorry. The idea I have is that they are fighting something far stronger than them, and this npc, their companion, tries to time travel their way out.

[Finback]

I didn't mention that the npc they are with is on their side. That's my fault, sorry. The idea I have is that they are fighting something far stronger than them, and this npc, their companion, tries to time travel their way out.

OK, let's say you have them fight, say, a black dragon. The dragon is in the process of biting the time traveller when they use the McGuffin - maybe it is *damaged* by the dragon, which is what causes the backtrack. So every time they reappear, the dragon is at full health - full use of breath weapon, etc. Now, the players *know* it will open with a breath weapon attack, so the might try to avoid being hit. But how long can they keep trying before they get tired/run out of defensive tricks? Hence the need to focus on the McGuffin itself.

Alternate idea:

Maybe the NPC they're fighting is the NPC in the future, who is trying to stop them - meaning if they're successful in stopping the future-NPC, then they have to wonder what happens to the current-NPC, and how that NPC handles it. "Huh, so I end up hating you guys and trying to kill you?" Now watch your PCs begin to alter their behaviour so as to not give the current-NPC a reason to go evil - which could be what DOES turn them evil! "YOU NEVER TREATED ME HONESTLY, YOU WERE ALWAYS BEING SO CAREFUL NOT TO UPSET ME INSTEAD OF TREATING ME LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN(elf/orc/gnome/three-quarter badger)!"

The best thing about time travel is the worst thing about time travel - it is wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.

[Jallorn]

This sounds to me like a good opportunity for really overpowered enemy. I also think the time loop should have a random factor to it. Specifically, you should determine when it resets with a die roll or something like that. Perhaps also give the players some way to predict how long they have before reset.

[nickl_2000]

You could also do a Live, Die, Repeat (Edge of Tomorrow) thing. Where the PCs are fighting someone incredibly overpowered and when they die off they start all over.

It could get very old very quickly though.

[Spiritchaser]

The enemy is horribly overpowered, and has a hidden ability the PCs don't know about, or perhaps is a caster with unknown spells prepared

The NPC indicates that his thingamajig should have enough juice to reset time at least (some small numbe) of times. Let the PCs fight and die, until the lat pc standing falls, then reset.

Let the PCs evolve tactics as the learn the foe's powers, and improve performance each time by knowing where to stand, what to do... Even consider granting advantage/dissadvantage as long as the combat follows the exact script it has before.

NPC sits in a time bubble and watches, reseting at the last moment.

After the last reset, the widget explodes in a brilliant flash and the NPC helps in the last chance in the fight after a few rounds when he can see again

[Vogie]

Dormammu, I'm here to bargain!

A couple of ideas that you could incorporate into an unintentional time loop fight

Archon - The enemy has low health but a lot of bizarre resistances, so the first handful of iterations of attacks are useless, until the PCs find the right combination to kill them
Save the Scientist - the npc is killed fairly quickly after setting off the loop, but is brought back each time the loop restarts. The PCs have to stop him from dying within the first couple of rounds so they can turn the device off
Law of Conservation of Armor - due to the temporal energies of the loop, even though health and spell slots reset each loop, the BBEG's armor is slowly getting worn down. The PCs can focus their efforts on a single area to wear it down over time.
Law of Conservation of XP - The BBEG is literally too hard for them to defeat, so they fight the other mobs in the room over and over, gaining enough XP to level up, and then being able to defeat it.
Bravely Default - The PCs gain, for this encounter only, the ability to shift around their attacks between loops. A fighter could, for example, Strike with 4 rounds worth of Damage, but then have no action for the next 3 loops; alternatively, they could sacrifice actions in earlier loop-rounds to empower an attack later on.
Awesomeness by Analysis - Neither the enemy nor the PCs are aware of the time loop, only the players. The Enemy will always make the same powerful attacks in the same manner, but with increasing disadvantage; the Players can choose different attacks/abilities/spells each loop or could use the same attacks as before, but with increasing advantages.
Everything Counts in Large Amounts - Build an enemy isn't *that* powerful by normal metrics - large cooldown/refresh times on their abilities, average to lower than normal health. However, each time the loop happens, said enemy's abilities are refreshed and the health returned. The game isn't to defeat them in this instance, but rather to survive a set number of time loops before the loops stop, and the PCs can make the damage stick. You could even use this to break up a fight by making the time loop section more like a skill challenge than a normal fight.

[HisDirkness]

Dormammu,
Everything Counts in Large Amounts - Build an enemy isn't *that* powerful by normal metrics - large cooldown/refresh times on their abilities, average to lower than normal health. However, each time the loop happens, said enemy's abilities are refreshed and the health returned. The game isn't to defeat them in this instance, but rather to survive a set number of time loops before the loops stop, and the PCs can make the damage stick. You could even use this to break up a fight by making the time loop section more like a skill challenge than a normal fight.
[/LIST]

The more I think about this, the more I feel this is the right way to go. Without getting into too much detail, the game is centered around time travel, they were sent back to fix a wrong (one time time travel, no jumping back and forth) and the npc doing to time manipulation in this battle is the younger version of the guy that sent them back, trying to figure out time magic for the first time (he had researched it, but it was all theoretical). They are also in an ice cavern looking for a large temporal shift (another npc they know can sense magical disturbances). The temporal shift is the guy that sent them back, who was attacked in the future and traveled back to warn them. He's old and weak and time travel took a tole on him and he's dying. He's in the cavern they're about to enter, but before they find him, I'm planning this crazy, wild battle.

They don't know any of that. After hearing what you guys have to say, I'm thinking maybe the enemy is a young white dragon, or adult white dragon, depending on how the time loop rules end up.

I'm thinking that it's a "survive X-many rounds" type thing, and that when they finally beat the puzzle of stopping the loop, the dragon takes off, confused about what the heck just happened.

Still a tad bit unsure as to what the mechanism would be to end the time loop. The npc that cause it is a wizard, so I thought about just designating a number of round that have to survive and protect the wizard while he flips through his notes about this magic trying to figure it out. Is that too easy? I would like to make the resolution have a bit more player input that "JUST LIVE!!!".

Thoughts?

By the way, thanks for all the advice thus far. I've never DM'd before and I may have gotten to ambitious right out the gate.

[Arcangel4774]

You could have the enemies be strong in the fight that this happens. And have them and pcs regain hp and all when it lopps, unless they die. That way they kill enemies and time reset so there are less enemies.

[Finback]

They don't know any of that. After hearing what you guys have to say, I'm thinking maybe the enemy is a young white dragon, or adult white dragon, depending on how the time loop rules end up.


That reminds me of something I planned, but never got to put into practise as the group fell apart.

PCs encounter a dracolich, who stops, thinks, and screams, "YOU! YOU ARE THE ONES THAT DID THIS TO ME!" and attacks.

And then several game-months later, they go back in time, and encounter a young dragon, who they are present for when it dies (either their fault, or it merely thinks they are).

so basically, they create their own BBEG.

[CaptainSarathai]

DO NOT RANDOMLY RESET THE LOOP!
I repeat: do not make it random.
This will screw the players into thinking that it's some kind of teleportation effect or such.

Really, a key to this encounter will be using the grid, if you aren't already. Resetting the game state needs to be very visual.

Also, account for very short player memories. A single turn takes quite a while to get through at most tables, and most people won't pay attention.
The time loop should be very short. One turn is 6 seconds in game, but I'd actually do a 12 second time loop.

--The SetUp--
Do your fight normally, until the wizard casts his spell and initiates the time-loop. The wizard will not initiates the loop until an enemy creature has died, ideally. This makes the loop more obvious later.

When the loop starts, stop the game.
Give the players a moment to look at the board, while you describe what the wizard is doing, setting up a quick time-hop to escape the fight, etc.

As you are describing the action, be marking down the location of the party and enemies on graph paper.

Give the party 2 more turns while the wizard finishes up his spell.
Once the spell is finished, have something beyond the party's control ruin the spell. A stray arrow from an enemy hits the wizard, whatever. Something obvious and visually descriptive.

Reset the game to 2 turns prior. Describe a sort of odd feeling, wooshing noise, de-ja-vu sort of effect. Specifically de-ja-vu, as this plants the idea of "we've done this before"

Let the party play 2 turns, with the spell "charging" again. Then reset the game.
I would do this 2-3 times, until the party realizes that they are in a time-loop and that it is exactly 2 turns long.

Once the party realizes that they are in a loop, you can start mucking about. Since the loop is short (2 turns) the party should be able to judge where the loop will kick them. Now you can introduce a trigger. Have the Wizard finally do something to break the spell, stalling the loop for a moment. However, any time he takes damage (or some other condition is met) the loop happens, and resets the game to 2 turns prior.

At this point, the party should identify the trigger. Now the situation becomes a battle in which the party is trying to defeat the encounter without triggering the time loop.
---

It will be important to keep everything very simple here. Simple loop, simple trigger, etc.
It will also need to be a fairly easy encounter. I would carry player (and possibly the wizard) damage through the time loop, so that the players are still pressured. I would not reset "to hit" rolls though, for the enemy mooks. This give the players incentive to attempt to "change the past" in the loop if someone gets critted by a skeleton or something. That skeleton will still Crit even if the loop resets, so next time the player needs to find a way to avoid that attack.

For this reason, I would generate and write down several rolls in advance, on paper. As they come up, note down what they were used for and then mark the turn divisions so that you can reuse them. For extra effect, keep rolling "fake" dice behind the screen.
--

In fact, DMimg will really set the scene here, and this is a chance to be extremely creative and do some "above table" roleplay. Repeat yourself in the loop. Make a point to repeat a certain action ("accidentally" dropping a pen or something) or saying the same thing for the attacks,
"The goblin swings his axe.
/Roll
Tom, does a 17 hit you?"
(next loop)
"The goblin swings his axe.
/Roll
Tom, does a 17 hit you?"
Initially, Tom might wonder why you keep asking if a 17 hits him, since you obviously already know the answer. But a perceptive player might catch on that not only are their game pieces going through the loop, but you - the actual DM in front of them - are looping as well.
Moments like that can really stand out to players and become the kinds of stories that D&D is made for.

[zeek0]

Time travel is always cool. Here's some things to think about:
Is time re-writable (Back to the Future), or is the timeline inviolable (Harry Potter)? When a time shift occurs, who is reset? Who remembers the events of the previous loop?

I would make time re-writable. I would have your wizard with the MacGuffin and the players remember the previous loop, but not enemies. I would make the loop last 3 rounds - giving players enough time to see the consequences of their actions (also, 3 is a cool number).

Also, I would make the MacGuffin activate before the fact (drawing circumstances back to a point) instead of after the fact (rewinding time). This makes it a tactical 'We might need to try this a few times' decision, not an 'OH CRAP THARGOR DIED, DO THE TIME THING' button. That way, when you turn the MacGuffin off, it's for real. Also, you can't fish for crits.

This doesn't give you much more firepower, but it does let you set up your forces optimally for three rounds. Also, you get the knowledge of previous rounds, like the answer to a puzzle or the sequence for picking a lock.

I would set a limit to the number of loops that can be done, and and cool-down on the ability (1/day).

Seems like a... 5th level spell? I'm not sure. Maybe I'll write it up.